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  1. The very first lie recorded in the Bible was the devil, speaking through the serpent when he was talking to Eve. "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Genesis 3:4. The devil has been deceiving people ever since with this lie. "Once saved always saved", is another lie from Satan and people have been believing it for years and will be sadly surprised in the judgment. If we continue in sin, after we have asked Jesus to be our personal Savior, are we really in a saved relationship, are we converted? "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26. Most people who believe the teaching once saved always saved will quote the following Bible verse as proof: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38, 39. Now this is a wonderful Bible promise that God has given us and it should inspire us all. But does it say once a person is born again, it is impossible for him to lose his way and be lost? In fact, is this verse talking about salvation or eternal life at all? No, this verse is clearly talking about God's unconditional love towards man, not unconditional salvation. Salvation is conditional! You might also notice that the word "sin" was not included in the list of things which are unable to separate us from the love of God.
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  2. And that makes their spirits alive, and capable of communicating with God and understanding spiritual things. On the other hand, unbelievers have a spirit which is dead and needs to be quickened or made alive (Eph 2:1,5). And you hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins; ... Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) We were obviously not dead, but we all were "dead in sins" until the New Birth. That relates to the deadness of the spirit, not the soul.
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  3. I have not departed from the faith. I have provided Scriptures where Paul warns believers not to depart from the faith, nothing more.
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  4. Gen 2:17 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. KJV When Adam went from clay to Living being Gen 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. KJV That breath was of The Holy Spirit which placed Life into the dirt and Adam became living s/Spirit in fellowship with God in innocence... When Adam sinned The Holy Spirit left His place in Adam and man's spirit became separated = dead to the things of God except by creative witness and external communication through senses. Love, Steven
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  5. They have a spirit and a soul just as we do, and they need Jesus just as we did when we were unbelievers. They too just as we are, are eternal.
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  6. Jesus said "If any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book". Jesus also said "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." And elsewhere, Jesus says, "whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." Again, Paul says , "we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us." Osas supporters. Thoughts with regards to this?
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  7. You think that the city water supply saves a soul? Your theology is an insult to the Blood of Christ that was shed to save us. Maybe you need to speak to the "other" thief on the cross who Jesus took to paradise with Him, and never baptized this person in water. Maybe you need to learn that the teaching of "baptismal regeneration" is a lie from hell, is a Blood Atonement denying blasphemy, and its taught by a cult that is no better. So, now i understand why you never talk about the Cross or the blood of Christ or being born again, with regards to REDEMPTION..... You actually think that the water from the city water supply, that ither sprinked you or covered your face has some mystical power to save you. Thats truly unfortunate theology, and its truly not the way that God saves and redeems a soul.
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  8. You keep insisting that striving to walk by the Spirit and not gratify the flesh somehow earns salvation. It doesn't; I don't believe The Catholic faith teaches that. Baptism is the means to be reborn again, yet by choosing to be baptized, you aren't earning salvation. Baptism is merely, by faith, obeying a command from the Lord.
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  9. Ah, but I do know about Strong's---I have kjv with Strong on my iphone and used it frequently for years. I knew that the Isaiah 45:7 was referring to calamity and not moral evil. I'm glad that we can agree that we need an authority, something or someone to help us interpret scripture for us.
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  10. You are obviously trusting in works (abiding) (enduring) (taking communion) (confession), as the way to keep yourself saved. Instead, trust in the one who died for you, put yourself in His Grace, as once you finally do that, you wont have to continue to both teach Galatians 1:8 "works" as salvation, as well as try to save yourself by y0ur works, which by the way, isnt possible.
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  11. Jesus says in John 15:6-7, 9-10. "Abide in me." John says 1 John 2:6. "Abide in Him." Paul says to walk by the Spirit. This requires free will to co-operate with the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:16. I sense that you have the notion that freely walking with the Holy Spirit and and willfully not gratifying the flesh somehow earns something. It doesn't. Actually, the scripture says that the soul that sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:20). Did God suddenly change his mind and say that the soul that sins shall not die? God says those who transgress against others break faith with him.(Numbers 5:6) Do you believe that you wouldn't be breaking faith with God by murdering someone, or committing adultery, or blaspheming the Lord? The tradition of men in Protestant circles says that one cannot break faith with God under the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved, yet Numbers 5:6 clearly says one who transgresses against another breaks faith with God. For we walk by faith(2 Corinthians 5:7) and are saved by faith(Ephesians 2:8), but not by faith alone. Luther added "alone" to the text of the verse Ephesians 5:7 in his translation of the Bible.
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  12. Had you consulted Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, you would have discovered that the Hebrew word which was translated as "evil" actually means calamities. And God certainly creates all kinds of natural calamities. As to associating evil with God, please note (James 1:13; 1 John 1:5): Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:...This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
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  13. The tried and true bible for centuries is the Latin Vulgate, long before the King James Version existed; The Douay-Rheims english bible existed before the King James Version. I still haven't heard from anyone my points I've brought up about how the Bible literally says God creates darkness and evil in response to you saying the bible literally says "ye may know." Shall we go by a literal reading of the bible in this context, or, shall we refer to an authority who can correctly interpret the text for us. What is you authority to interpret the text: The Bible alone?
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  14. You cant be "unborn again". Salvation creates you to be a member of a heavenly family....and you cant end this BIRTH relationship by behavior anymore then you can stop being your mother's son by being a bad son or a good one. BIRTH= is what Salvation achieves, and you can take it back by being a horrible human being. You would just be a horrible SAVED human being, and millions are...
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  15. I think it's all based on the Lord's ability to hold someone. If the bible says he will keep us from falling and he is faitful then it's not my ability that I trust. Anywise I could never trust myself. Maybe five years from now I would change for the worst. He said he holds us in his hands.
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  16. As soon as you can find a verse in the NT that says you can be "unborn again", let us know. Good luck with that.
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  17. In the end people believe what the choose to believe, not what the evidence reveals, nor what is plainly stated in Scripture. So if you prefer to be insecure in your salvation then please enjoy it.
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  18. No, we are not talking about that....You are. You have this idea that "abiding" (doing it yourself) keeps you saved, which is of course is denying that its Jesus who keeps you saved.
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  19. The good news of Once Saved, Always Saved and Saved By Faith Alone is not part of orthodox, catholic nicene-christianity--it's a hetrodoxy that originates with the Protestant Reformation. I'd love to pull out all the stops and post the Catholic point-of-views but the thread would either be deleted or my post context deleted or the citations to the appologetic source material removed. So, I'm going to bow out of a discussion here on whether the Catholic teaching on salvation is right or wrong, but I do would like to continue discussing OSAS and expressing my personal opinion that it is a false notion---and seeing how people respond. I'm merely discussing the doctrine of OSAS here because I am a protestant investigating catholicism and I do find that I am being persuaded more-and-more about the truth of the catholic (including the Orthodox Church) take on scripture. Now, I do post arguments in here to see how other protestants do respond. For me, this is a matter of conscious. I hope you can understand. I'm not here to win an argument or be right or wrong. I am disappointed that I can't cite catholic appologetic material from online tracts and websites to see counter arguments to them without it being deleted, censored, erased and being brushed off as someone who has a false notion. Sure, feel free to dismiss my views, arguments and so on, but as it stands, I'm walking down the same path as men like Scott Hahn and Steve K. Ray. I still remain an evangelical protestant at the moment though.
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  20. Well, I sense that we aren't on the same page here on the topic of Eternal Security, so I'll quote carm to help me clear up any misunderstanding: "The three different terms (eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints) are often used interchangeably. However, there are subtle differences between them even though they basically mean the same thing--that a person cannot lose his salvation." https://carm.org/what-is-the-difference-between-eternal-security-once-saved-always-saved-and-perseverance-of-the-saints I am using Eternal Security and OSAS interchangibly. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding. In that context, I have shown examples that demonstrate that Calvin was in error.
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  21. John 5:13 doesn't proclaim Eternal Security. But, let's go with your logic here. The kjv literally says "that ye may know". Therefore, according to you it means Eternal Security Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version says literally thst God creates darkness and evil. " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." If we take the King James Version literally, are we to believe that God is a god of evil? Literally, the kjv text says God creates evil and darkness. Paul says in the kjv 2 Corinthians 6:14-17 " Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" My point is that 1 John 5:13 does not prove Eternal Security. It proves Eternal Security no better than an athiest using Isaiah 45:7 to prove that God is evil and is the creator of both moral evil and darkness.
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  22. It is never a bad idea to stick to the tried and true Bible which has been around for over 400 years, and to memorize some key verses. Try it sometime. Even if Calvin had never existed, the Bible would continue to proclaim the eternal security of the believer. Ezra--- thank you, I couldn't have said it better~~~~~~
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  23. It is never a bad idea to stick to the tried and true Bible which has been around for over 400 years, and to memorize some key verses. Try it sometime. Even if Calvin had never existed, the Bible would continue to proclaim the eternal security of the believer. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13 KJV).
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  24. Are you a King James-onlyist, then? Israel was God's chosen possession(Deut 7:6). We know how that turned out to be. Wicked servant had his debt forgiven, and he was not merciful to others afterwards. He was cast out. (Matthew 18:33). We remain in Jesus's love if we keep his commands. We do not remain in his love if we do not keep his commands.(John 15:10). Jesus says it's possible to not remain in him. He says "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. Jesus says the wicked servant can be punished and be put with hypocrites. (Matthew 24:51). Jesus said his servant can be judged as wicked and slothful, with his talent taken from him and given to someone else, with the worthless servant being cast out. (Matthew 25:26-30). OSAS is a false notion invented by Calvin. It's unbiblical. It is a false doctrine.
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  25. This is from the King James Authorized version, whether or not you want to bicker over an English version could make all the difference-- KJV may be harder for some people to understand, but its the most accurate,~~~ The Holy Spirit is the (Good faith Token) of our sin free eternal life (inheritance) until Jesus gives us our glorified bodies in the new age (redeems us) .He purchased us with his blood and he owns us~~ hence the purchased possession, we are his possession > He does this to his praise and glory If we had to maintain our own salvation it would bring us praise and Glory, but since Jesus maintains our salvation he gets the praise and glory. The translations you are quoting miss the importance of this verse-- most of the newer translations have a tendency to diminish the Person of Jesus and his Finished work through his blood, so which translation a person uses can affect their doctrine
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  26. I'm reading up on John 10. I do ask you a few things: Which other way do you think Jesus is referring to other than the door? Who is Jesus referring to as a thief and a robber in your opinion?
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  27. "1 John 5:12 12 He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life." Just to be clear, are we talking about those who abide, and continue to abide, in Jesus?
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  28. Ephesians 1:14: RSV "who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:14: ESV 14 who is the guarantee[a] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[b] to the praise of his glory. I'm not misquoting that verse. What version are you using. Are we going to quarrel over an english translation, because I do not desire to bicker over an english translation. I chose RSV because it is accepted by both Protestants and Catholics.
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  29. Jesus is your assurance of eternal life. If you have Him, you have eternal life.....1st John 5 The reason eternity is a fixed position for a believer, is because the Blood Atonement has removed what keeps them out of heaven.
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  30. eternal security of the believer is fact both in the hermeneutic and the redeemed who did not come by works... but there are many who try to come another way John 10:1 10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. KJV The entire rest of John 10 is the eternal security of the believer without question as The Word proclaims it... Love, Steven
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  31. 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. you are mis interpreting that verse
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  32. Shiloh, The parables of Jesus make it plain and clear that Calvin's doctrine of Eternal Security is an untrue interpretation. It's a false notion.
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  33. Ephesians 1:14 says The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance UNTIL WE ACQUIRE possession of it. It does not say you have acquired anything in this present time. Of course, it is a deposit for an inheritance so long as we do not dis-inherit ourselves!. The verse does not indicate a guarantee of Eternal Security; It does, however, indicate an assurance of security.
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  34. God said the soul that sins shall die. The Devil says the soul that sins shall not die. Who do you believe" Genesis 3:3, But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Genesis 3:4, And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
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  35. when one accepts Christ sacrifice as payment for their sins- they are forgiven-- Jesus Died once for sin-- all our sins are forgiven at once-- Jesus forgives the body of our sin-- its not a one sin at a time forgiveness-- the Roman Catholic Doctrine of the Eucharist requires a repeated sacrifice for sin-- if you believe each sin must be individually forgiven you crucify Christ anew for each sin you commit like in the Eucharist. Forgiveness is a one time event-- we must confess each sin to maintain a clear conscience and fellowship- but when we accept Christ all our sins are forgiven at once
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  36. you can deny Christ, as someone that has been saved, but you'll be reminded every minute of it. once you know Christ, even if you leave the faith for whatever reasons, you will never forget. i forget the verse of the Bible, but there's one that pretty much says that.
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  37. Psalm 103:3 which was written before the New Covenant says "He forgives all my sins and heals all my diseases." This does not say all future sins are forgiven. Colossians 2:13 says "He forgave us all our sins". This does not say all future sins are forgiven. Even after Jesus rose from the dead, he granted apostles the authority in John 20:23 to retain people's sin. I believe you are sadly mistaken to believe that a christian who is born again(baptismal regeneration) does not have he free will to rebel against God. What is your authority to interpret the scripture? We are both using the same bible when personally interpretting it. Paul himself says "I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it." He continues on to say that "I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus" as if he hadn't received it yet. Paul says in another of his latters "But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." It is a biblical fact that Paul believed it was possible for him to be disqualified and that he didn't consider himself having obtained anything just yet. Once saved does not mean eternally saved. Paul makes it clear believed it was possible to be disqualified and made sure to be diligent in how he conducted himself and was obedient to Jesus. I'm going to conclude my post with a remark from James: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"
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  38. Our New Testament teaches us that "Jesus is the author and finisher of our FAITH"... and that "God who began a good work (Salvation) in us will be FAITHFUL TO COMPLETE IT". So, once a believer is born again, then our redemption is completed........this is why we are Save(D)........= salvation is NOT temporary, as the Blood of Jesus is not a "temporary fix" of our sins. A lot of believers have this idea that their faith SAVES them, but actually GOD SAVED THEM, when they had a "decision moment" of Trust in Jesus. We dont keep ourselves saved by confessing sins and worrying about "do i still believe it", but rather God holds unto us......and this is called REDEMPTION <><> THE ATONEMENT.
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  39. But we do not believe such people will go unpunished or that they may suffer loss...even they may die...but they cannot be unborn again
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  40. But we do not believe such people will go unpunished or that they may suffer loss...even they may die...but they cannot be unborn again
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  41. You are just as saved, as you are "Born again". And if you can become "unborn again", ...... = Not going to happen. Salvation is not a part time situation, and it does not depend on you to keep it., as it was not you that created you to be saved.
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  42. Once saved always saved is a feel good doctrine that is going to lead a lot of would be saved people to death. You can be with the Father and by your own will depart and die a spiritual death. Read the Prodigal Son in Luke. We are not robots. God has given us the free will to choose right from wrong.
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  43. One can still become an apostate and choose to rebel against Jesus as their Lord and walk away from the faith. They could fall into temptation and decide they'd rather party and fornicate rather than live a life of celebacy before marriage, get killed, then they'd die in a state of sin---or even fall prey to evolutionary beliefs when attending University and decide the christian way is a falsehood to them and therefore not true, because they can't reconcile the theory of evolution with the story of Adam and Eve, and so decide to become an athiest; But according to OSAS, such a person would be eternally secure regardless.
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  44. Rom 6:23 is eternal life in Jesus Christ. I agree. But where in the verse does it say you are guaranteed eternal life? It doesn't. I have a response for you though: Where in the New Testament does it say all your future sins are forgiven before you even commit them?
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  45. Another good point. The New Birth is irreversible (John 1:12,13). Just like a baby cannot be unborn, a child of God cannot be unborn, but remains a child of God eternally.
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  46. The Scriptures you have quoted have no direct bearing on the eternal security of the believer. Since eternal life is God's gift to the sinner who repents and believes, it is eternally secure (Rom 6:23).
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  47. I'm looking forward to all the replied to see what people have to say.
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  48. It was 11 years before my husband was saved. I compromised and backslid for 7 of those years. Don't do that again. Pray every day for your wife's salvation. Become the godly husband Christ wants you to be. Be willing to lay down your life for her and don't participate in her sin. Become a servant in spirit, helping her and your parents whenever you see opportunity. Cleanse the house of everything pertaining to the occult, false gods, statues of them, illegal drugs, and dedicate you parents home to Christ's use. If you have children, you will not want them to be exposed to these things. That includes porn and much of what is on TV that is opposed to the teaching of God, that glorify sin or tempts you. Change channels or turn it off. My TV and internet have parental controls and I use these limits to keep from blundering into things I find offensive. If I don't want my kids to watch it, I don't want to watch it. Attend church regularly and invite your wife if she says anything. Read your Bible every day. Overcome evil with good.
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