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I'm not sure if anyone's been keeping track of "the great sign" in the heavens on 9/23/17, but here is what I've learned.. I've studied this sign for about two years now along with many others, and there are many viewpoints to consider in regards to this sign. The scriptures I use I will post at the bottom along with important videos and pictures. (1.) The sign in the heavens on 9/23/17 derives from Revelation 12:1-5, and it's actually called "a great sign". The words "great sign" only appear once in the entire Bible, which is in Rev 12:1. Luke 21:10-11 also mentions "great signs from heaven", so I do believe Luke 21 is connected to Rev 12. This great sign only appears once in human history. There are three heavens listed in scripture. The great sign appears in heaven, which is considered the first heaven where the sun, moon, stars and planets reside. In Genesis 1:14 God says he uses the sun, moon, stars and planets for seasons, days and years to let us know about future events that are about to unfold. The four blood moon tetrad landing on Jewish holidays in 2014-15 were basically harbingers (warning signs) pointing to the conception of ISIS in the spring/summer of 2014 and also it is pointing to 9/23/17. (2.) If you go to Leviticus 23 there are seven feasts of the Lord. The word "festival" in Hebrew is translated "moed" which means: appointed time, place, or meeting. The first four feasts have already been fulfilled by Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, and the last three are still future. Jesus fulfilled the first four feasts to the day literally, and the next feast on God's calendar is the Feast of Trumpets which is on 9/23/17 the same day the great sign appears in heaven. Each festival (an appointed time in history) represents an event Jesus fulfilled or will fulfill in the near future. The Feast of Trumpets represents the rapture of the church at the end of the church age, the age of Grace. 1. The Passover (God leads the Jews out of Egypt and slavery) 2. Unleavened Bread (The Death and Burial of Jesus Christ) 3. First Fruits (Resurrection of Jesus Christ) 4. Feast of Weeks/Pentecost (The beginning of the church age, Holy Spirit indwells believers) 5. Feast of Trumpets (The rapture of the church) 6. Day of Atonement (Jesus lands on the Mount of Olives and atones for the sins of Israel at the end of the 7 year tribulation) 7. Feast of Tabernacles (The 1,000 year reign with Christ) (3.) The word for rapture in Greek is translated "harpazo", and this word is found or is a part of the great sign of Rev 12:1-5 on 9/23/17. The word "harpazo" is in Rev 12:5 and also 1 Thess 4:17, both rapture verses. Now, this is where it gets interesting. Scripture uses a conception, gestation period, labor pains and birthing metaphor of a child being birthed in Rev 12:1-5. The closer the birth becomes the more intense the birth pains will be. That's why many eschatologists believe that not only will the rapture occur but also.. Gen 3:15-16, Isa 13:6-8, Isa 17:1, Isa 26:17-21, Jer 30:6-7, Jer 49:24, Daniel's 70th week in Dan 9:27 (Jacob's trouble), Micah 4:9-10, Micah 5:2-3, Psalm 83 war, Ezek chapters 38-39 war and 1 Thess 5:1-3 will all be fulfilled this year and in the following years. In Rev 12:1-5 the woman is Israel, the enormous red dragon is the antichrist system, and the child is the body of Christ (the church), three corporal entities. If you go to Rev 12:3 it says, "another sign appeared in heaven". This is what is called "Planet X or Nibiru", which Google and NASA are covering up, even though Planet X can be shown on infrared. (4.) If you study the birth of the church you will see Virgo giving birth to Jupiter in September of 2017. Jupiter is the king planet which represents Christ and also the body (the church) that is in Christ. When you become saved the Holy Spirit indwells you, and you become one with the body of Christ. God is using a birthing metaphor to describe the conception of the church 2,000 years ago, and He is also using a birthing metaphor in the end times by using the sun, moon, stars and planets. The conception of the church began at Pentecost 2,000 years ago and has been in gestation for 2,000 years up until now. Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and born again Christians are the body. The head came out of the womb when Jesus was resurrected and ascended to heaven 2,000 years ago. When you study a natural birth of a baby being born the head comes out first, then the body. The body of Jesus Christ which is the church (Jupiter) entered Virgo's womb in November of 2016 and is in a gestation period right now. The church will be birthed in September of 2017 which will be 42 weeks in the womb (a normal gestation period for a natural birth). I would also like to point out that Isa 66:7 is referring to when Israel in one day became a nation on 5/15/48 (on Pentecost to be precise), but it could also be alluding to rapture and Daniel's 70th week of tribulation; the amazing reversal as some eschatologists put it. Birth then labor pains, rapture then tribulation. It's good to keep this in mind when referring back to 9/23/17. Also, when Jupiter exits Virgo's womb it heads for Libra which in term means "Justice". Lastly, if you look at the Rev 12:1-2 sign below you will see a lion above the woman, in which the lion has a crown of 12 stars. The lion represents Leo, the lion of the tribe of Judah; the consummated triumph of the redeemer in the end. So anyways, this is what I've learned, and if anyone has any questions or concerns please let me know. Salvation scriptures can be found in John 3:3-7, John 3:16, John 14:6, Acts 4:12, Rom 6:23, Rom 10:9-10. This will be my only post about this date. - Heb 13:8 The Four Blood Moons Picture - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/_ijsFBSTD3Y/hqdefault.jpg Rev 12:1-2 Picture - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XXxVwpcXV0U/maxresdefault.jpg Rev 12:1-5 Picture - https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a81909d65c876227692f874e54d8336d92c5b13dc068068f5f134c7fee47b2b9.jpg Planet X Picture - http://godinanutshell.com/2017/01/17/red-dragon/ *** Links to YouTube have been removed. You may tell them the titles of the videos and where to find them, but no YouTube links are allowed. *** Gen 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years. Gen 3:15-16 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." 16To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Lev 23:1-2 The Lord said to Moses, 2“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘These are my appointed festivals (moed), the appointed festivals of the Lord, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies. Psa 83:5-8 With one mind they plot together; they form an alliance against you— 6the tents of Edom (Palestinians & Southern Jordanians) and the Ishmaelites (Saudis (Ishmael father of Arabs), of Moab (Palestinians & Central Jordanians) and the Hagrites (Egyptians (Hagar Egypt Matriarch), 7Byblos (Hezbollah & Northern Lebanese), Ammon (Palestinians & Northern Jordanians) and Amalek (Arabs of the Sinai Area), Philistia (Hamas of the Gaza Strip), with the people of Tyre (Hezbollah & Southern Lebanese). 8Even Assyria (Syrians and Northern Iraqi's) has joined them to reinforce Lot’s descendants. Isa 13:6-8 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. 7Because of this, all hands will go limp, every heart will melt with fear. 8Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame. Isa 17:1 A prophecy against Damascus: “See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins. Isa 26:17-21 As a pregnant woman about to give birth writhes and cries out in her pain, so were we in your presence, Lord. 18We were with child, we writhed in labor, but we gave birth to wind. We have not brought salvation to the earth, and the people of the world have not come to life. 19But your dead will live, Lord; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. 20Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. 21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed on it; the earth will conceal its slain no longer. Isa 66:7-9 “Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. 8 Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. 9 Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?” says the LORD. “Do I close up the womb when I bring to delivery?” says your God. Jer 30:6-7 Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale? 7How awful that day will be! No other will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it. Jer 49:24 Damascus has become feeble, she has turned to flee and panic has gripped her; anguish and pain have seized her, pain like that of a woman in labor. Dan 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." Micah 4:9-10 Why do you now cry aloud— have you no king ? Has your ruler perished, that pain seizes you like that of a woman in labor? 10Writhe in agony, Daughter Zion, like a woman in labor, for now you must leave the city to camp in the open field. You will go to Babylon; there you will be rescued. There the Lord will redeem you out of the hand of your enemies. Micah 5:2-3 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." 3Therefore Israel will be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor bears a son, and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites. Luke 21:10-11 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. 1 Thess 4:13-17 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thess 5:1-3 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

That logic only flies in liberalland, hmbld. You know where the snowflakes and reality deniers live? It boggles my mind that anyone would not know that both campaigns were surveilled. The FBI is lying through it's government issue teeth.

Blessings nonamenight WE have not seen you in a while since you asked this question......it seems the Thread has gotten off Topic a bit,I believe everyone agrees that "yes" we are forgiven.........did you get the information you were looking for? With love-in Christ,Kwik

Blessings Jeff Welcome to Worthy.....I've heard this argument many times & I don't mean that in a negative way,some very brilliant people debate this very same Topic and it can be quite a contoversial issue,however,I do agree with Willa.....to compare Gods Word to mans penal theory is indeed "logical ",it stands to reason in our finite minds ,,,but thank God we have His Holy Spirit to Reveal to us His Timeless Truth... I don't know about you but my sins were deserving of the death sentence,if I were to write them down then "no where" would it be written that I committed murder but I surely had the sin in my cold hard heart etc,,,etc,,, No where in the Scriptures does it say "Trinity"but the idea is there ,as Willa put it......Jesus took my place on the cross & my spirit will be Redeemed when it comes time and all in Christ are Risen because Jesus has bought & paid the ransom...I am forgiven.....I believe I worded that the way I meant to,I surely hope so,lol Anyway,I do believe you believe Salvation is by Gods Grace,through our Faith in the Knowledge of WHO Jesus is,that through Him our sins are forgiven and we are RECONCILED back to our Heavenly Father.....so,since that is probably not the issue at hand can I assume you are trying to make some point? Please do tell me what it is because I honestly don't see one except whether or not the Scriptures actually do say "paid" & what was the other one,can't seem to find your other reply?Oh,"punishment".....the actual question of the OP ,......sure sounds like punishment tome With love-in Christ,Kwik

Oh yeah.

Compassion is a wonderful trait when sprinkled with equal parts of wisdom. Without wisdom, it can be a recipe for suicide. Blessings, -Ed

angels (good or bad) do not possess people. The disembodied spirits of the dead Nephilim is what possesses people, not angels. And there are no good Nephilim

That's pathetic. The difference between refugee Jews and criminal illegal alien trespassers is obvious to everyone else.

A legion is said to be somewhere around 6,500. a legion, a body of soldiers whose number differed at different times, and in the time of Augustus seems to have consisted of 6826 men (i.e. 6100 foot soldiers, and 726 horsemen)

Demons possess those who do not have the Holy Spirit, unbelievers. Gods angels never possess anyone. Only the Holy Spirit can live in those who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.

A lot of this is caused by people moving away and registering in their new location and by people dying and not being removed from the rolls. I thought about it and, as far as I know, I'm still registered in Oakland County, Michigan as well as here. I never gave a thought to my old address until right now. I think if someone doesn't show up to vote three times in a row, their name should be removed. Simple.

No, problem sis

That But he was pierced for our transgressions, and he was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5 (New Heart English Bible) House Of Cards In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace Ephesians 1:7 (New International Version) Turns Out To Be The Holy For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days. 1 Pete 1:18-20 (New Living Translation) Priceless Blood Of The Lamb Of God And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5 (American King James Version) ~ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible) Love, Your Brother Joe ~ Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible) The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed. Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents. From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

Voter fraud is an issue of course. People balk at the idea of voter fraud but notice they don't have a problem showing ID for all manner of things wherein ID is required otherwise?

Remember always that God is sovereign. He answers when He wills, and how He wills. I long ago learned that God answers prayers 3 ways. 1. YES. You will get what you ask for and quickly. 2. NO. This is not God's will for whatever reason and He has something else in mind for you. 3. LATER. You will get what you ask but its not time yet. Remember please that God is not our servant. WE are HIS

I am not surprised in the least

Shalom, I want to detail the importance of forgiveness and its practical application in real life circumstances. Mat 18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" Mat 18:22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times. Mat 18:23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. Mat 18:24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. The first question we need to address is how much is 10,000 talents? In layman's terms it's about $3 billion dollars. Mat 18:25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. Mat 18:26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' Mat 18:27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. Mat 18:28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, 'Pay what you owe.' The second question that arises is how much is a 100-denarii? It's about $3 dollars! Mat 18:29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' Mat 18:30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. Mat 18:31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. Mat 18:32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Mat 18:33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' Mat 18:34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. Let me pull it up in different translations. "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him." Mat 18:35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart." So how often shall we forgive? Basically as often as we need to! Why? Because each and every one of our sins has been forgiven by our God if we ask! So often we forget what this means? What do you suppose it means to be delivered to the tormentors? What are the tormentors of unforgiveness? Bitterness, resentment, anger, animosity, irritability, hatred, spite, hostility, to name a few! These are the results of unforgiveness! And people wonder why they are bound up? It's based on this principle of unforgiveness! The enemy of our souls would love for you to "JUSTIFY" your unforgiveness -- so that he can BIND you up so that you are INEFFECTIVE for the KINGDOM of God! Once you comprehend this principle, then let's understand how to apply it in practical means. We ALREADY KNOW that we're going to be SINNED AGAINST! It's not a hypothesis -- it's a fact. But if you already know that you will be sinned against -- then you can already work out in your mind to forgive those who sin against you -- and it makes it easier to pray for those who sin against you! Do you want to walk in freedom? Then walk your life in the Spirit of forgiveness -- never allowing the enemy to get even a foothold in your life! Your brother in the Lord with much agape love, George

Shalom, I was going through my old notebook and saw that I wrote down this forum site quite a while ago, but I don't recall ever sending in a topic, well, I would like to contribute now that I found it again. I am a messianic rabbi and I write every week a "parasha" which is a commentary on some scriptures from the Torah, the Prophets, and New Testament, I have been doing this for years, I would just like feedback from one of the moderators just where on this website I could place the weekly commentaries, I usually write them on the sabbath I am also a short story writer, where could I place my short stories? is there a place for them? thanks for reading this rabbi Ben Avraham

You asked this and I gave you an answer so that should be the end of it...yes? "So if the only way to heaven is through a personal faith, than how can a baby be saved? How can the baby go to heaven? i don't want to start a baptism debate. I'm just asking how can a baby achieve salvation when it is unable to accept Jesus as its savour"?

I gave you scripture. Now please give me scripture that says babies are not saved and will go to hell when they die if they are not baptized.

It might take decades to forgive but we must do it to be forgiven

Sure! Why not? There are truly fine, and I mean really outstanding, actions of generosity and healing,with the opening and maintaining of wonderful hospitals that we see advertised on cable tv every day, that have as their underlying base a absolute cult with a mimicking and or denial of our Lord Jesus. Proving (least to me) that evil can and does do "good works". Why if the antichrist is to bring peace will he not be known for healings too? I suspect he will be.

Blessings Jacob WElcome to Worthy......the Seekers Lounge is for unbelievers,seekers & guests to ask questions about our Faith.......no one is ignoring you,we are very glad you have joined us & I sent you some posting info in PM(envelope icon)....... With love-in Christ,Kwik

Try praising God in all circumstances. Do it aloud if you can or under your breath if you must. God is always worthy of our praise. We can trust Him to use all things to work together for our good--He will be victorious and bring about the desired fruit it us. God inhabits the praises of His people and this causes the enemy to flee. Moreover, when you remember how great our God is, your faith is built up.

She says that she doesn't support anyone making choices for other people when it comes to personal issues. I wouldn't take her position because I believe abortion is legalized murder. But I understand what she's saying. Tomi is one of the most conservative voices out there and, hopefully, she will find her way. She's only 24 and her views will probably change just as all of ours did. I will not stop watching her and listening to her because she doesn't agree with me on ONE issue. Condemning her for differing on one issue would make ME no better than the dark left that allows no dissent from their radical agenda.

I absolutely agree, Shiloh. Abortion SHOULD be illegal. But we have to deal with the situation as it is and the government needs to get out of all of our lives. Tomi is making the point that while she doesn't support abortion, she doesn't feel she OR the government should be dictating personal issues for anyone.

"works" are "discipleship". Discipleship is what follows salvation, not what activates it, achieves it, provides it, or maintains it.. You do "good works".....you are "careful to maintain good works" because you are now REPRESENTING GOD, as His 'Son of God". Jesus went about "doing good works".....and WE, as "Son's of God", are to do the same because we ARE Sons of God. So, behave accordingly = "works". James, is referring to doing works so that others can see them....... You do works before man, but you offer Faith before God. Faith, God accepts to SAVE YOU, but works God does not accept to save you. "Works", "good works", in the sense of Christian Discipleship, are exactly like being in the Army and you march and you wear a uniform and you take orders.......Its what you do because you are IN the Army, but wearing the uniform or marching, (works) are useless unless you are signed up. Salvation, is being "sign up", its being forgiven, its being redeemed.....and the official uniform you wear that designates you as "enlisted" in God's family.....is that you do good works. its what you do.......but you are not doing them to BE saved......you are doing them because you ALREADY ARE SAVED.

Shalom, welcome brother! God bless you!

Hebrews 11:1Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) Heroes of Faith 11 Now faith is the reality[a] of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen. Footnotes: Hebrews 11:1 Or assurance Hebrews 11:1 Or conviction 2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make every grace overflow to you, so that in every way, always having everything you need, you may excel in every good work. Matthew 5:16 16 In the same way, let your light shine[a]before men, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven. Footnotes: Matthew 5:16 Or way, your light must shine [ Praying in Jesus’ Name ] “I assure you: The one who believes in Me will also do the works that I do. And he will do even greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. Romans 2:6 He will repay each one according to his works: Around John 6:28 Jesus was asked What can we do to perform the works of God? Not a quote so read it. Jesus called believing in Him works. So i agree whole heartedly with james, faith is pretty much dead with out works. without works in faith you haven't believed in Christ because Christ is the evidence of the unseen and believing in him is a work pleasing to God.

I know of no passage that says that Jesus was "punished" or that anything was "paid" in the Atonement. Having said that, it would be wrong to impose upon the meaning of Atonement that which the Bible has never stated. The original question was, "Is there forgiveness"? If I stand before a Judge, He has to power to pardon or to punish me for my crimes. If someone comes in and "pays the penalty", and the Judge accepts that payment as sufficient, he does not pardon me, but allows me to go because the penalty is satisfied. A Judge can either pardon or punish/ not both. If a full-satisfaction punishment is accepted, there is nothing left to forgive. This theological assertion leads to people either being Atoned for and inevitably saved, and those not Atoned for ultimately lost without any genuine offer of hope. While exceptionally popular as a theory, it was developed to support the conclusions of the Calvinistic theory. There are many objections to the theory which are not Biblical. There are many negative results that the theory inevitably brings us to, but the essential objection is that such language is nowhere stated in Scripture that establishes the doctrine, or that one should draw any dogmatic conclusion from the theory they may append to it. This unhappy truth is troubling to many because they build their theological house of cards on these concepts being a reality. Would it not be better to draw one's conclusions on what is said, instead of what is never said?

Thanks, but no one has answered my question yet, under which "sub forum" or "area of the forum" could I place the commentaries, and also short stories?

There are many approaches to faith and works, many of which tend to pit James against Paul. I believe that the emphasis of either/or creates a false dilemma. On one end we have Paul urging us to avoid "earning" or own salvation; on the other, we have James stating that a fruitless faith is no saving faith at all. They are not opposed to each other, but both are speaking the truth. John 15:4-6 Genuine saving faith always results in fruit. "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine: no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: For without me ye can do nothing." God works in and through us; we get rewarded for being His means. "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation." What "good"? Not merit, but a reward for having "done good." The source? Being in the Vine (Christ). John 5:28-29 Paul includes both is we do not make the error of ripping it out of context. Many quote Ephesians 2:8-9 , which states, "For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Yet leaving off verse 10, making Paul contradict James. But Paul continues... "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." We are Christ's workmanship, similar to John 15 where we are in the Vine. The Cause is Christ working in and through us, the result is good fruit.

Obedience to the command of Christ is the reason; not for a blessing, not to earn salvation. It is a testimony of what Christ has done for you. A separation from the old life and a symbol of stepping into the new. Though I believe that through the ordinance, one can receive a blessing, it is not the reason to do it. I am surprised how many people I have met have been taught that since baptism is not the cause of salvation, it is treated as optional. A sign of commitment in obedience to your Master is not a difficult thing. I would have thought that a believer would be eager to do what Christ asked of them!

I'm a writer as well, Jacob. So good to meet a fellow wordsmith here.

The levitical laws were given to point out what sin was and how the people were to live as followers of God. But there was nothing in the laws themselves to empower someone to avoid sin and live a holy life. Hence, the need for offerings as everyone failed to lived entirely as they should as the people of God. But Jesus fulfilled ALL of the requirements of the Law on our behalf with his death and resurrection. When we accept that sacrifice in faith, we are given right-standing with God. So there is no need for any more sacrifices. Once we are born again, we should enter into a life-long process of sanctification in which the Holy Spirit points out what sin is and then empowers us to resist it. Note that I said it's a life-long process which will not be completed until the next life. I always say that, while there are no perfect Christians on this earth, there should be all kinds of Christians being perfected here. I have found that, over the years, the Holy Spirit has worked with me, pointing out one area of my life that required change and helping me to effect it. Then he has pointed out another and another and another and I am gradually "cleaning up my act" -- but only with his insight and empowerment. I am interested, Sight, in your conclusion that you haven't truly accepted Christ because of what these verses say. Yet you call yourself born-again. If you are born again, then you have accepted Christ because there is no other way to be born again. I wonder if what you're saying is this -- you feel condemned by what these verses say because you haven't been able to live up to them fully. To me, the very fact that you recognize that you have not been able to live totally as God would will shows that you are indeed born-again. If you weren't, then you really wouldn't care whether you please God or not. Bear in mind what Paul said about there being no condemnation in Christ (Rom. 8:1). The Holy Spirit will prick your conscience when you fail, but not with condemnation (although you will probably feel godly sorrow). Then the Holy Spirit will encourage you to try again and succeed according to God's plan for you -- at least, that has been my experience and I don't think I am alone in it. And when you do fail, always bear in mind what John wrote in 1 John 1:9, that if we confess our sins, God is faithful and will forgive us. I hope that helps.

Shalom Jacob Ben Avraham, Naim meod!! Welcome To Worthy!!

Welcome to Worthy Jacob. Let's get to know each other first. I am sure you have much for us to read and learn as we do not have that many Messianic Jewish members, but the owner is ... too bad he is so busy with speaking engagements. I am sure the two of you would have a great time discussing!

Forgot I used rm 1:21 as reference for glorify and thank also mt 24:13 till the end. While I know faith is of the upmost importance, soul saving, I don't think we should be willingly, knowledgefully sinful either, JM 4:17, LK 12:48, HEB 10:26,

Blessings paper mache Welcome to Worthy.....body of Christians? I imagine you mean "The Body of Christ" I'm not sure if you are talking about the "church" you are presently attending or the "Church" ......so, I'm wondering because if you Believe the Church you are going to is the Body of Christ then I can only say"No,I don't know what you mean by that bit of info" This would be a good discussion to have with you but this is an "answer only " Forum so I can't even ask you any questions......Before I could really answer your questions I would like to know what you DO believe,you only shared with us what you DON'T believe...... With love-in Christ,Kwik

This is the seekers lounge where we are to address the OPs question, not debate which version of the bible is correct. We have many threads about that already, and probably will have many more. When replying, please address the OP only. Each reply needs to be approved by staff so please, ensure that the reply is addressing the OPs concern and not derailing the thread. This could be the reason why the OP has not returned to the thread since it was created. I have cleaned the thread.

They push you away and out when you comment on how they're behaving ? That should answer you as to where God is. He's there telling you to go! When those people do that. Because God isn't there among them when they're acting that way toward people.

http://www.people-press.org/2017/02/16/in-first-month-views-of-trump-are-already-strongly-felt-deeply-polarized/ From the article: "This level of strong disapproval already surpasses strong disapproval for Barack Obama at any point during the eight years of his presidency. The only occasion when strong disapproval of George W. Bush was higher than for Trump currently was in December 2008, near the end of his presidency. And while all presidents dating back to Ronald Reagan initially attracted at least modest support from the opposing party, Trump gets almost none. Just 8% of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents approve of his job performance – by far the lowest rating for any new president from the opposing party in more than three decades. By contrast, 84% of Republicans and Republican leaners approve of the way he is handling his job as president, which is in line with the support past presidents received from their own parties."

Actually this poll is another piece of fake news. According to a recent Rasmussen poll, Trump's approval rating is 55%. The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday shows that 55% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of President Trump’s job performance. Forty-five percent (45%) disapprove. The latest figures include 38% who Strongly Approve of the way Trump is performing and 36% who Strongly Disapprove. This gives him a Presidential Approval Index rating of +2 http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/trump_administration/prez_track_feb16 So the huge difference between 55% and 39% is a dead giveaway. This is a good reminder of the fake polls that were published throughout the campaign by the MSM. How would you know that? She wanted to start WWIII. Check her rhetoric during her campaign. She is also indirectly responsible for all the slaughter of the innocents under ISIS. Declassified docs: Hillary aided rise of ISIS Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/05/declassified-docs-hillary-aided-rise-of-isis/#bBWQeS9R0IuKeLeZ.99

No it is not. Comparing anyone to Hitler is a horrible thing to do. You know how many millions that he killed and tortured?

What would you say if someone said that Trump was worst than Hitler and believe me I have heard it.

That is quite a statement. No matter what my feelings were about Hillary and her campaign she is not worst than Hitler.

No, shiloh, Clinton is not literally worse than Hitler. That's ridiculous hyperbole. And for the record, Trump made more false statements than Clinton, according to PolitiFact. Anyway, you can't gauge how good a person is by how much opposition they get from the other end of the political spectrum. That's rubbish. Past Republican presidents have been able to get some degree of support from Democrats, yet Trump has totally failed in doing so.

The last I recall, Clinton didn't have any plans to slaughter millions of people.

Trump's victory was as much a referendum of the Republican party as it was for the Democrats, maybe even more so.

Most Democrats would also oppose Hitler if he was the US President, even more strongly than they oppose Trump. Would that make Hitler better than Trump?