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In my last post, I posted some of the scriptures that I believe prove that once we are saved, our salvation is secure because it is based on the promises of God, not on our behavior. In this post I will explore some of the scriptures that indicate that you can lose your salvation. One of the interesting things is that the bible does not talk about being saved in the Old Testament in the same sense as it does in the New Testament. Whenever the bible uses the word saved in the Old Testament it is talking about their physical life being saved. But as we often find, what is external and physical in the Old Testament becomes internal and spiritual in the New. While the Old Testament doesn't really talk about salvation, it does talk about God expectation of obedience to the Law for the Children of Israel. If you did not obey the Law, or failed to bring a suitable sacrifice when you did sin, then you were cut off from the Children of Israel, and were forbidden to partake of the blessings of Israel. So are there scriptures in the New Testament that seem to indicate that you can lose your salvation? Yes there are, and ironically enough, Jesus talked more about losing your salvation than any other person in the New Testament. Let's look a just a few examples.... Matt 24:13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. Also let's consider the parable of the 10 virgins. Because of space, I won't type the entire parable, but just the highlights.... All 10 virgins start with oil in their lamps. All ten virgins fall sleep. When the call came in that the Bridegroom was coming, the five wise virgins, who maintained their supply of oil were allowed to enter the wedding feast. The five foolish, who let their supply of oil run out was not allowed to enter the wedding feast. There are some others but these two are the two strongest arguments that is always used to support the idea that you can lose your salvation. So let's take a closer look at both of these. Matt 24 is often referred to as the little apocalypse, since it gives such a good summary of the Book of Revelations. Almost the entire chapter is Jesus' reply to his disciples questions concerning the endtime, his second coming, and the end of the age. We start in verse 4-8 with the birth pains, then increase in lawlessness, and starting at verse 15 it talks about the abomination of desolation. When happens in the middle of the tribulation. Then we get to the Second Coming of Christ. Right in the middle of all this we have that little verse that states he who endures until the end shall be saved. Based on my first post, I think everyone knows that I believe that during this current age, once a person is saved, their salvation is secure, and I believe that the evidence of this is very very strong. But Jesus says here that only he who endures until the end will be saved. This shows a great fundamental shift. As great a fundamental shift as when we moved from the Age of Law to the Age of Grace. The entire context of Matt 24 is the Tribulation period up until the Second coming. Therefore it shows that during the Tribulation period, the Age of Grace, and the promise of eternal security is not in effect. Therefore, since we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, ( rapture) then the only way that all these verses can be true is that the day of redemption ( the rapture ) happens before the Tribulation period, and this is why the Saints must endure until the end to be saved. The very next chapter Matt 25 starts out with the parable of the 10 virgins. There are a lot of commentaries out there that suggest that this parable is about the church. I disagree. Again for the same reasons as above. Matt 24 and 25 are about the time of the tribulation. The virgins are not the bride, we would call them bridesmaids today. These are the tribulation saints. In fact the one thing that no one should question is the timing of this parable, it is the second coming. Yes, I agree that all 10 virgins had oil to start with, they were all 'saved' but the wise maintained their oil, while the foolish did not. This parable is about the fundamental shift in the conditions of salvation during the tribulation period vs the conditions of salvation during the church age. Therefore the church age must come to a close ( day of redemption ) before this parable takes place ( the Tribulation preceeding the second coming of Jesus ) As Iron sharpens Iron, Joshua David

I guess I have a different perception to many as to what church is. Sunday services are a part of church, but they are not all of church. We meet on a regular basis, just as friends might, some planned, many not. It's like family, centered around a love of Jesus. For instance this week: today a spontaneous get together of some of the women for my wife's birthday, tonight a prayer meeting, tomorrow night a leaders meeting and a meal, Thursday night a barbecue that we arranged at church last Sunday, just because we want to hang out together. Saturday, someone may phone and say let's have coffee. Like I said, church is so much more than a Sunday service.

Thing is, when you speak of how Babylon is used in Revelation, to you it's geographical. But that's not how Christ used it in Revelation. He instead used it as a 'symbol', like the symbols of Sodom and Egypt in Rev.11:8 to point to Jerusalem in a fallen state. What symbolic Babylon represents is what will be utterly destroyed forever at His coming involving the Antichrist's false idol worship there in Jerusalem, and it will include destruction of the new temple the Jews build in our day for the Antichrist to sit in. Jesus won't have any use for that man-made temple built by the Jews in our near future after Antichrist has sit in it exalting himself as God. Yet Where Christ walks, that is Holy Ground, Where He sits, that is Holy. Christ can make the unholy, Holy in one day, in one moment of time. In Christ Montana Marv

I am in the same situation, sort of. The request has not come, but the expectation is still there. To be honest, if you attend, you are, in a way, agreeing to the marriage. Personally, I would not attend. The person in my life is my daughter, and though I will always love her, I cannot not support her in her bad decisions. To me, the questions is, do I stand for God or do I stand for choice.

It's interesting because, "Church" isn't a translation of ekklessia. Of course it is, the fact that we translate ἐκκλησία as church other 110 in the NT demonstrates the fallacy of this type of reasoning. The term "church" is an English word that is used in the English speaking world to identify a concept that in Greek used the word ἐκκλησία and in Hebrew used the word עֵדָה that is how translation works - you take a word from the go to language that has the closest possible meaning to the term used in the original language. The two words do not have to have any etymological link, they just need to have semantic overlap in their respective languages. I am sorry but that is not the case. This what the on-line etymological dictionary has to say about the noun 'church' church (n.) Old English cirice, circe "church, public place of worship; Christians collectively," from Proto-Germanic *kirika (cognates: Old Saxon kirika, Old Norse kirkja, Old Frisianzerke, Middle Dutch kerke, Dutch kerk, Old High German kirihha, German Kirche), probably [see note in OED] from Greek kyriake (oikia), kyriakon doma "Lord's (house)," from kyrios "ruler, lord," from PIE root *keue- "to swell" ("swollen," hence "strong, powerful"); see cumulus. Phonetic spelling from c.1200, established by 16c. For vowel evolution, see bury. As an adjective from 1570s. Greek kyriakon (adj.) "of the Lord" was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia orbasilike. An example of the direct Greek-to-Germanic progress of many Christian words, via the Goths; it probably was used by West Germanic people in their pre-Christian period. Or if you wonder about the credibility of an on-line source what about the MW Collegiate dict. (11th edition) 1church \ˈchərch\ noun [Middle English chirche, from Old English cirice, ultimately from Late Greek kyriakon, from Greek, neuter of kyriakos of the lord, from kyrios lord, master; akin to Sanskrit śūra hero, warrior] before 12th century [Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc.] No, and I am not surprised However, when we consider that 9unless i have missed it) you haven't given me a definition of the church as I asked, and also looking at the standards by which you have rejected what I have to say like the fallacy and the error highlighted above, and the fact that you have skimmed over so much of the case I have presented without much in the way of meaningful answers then can you be surprised that your words don't impress me much either. So, that puts us at an impasse my friend, and as I am not one for useless disputations maybe we should leave our discussion where it is for the time being

Thanks Joe, In your quote from Joel we see the unfailing love of God towards Israel, and Jerusalem only becomes holy when God dwells in Zion. Beloved In Psalms We See The Holy Hill Is Our God's And Even Now As The Battle For Zion Rages Jerusalem Does Not Belong To The World Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:1-7 And So We Pray Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Psalms 122:6 Maranatha~!

First, how do you view Israel (Jews)? Second, how would you respond to this friend? God bless, GE Romans 11:28 (NASB95) 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; Romans 11:28 (KJV) 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. This is what I keep trying to tell the naysayers who refuse to believe the Bible teaches a physical Israel and a Spirit Israel. Physical Israel are the chosen / elect people of this life; this world. Spirit Israel (the Church, that is: the assembly, the great assembly {going back at least as far as Exodus 12}, or the cloud of witnesses {going back as far as according to Abel Hebrews 11} are the chosen / elect people of the after life; the heaven-earth to come. A distinction drawn as far back as: Genesis 17:11 (KJV) 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV) 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. Jeremiah 4:4 (KJV) 4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. Romans 2:28-29 (KJV) 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Galatians 6:13-16 (KJV) 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God Jeremiah 9:25-26 (KJV) 25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; 26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart. Romans 9:6 (KJV) 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all (spirit) Israel, which are of (physical) Israel:

Anyone who is concerned if they committed the unpardonable sin has not committed it. If you did, your heart would be so hard you would not even care one iota about it.

One more personal attack and I will ban the perpetrator from the thread.,

Well Bonky, the reason I ask is because I honestly do not know what I believe concerning this subject. Regardless of what is true, I personally do not see that evidence for an old earth/old universe would negate biblical teaching... and I dare say that it would certainly not negate a believer's faith, because in my eyes an old earth does not prove the bible to be false.

No man is an island in the Kingdom of God. You need other believers to build you up and sharpen you.

The Battle For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 For Zion Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. Isaiah 38:17 ~ I Have No Doubt Whatsoever That The Presidential Leadership Of The U.S.A. For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. Joel 3:1-3 Has Mostly Thrown Beloved Israel To The Heathens Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. Joel 3:9-17 And That The Legislative Branch “Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant, And Israel whom I have chosen. Thus says the Lord who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you: ‘Fear not, O Jacob My servant; And you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. For I will pour water on him who is thirsty, And floods on the dry ground; I will pour My Spirit on your descendants, And My blessing on your offspring; They will spring up among the grass Like willows by the watercourses.’ One will say, ‘I am the Lord’s’; Another will call himself by the name of Jacob; Another will write with his hand, ‘The Lord’s,’ And name himself by the name of Israel. Isaiah 44:1-5 (NKJV) Mostly Has Not “Remember these, O Jacob, And Israel, for you are My servant; I have formed you, you are My servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me! I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, And like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.” Isaiah 44:21-22 (NKJV) Because Most Bible Believers The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him: “Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it. On that day, declares the Lord, I will strike every horse with panic, and its rider with madness. But for the sake of the house of Judah I will keep my eyes open, when I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. Then the clans of Judah shall say to themselves, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem have strength through the Lord of hosts, their God.’ Zechariah 12:1-14 (ESV) Know Better Than To Poke God In His Eye For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me. Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. Zechariah 2:8-10 And Though Many US Jews May Have Turned Against Her Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. Isaiah 66:5 The God Of Abraham, Isaac And Jacob Has Not Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 31:20 ~ Beloved, Just A Thought Or Two From An Old Man Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book? Psalms 56:8 Who Weeps For His Beloved Bible Bringers Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. Ezekiel 11:17-18 And Rejoices At Their Coming And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. Ezekiel 11:19-20 Salvation And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26 ~ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe

Simply, is the old earth theory actually contradictory to biblical teaching? What are the thoughts on beliving in such things as the gap theory, and an ancient universe, as being in accordance with Christianity? Or is the belief in an ancient earth antagonistic to being a Christian? From my own studies, I have not observed that the bible explicity states how old the earth is.

To your original question...God won't tell you something that is against scripture so no...He is not telling you not to forgive someone.

1. What are the gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in the Bible? 2. What gifts has God given you? 3. How are you using this (or these) in the edification of the local Church body? The 9 spiritual power gifts are described in 1 Cor 12. They are to be used inside and outside of the church. E.G. some are necessary for evangelism. None of these are given to a BAC who does not have the baptism with the Holy Spirit (with initial evidence of tongues) ... because they are actual spiritual power gifts, and spiritual power (anointing) only comes with this baptism.