Leaderboard

Deidre, On this forum we stand with scripture. Period. To even suggest that it might be OK to marry outside your belief system, as a Christian could be dangerous to someone who is just not ready to listen or even be strong enough to stand on the word. So my question would be if as you say the Bible is clear on this subject why even bring up that fact you know couples who have done this. I just think it might be a slippery slope. My opinion.

Blessings,,,,, There was a time where I was very rebellious & I went 'out into the world" ,l ran amok & became "of the world",lI won't go on & on but to make a long story short,during that time I got tattoos,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,when I came BACK to my Lord & Savior,on my knees,I felt very bad about getting 'tattoos",,,,,,,,,,,,but I was immature then & came to understand that it was just "scars" left from battle,,,,,,,,,,,,,the battle was my flesh & my spirit,the struggle,the conflict,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sin? No,not sin,,,,,ignorance,arrogance,youth,rebellion,,,,,,,,,my entire lifestyle was sinful & everything I did,,,the FLESH has been crucified & I only bear the reminders of what God brought me out of,,,,I can see the "old man" but I can barely remember her,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thanks to Jesus Would I get a tattoo today,no,of course not,,,,,,,,,,,,why would I ? There is no part of my flesh (or me)that needs adornment or attention,I want WHO is IN ME to stand out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Glory to God With love-in Christ,Kwik

Blessings,,,,,,,,,,,, Okay,now that's a different story & it was not "Poof-struck by a love bug" ,,,,,,which is ridiculous as I mentioned earlier So now you are saying the 2 were NOT Christians in the first place but then one decided to follow Christ & the other is a muslim,after the fact-right? Well,someone said earlier,,,,,now you have a decision to make & that about says "IT ALL",,,,,,,here is what I think & it is my advice if you want it,,,,,,it is the same as this................... This is direct from GOD,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,He is not saying to "despise" family,loved one's etc,,,,,but HE MUST come FIRST and we must be willing to forsake anything & anyone because we LOVE JESUS THAT MUCH,,,,,more than anyone or anything!!!!Youm made a statement & said "I CAN"T leave him" so what you are actually saying is that you CAN leave Christ,right? Now I know you're response is going t o be"Why can't I have both?" Because,Beloved,,,,,,,,,,,,Jesus just asked you "How much do you love me" in that little verse of Scripture that I quoted,,,,,,,,,,,,, Remember this,,,,,,do you think a GOD,the ONE True LIVING GOD,the One Who gave His very own LIFE for YOU would take your place on that cross if He did not LOVE YOU & want you to have,not only ETERNAL Life with Him but also,a more abundant life here & now with HIM? Do you think He would want you to do anything that would hurt you and keep you from having Peace,Joy,Love ? Of course not,,,,,,do you not think He knows what is the very best for YOU?Of course He does & you have to Trust HIM with your life,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,He died for YOU,now Live FOR HIM,if you love Him If you left your muslim friend the very moment you made the decision to live for Christ & surrendered your "self" & you would trust in the Lord He does Complete you & HE does Provide us with much more than we could ever hope or imagine,,,,,,,many will say that perhaps your muslim friend come to Jesus & you can live happily ever after,,,,,,,,,,,,,well,maybe that is true & if it is what the Lord God has for you then surely He Will do that but you have a decision to- make,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if it were Gods Will ,Plan & Purpose of your calling then it would not matter if you left the guy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, If this guy loves YOU & you left him for your love for Jesus perhaps it would provoke him to 'jealously" to seek what it is you have that he does not? I'm not saying that would happen but maybe your actions would point him to the WAY of the Cross? In any event,do you love yourself & your temporal life more than our Lord & Savior or,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I believe that is the choice,,,,,,,,imo Praying for you With love-in Christ,Kwik

What I struggle with is the preponderance of Scripture that indicates choice that man has responsibility toward~ that the Calvinist says isn't there Really ... literally from beginning to end choice is an initial focus from God Speaking to man and right beside all of this they have the thought that God does it all and man is but a puppet in and of himself.... Deception is defined de·cep·tion de·cep·tion [di sépsh'n] (plural de·cep·tions) n 1. practice of misleading somebody: the practice of deliberately making somebody believe things that are not true 2. something intended to mislead somebody: an act, trick, or device intended to deceive or mislead somebody [15th century. Directly or via French < Latin deception- < decept- , past participle of decipere (see deceive)] Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. misleading somebody to the very simple hermeneutic of God's Word in responsibility to choosing God rather than the the world they were born in along with the person they are and the manipulator of it all satan - debunks the majority of Scripture and It's purpose... as plainly written! Love, Steven

One problem that we may be having in discussing this topic is a communication issue. People here come from different levels of understanding in terms of their familiarity with Scripture. People have been led to believe certain things by listening to pastors or to their friends or reading a pamphlet or a book here or there and all matter of other influence. Some of us have just accepted some ideas as truth without really having done sufficient homework to really justify what we believe with great confidence. Some of us come to topics with such prejudices, that it seems as though we can't really hear what the other person is saying. Some of us do not understand the terminology of theology, or perhaps we have a misunderstanding or a skewed understanding of what some terms mean. Some of us might only accept one version of the Bible as authoritative, and some might prefer a version of the Bible because it is very easy to understand. The problem with some of those versions, is that the writer may not even be translating what the Bible says so much as they are restating what they think it means. Some of us approach the Bible in a pretty much strictly literal fashion, and that may not always be the right thing to do. On the other hand some of us might approach the Bible viewing it with the idea that it is mostly symbolism or allegory and then miss entirely what it is saying to us. There is probably some balance in between these extremes which is best, but it is very hard to know or to say where that balance is. For those of you who are reading my posts, you should know that I am speaking to people who believe that the Bible is the word of God, that it does not contain errors, and that it has no contradictions, even though we might see plenty of things that appear to be contradictory. When I say this I do not mean to say that the Bible that we have in our hands no matter what version it might be, is completely error-free. I mean to say that when God inspired certain individuals to write what became Scripture, that that inspiration was perfect and those individuals wrote down exactly what it was that God intended for us to know. We do not have any copies of those original manuscripts. On the other hand, the tens of thousands of copies of ancient manuscripts and manuscript fragments are of such overwhelming consistency and similarity, that I believe a reasonable person looking at them without prejudices would conclude that for all intents and practical purposes they are very very good and worthy of our trust. So, if you are not a person who believes and trusts the Scriptures, then I am not speaking to you as my audience. Of course you are free to read what I write and free to believe what you want. But I am not likely to engage you in any debate when we cannot even approach the Bible from the same reference of its reliability. One thing that is difficult in this thread, and in other threads as well, is that people have such a variety of experience and sophistication that it is very difficult to write something meaningful that everyone can understand. Sometimes people in this thread as well as myself, might refer to some grammar and vocabulary concerning the original languages of the Bible, primarily Hebrew and Greek. I have had some training in Greek, absolutely no training in Hebrew, but I would venture to say that probably no one commenting in this thread is an expert in any of these languages, and we should all be distrusted a little bit when we speak on that topic. Most of the time when the Bible is translated, it has been done so by people who have more training and experience in the original languages, and there translations should probably be seen and respected more than things like we laymen might say about a verse based on our dim understanding of an original language and a copy of a lexicon in our hands. I understand and admit my limitations in this area and I caution everyone to take what I say about Greek or Hebrew with a grain of salt and do the same for others posting here who may sound knowledgeable, but really might be pretty ignorant. Finally, because I have noticed that a lot of people are commenting on the difficulty which they are having trying to follow this discussion, I am going to make an effort to try to simplify what I am saying while at the same time not sounding condescending. I don't know how well I will be able to strike that balance. I will be depending on you all to let me know if I am going over your head, or being too simple-minded. It is a broad audience here, and very hard to fit our posts in a way which are both understandable and informative. I pray that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes and ears of your understanding to what it is that he is saying, and block you from accepting the errors of us who are posting in this thread.

Your trying to change scripture. I know God can do anything. But to marry an unbeliever is warned against. God does not give these things to hurt us but to help us. I would not want to get into a marriage in hopes this person will change.

This, right here. While I try not to judge, the Bible is clear about things like this in order to help us, not hinder us. But, then there are circumstances where I've seen unequally yoked marriages, whereby the spouse who wasn't initially Christian at the beginning of the marriage, ended up converting from the good example of the Christian spouse. What do you make of those types of circumstances?

Continue to be friends but not close friends. Close friends tend to drag you away from Christ if they are not saved. You want to hang out with strong Christians and to have some with you when you are around him. Our son used to invite an unsaved girl to go boating with him and other Christians, and finally invited her to his young adults group in Church which met in a home. Afterward she started crying and confessed to him that she didn't think God would ever forgive her for all she had done. He led her through the Bible showing her how to receive Christ. She did so right there in the car. He married her a year later. She asked for an evangelistic message to be preached at her wedding, since most of her family was not saved and had never even been in a church! Jayne gave you very good advice.

I have friends who are lost, too. It's perfectly fine to be friends and to be friendly with the lost. My lost friends know EXACTLY about my relationship with Christ. And they know that I don't watch some of movies they do or go some of the places that they do. And they know that I pray for them because I tell them. One caveat - because this guy is a former boyfriend - be careful. Don't fall into old habits. Make some new ones - pray like mad for his immortal soul. Invite him along with other friends to church. Make sure you have plenty of Christian friends, too.

A husband and wife must be supportive and be encouraging not only in worldly life but also in spiritual life. If one is an unbeliever, he/she will be discouraged and it will also create problems in the family.

Many of us do not really grasp the meaning of both and that's why I would like everybody's input of in which camp we belong. I believe in a free will: By free will , I believe God gives us all a choice to either accept or reject the gospel message. God knows already who will reject or accept Him Please share all you know about this topic or everything you want to ask,we're all here to learn

My mom always told me "You can't judge a book by its cover". Good advice.

yes, 'research'. find the original language/meaning. no one, nothing, is "removed" nor "taken out" in the original Scripture, and it doesn't fit in when mis-read that way either. keep seeking, and God's WOrd is that you shall find. The truth is just not popular.

That would be true IF He has clearly put the choice in man's hands. If it were that clear, there would not be differing opinions on this. I was in your camp (by that I mean of the free will / we choose to accept/obey/follow God, choose one, if that does not describe your position, I am sorry) from 1979 to 2013. Then I started really studying this issue. Now, if see things in a different light, and so much so, that I do not say I changed my mind, merely. I used to be a pre-trib rapturist, then I studied and became a post-trib rapturist. On that, I changed my mind, but this is different. I never called myself an Arminian, tended to call myself a Calminian - having a mixture of beliefs on these matters. What is different here from my eschatological shift is that I did not just change my mind, I repented. I literally have told God that I am sorry, for not believing His word, for being too lax in my studies, and for not having bothered to sort it out long ago. I won't go so far as to call those who do not believe as I do "heretics" as the Dutch reformers did, but I understand why they did that. We have differing understandings, clearly, but I only came to my current understanding as a result of studying scripture, so clearly, for now at least, I cannot believe otherwise unless at some point, I cease to view scripture as divinely inspired and itinerant. Thanks for your comments and observations.

Thank you for the explanation.

Blessings Redwood ,,,,, Joline answered your question but still I didn't want you t o think I was ignoring you,,,,,,,,,,,,I was responding to what Joline commented on & she mentioned that the Scriptures were not available to laity for many years,etc,,,,,,,that's all & it was Off-Topic so neither of us elaborated,perhaps sometime in another Thread I too,address people by name ,,,,that specific post happened to be one of the rare occasions when I used no salutation whatsoever You're doing fine ,personally I was brought up to "address" properly when writing,I'm not very "hip" to the impersonal computer jive ,,,,,,, And welcome to Worthy! With love-in Christ,Kwik

If we step away from Calvinism vs Arminianism, then the Biblicist view is that salvation is entirely and totally by God's grace through faith in the Person and Finished Work of Christ. No one can add an iota to what God has done or does when saving a sinner. It is a supernatural work of God. At the same time sinners must freely respond to the Gospel while being convicted by the Holy Spirit. The problem arises when Calvinists teach that the New Birth precedes saving faith, and is only for the so-called "elect". That not only fails to give glory to God, but reverses what the Bible teaches. God does receive all the glory when we believe and preach that sinners are saved by (1) the POWER of the Gospel and (2) the POWER of the Holy Spirit in convicting and convincing the lost. When the Gospel (primarily as the Word of God) is preached, Paul says that it is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and Peter and James say that it is the seed of the New Birth (1 Pet 1:22-25; Jas 1:17,18). When the Word of God is sent forth, it is a living Word accompanied by the Holy Spirit, and therefore it pierces to the the soul and spirit, and brings conviction (Heb 4:12,13). And saving faith comes by hearing the Word (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17).

Thank you for explaining it a bit, Joline.

Sad isn't it? Sort of like the RC church~~~people were not allowed to read their Bible until how many years ago? My mothers background was very reformed and the church ruled those days,there was no free will whatsoever. Can I say safely,there was a lot of bondage? Or maybe there still is? Also I was never allowed to say that I was sure to go to heaven,they didn't think anybody could be sure of that, I remember learning a song at a club from the Salvation army "If you get there, before I do (heaven ) I was not allowed singing that song and also I couldn't go to the boys and girls club from the Salvation Army anymore. But Jesus said : John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Hi, kwikphilly. Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand how this post adds to the discussion in this thread. Would you please explain it so I can make the connection? Thank you. ( Apparently I don't know how to quote correctly around here. I am referring to your post about the councils and the fate of William Tyndale. )

Thank you, Willa, for posting Scripture so we can all study to see what God has to say about these things in his Word.

Someone once said that Calvinism is salvation from God's perspective and Armenianism is salvation from man's perspective. After we have received Christ we can usually look back and see how God shaped events to funnel us into repentance and salvation. I pretty much agree With the Lutheran perspective on this, which I feel is more Biblical: Historically, however, most Reformed churches adhere to the five points of Calvinist theology commonly summarized by the acrostic "tulip" as these were set forth at the Synod of Dort (1618-19). On page 41 in his book, Churches in America, Dr. Thomas Manteufel reviews these five points and explains how they compare and/or contrast with what Lutherans believe regarding these matters. T (Total Depravity) The Calvinists rightly teach that all descendants of Adam are by nature totally corrupt in spiritual matters. People do not have freedom of the will to turn to God in faith or cooperate in their conversions (Eph. 2:1; John 3:5-6; Rom. 8:7). U (Unconditional predestination) Scripture does teach that it is by grace that God has predestinated the elect to eternal salvation and given them justifying faith. It is not because of any condition fulfilled by them (2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 1:4-6; Phil. 1:29). However, the Bible does not teach, as do the Calvinists, that some are predestined for damnation. God wants all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). L (Limited atonement) It is true that Christ died for the church and purchased it with His blood (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:28). Furthermore, His atoning death does not mean that all people are saved (1 Cor. 1:18). However, Jesus died for all (2 Cor. 5:15). I (Irresistible grace) We agree that God makes us alive by His mighty power, without our aid (Eph. 2:5; John 1:13). But Scripture warns we can resist God’s gracious call (Matt. 23:37; Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 6:1). And some people do resist God’s grace, or all would be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Furthermore, God warns us not to resist His grace (2 Cor. 6:1; Heb. 4:7). P (Perseverance in grace) We affirm with Scripture that those who are predestined to salvation cannot be lost but will continue by God’s power to a blessed end (Rom. 8:30; 1 Peter 1:5). Scripture does not teach, however, that those who come to faith cannot lose that faith (Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29; Ps. 51:11). God urges His people not to continue in sin but to live in repentance and faith (Rom. 6:1-4). Churches in America by Dr. Thomas Manteufel; p. 41 (St. Louis: CPH, 1994).

I know you said much, but my mind works mostly on one tree at at time, instead of the whole forest lol. Taking this example, calls to my mind that God makes Himself known to all, and everyone has a responsibility to accept God or not, which means they have a very small part in the pardoning, where as in your example of two criminals, well it makes it sound like they are at most two pawns. As to your comments on God's foreknowledge is set in stone, nobody can change it, does not mean that God has given us no chance to accept Him, just because He already knows everything. God's sovereignty, is His sovereignty in jeopardy if He chooses to let man accept or reject Him? Mega, this is a puzzle that hurts my head, I am saying I don't know. Six years ago when God spoke to me, I would have described it as I had no choice, I could not refuse Him. Now, I say I recognized I wanted the light, I could choose the darkness, yet I wanted nothing to do with the darkness, and I desperately threw myself at His feet and told Him I can't do it myself, I needed Him to help me.

Placing the choice upon Him when He has clearly, in His Sovereignty, put it upon man would be very unglorifying in my understanding! Placing the total upon God clearly robs God of His Creative ability 'man in our image'... by the way how do you answer Does God have sovereign choice of eternity? If you say yes then would not the image He created also? Love, Steven

Amen:)

I think it robs God of glory, because salvation comes from Him totally by His grace. If it is dependent on us in some way, then we are taking credit for what He alone has done. Fair? Well, you would have to define what that means. No, He is not always fair, at least not in the way humans often define fairness. Is it fair that I sin, and deserve death and separation from God for eternity, that Jesus, who is totally innocent pays for my sins through horrible death and suffering? That is certainly not fair. You think it is not fair that He decided who goes to Heaven? Really? First off, He made everything, and every one of us. We belong to Him and as our creator, has every right to decide our fate. Heaven is His, why should He not be able to choose who enters it? Denying Him that choice, would be like me telling you, that you have no right not to welcome a child molester into your home. If it is your place, you get to decide! Consider the following: 14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. Do you think that has bearing on this topic? Paul points out that there is no injustice with God. He also immediately after that points out that God has the right and even makes the choice, to create some people to demonstrate His power in the form of wrath upon them, while showing mercy to others. He also hardens who He desires. Verse 23 there shows that his glory is demonstrated in that He prepares some beforehand, to receive His mercy. I think it is helpful, to consider several concepts. Justice. Getting what one deserves, and/or what one has earned. Sin (and we all do that) deserves punishment. The wages (wages are earned) of sin, is death. Mercy. Being spared from justice, not getting what we do deserve. Grace. Getting something good, that we do not deserve. God gives those He chooses to forgive, grace, my extending mercy to them to exempt them from His justice. For the wages of sin is death . . . but the gift of God is eternal life. Rom 6:23 Now, we observe, that all have sinned. (Rom 6:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ) Therefore, all deserve death, it is what we have earned. Two criminals rob a bank. They both get found guilty. The governor of the state, has the power to pardon them for their crimes. He chooses, for reasons which he does not have to justify, to pardon one of them, but not the other. Now in human reasoning, we would say, that is not fair, because we often think that fair, means equal treatment. A parent sends an 8 year old child to bed, but lets the 10 year old stay up an extra hour. The 8 year old protests: "But that's not fair!" Here again, we equate fairness with equal treatment. The parent, on the other hand, has the authority to treat the two children differently for reasons of his/her own, and does not need to justify that decision. In the criminal example I just gave, the criminal who was not pardoned, cannot claim that his sentence was not just, after all, he is getting just what he deserves. So it is with sinners and God. It is not remarkable, that God does not save everyone, it is remarkable that He saves anyone. I will not bring a charge of unfairness against God, though I realize that He does not treat everyone the same. It is not my place, to judge God by my standards, it is His place, to judge me by His standards, and His prerogative, to spare me if He chooses to do so. Sin is against God, so it falls to God to punish us, or to forgive us, it is His prerogative. You also said: "He knows our choice already,because He is all knowing." I would not disagree with that, but I do not know what your point is about that. How do we know though, whether the reason He knows that, is because He will bring it to pass? God indeed, knows what will happen. When He let's us know ahead of time, we call that a prophecy. We know that God's prophecies, or the things that will happen, indeed, will happen, just as He foresees. Let me give you something to ponder here. Suppose, back in eternity, before the foundation of the world, God foresaw, that you would come to faith in Him. Now let me ask, if He foresaw that, will it happen just as He foresaw? Of course it will. So, if way back then it was already known what would happen, and that it absolutely would come to pass . . . could you have chosen to make it otherwise? Can you undo God's foreknowledge? If not, then in what way can you possibly claim to have had free will, it was already set is stone, before you will ever came into existence, eh?

That was what the rest of what I wrote explaining the 3/4 part is that we have conscientious telling us good but we desire the sin because it satisfies flesh now... with The Holy Righteous God a blemish is to defiled for keeping... When we take in the creative Word and Written Word we infuse ourselves with faith and that allows us to effectively receive repentance of ourselves and be willing to die to ourselves in first born realities and receive God into our new born being to live s/Spiritual realities.... we become a new creation where the Spirit of God enters us and seals us to belong to God forever! Love, Steven

That just always BLEW MY MIND,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I just don't understand how anyone can put man's word at the same level of God's Word & it is true Shiloh,many do,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oi vey!

Joline,may I ask for your opinion on this? I was born in the Netherlands and there where Reformed churches practically at every corner~~~

That makes me probably 100% Armenian~~~I do believe in OSAS but if it's for a different reason than I don't have anything in common with the Calvinist view ~ Not that we need to label, but it's good to know of how much we agree with this teaching.. Thanks

Enoob,I didn't want to derail Bobeeps thread You said: Also total depravity in 3/4 agreement as we did die spiritually as God The Breathof Life (Holy Spirit) left when sin began in us Can you please explain this in different wording? Sorry I don't really know what you mean ?

I answered that on bopeep's thread but so as to comply with the desire of my Sister in Christ- Perseverance of the saints as I understand it from the Calvinistic perspective explained in the post to Shiloh. Also total depravity in 3/4 agreement as we did die spiritually as God The Breath of Life (Holy Spirit) left when sin began in us Ge 2:17 for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. KJV No longer having the option of turning to God's Spirit within we became self centered and yet still having choice but without God's influenced reason Ge 3:22 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: KJV as we are born till the age of accountability this above I believe is conscience and all people have it. As we violate that conscientious past the age of accountability we reduce the knowledge of good and increase that of evil effectively bringing us to the place ,where like leaven, we become totally depraved without knowledge of good at all... thus the knowledge of good and creation itself lies as a witness to the existence of God that we have choice till we have filled ourselves with total evil. Ro 1:18-32 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. KJV Love, Steven

Amen for 100% ! Do Calvinist believe God can revoke the Salvation and therefore they might live in fear? Oh dear...... That's so wrong In the Netherlands I have known may Calvinists as there are many and I always found them more or less legalistic , they went by so many rules, I remember so many things some of my friends were not allowed to do on Sunday, like swimming or buying french fries or something tons of stuff... I remember when my parents were visiting my grandparents I was not allowed to bring my knitting, that was wrong to do that on the Sunday. I even had an uncle who thought it wrong to drive on Sunday

Amen,,,,,,,,,,there is nobody GREATER than our Loving Father Who First Loved us,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,& it is all up to us.........FREE WILL

Thanks for your reply: You said: To my mind, that Arminian perspective, robs God of the glory of saving us by His grace alone, and but salvation, into the hands of man, with God being a helper. Why do you think it robs God from the glory? There's absolutely nothing man can do to get saved, it's all God and He is calling us all but we decide if we accept the offer, do you think God is fair? How can this be fair if He decides who will go to heaven and who are not? He knows our choice already,because He is all knowing.

The same thing applies to God in the Old Testament. Right off the bat with Cain. God could see the direction in which Cain was heading and God had compassion on Cain and came to him to bring up the topic of "What's wrong, Cain....why is your face fallen?" Just like a good mother or father who knows exactly what is wrong with their child, but they ask the question nonetheless to open a dialog and give counsel. God gave Cain an opportunity to BE accepted and explained how. "If you do well, don't you know you will be accepted?" God warned Cain of the gravity of sin and Cain's attitude that would lead him into a trap. "If you don't do well, sin is crouching at the door for you. It's desire is to master you, but YOU must master it." God couldn't have explained things any better to Cain than he did. It was Cain's choice to reject God's wisdom and cling to his sour disposition of jealously and arrogance and a murderous heart. Cain, most definitely, "resisted" God's grace and call to repentance.

I have a different take on the doctrine that stems from the Calvinist on this- I understand it as the mans view upward to God ~ where exactly do we go toward life when life 'IS' God.... things get hard here in the death but I have already chosen 'Life' and that being in Christ Jesus my Lord~ becoming His Grip upon me so that choice is sealed by His vow to Himself to keep me effectively dividing redemption apart from flesh and into s/Spirit... Love, Steven

Which of the 5 points would you agree with Enoob? ( Don't answer if it's too personal for you ) Praise God for Salvation,the biggest gift we can receive !

Thanks for your reply: I agree very much with everything you said, one thing I like to ask is why is the reason for you to believe ones saved always saved different then the Calvinist view? 1 Cor. 1:8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Because we are in the anatomy of The Greatest Work of eternity= salvation of the beloved of God; we must know already it cannot be summed in the instance but will in fact require the eternity of God as the mantle of worship for what He Has Performed in The Purity of Himself! Love, Steven

I as well~ as God has so ordered the new life to be of dependence upon The Written Word and s/Spiritual structured realities formed from that Word...

It is of course, and interesting topic, and I, like Ezra, consider myself a Biblicist. Thee diference is though, that I see those five points and thouroughly Biblical. To my mind, that Arminian perspective, robs God of the glory of saving us by His grace alone, and but salvation, into the hands of man, with God being a helper. It is interesting, that it was said: The five points of Calvinists (rejected be arminians) are . . . This is where it is interesting. Neither Calvin, nor Arminus, made any list like this. Followers of Arminius, formluated things they objected to in Calvin's Teachings, they we essentialy becoming protestors of Protestantism. The Dutch reformers replied to the objections of these remonstrants, and issued the concepts of TULIP in reply, before pronouncing the five objects that the followers of Arminus had, as heresy. Basic idea of the TULIP T - Total depravity This does not mean that people are as evil as possible. I means that since people are damaged by sin, they are spiritually blind, spiritually deaf, have hardened hearts, are prisoners to sin, Our inability to save ourselves is TOTAL U - Unconditional election The idea here, is that God chose us in eternity, before the foundation of the world, to be rescued. saved, We are informed why, so t is UNCONDITIONAL, as far as we can tell, why God chose who He chose, other than His own soveriegn will, for His good pleasure. L - Limited atonement The atonement, the price ot ransom that Jesus paid on the cross, is sufficient to cover all sin.However, it is LIMITED to those who God chose to give the faith to beleive. I - Irresistible grace Everyone resists God, but the grace He exerts on those He chose, if too powerful resist, we cannot overpower His choice. His grace is therefore, IRRESISTIBLE. P - Perseverance of the saints Those God has chosen will win the fight of faith. They will PERSEVERE to the end, so that none will be lost. This is the promise of the New Testament

Thanks Kwik,I don't like labeling either,but it is interesting to know where we stand on those things, do you might sharing why or not you agree or disagree with those points?

Very good explanation,thank you Ezra This is how I think of these points: So nr.1 is where Calvinist completely don't think anybody can reject the gospel if God is choosing them? How fair would that be for people who are not called, God is fair and died for all for whosoever will come.. Nr.2 God would not decide already who are going to heaven or hell....where is our choice in this since God is fair? Why would He send people to hell? nr.3 Jesus died for everybody and not only for some.. nr.4 If you understand the truth, it is hard to resist the truth if you know better,why would somebody reject such a gift? nr5. Yes I believe too : ones saved always saved. lol For me personally ,it would make me more Arminian than Calvininst~~~~ ( I always thought I was more Calvinist, but I do agree with many other teaching they have,many of them are wonderful!

Thanks Ezra,for the 5 important points of Calvinism beliefs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that leaves me out Thanks Angels,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I understand your reasons for starting this study,great Topic for anyone who considers themselves either but like you ,it is so so so difficult for me to relate to "labels" & categories,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,there is but one label I happily fit under "SAVED" and much like Ezra,my beliefs are grounded & rooted in the Word of God ,that ALONE,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jesus abides in me,I don't need to fit in to any category,,,,,,,,,,I guess that makes me simply HIS

Hello Red riding hood ( I hope you're not offended by your beautiful name?) That is where I have my problem too, I believe God gives us a free will to either reject or accept the gospel but on the other hand we would not be able to do that without the Holy Spirit convicting us from our sins. On our own we would not be able to see or to look for the truth,it is the Holy Spirit who is directing us to God and the Holy Spirit is God . The Holy Spirit makes us aware of our state of sin , God knows already who will accept Him,so is there really a free choice I wonder? God is also fair,why would he choose us and not others? Therefore I believe we have a free will to choose which to except. Do you know what I mean?

The Five Points of Calvinism (rejected by Arminians) are: T = Total Depravity (for the Calvinist total inability, and is where Calvinists reject free will). U = Unconditional Election (the elect predestined for Heaven, others for Hell) L = Limited Atonement (Christ died only for the elect) I = Irresistible Grace (the elect cannot help getting saved) P =Perseverance of the Saints (the elect cannot lose their salvation) Personally, I believe that Calvinism is false doctrine, since it distorts Bible Truth. At the same time, I do not consider myself an Arminian, but a Biblicist.

After much study I am leaning toward the Calvinistic view of things. However, the one issue I am undecided on is the final point John Piper made in the second link you referenced above. Here is what he said: "The key difference between a Calvinist and an Arminian is how they understand how we get saved; that is, how we move from a condition of spiritual unbelief to a condition of heartfelt belief or faith in Christ. And the key difference is this: Calvinists believe that God has to produce in us the decisive desire for Christ. And Arminians believe we must produce in ourselves the decisive desire for Christ. The Arminians say that God helps us. He helps all people, but we provide the last, decisive impetus and desire for that belief. "

The Bible is clear that a Believer in Jesus is not to marry a non believer. It says we are not to be unequally yolked. It can cause all kinds of problems but mostly it will be the non believer that will drag the Christian down. So I would say it is going against what God has asked us not to do.