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The fall of Satan would have created a major disruption in the pre-Adamic world: ? Considering That In The Pre-Adamic World And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:26-27 There Was No Earth In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1 Nor Stars And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:15-17 This Statement Of Guessers Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 Flies Away In The Face Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2:1-3 Of God's Word Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11 I Think In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:1-5

Lucifer was in the garden of Eden (Ezk 28:13-19) as an anointed cherub. However, in Gen 3 he appeared as a serpent. Are these two Gardens of Eden the same? Something must have happened between the sinless cherub and the sinful serpent. Ezk 28:13 says, "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God..." past tense. ~ ? Eden, The Garden Of God Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:13 And A Garden God Planted In Eden And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. Genesis 2:8-10 Beloved, Do You Really Think The Mountain Of God Is The Same Place? Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Ezekiel 28:13-16

There are many churches and denominations which believe that this is not binding on churches today. But those instructions were given by God to Paul to hand down to all churches for all times and circumstances until the coming of Christ. There are sound spiritual reasons why women are not permitted to teach, preach, or usurp authority within the church (or within the home). This is not an "argument" but Bible truth. While we cannot explain how God is one yet three Divine Persons, we can certainly believe it because it is in the Bible (see Matthew 28:19).

I like the picture of a door. On the outside it says `Whosoever` & then when you go inside you read on the other side of the door, `Chosen in Him.` That is so clear to me & shows the both aspects of God`s calling - the `whosoevers` & then they are the `chosen` because of the foreknowledge of God. Marilyn.

Under what auspices or authority do we attempt to moderate the word of God to try and get it to change to fit the modern thinking of man in areas so vastly unproven as origin and evolution. God said what He did, God said how He did it and God said when He did it. and if the modern thinking of man disputes this, it is wrong. Which was the original intent of the post. To offer one explanation to the modern thinking error that the universe is billions of years old. But in the end we don't NEED an explanation. What we NEED to do is accept God at His word and realize that no matter how much "sense" modern thinking makes (a highly debatable proposition BTW) it is in error. God said, what, when, how He made creation.....and who are we to argue that?

You are claiming the entire creation account happened in the first verse of the bible, then, without explanation, it directly goes to a "Re-creation" event. If everything is being re-created, then why is verse three creating light again? Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. So we have everything made in six days, and no gap mentioned, but rather each day had a day and a night, in sequence, and each created has no "re" in front of it. Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. No gap spoken of here. But it does state "from the beginning". As in not the second beginning, or a beginning after a gap, or a beginning after a judgement. And actually, does the bible state that the fallen angels have been cast out before, or during creation? I could not find support of this, maybe I missed it, but I am wondering if it is possible the fall happened after the six days of creation. As for the "I don't believe God's creation was in vain, waste and desolation." I agree. Scripture states: "Now the earth was formless and empty," I read this as meaning creation was not finished. The words you supplied indicate something that I have not found in scripture. Where you supply "replenish", my bible states "fill". Genesis 1:28 “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it" It seems when wording is played with, imagination can run wild.

Well, it may well be that as the book of Jasher tells us, the watchers taught mankind to genetically mix different species and the dinosaurs were not part of the original creation... Just a thought.

I've been where you seem to be at now. It's extremely hard not to try to force things to happen, most times making matters worse. Prayer is good, but you must have patience and allow God to answer your prayers in His time. His time is the perfect time for you. Don't let people dissuade you from getting help for health and mental issues. In some Christian corners medicine is frowned upon. Besides prayer, you need to do your own research on any medicines a doctor prescribes. All drugs have some effects and some have interactions with other meds including vitamins. Doctors and even Phamacists can't be aware of all the interactions that are possible and have been reported. I use a site called [www.drugs.com] to check for the vitamins and prescriptions I take and I had to make adjustments because of the Type II Diabetes I came down with last year. Be careful what you take because some meds change your personality. I med I'm taking for epilepsy does that so I had to split my doses and have my doctor increase slightly my meds for anxiety. The more you know your body, the better you'll be able to stay on an even plain. And never forget the power of prayer, praise and worship of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

thank you spock, and firestormx , for your responses and devotion , to this thread, I want to tell you firestorm x, that I am with you on this , and I agree with what you sare saying, and spock you are correct in what my motives and my challenges to all that read this and want to taste the goodness of the lord, we are all placed here to be responsible and accountable for what we say and what we do , Yes we are all covered by grace ,as we have surrendered to the God and His son, that is able to save, but what we don't seem to get , is the effort of our selves , to put forth the plow and not look back, I believe we need to learn that if we are focused on Jesus and His finished work , then we need to get to work, we need to help prep the wheat and get it set , and put the hands to the plow , we need to drive through , and meet and exceed the holiness and obedience , more then the Pharisees, for we are as it is mentioned unless we exceed those that were Pharisees, then we have not attained our goal, we need to set goals, in the holiness and righteousness of work by faith , we need to study hard , and meditate on the word of God , and learn of the scriptures, for by reading the word the spirit cleanses us , and purifies us , and by abiding in Christ, we are sacrificed with Him, and so we need to act like Christ followers and not just talk a talk, we need to walk the walk , in the spirit , not to fulfill the flesh and the worldly sinful desires that we have , and deal with everyday , we need to crucify the flesh daily , by praying and staying in the word, for then and only then we have renewed our minds and bodies to reflect and share the light that is with in us , to a dying and evil dark world, like spock , said, its time to be doing and stop hanging around to hear, for the harvest is plentiful but the labors are few we need to be following God first, and in all we do , have God or Christ Jesus in our minds and first on our foreheads , and when we start acting like believers other will take noticed and see it coming from us, so I am not saying we are not saved by grace, and we work for our way to heaven , we need to have faith to produce fruit, we have been saved , and we need to share the good news with others, and having the fruits of the spirit , and many are spiritually famine, and not any good to another, so we need to be re fired up , for the world is falling away and the evil one is barreling down ,and we may not have the chance to have this freedom much longer, so we need to take full advantage and be about Gods business and His will first , and He will provide and make things happen, we are the hands and feet , how else would we reach people if we do not commit to what we have confessed , let us go out there , and believe....

Joseph, thank you for this beautifully worded heart felt post. Much appreciated. i am not Sinnersaved but I think I understand where he is coming from with his threads. jesus said, "If you love me, you will OBEY my commands." Jesus knows we have free will, and he is challenging us to use our free will to follow God's heart and commands. Of course he even qualifies it by saying, "if you love me...." in other words, don't just say you love me, SHOW me that you love me. And of course, the whole book of James is about challenging us to prove our faith through our WORKS! I think this is what Sinnersaved is trying to accomplish here. He is encouraging people to PROVE their love to God by obeying his commands. that takes us to his commands- the 10 commandments and the Mosaic Law in particular. Sinner believes both (to a lesser degree, the mosaic law) are in effect and he is challenging believers to show God the money, and oh, don't forget, there are Ten Commandments, not just nine. If I may degress a bit and be more personal, I am not at a place where I feel confident or sure enough to encourage people to don't worry about the 4th commandment, God doesn't care about any particular day, and so on. Others are at that place, fine. This is why we are here to discuss our reasons why or why not - iron sharpening iron. At least that is why I am here. Honestly, I have no desire to win anyone over to my way of thinking on issues, but rather just to share what I believe is truth, as his ambassador, in hopes that this pleases God. Anyhow, I love and appreciate both you and Sinnersaved and I'm very proud to have you both as brothers in Christ. He is Alive, spock

Every kindness is rewarded by God for the obedience to His Word and the other -most just say what and go on

Trinity is a concept beyond man's comprehensive ability a better equation would be 1 x 1 x 1 = 3 but even that fails to express the inexpressible...so we come up with peanut anaolgies which are okay, but not enough But should it surprise anyone that full nature of God would be beyond our comprehension? It really shouldn't The closest I've come to understanding trinity is understanding the nature of God's relationship with us The Father...Jehovah was God above us, out of reach except by kings priests and prophets Jesus was God among us, we could see Him, touch Him, hear him The Holy Spirit is God with in us, dwelling in our hearts with an intimate relationship guiding, leading comforting each one closer. As to women teaching and being in authority over men...it is in the bible so I must accept it. But when you take some time with this, this is actually a very limited application preaching, evangelizing, exhorting, prophesying are still very much open to women. And really....who has authority over men in the church. MAYBE a pastor.....maybe...

That is fine, but beleiving, is not something we muster up, not some conclusion we come to becuase we are smart enough to. God gives us the faith, allows us to understand, opens our eyes, give hearing to the deaf, a heart of flesh, freedom from slavery, etc, or . . . was it you who did that? Personally, I think it is about grace!

Not likely that dinosaurs were in the Ark. They all seem to have become extinct following the Flood.

I too believe in a literal interpretation of scripture which is why I belive The Gap is no longer a theory. It is thoroughly supported by scripture, Old and New Testaments, and extra-Biblical sources like Enoch and Job who predate Moses. Nothing you have written has made a dent in the Ruin-Reconstruction position. Sin came into this world through Eve to the man Adam. But sin already existed in the fallen angels. And they tempted Adam through Eve to sin on earth. This is what the Bible states. What happened before God's restoration of earth from some prior judgment, we have information available to us to get a pretty good idea. But a full understanding of it is unnecessary for someone to be a Christian. Let's not make YEC a new commandment.

What better way to learn than to consult former Muslims who are now Christians? http://answering-islam.org/Testimonies/

I agree. And I oppose the Gap theory as trying to bridge atheism with theism. And again, the spirit realm was created first. This is not to be confused with a pre-Adamic physical creation! The spirit realm was in ruins if there were any ruins. And there was no death since spirit beings cannot die. For that matter, our spirits cannot die. So there was no death before Adam and the fall and there could not have been.

from got questions.org Does it really matter whether we accept a “literal” interpretation of the Creation? The answer is “yes!” The gap theorists with their concept of the Luciferian flood believe that there was death before Adam, but the Bible declares unequivocally the opposite to be true. Romans 5:12 states that “sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,” so to accept the concept of death before the time of Adam is to destroy the foundational message of the cross: “For just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man [Jesus Christ] the many will be made righteous” (Romans 5:19). To advocate the concept of death before Adam sinned is diametrically opposed to Scripture’s explanation that death came after Adam sinned and became the necessity for man’s redemption. Genesis records a catastrophe responsible for destroying everything that had the “breath of life” in them, except for those preserved in the ark. Christ refers to the global flood in Noah’s day in Matthew 24:37-39, and Peter writes that just as there was once a worldwide judgment of mankind by water, so there will be another worldwide judgment, this time by fire (2 Peter 3). The theory of Lucifer's flood is completely without scriptural evidence and must be rejected.

It's clear from the Old and New Testaments that angels sang and were present at the original creation. Since it is also clear Satan had already fallen from his deception in the Garden of Eden, 1+1=2. I refer you to Hazard and Other One's posts for the many, many scripture references. Now a question for you as a YEC. Where is Satan (Lucifer) creation mentioned in Genesis Chapter 1? In other words, what day was he created?

How do you get a "before the beginning" when reading Genesis 1:1-2? It seems you have to add a whole lot to the story. God only gave us some information, but I don't think we can just add what we think could be.

I don't believe God's creation was in vain, waste and desolation. If you believe God created waste and desolation, we have a different opinion of God's majestic creation. We can agree to disagree on this point, since you have no proof, only an unsupported theory. The Gap, which is no longer a theory, is supported by both New and Old Testaments.

Exactly. We can take the biblical account as factual (regardless of all the opposition) or we can succumb to theories and hypotheses which have no foundation. Time and chance simply cannot create anything. Proof? Put all the ingredients of a recipe on your kitchen counter and wait for them to come together on their own to create a perfect dish. At the end of the year, they will still be sitting there.

YEC is unsupported by scripture? In the beginning God created all that there is in 7 days, including man, then recorded each generation down to Jesus birth, and you claim it is unsupported by scripture? What is unsupported is all the stuff you have added into the 7 days, that is not supported by anything other than imagination! You make a case of what "could be", which has no biblical support. How could "in the beginning" not be the beginning?

You state billions of years as a negative. God, the Ancient of Days, is not bound by time, He is the Creator of time. According to YEC, God's original creation was in darkness, without form and void as Genesis 1:2 states. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [KJV] The YEC is unsupported by scripture.

I completely disagree... the Majesty and Grace of God is fully evident is a Creation that was spoken into existance....not dragged out over a 4 billion year process let there be light....and there was light. Who else could do that but God?

Some place God within the confines of the very dimensions He created, time being one of them. Philosopher, Theologian and Christian William Lane Craig's Christian view puts God in the position of placing Himself inside of His creation in his particular cosmological view. It is necessary to support his philosophical Kalam cosmological argument for the existence of God. Such limited thinking prevents YEC from really appreciating the full majesty and grace of our sovereign God.

The key to understanding is to let God be in the driver's seat of revelation to man and to each of us individually. No backseat drivers either! 2 Peter 1:20–21 (NASB95) 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. John 16:13 (NASB95) 13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 1 John 4:1 (NASB95) 1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NASB95) 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; Acts 17:11 (NASB95) 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (NASB95) 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. Isaiah 28:9–13 (NASB95) 9 “To whom would He teach knowledge, And to whom would He interpret the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just taken from the breast? 10 “For He says, ‘Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there.’ ” 11 Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue, 12 He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,” And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen. 13 So the word of the Lord to them will be, “Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there,” That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive. Proverbs 25:2 (NASB95) 2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Moses was educated in Egyptian schools. Yet none of their teaching (medicine in particular) shows up one wit in the Torah. And in fact the most practical ancient medical practices and dietary practices come from Torah. None of them Egyptian. The Bible is proven to be of divine origin in many ways (not the least of which is fulfilled prophetic prophecy). These were just a couple more. Suffice it to say the Bible can be trusted and the account of creation and the flood etc are eyewitness testimonies as dictated to his scribe Moses.

Job 38:13–14 (AV) 13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? 14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. A seal was a signet ring or tube with a stick or string through it and rolled over clay to make the imprint. In the oldest book of the Bible we have cosmology that includes earth being suspended on nothing and rotating like a seal.

From the oldest book in the Bible: Job 26:7 (NASB95) 7 “He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.

Herein lies the problem. Your gap theory and evolution theory and old age of the earth or universe theories all have variations because the interpretation of unfounded speculation is up for grabs. And it is your textbooks that have to be rewritten every few years, not the Bible. It stays the same. And despite your claims to the interpretation of YEC, any who hold to the Bible as authoritative hold to the one interpretation. Frank Paretti did a lecture on "the chair" where he pointed out the critical need for an absolute truth on which to set the reckoning for all truth. Science is an outgrowth of Christianity btw, you should investigate this and add that to your resume. Raiders of the Lost Ark began with an arrogant statement in the first classroom scene when Harrison Ford said, "This is a class about fact, not truth. If you want truth Mr. Umptiump has a philosophy class two doors down the hall..." In reality, you cannot divorce truth from fact. And there has to be an absolute truth on which to base all truth.

The whole argument of a pre creation world, seems to rest on the idea that if there was nothing but stillness, darkness and "the waters" before the spoken word of light, it automatically means that something was destroyed before creation week. And here the imagination begins to run. But of course the waters are a bit of a puzzle. Because if they are water as we know it, then, yes what are they sitting on, - an earth, and so the pre creation earth theory looks OK. I have looked into the meaning of those waters, and while I don't think they are purely symbolic as taught by Freemasonry, I think that they are something else that exists naturally and universally. I was wondering if you would like to check that out and see if you come up with anything akin to what I think.

In my proud opinion, this is a classic exercise in playing with words, and it can be done with almost any writings. It does not prove your point, it is only a continuous repetition of an idea, in prose form. It looks pleasing to some people, I grant you that. The word "replenish" does not immediately suggest a prior destruction, but merely a condition that needs attention. The earth was designed to respond to the care of our ancestors. That does not mean it was a rubbish heap at all. Their work was to enhance and modify things for the benefit of the whole. This too does not suggest that the earth would have gone down hill without them, not at all, but rather that their work was of an entirely different nature than what we experience today. That's something we could talk about another time. None of the texts that you have quoted seem to support the theory you have put forward, either individually or contextually. And as for "scoffers in the last days..." I think it is way too early in this discussion to label anyone who opposes the idea, as that.

Having a doctrine of a pre creation flood, does not expose Satan at all. Besides the rebellion of Satan began in heaven, from where Jesus said He was cast out and fell. The only reason Satan was allowed dominion in the earth was because Adam and Eve, - the rightful representatives of earth, and for whom the earth was made, had forfeited their position through yielding to another more powerful, through sin. After the pair sinned, Satan took it upon himself to represent earth, and hence we find him standing in behalf of earthlings in heaven, arguing his case, for example about the life of Job. The earth was never made for angels, let alone Satan. The whole Bible talks about the earth made for man. It never mentions another earth, prior to creation, that was supposed to be for Satan and his angels. The angels were created to minister to all of God's creation, which included countless worlds He has made. They were not to colonize any planet. But since sin entered into our world, Satan and his hosts have been restricted to this earth, especially after the death of Christ, when he was no longer permitted to enter heaven as our representative. Christ has won the earth back, and stands as our representative. In prophetic view, before His sacrifice, Jesus declared the enemy as falling from heaven to earth like lightning. The idea of an occupation of the earth before Adam and Eve were placed there, is a pure fabrication designed by Satan to bring confusion to the unwary, and to turn minds away from relying on the simple and yet profound writings of the scriptures. If what you propose is not so plain that a child can see it, what is it?

G-Gay mate. Remember when we were doing math's at school? We had to recite our one to twelve times tables over and over again, every day. I asked to teacher why we had to do this? He replied, "Some kids get it in a few repetitions, others take weeks, some don't get it at all no matter have many times were recite the tables. And some after weeks of study still believe 1 X 1 = 11 ! LOL. Its the same with the Bible.

Romans 1:22, "professing themselves to be wise they became fools," I will post this here as well because many people sadly believe what men teach professing what they have learnt and believe to be Bible truth. Hundreds of Scriptures plainly and truthfully teach that there was in fact two great floods on this earth. The first, Lucifers flood wiped out EVERYTHING, no light and not one living thing left alive and Noahs flood, there were people left alive, Noah and his wife and his sons and their wives, there were animals left alive, an arc full, there were birds left alive, Noah released a bird, there was DAY AND NIGHT! Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. To those who say they believe only what is written in Scripture, yet deny that there was in fact two floods on this earth! Now one either believes these scriptures and accepts that there was two floods, or on must strike these hundreds of Scripture out of their bible, better still, CHUCK IT IN THE BIN, BECAUSE THE REST OF IT MUST BE LIES ALSO? Here are all the Scriptures that show a vast difference between the flood God hit the Earth with in His anger after Lucifers rebellion, and the flood of Noah. Read them, learn and believe what the Bible says and not what men say and teach. The hardest thing I have found to do is to UNLEARN OLD KNOWLEDGE, WHICH IS FALSE, AND RECIEVE NEW KNOWLDGE AND TRUTH. I will head the Scriptures L.F for Lucifers Flood, and N.F. for Noahs Flood. L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20). L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23). N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16). Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives and all the animals on the Arc were saved alive to start over. L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22) L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22). L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5). N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22). L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20). L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12). N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10). N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12). N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7). N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9). N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22). L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17). L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16). L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20). L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20). L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7). L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18). N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4). L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11). N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16). This proves the Earth was plenished before because God told Noah to go and re-plenish the earth, Genesis 9:1, ‘And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” Just as God told Adam and Eve to do when He restored the Earth to a habitable state and He created them, Genesis 1:28, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth” I hope you take the time to read and check the Scriptures for yourself and make up your own mind as to what you want to believe. Cheers Mate,

YEC Version 1.0 God did it, as He said He did it In the Time Frame He Said he Did It With light days before the sun was made.....with birds before land animals were made and man formed out of the dust of the earth and life breathed into Him Just as He said He did Since when is God limited by time?

2 Timothy 3:7, Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth. Romans 1:22, "professing themselves to be wise they became fools," Since reading the Scriptures since age 5, you obviously have missed these which clearly show two different floods. Here’s the Scriptures that show a vast difference between the flood God hit the Earth with in His anger after Lucifers rebellion, and the flood of Noah. I will head the Scriptures CALLING LUCIFERS FLOOD, L.F. CALLING NOAH'S FLOOD, N.F. You should plainly see there was tow floods on the earth, one caused by lucifers rebellion, the other by mans rebellion. Thing is, its not just a quick skim over read, one has to actually pick up a Bible and check out each and every scripture to see the truth. L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20). L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23). N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16). Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives and all the animals on the Arc were saved alive to start over. L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22) L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22). L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5). N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22). L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20). L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12). N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10). N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12). N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7). N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9). N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22). L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17). L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16). L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20). L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20). L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7). L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18). N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4). L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11). N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16). This proves the Earth was plenished before because God told Noah to go and re-plenish the earth, Genesis 9:1, ‘And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” Just as God told Adam and Eve to do when He restored the Earth to a habitable state and He created them, Genesis 1:28, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth” Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. I hope you take the time to read and check the Scriptures for yourself and make up your own mind as to what you want to believe. Cheers Mate,

The devil does not want anyone to know about his previous reign on the earth because this knowledge would expose completely expose him for who he is and what he is. he is a murderer, a thief and a liar, John 8:44. He does not want anyone to know that the original creation was destroyed because of him and his rebel angles who followed him. He wanted to be like God, and he failed, he told Adam and Eve they would become like God and they fell for this lie. We want to be like God but only in the manner of being completely good as He is, not actually be a god? This deception, this hiding and denying there was an original creation, ignoring the hundreds of Scriptures which prove there was such a rebellion and destruction of the earth, the turning off of light and the flooding of the earth only gives ammo the second satanic lie, THE THEORY OF EVOLUTUION. Deceived people cannot even begin to reasonably explain the origins and purposes of the three great domains--heaven, earth, and sea and, as if sensing a dire lack, some adherents seek out what is called, the "Theory of Everything" 2 Timothy 3:7, Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth. Power belongeth unto God (see Psalm 62:11). Things that are seen were not made of things that do appear. Just look at the Periodic Table (the law of octaves preceded it). The difference between substances just basically has to do with the number of bits. All substances (we are told) are measured by protons, neutrons, and electrons. The thing that differs between substances is just the numbers. It looks like everything is composed of just little bits of power that can push or pull, etc. Just BITS OF POWER. God SPOKE and things came into existence. They say electrons are invisible. All these visible things are made from invisible power. Charles Darwin himself admitted in writing that his "THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND THE SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST" was probably all a farce, a theory, yet this satanic world not only believes this lie, they promote it throughout the world in schools and universities. "Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a phantasy." --Charles Darwin, Life and Letters, 1887, Vol. 2, p. 229 (endnote as quoted on Animals that Defy Evolution Part III) "Such simple instincts as bees making a beehive could be sufficient to overthrow my whole theory." --Charles Darwin. Romans 1:22, "professing themselves to be wise they became fools,"

The saints don't believe in umpteen versions of the creation account, and have never called themselves YEC's or OEC's or whatever, they simply believe the written word in its plainest and most obvious meaning. I have never heard of any disagreement among those who take the Bible the way it reads, and trust its contents. I read Genesis on my own volition at the age of 5, and nothing came to me about double floods, evolution and the dozens of Satanic delusions about it. To this day I do not believe that God lied to me through the scriptures, and to this day, having tested and tried the word, I do not see it any differently. The Lord has given me details of the creation which would satisfy scientific minds, things which are very difficult to comprehend, and yet I have never questioned its simplicity, which stands true through all time. If the saints have not picked up on these theories in the past, including the writers of the Bible...who have not expressly said anything like the gap theory...I question it, and I totally reject it, for a thousand reasons if not one.

And how many variations of YEC? Probably close to infinite. It has to be redefined as science continues to prove their theories are without merit.

20 variations on the gap theory - no surprise there. I don't want to elaborate on what I have written at this stage, mainly because it is another subject on its own - about the "waters" etc.

Before we go on, you need to understand that there is probably 20 variations or more of the Gap Theory. Even on this site, there are multiple views on the Gap Theory. While I quote and rep Hazard quite often because of the resources Hazard uses, I'm probably more in agreement with Other One with respect to the Gap Theory. You've lost me in your written thoughts. I suggest you rewrite it another way clearly stating your objection with scriptural proof.

you mean how he washed his hands of the whole affair? and how the crowd said the guilt should be on them, and on their children? or do you mean we ought to sit in judgement on Pilate? i think what matters is what he believes in his heart, and i think God sees that clearly, but i do not.

why is that people forget that when God created everything, Time was part of that creation God is eternal.....everywhen and time puts no limits on Him. Time is merely the meter by which this drama we call life is measured When we enter into eternal life, time won't matter to us either Time is something of an illusion anyway....no matter when it is, it is always...now. All The World's A Stage - Poem by William Shakespeare All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant, Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms. Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel And shining morning face, creeping like snail Unwillingly to school. And then the lover, Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier, Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard, Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel, Seeking the bubble reputation Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice, In fair round belly with good capon lined, With eyes severe and beard of formal cut, Full of wise saws and modern instances; And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts Into the lean and slippered pantaloon, With spectacles on nose and pouch on side; His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice, Turning again toward childish treble, pipes And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all, That ends this strange eventful history, Is second childishness and mere oblivion, Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything. William Shakespeare

As I look at it scripture seems clear We were there in the spirit realm that's how God knew us before we were born thats why He sanctified some there for His purpose in this earth age,ie,His plan...Had satan not rebelled we wouldve never been made flesh Romans 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified , them He glorified." God is telling you here why He "predestined" them, and how He could do this and yet still have it all be in fairness to God. When God predestinated a person, He also "called" that person. There is a difference between "called" and "chosen"; for many are called, but few are chosen. When God called one to do His work, He also judged [justified] that person at that time. The time of the judging was in the first earth age, at the time of the overthrow of Satan, before the foundations of this flesh age were formed. It was at that time that the Father made those that were "predestinated", "called and judged" [called the elect] to have a similar compassion for lost souls as Christ had. In that first earth age they became the "Zadok" or "the just", or "Elect" of this earth age. These same souls of the Zadok are of great importance in the Millennium age, as is detailed in Ezekiel 44. Of all the times of centuries past, this generation is probably in the most exciting of all times past. We are witnessing the completion of all of God's Word come to pass, as the end of this age comes to a close. When we are justified it doesn't mean that we don't pay for our sins in the flesh, but when you have been justified the Holy Spirit can interfere in the elect's lives and cause them to make a change in the direction that they are going. Paul's mind was set on killing Christians, and God Will was to make him the teacher and writer for Him of His Holy Word. God interfered with Paul's life on the road to Damascus, and struck him down blind, and when Paul then listened to God's instructions, the Spirit of God changed Paul's direction to glorify God, and Jesus Christ. It's also why He hated Esau before he was even born Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." It was written by the Prophet Malachi in Malachi 1:2, 3; "I have loved you, saith the Lord Yet ye say, `Wherein hast Thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob," "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains [nations] and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness." While Esau was a small embryo in his mother Rebecca's womb, God hated Esau. If it sounds a little bit unfair, then you missed the point of the entire eighth chapter where God stipulated where He foreknew those that overcame at Satan's rebellion in the first earth age. Don't you think that God is judge enough to know who to hate and who to love. Esau had some very bad habits and one of those actions was to show disrespect for the heritage that God had given him. First of all Esau married out of His race of people, which God forbid. This made it impossible for Christ to be born through Esau because of the mixture and corruption of Esau's bloodline. Secondly Esau placed the value of the Abrahamic covenant at one bowl of red mush, what an insult. Esau put no value on the heritage of God, or any part of God's Word and promises. Esau did not wish to be an heir of our Heavenly Father. If Esau was that way in this earth age, he was probably far worse in the age that was. God doesn't hate someone without a cause.

Well I'm pleased you read what others post back to you, in total. Happy New Year.

Of course. I can refer you to the university where I got my degree in Mechanical Engineering and the textbooks I used. I can refer you to the reference books I used on process control and measurement as a Mechanical / Design Engineer with 40+ years of experience. Nearly all of my experience has been on the technical side of engineering, including the use of lasers, electron microscopes, non-contact measurement techniques, process controls, etc. One of my hobbies outside of work and staying current with both chemical and mechanical engineering fields, is astronomy and the building and using of telescopes. I've been building telescopes since I was in grade school, a long, long, time ago. I also program in multiple languages. My IQ is 157, so I'm not the smartest person in the world, but I'm not a dummy either. (Not counting my patents, my military classified work is now being used in the Middle East on the ground and in the air. This was both electronics and optics work.) This is work I can't and won't talk about. I have moral, legal and ethical limits as to what I am allowed to talk about.

~! If We Are To Truly Reduce Life Down To It's Common Core In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1 It's Really All About The LORD Jesus And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9 And His Pleasure Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11 ~ If there was no afterlife... or there was but it was unpleasant.... would anything in the Bible really matter.... Most witnessing techniques seem to focus on the afterlife.... Sounds like it's pretty important.... ~! Jesus But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 Matters For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 ~ The Heart Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. Job 13:18 Of The Beloved As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. Psalms 42:1 And The Master's Voice Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28-29

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160