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My journey from not understanding when the rapture was to understanding, why and how I got there. My first thought to myself was: "Explain how Revelation 19 can happen without a Rapture !! It clearly says we come back from Heaven, after marrying the Lamb, with Jesus Christ, on white horses." So do we go to Heaven and Marry Jesus or not ? And it seemed like it was before we fight the Beast/Kings and their Armies on earth. So I had a concrete starting point for my journey. Everything else must explain this chapter that seems to suggest, THERE HAS T BE A RAPTURE. My credo on scriptures is to take them for what they say, and if two scriptures contradict themselves, to find out why, because God does not contradict Himself. This works for me, I never go into A contradiction or supposed contradiction with preset beliefs, that is a hindrance to finding out the truth. So if Rev. 19 can not happen without a Rapture, then I understood the Rapture could not happen at the same time Jesus Returned to the earth to destroy the wicked and save Israel and to save those who had not accepted the Mark of the Beast, and to resurrect those beheaded during this tribulation period, the ones who missed the Rapture, because they were not Christians at the time. I understood this just didn't add up. We are IN HEAVEN, marrying the Lamb, so we have to come back from Heaven, where we had to GO TO because the Holy Word says we are there, in Heaven......So there had to be a Rapture. Through much study I understood there has to be a rapture before Jesus comes back to rule on earth. So then, I set about to figure out why God's word seemed to contradict itself in many scriptures, for I know God is not the author of confusion, Satan is. So I took the verses that seemed to contradict with the Pre-tribulation beliefs, to see if they stood up, for if they did, I was going to have reevaluate Rev. 19 and see if I had read the passage(s) wrong. But while reading all the verses, I begin to understand why people might think there was no pre-tribulation rapture, but I also saw what I thought to be a major flaw in these beliefs. I began to understand that every scripture that looked contradictory, was only that way because it was assumed that the Rapture was at the Same time as the "Second Coming" which is actually the Second Coming of Salvation, the first was to save from sin, the second is to save Israel and those who have become Christians. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks, Joseph did the same thing, Joseph was rejected of his brothers, and saved the Gentiles, (Egyptians from Starvation) then the second time his brothers came to Joseph, HE SAVED THEM....Ditto Jesus. He was rejected by Israel, and saved the Gentile world from Sin, the second time he will save Israel his brothers who rejected him, sold, mocked him etc....AMEN !! But I understood through study and revelation, that if the Rapture precedes the "Second Coming of Salvation" that there would be no contradictions in the verses. Jesus stated he would return Immediately after the Tribulation, but with a Rapture pre-tribulation, we Saints in Heaven in Rev. 19 could also return with Jesus Immediately after the Tribulation, so there was no contradiction in this verse now. The "Last Trump" I studied for awhile. There are 62 mentions of trumps in the bible. Trumps are blown at the Feasts, there is a last trump to every feast. There is a last trump to every Isthmian games held in Corinth ever two years (at that time). Joel 2:1 didn't work for me because it was called a warning, and Paul said in Corinthians that we would be changed in the twinkling of and eye, not warned, and there is another trump sounded at Joel 2:15. The Trump argument just did not sway me that it had to be the Last Trump in Revelation. There are many trumps in the bible, various kinds that came at various times for various reasons. Many Trumps are blown at the end of things, if Jesus died on passover, and he did, and returns at another feast day, this might be the reference here, I just do not know, but we can't just assume this is the Last Trump in Revelation, especially when there are Seven Vials of Judgment left. Then I studied "The Day of the Lord" in depth, and that is Judgment on the earth no doubt. But Second Thessalonians chapter 2 is discussing how the Gathering unto Christ will happen before the Day of the Lord, fear not, for before the day of the Lord, both the apostasy and the Anti-Christ must happen/come to pass. The Thessalonians feared they had missed the Rapture. SUBJECT OF CHAPTER: As concerning the Gathering together unto the Lord........Or the Rapture. The Subject was the Rapture, not the Day of the Lord or the Anti-Christ. Another supposed contradiction accounted for. "The First Resurrection"...... in our numbering things we are limiting God. God spread out Daniels 70 Sevens decree over three time periods. Jesus was the "firstfruits" of the living, every person resurrected in Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection or the resurrection of the living, in Christ Jesus. The Second resurrection will be the resurrection of the dead, after the 1000 year reign. God has no time limits, He does not live in a realm of time per se. So I understood, there are truly only two resurrections. Those who will live forever will be quickened and will be raised first, not all at the same time per se. Then those who will die the second death will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign. Matthew 24:31 was Jesus calling the elect, gathering them to come fight the fight with him. But I noticed it said the Angels would gather the elect from one end of Heaven to the other. We are in Heaven marrying the Lamb (Rev. 19) So no contradiction is left by us reading this in the plain English that it is written in, literally. Mark says he gathers the elect from Heaven and earth, well that is what we pre-tribbers say, there will be elect in Heaven (the Raptured) and on earth (Israel/lost souls who became Christians after the Rapture). Contradiction gone again, We can be in Heaven, marrying the Lamb, and be called from the four corners of Heaven, by Gods angels. (Rev 19 still intact) Last but not least I wondered how Rev. 7:14 could happen, these came out of the Great Tribulation. And how Satan could be given the power to overcome the Saints. Then I saw that the Rapture being pre-tribulation had no effect on the fact that there will be Christians who become Christians after the Rapture, these will be persecuted for their Faith, even as Israel is protected, probably in Petra/Edom. Contradiction again solved, the Rapture of the Saints has no bearing on the Saints who became Saints after the Rapture being persecuted by Satan. So this was my journey, from not knowing if the Rapture was Pre, Mid or Post tribulation, unto what I deem the truth, I came to this decision after 30 years, with much research and study, and guidance from God. I entered the fray with no preconceived notions. Revelation 19 hit me like a ton of bricks. There has to be a Rapture for Rev. 19 to be true, that was he origin or genesis of my understanding on the subject. Then I tried the understanding by fire so to speak. God Bless

Hello, This is a Documentary on the Race to the Moon. I'm using it as Supporting Evidence to falsify erroneous "beliefs" and expose "Secular" Falsehoods concerning the World God made. Thanks for reviewing.

is that right? But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5) If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Timothy 2:13) in Genesis 15, a description is given of an ancient way of confirming a covenant, contract or agreement - Abraham prepared some animals, divided them in two, and then laid them out on the ground. the normal practice was for the two parties to the contract to both walk between the pieces of the animals ((i'm told)). however the Lord confirmed the covenant with Abraham while Abraham was asleep. Abraham played no role in this covenant, but to believe God. satisfaction of the terms of the agreement was not contingent on Abraham, but on God alone. Zach, your blood wasn't spilled on the heavenly altar. you didn't atone for your sin - all of it - He did these things. my faith is not in my own faithfulness, but in God's faithfulness towards me. this is how we can say, we have peace with God, gratitude, and joy - because what we can never do, He has done for us - and we "endure to the end" by remaining steadfast in this hope, not setting aside the faith and trust in the finished work of Christ by which we were declared holy, sanctified forever and saved, by grace, apart from works. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (Romans 9:16) if it only depends on His mercy, not on my will, not on my effort -- what, does His mercy fail? what can separate me from His love? oh yeah -- NOTHING !!

Lizzana, Wondeddog has a good idea...... I might add that you should remind your husband that you did not get this way all by yourself... I don't know where you live, but here in Oklahoma if he left you over something like this our child welfare people would make his life miserable until all your children were 18 and on thier own. If you can trust him, I would recommend you talk to your pastor...

What America doesn't need, in fact what the entire world doesn't need anymore is, ear-ticklin', back-scratchin', penny-pinchin', nickel-nippin', soft-soap, compromising, pink-tea and lemonade type sissy preachers. What America and the entire world desperately needs now is, old-fashioned, Bible-believin', people-lovin', barn-stormin', window-rattlin', shingle-pullin', God-minded, Hell-fire and damnation, separated, soul-winning, preachers who aren't afraid to preach the truth!!!

Revelation Man I don't believe that all translations are not perfect. God delivered his word to us pure, and we can rely on it 100%. Many turn away because they believe the same,.. that God's word has been tampered with by men so what's the point? God preserved his Word for all generations. The old KJV has not changed, and is the most hated version of them all, and these men, scholars of the world, ordained by the world, and not by God are threatened by this version, warning the churches to let go of this translation. This should tell us something and make us ask lots of questions, not just accept. When it comes to interpreting the fine details it does matter, for the scriptures have to harmonise. The clues are in the "words", exactly the way God wanted us to read with all the interpretations already done for us, so we can just read, and feed, and if the words are changed, then the clues get missed for the deeper things. So I declare that when I quote a scripture, it's God's pure word saying exactly how he wanted to say it, in our tongue for our understanding and can be used for reproof, edification, doctrine, etc.

I believe it is also important to understand the difference between the authority of the Godhead, (God`s throne) & the authority of this throne that is `set up.` God`s Throne. It is eternal. It is the source of all authority. It is beyond all created realms. The Throne `set up.` It is under the Godhead. It is appointed by God the Father. It is in the angelic realm. God`s Eternal Throne. We know that God, (the Father, Son & Holy Spirit) have a throne beyond all created things – an eternal throne. We also know that when Christ ascended in His glorified body that He sat down at the right hand of the Father with the glory He had before He came to earth. (Jesus) `being the brightness of His (Father`s) glory & the express image of His person, & upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.` (Heb. 1: 3) From this eternal throne we know that the Lord Jesus Christ is interceding & building the Body of Christ. `We have such a high priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary …` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2) Christ`s own Throne. However in God`s appointed time Jesus will `go to His own throne` ie receive the authority from the Father. This will be the highest authority in the created order in the third heaven, (under the Godhead). Christ told us about His own throne – `To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on MY THRONE, as I also overcame & sat down with my Father on HIS THRONE.` (Rev. 3: 21) I see that God the Father desires to honour His Son & present Him visibly to all, exalting Him to the highest place in all creation, (under the Godhead). “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power & riches & wisdom, & strength & honour& glory & blessing. “`(Rev. 5: 12)

Hi Hazard, Good points there, & a topic that will certainly come up when we are discussing when this throne is set up. (On another thread.) Marilyn.

Hi Ezra, yes I agree. Marilyn.

The LORD their God will save his people on that day as a shepherd saves his flock. They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown. Zechariah 9:16 (New International Version) You will also be a crown of beauty in the hand of the LORD, And a royal diadem in the hand of your God. Isaiah 62:3 (New American Standard Bible)

Hi Retrobyter, It seems we disagree on this point. Marilyn.

Jesus is coming back.. then the end ushers in the new beginning:)

I check out all the Hebrew and Greek root words. No Translation is perfect, And the KJV is no different. The infallible word was written in Hebrew and Greek. So that is the best sources. GB

Hi Revelation Man. We have a difference of interpretations here, which is why we see it slightly different. I rely on the KJV to interpret. If I were to interpret on those other versions, I would come up with a different answer. KJV - Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. This is how I see it through my eyes. You don't have to agree with me, it's ok; After Christ was cut off (crucified) the outcome is the overspreading of abominations. Men rejected the truth and forgiveness of their sins, by replacing what was freely offered to them with lies and unrighteousness. This means that wickedness starts growing at a new level and continues to grow until the Coming (consummation). The "desolate", are those who have rejected Christ. These individuals who are of the world, do not know Christ and are therefore in spiritual darkness. Their spiritual land is "desolate" without truth because of all their abominations which they have committed. This desolation continues to the end, .....a dry thirsty spiritual land with no truth. There is no excuse now because they turned their backs in order to not get healed, therefore more desolations (lies) are coming their way. It's determined by God, it's going to happen, and there's nothing that can change it. That's how I see it anyway. Blessings.

Hi Sister, I was going to do a more detailed response with other scriptures to you but decided to just get to the point and then let you join all the dots in those scriptures I posted and then other scriptures besides .. and what I was ultimately leading to was to do with this : Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. I know we already agree that this speaks of Messiah so to cut to the chase I'll now "spit it out" .. the reason Christ was crucified in the midst of the week had to do with the covenant He was FULFILLING .. meaning .. before Christ could confirm the New Covenant, He must first, by the requirements required of Messiah within the first covenant, had to confirm this was indeed He : Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. .. because before he could confirm the 2nd (new) covenant, He first had to confirm the 1st covenants requirements of being Messiah Himself .. which He did whilst Himself observing the Law during His earthly ministry along with signs & miracles following. And seeing that during the first half of that week the 2nd covenant was not in effect (the testament is only in force AFTER the testator dies), then He could in no way be confirming the new covenant during the 1st half of the week, thus by necessity then, the 2nd half of that week dealt with confirming the now FULFILLED covenant through the New Covenant itself, which covenant is the promises made to the father's come to life .. seeing He did not come to destroy the law & the prophets but to FULFIL. So the first half of the week was confirming the 1st covenant, and the 2nd half of the week dealt with the fulfilled (1st) covenant come to life seen here : By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; .. being of course, the 2nd (new) covenant itself. Which to me, better explains HOW this : Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Most certainly speaks of this : Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Which more precisely explains the WHY behind this: shall Messiah be cut off, and in the midst of the week Regards.

But that's not where it ends. That is the first heaven, then we have the second heaven, and finally we have the third heaven (which is God's Heaven, and where the New Jerusalem and Paradise are located, and where sit the thrones of God and Christ). It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor 12:1-4).

I called Judaism an empty shell. God did NOT give man Judaism. He gave man Christ, who is rejected by Judaism. So why would a Hebrew Christian think that Judaism has any merit?

Shalom, Ezra. What's to discuss? It's really simple. The Greek word "ouranos" and the Hebrew word "shamaayim" both refer to what you can see from the ground looking upward. That's the way it is. Both of these words were translated as "heaven": Genesis 1:20 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. KJV Genesis 7:23 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. KJV Genesis 9:2 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air (hashaamaayim), upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. KJV Deuteronomy 28:25-26 25 The Lord shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air (hashamaayim), and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away. KJV And, that's just a SAMPLING of the verses from the OT. Four hundred twenty one times the word is used, and NOT ONE of those occurrences has to be from some "God's abode" other than our sky! From the NT, we have... Matthew 16:1-4 1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (ek tou ouranou). 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (ho ouranos) is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (ho ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (tou ouranou); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. KJV The Pharisees and Sadducees wanted a "sign from the ouranos." Yeshua` GAVE THEM ONE! "Red sky (ouranos) at night, a sailor's delight; red sky (ouranos) at morning, sailors take warning!" They wanted a sign from the place YOU say God is; what Yeshua` gave them was what they were actually asking for!

I agree with the verses ,, but sadly I have been guilty of being most of them , some of them frequently. Praise God, that he loved me enough to send his Son our precious Saviour Jesus, to pick me up, a nasty , filthy creature like me . Wow, that's Love .

you are right even such simple terms as reflexive spatial inversions can be misconstrued to mean so many different things that people may even think you are saying planets revolve around themselves and are not actually stationary in a multiple matrix plasma

What does God say about the OT and the Mosaic covenant? Tim 3:16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. All scripture includes the OT, which contains the Mosaic covenant, which is scripture inspired by God and profitable for teaching etc. It is written that the man of God can be equipped for every good work. Romans 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. The OT and the Mosaic covenant is not an 'empty shell' as you have said. Scripture disagrees with you. You might want to read some of the Psalms. Psalm 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord, And in His law he meditates day and night. We know how God was pleased with King David. Nothing God gives should ever be called an 'empty shell'.

Since God Himself tells us that the Mosaic Covenant became null and void the moment Christ said "It is finished", God Himself declared it to be that which decayeth, and waxeth old, and is ready to VANISH AWAY (Heb 8:13).

Hi Marilyn. To him that overcomes, that's the centre of what its all about. There are many blessing God has promised those who overcome. I will mention a few; We will be a pillar in God's temple (Rev. 3:12). We will have God's name upon us (Rev. 3:12). We will be Kings and priests with Him (Rev. 1:6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. We will have power over nations (Rev. 2:26-27). We will receive the Crown of eternal life (Rev. 2:10 ; 3:11).

I would not call the Mosaic covenant an empty shell since it was given by God. That to me demeans God. Nothing God did was an empty shell. Since Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people, and Judaism includes the promise of the Messiah, along with prophesies about the Jewish people coming to Jesus, Judaism as the religion of the Jewish people, does and will include Jesus.

Off Topic, but this must be answered Scripturally; Turn to Genesis, chapter one. God had been busy for a number of days during that re-creation week, making various CREATURES of the land, sea, and air. Nothing is said about them having the form of God Himself. After all those creatures were created notice what God says in verses 26,27, "....Let us MAKE MAN in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS.. ..So God created MAN in His OWN IMAGE, in the IMAGE OF GOD created he him; male and female...." Right at the very beginning of the Bible, the Eternal God tells us that He created mankind in, not the likeness or image of the angels or any other spirit being, but He formed and gave mankind the IMAGE or LIKENESS of HIMSELF. God took the dirt of the ground and molded the shape and form of man from it to resemble the image or shape of very GOD. God first revealed Himself in a mighty way to Moses from the burning bush. From that time on the Eternal and Moses were friends with a "buddy-buddy" relationship. This relationship between the Lord and Moses was so personal that it is recorded, "And the Lord spoke unto Moses FACE to FACE, as a man speaks unto a friend...."(Ex.33:11). Now our "no body" for God teachers will say either this is just a metaphor or God appeared as a human, but when in the "spirit" He has no body or face. Of course that is the answer they will give to any section of scripture where God appeared to men. But there was a time when God appeared to Moses IN THE SPIRIT FORM - the Lord opening up his eyes to see Himself in the spirit dimension, that the human eye can not usually see, Read the example of the servant of Elisha in 2 Kings 6. So close a relationship did Moses have with God that Moses was so bold as to ask the Lord to show Himself to him, not as a human but as He really IS. Moses' request is found in Exodus 33:18. Notice the reply from the Eternal: "....You can not SEE MY FACE; for no man can see me and live."(verse 20). God did not say to Moses that He did not have a body and so did not have a face and so could not show Himself in the spirit form as having a shape. To the CONTRARY, the answer to Moses SHOWS CLEARLY GOD DOES HAVE A FACE AND BODY! He told Moses that no man could look upon the face of God in spirit form and live. How simpler can the word of God be in this matter? No theological degree needed to understand this verse, just believe it for what it says. In Exodus 33 18, Moses asked God to show him His Glory. "And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory." And God said to Moses; "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; etc. God also said to Moses, "Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." Exodus 33:18-20. God told Moses, "I will show you my BACK parts,". So if God has BACK PARTS it stands to reason He must have FRONT PARTS as well Moses asked to see God's glory as expressed in His face or countenance, not to see His face apart from His glory. That Moses could have seen God's literal face is clearly stated in verse 11, where it says, "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face as a man speaketh unto his friend, and that he had seen Gods glory in a limited sense is clear from Exodus 16:10; and 24:17; so the request was for something he had not yet seen. Many others have also seen Gods face and spirit body apart from the glory of God. God has a Spirit body, We know what He looks like because, besides the hundreds of Scriptures which plainly and accurately describe God, Jesus told us what He looks like. He sent Jesus His only begotten Son, and He said; He that has seen Me has seen the Father John 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Psalm 2:7, I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:33, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Hebrew 1:5, For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son. The Word, who became flesh and was begotten of the Father looks like His Father, and we who were made by Him, in His image and likeness, look just like He does. Gen 1:26, And God said, Let us make man IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Now God surely knows what He looks like or these words and every other word He utters in His entire Word are totally meaningless. By the way, my sons and grandsons look just like me, and so it goes.

They are revealed in the New Testament -- both the Day of the LORD (for the unbelieving and the ungodly, and also called "the day of vengeance of our God") and the Day of Christ (for the saints).

Since Retro believes that Heaven is the sky and God's Heaven is a *mythical place*, there would be little to gain by discussing Heaven with him.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. And how did Christ fulfil the Law and the Prophets? 1. All Messianic prophecies for His first coming were fulfilled perfectly (as they will for His second coming) 2. Jesus was the only man who kept the Law perfectly - He had no sin and He did no sin. 3. Jesus became the Lamb of God, and brought an end to the sacrificial system, including the Temple. 4. Christ was made a Curse and Sin for us by hanging on the tree. 5. Christ said "It is finished" on the Cross, thus fulfilling the Law and the Prophets. 6. Christ rose from the dead, thus making Him both Lord and Christ. These are the facts which must be wholeheartedly accepted by every Jew.

It's more than that. It means "the religion of the Jewish people WITHOUT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST". Thus an empty shell.

Jamison, Faucet and Brown's commentary puts it this way: Why is it that, seeing that the times of punishment (Eze 30:3; “time” in the same sense) are not hidden from the Almighty, they who know Him (His true worshippers, Job 18:21) do not see His days (of vengeance; Joe 1:15; 2Pe 3:10)? Or, with Umbreit less simply, making the parallel clauses more nicely balanced, Why are not times of punishment hoarded up (“laid up”; Job 21:19; appointed) by the Almighty? that is, Why are they not so appointed as that man may now see them? as the second clause shows. Job does not doubt that they are appointed: nay, he asserts it (Job 21:30); what he wishes is that God would let all now see that it is so. In my words," Why doesn't God show us when He will avenge all the wrong in this world?" For us that time seems to be on the horizon. Job was one of the earliest books written. Some believe it was before Noah. God is not dilly dallying around. He is very patient, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Tell me: What is so important about the gem stones that you would disregard what the text SAYS? Revelation 4:1-3 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. KJV The jasper and sard stone describe HIM, the One who sits on the throne, not the throne itself! And, Yochanan said "LIKE" a jasper and a sard stone! He was comparing the two (or three) things in COLOR! And, the rainbow also is not about the throne directly; it's the AURA surrounding the throne, not the throne itself! And Yochanan again said, "in sight LIKE unto an emerald," again comparing the COLOR of this aura with that of an emerald. Furthermore, the text later says, Revelation 5:6-7 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. KJV This passage clearly CONTRASTS the Lamb (who is obviously the Messiah Yeshua`) with the One who sits on the throne (from whom the Lamb takes the book)! Therefore, the passage in Rev. 4 is NOT talking about Christ's (the Messiah's) throne at all! Be careful not to fall prey to an allegorical spirit; most of the things you read have NOTHING TO DO WITH SYMBOLISM!

I look at energy from a scientific perspective tempered by my understanding of the Bible as the Holy Spirit has illuminated it for me. Every new breakthrough in science reinforces my belief in God and His power and how everything is held together by His will. The one exception to that is the Theory of Evolution, of course. My beliefs are easy to explain even to those who disagree with them. Maybe I'm just too set in my beliefs to understand yours.

The angel never says the 8th is a monarchial kingdom, i.e. under the rule of a king. It simple states “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” So whether that signifies the eighth empire, (for that is what “mountains’ prophetically represent in scriptures,) is a conglomeration of the whole or sum of the seven, or simply a direct result of the seventh, we cannot tell. Here are just a few scriptures to confirm what is being prophetically implied through the angel’s use of the word “mountain” in his interpretation of the seven heads to John. Why people want to make them mere“hills” is beyond me… Jeremiah 51:24 - And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD. 25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. Zechariah 4:7 - Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. Daniel 2:35 - Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:45 - Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. Amos 4:1 - Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink. Amos 6:1 - Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came! As we can tell from the scriptures above, all these mountains have had a direct correlation with Israel, which like the beast “was, is not, yet is” today. That is not to say the beast, or the eighth is Israel, but rather the succession of empires noted as the seven leading up to the eighth are historically connected directly to Israel. So when Israel was destroyed as a functioning empire with geographical boundaries recognized by other nations and “was not,” the beast also “was not.” And who can ignore the fact that when Israel was rebirth in her own land that was then called Palestine; which was under the United Kingdom’s sovereignty and King George VI only live 4 short years longer?

I think he is saying Jesus is the Holiest that gets anointed. I agree, but it happens at the end, right before he is declared King of Kings on this earth to rule for 1000 years. I could be wrong, but his highlighted word led me to think he was trying to point that out. I think he says it happened 2000 years ago, God Bless happy fathers day to all today.

Judaism simply means the religion of the Jewish people. From a Jewish believer view point, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, prophesied in the OT to the Jewish people first. The religion of the Jewish people, Judaism, should include Jesus as the promised Messiah, therefore, belief in Jesus is Judaism (Messianic Judaism). A belief which should be the belief of the Jewish people.

Hi Serving I looked at all those scriptures over and over, and I can't see what has particularly jumped for you comparing those two verses in Mark, to all of those scriptures in Hebrews. Only this jumps out at me so far. I went and read that chapter in Mark 16, and Jesus spoke to the 11 apostles after he rose from the dead - for Judas was not there, and the other new apostle not yet elected. Yet we know the Lord was with them for 40 days after his resurrection, Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: yet it says Jesus was received up into heaven "AFTER HE SPOKE TO THEM", and sat on the right hand of God (until I make your enemies your footstool), .....in other words, sit here for a while then you can come back down again and won't be on God's right hand, but IN CHARGE. .....SO, Christ died, and was resurrected. He showed himself to the apostles that night, then went up to the Father. He came back down again and was with the apostles for 40 days, seen by many. Yet, he was told to sit at God's right hand until God had made his enemies his footstool (under him).....so if he came back for those 40 days, then his enemies had been already made his footstool, put under him. Are you seeing this as the time Satan and his angels were thrown out of heaven? I never thought of it like that, but If so, what does it have to do with Hebrews is my question except for those two verses in Hebrews Chapter 10 ...... 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. Please do share! I don't think I see what you are seeing, but regardless it raises some other questions to solve.

Sometimes people post these kind of threads to bring on disagreement and try to bring on angry debates.

Please post scripture to support this 'well defined all'.

All is well defined, take Scripture at it Word. 1/3 of Mankind are killed, 2/3's remain (this is the Rest of Mankind). And they continue to ........ In Christ Montana Marv

Not sure how you arrive at your conclusion. It looks like an argument, or two, is missing. For instance, you need to have a connector between the behavior you present(truth), the groups in question,(truth), the time space/moment(undefined), intent of the passage(undefined), and the conclusion. It's like you are saying, "I see a black dog, Labradors are black, therefore it's Labrador." Which is false because of the assumption that all black dogs are Labradors. The assumption of Pre Trib in the above is the unbelievers are in the time period known as 'great tribulation'. The error here is that Pre Trib says, "All the 70th week is defined as 'tribulation'." A false assumption.

But that's not really true, is it? That's like saying there are three right answers to 2+2=N. I could agree that people can make a biblical case for a personal or corporate view, but making a case does not result in ultimate truth.

First realize know and believe that God is indeed "there" even though you haven't heard from him yet. Second just keep right on praying in faith believing God will answer them. Seek and ye shall find keep seeking Him until you find him. Ye have not because ye ask not, keep on asking in faith if you stop asking then you can't expect to get anything. Sometimes our prayers can be amiss, check to see if you are praying the will of God. Ask forgiveness if there is any unconfessed sins in your life as confession will restore any broken fellowship there may be and bring confidence to approach God with our petitions. Knock and it shall be opened unto you, keep on knocking on heaven's door in faith believing and doors will be opened unto you. My advice is simply to keep on praying, believing in faith and looking for the answer sometimes the answers we seek don't always come in the way we expect them too. Be careful you don't overlook your answers. blessings oc

Blessings Fed up I see it as "knowing what you know" because you have become firmly established in Gods Word,your Position of Victory & all because you have matured and have a Relationship with our Lord ,, Not much more than what Willa & Walla have already just said ,,(that's cute Willa & Walla-lol) Most "new" Christians go through a period of many 'feelings",they just about want to explode & shout from every rooftop because of these new,exciting & electrifying experiences,,,,,,,I think it can be compared to a child learning new things with the parents by their side or holding their hand,they feel bold & confident to "walk", just because they "feel" the hands that they have come to depend on with surety because of the RElationship they have with their mommy or daddy......when the child first learns how to ride a bike their parents put on training wheels & for the first time out they rely on the parent holding t7he bike as they pedal,,,,,before you know it,you are peddling & can "feel" the stability of the training wheels,,,,,before long the child pedals out of sight because 'he knows what he knows" That is my experience,I used to "feel" the electrifying Presence of the Holy Spirit,I became so reliant on those "feelings" that when they stopped I almost felt I was missing or straying out of Relationship with my Jesus,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it was of course the complete opposite,it was time for me to really begin to study more & learn to 'listen",learn how to wait on the Lord and graduate to a higher level of maturity,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,God was trusting ME to believe Him at His Word and draw even CLOSER....................it is growing pains ,that is how i see it,,,,,,trust in God ,keep on talking to Him every moment & pray without seeking,He doesn't say anything when you should 'know what you know" Glory to God! With love-in Christ,Kwik

You are facing a very serious situation. It would be best to sit down with your pastor/elder (s) and talk about this.

Blessings Lizzina,,,,, Welcome to Worthy sweet Sister, I'm so sorry for your struggle,it must be heart wrenching for you,,,,,,b ut God is w4ith you dear one & He will NEVER LEAVE YOU nor will He forsake you You tell us that your husband is Christian but I find that hard to relate to,personally God does not "give life" with out a Plan & Purpose for that child,He is Your Provider,He is your God,your Lord,your All in All,,,,,,,,,,,,,,does tyour husband not know the Scriptures? Does he not trust God for Provision,for the means & ability to supply all that you,he & your family will ever need?I see a lack of trust there on his part,imo,,,,,,,,,,,,,others suggested you consider adoption to accommodate your husbands demands,,,,really? If I,as a Christian,was Blessed by God with yet another life placed in my care then I would simply trust Him to help me,as He Will,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I think you should remind your husband of Who he is in Christ,,,,,,you both need to pray TOGETHER and become of like mind and judgment ,,,,,to do Gods Will,,,,, Yes,A Christian man is supposed to be head of household but not above Christ,our Head......there is nothing wrong with a wife to remind him of Who we serve & obey,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see a Pastor or good Christian counselor,mostly seek God TOGETHER With love-in Christ,Kwik

Note in the top section of the chart the 7 or 8 kingdoms as decribed in the Bible. The last one is of the seven. This is how the beasts are arranged. The lion, bear, leopard, the dreadful beast, the horns in Daniel. In Revelation the same themes are picked up. The first beast of Rev 13 is the Papacy, the second is the US. The beast out of the bottomless pit in chapter 11 is France. From this stems communism, which ends up disappearing, while at the same time becoming globally absorbed through socialistic and draconian anti terrorist laws/ideologies. There are the seven beasts/heads which we are supposed to think about when it says "five are fallen, one is and the other is not yet come" Five fallen, includes the bear, lion, leopard, dreadful beast, and the papal power, which had a deadly wound but survives it and heals. Note the little papal horn power lives until the end. "One is" the US, and "the other is not yet come" - the world revolution (out of the bottomless pit), the scarlet beast.

Nice post, I have a blog on this very subject and my reasoning/thinking is the same. The 8th King is "of the seven" and goes into perdition, this can only be Satan, he was of all seven Beast Systems so to speak because he is the god of this world, but he ruled in absentia because he is in heaven accusing the brethren. So he was, but was not, yet is, because he will be cast out of Heaven by Michael and will possess the 7th King or Anti-Christ, and is given power to overcome the Saints 42 months. God Bless sister.

Yes. You have made a time line. I disagree with at least portions of it, as did in my post. The beast rises in the beginning of the week or shortly before it begins. But I'll check out the new thread.

Diaste, do you know what the difference is between what you are saying and what I am saying ? I have put all of the timeframes of the end times events in order, and you have not. It you did, that is when you would start seeing the conflicts in what you are now saying. I made a thread on all of the timeframes.

May I ask, where are you reading that this wound have a time correlation which "signals the near beginning of the last week?"