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Showing content with the highest reputation on 03/26/2017 in Posts

  1. President Trump made a major announcement on Friday, revealing one of the nation’s largest telecommunications company would create 20,000 jobs and invest over $25 billion in the United States, reports Fox News. “Today I am thrilled to announce that Charter Communications has just committed to investing $25 billion… with a ‘B’, $25 billion… and has committed further to hiring 20,000 American workers over the next four years,” said the President. 3/24 Hannity.Com God bless our president and the USA!
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  2. I don't know if it's Soros but I know SOMEONE is hiring them. The thing is....will they be worth it? I don't seem them having any influence on anyone who isn't already brainwashed.
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  3. Absolutely. I don't remember ONE time that Obama advanced investment in this country. He was more interested in other countries and what they thought of us which, to me, is a big yawn. America first. and Trump rocks.
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  4. I agree! It's always thrilling to read our country is coming back from all those efforts made in the past to bring us down.
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  6. How do you fight for your marriage and be strong when your husband has decided that he wants to be single, because he is struggling with list of the flesh?
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  7. Thank you for asking, Shel. All itchiness and rashes are gone. Thank God. The friendship is dwindling away. And I'm ready for it to go now. It took awhile for me to accept the loss. I am at peace with where things are going with the relationship.
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  8. Jesus said, My yoke is easy and my burden is light? Kind off like Cast your cares on me? What does it mean exactly? An example would be helpful.
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  9. I have a question that I have struggled with for a long time. In The Old Testament psalms, David prayed for judgment on his enemies - the "Imprecatory Psalms" - then Christ said to "love your enemies, pray for those who use and persecute you." When someone does something despicable to you - how are you supposed to know whether to pray for God's judgment on them, or pray *for* them? I'm a long time Christian and this still stumps me. I have seen people get away with atrocities, and do not appear to have gotten repaid for the evil they did. Even when Christ said to pray for your enemies, he didn't say specifically *what* to pray. Has anyone else stumbled with this?
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  10. Russia builds 'unstoppable' 4,600mph missile that could destroy Royal Navy's new carriers http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/russia-builds-unstoppable-4600mph-missile-that-could-destroy-royal-navys-new-carriers/ar-BByM2ON?li=AAavLaF&ocid=spartanntp
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  11. Hi delade3, The promise in the book of Jeremiah is to Israel. If you would read the context you would see - `For thus says the Lord: after seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you & perform my good word towards you, and cause you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think towards you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and a hope. Then you will call upon me .....and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from the places where I have driven you...` (Jer. 29: 10 - 14) Nothing to do with the Body of Christ, which was not revealed to the OT prophets. We are not the centre of God`s word. We read it to learn of God`s character & His purposes through Christ. Remember Stephen the martyr, well do you think he was saying to God as he was being stoned, "Is this the plans you have for me, for peace & hope?" No. God`s plan is to make us like Christ, & that means going through trials & tribulations. Don`t be lulled or drawn into fleshly hopes. Marilyn.
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  12. Amen. Unfortunately most of us Gentile believers have no clue about the feasts of the Lord. Many try to write them off as just Jewish holidays, but they are not Jewish holidays at all. These are the Lord's appointed times and the Jews were commanded to keep and observe them throughout ALL of their generations, wherever they are. They will all be fulfilled by Christ, and Christ alone. And what's even more unfortunate is that not only are we clueless about the Lord's festivals, but we have fallen for all of the pagan holidays instead (Easter, Christmas, Halloween...). I got news for them, though. The Lord was not resurrected on Easter Sunday, as many have been taught for hundreds of years now. But He was actually resurrected on the Feast of First Fruits, long before there was any such thing as Easter, before the Romans hijacked the Church and led the world into the dark ages. Cheers
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  13. PARASHA: VaYakhel (and he assembled) and P’Kudei (Accountings of) EX 35:1-38:20 and EX 38:21-40:38……………..1 KINGS 7:13-8:21………….MARK 9:1-50 …..These are the final chapters of Exodus (Shemot) and Moshe talks about honoring the Sabbath day, the prohibition of lighting a fire on the Sabbath, gathering an offering to build the tabernacle and it’s furnishings, the appointment of persons to make certain items, and finally, the building project in detail and the outcome. All these are worth talking about. ….”Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to YHVH” …..”You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.” …..These are very important statements, commandments repeated from before. Even before the building project begins, YHVH wants his people to know the work days, rules, and regulations. It this “work-a-holic” world in which we live, the believer should know when to stop and rest. YHVH commands it, for our own good and mental soundness. Too many people work all seven days a week, perhaps 10 or more hours each day to make a “lot-of-money” only to spend the extra money at the hospital when they have a nervous breakdown because of all the extra work hours. …..The Sabbath is a day to spend with the family, at the family’s place of worship., be it at a synagogue or at a church. It is a time to spend with the LORD, to worship, learn from HIS WORD, and fellowship with other believers. It is a time to leave the things of the house alone, perhaps eat out, and return home at the end of Sabbath. It is intended as a “day of rest” so, “rest” means exactly that, “rest”. …..When we look at the commandment; “Thou shalt kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath” we need to ask ourselves, what was fire used mainly for? Probably for cooking! To boil water, prepare food in different ways. Manna fell from the sky and the Israelites perhaps ate it as is, or boiled it, made it into bread, they probably roasted goats or lambs from the flocks, heated ovens for “Manna flat bread” It was a task and a half to start and maintain a fire, cooking, preparing and all that. So, YHVH is saying STOP!, just for the Sabbath, and take a break from it all. Stop slaving over the hot stove and rest, prepare something on Friday, that is why HE gave a “double-portion” of Manna on Friday. …..Today, how can we put that “mitzvah” into good use without “overdoing it” as some Jewish sects do, not , turning on a light switch, not driving a car, etc. Well, to start, we can prepare meals for Saturday on Friday, and on the Sabbath, just heat them up. Another idea, eat something light like salad and sandwiches. Many churches and synagogues have the custom of eating out, or eating “in”. Some Jewish synagogues have “oneg” a lunch prepared for the members and guests after service. Some church Sunday school classes go out to eat as families after services on Sundays. Why not? Give the house-wife or house-husband a break from kitchen duty! Don’t they deserve it? Anyway, the Sabbath was made for man and woman, to “rest” and take it easy, and mediate on YHVH. …..The rest of these two Parashot have to do with the Tabernacle. The order to build it, to take up an offering of materials, to assign workers, to “build it” to “put it all together” and finally, to invite YHVH to come down and dwell in it, which he DID, at the close of the book of Exodus. So, go ahead and read the chapters. How can we look at this in light of our lives as born-again believers in Messiah Yeshua? …..The “tabernacle” today is YHVH’s dwelling place which is each and every “Kehilah” (congregation) where born-again believers meet to worship the LORD, singing praises and teaching his WORD. The tabernacle is also the bodies of all believers, with the Ruach HaKodesh dwelling inside of us! YHVH has given each and every believer some gift and talent to “maintain” the “Mishkan of Believers” as YHVH chose different individuals to build the furniture of the Mishkan, so HE has selected different believers with different talents to maintain the Kehilah. …..So, what does every article of tabernacle furniture symbolize in relationship with Yeshua and believers? …..1. The Mishkan itself with the curtains, poles, staves, etc = A “fence” to keep holiness in and ungodliness out! Once inside, you are in the holy place, where YHVH dwells, and where the priests minister. Our Kehilot are “holy places” where the LORD dwells and where we join for fellowship with other believers. …..2. “Aron HaKodesh” (The Ark of the Covenant) the “heart” of the Mishkan, where the tablets of the commandments are kept, together with a pot of Manna, and Aron’s rod. It symbolizes the believer who “should” shine like “gold” both inwardly as well as outwardly. We should be mindful of the commandments to put them into action as “unto good works” Yeshua is our “Manna” the “Bread of Life” and the Rod of Aron as our “Rod of authority, our high priesthood of believers” The “Shekinah glory” which rested above the mercy seat is the everlasting presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives. …..3. “The Table of Incense” it symbolizes our prayers as they go up “like smoke” unto the heavenlies, even to the Throne of Grace. One thing to point out, all the furniture with the exception of the Menorah, was made of Acacia wood overlaid with gold, the wood symbolizes the humanity of Yeshua, and the gold “purity”. The incense was made of various ingredients, but making an exact replica of the original substance is forbidden, most worshippers today that use incense use a mixture of Frankincense and Myrrh, which is readily available. It is a relaxing aroma that helps one to go to sleep at night. …..4. “The Golden Menorah” was made of one solid piece of gold, hammered and formed into a seven-branch candlestick. It had seven lamps which were filled with olive oil and burned all night. In the morning, the priest would come into the Holy Place and trim the wicks and re-fill the lamps with olive oil. We look at the Menorah as “Yeshua Ha Or Olam” (Yeshua who is the light of the world, the Eternal Light) we are the 6 branches that are on either side of the “Shamash” the helper lamp which is in the middle, Yeshua said, “Ye are the light of the world” that means “every believer is a light in dark places” but our light comes from Yeshua” we have no light of our own, like the moon, moon light is sun light reflected off the lunar surface. The oil symbolizes the Ruach Ha Kodesh, (The Holy Spirit) and the wicks are “us” we need to be in contact with the “oil” in order to have brightness. …..5. “The Table of Shewbread” made of hard wood overlaid with gold. Had 12 loaves of bread, symbolizing the 12 tribes of Israel. The table and bread symbolize “Yeshua HaLechem Chayim” (Yeshua the Bread of Life) Even the “unleavened bread” of Passover which symbolizes “Yeshua” who is the unleavened bread” …..6. Outside the holy place are two items, the bronze laver and the Brazen Altar. The bronze laver was a huge bronze bowl filled with water. The priests would wash their hands and feet after offering blood sacrifices. It was made of bronze which symbolizes “judgment” when the water was still, the priest would see his reflection in the water. When we look in still water, or in a mirror, we see our reflection, we see who we are, sinners saved by grace, yet we still have the sin nature, and Yeshua went through “judgment” in our place, we have been “washed” in his blood and made clean. Remember that Yeshua washed the feet of his talmidim. …..7. “the Bronze Altar” (Mizbeach) (pronunciation = “ach” like Yohann Sebastian Bach) not “beach” which is by the ocean, NO! was made of hard wood overlaid with bronze, symbolizing the humanity of Yeshua who was judged in the “fires of our sin”. The animal sacrifices were performed on this altar, the blood was poured out at the base of the altar and the animals roasted on a grill. Think of the Mizbeach as a big BBQ pit. The brazen altar symbolizes the cross of Messiah Yeshua, the animals symbolizing Yeshua himself who poured out his blood for us sinners, who incurred “our judgment” in his own body. …..We see the materials that went into building the tabernacle; gold, silver, bronze, fine linen, wood, blue, purple, scarlet, and animal skins, They all have symbolic meanings; Gold=purity (of Messiah) and the goal of every follower of Mashiach, Silver=redemption (Yeshua redeemed us from the curse of sin) bronze=Judgment (Yeshua was judged for our sins, Fine linen= our new nature and our walk with the LORD, wood=Humanity of Messiah Blue=Heaven, Purple=Royalty, (we are royalty in Messiah Yeshua, part of his royal family) Scarlet=blood. Animal skins=the covering of our sins before, but now, our sins have been erased, not just covered. …..At the end of Exodus, in 40:38 it says that YHVH settled upon the Mishkan in a cloud. Now his presence is visible. Messiah is still with us in the form of the Holy Spirit, WE are the living Tabernacles and the Spirit of God lives in our heart, as well as within the “Kehilot” of believers who come together for worship. There is much more to say, but I better end here, or I’ll be here all night and it is already past midnight. 1 KINGS 7:51-8:21 …..We see here a repetition of the same building project, but on a larger scale. Solomon builds the first “Temple” for the presence of YHVH. Wherein the tabernacle was a mobile structure (kinda like a mobile home) the Temple was a fixed place. He employed thousands of workers, so there wasn’t much unemployment in Israel during that time. It took many years to build whereas the tabernacle was finished in a matter of months. …..It takes time to build a ministry, many years sometimes. But if the goal is to share/teach the Word of God to others, to minister HIS word, then the LORD will bless that work, no matter how small or how big, whether a “mobile” ministry or a “fixed-in-one-place ministry, Adonai will bless and it will last. MARK 10:1-52 …..Here, Yeshua teaches on divorce. This is a big subject, and a sad subject because many couples do not take marriage seriously any more. “Love” is a “commitment” it is a “conscious choice” to care for a person, it has nothing to do with “feelings”, yet “feelings” can lead two people together in order to “make a “love” commitment” Divorce was allowed out of the “hardness of man’s heart” in biblical times, it was instituted by the man, never the woman, all is different now, get tired of your mate? Bored? Run to the lawyer and get a divorce, look for a new mate, someone more exciting and full of life. This is the mentality of the world, but not the mentality of God. The only biblical reason for allowing divorce is adultery, and for unbelief, if there is a mixed marriage and the unbeliever refuses to live with the believer, “let him (or her) depart” for we are not called to strife. All the more reason to be “equally yoked together, believers with other believers” Personally, divorce should be a last choice if one is living in a “hell hole” and the mate is a “unholy terror” but let’s not even go there now, we need to lift up our mates in prayer and pray for understanding one with the other. We are all different, and our mates complement our weaknesses, and through our mates, our weaknesses become “strong” …..It is almost 1 AM, I am definitely going to bed now…………Shabbat Shalom Rabbi Petersen
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  14. To me, the historical tradition of eternal punishment and the Scriptures that support it are clear. While not a salvation issue, I find that the annihilation position is based far too much in a philosophical argument than in Scripture. If you have to explain away half of the passages that deal with eternal punishment to arrive at where you desire, something is wrong. Every position has a few difficult passages to deal with, but when you have to turn the Bible on its ear to prove a point, I tend to believe that something is not healthy, and potentially dangerous in that position. When I see things like this, a flag goes up and I ask myself, what does Scripture say? On this basis I find annihilation wanting. The twisting's and turnings of Sophistry is no substitute for Scripture. Secondly, I do ask myself, what is someone to gain by rejecting eternal punishment? Is it an effort to prove that they are more correct than the majority? Is it to have a point to argue that their position/denomination is more correct than others, and therefore we should yield to whatever else they say? This is what I have seen from my interactions with the Jehovah's Witnesses. Lastly, while not an essential for salvation, I wonder at the commitment and passion to disprove eternal punishment. Historically speaking, the issue is late in Christian history, and dominates in groups that I would not want to hold hands with doctrinally.
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  15. Yes, about the Messiah, and Christs literal acts and words revealed this progression and when we look back at scripture post His revelation we see the clear typology. What you're doing is simply throwing out the word "progressive revelation" in the hopes that it'll do the heavy lifting for your view, without actually exegeting scripture. You might as well say "Exegesis says I'm right and you're wrong, or Good Hermeneutics says I'm right" But worse, if anything you've shot the entire traditionalist case in the foot, because now the proof texts for eternal conscious torment are only proof texts if correct exegesis is overruled by the assumption that progressive revelation reveals that the fate of the lost is eternal conscious torment. But you haven't shown that eternal conscious torment has been progressively revealed, so this is all just question begging.
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  16. Your believe is that the unsaved are immortal and cannot die, is it not? When the bible uses the terms perish and destroy is it not used in reference to dead bodies rotting and decaying, chaff burning up and so on? How are any of those compatible with your view that people will live immortally, fully conscious and aware and intact forever. Somehow you're calling this death and destruction and perish, even though the words mean the exact opposite and the scriptural examples show the exact opposite. Your view is more like how the burning bush that Moses saw is described: And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. (Exo 3:2) Your view is that people will burn forever without ever burning up or being consumed, but the words destroy mean the exact opposite.
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  17. Nowhere does the Bible teach that death = separation. This notion comes from Plato which is ironic given the fact that you've accused me of using philosphy instead of scripture to argue my case. "We believe, do we not, that death is the separation of the soul from the body, and that the state of being dead is the state in which the body is separated from the soul and exists alone by itself and the soul is separated from the body and exists alone by itself? Is death anything other than this?" - Plato’s Phaedo, section 64c It is also through Plato that the notion that all souls including the unsaved are immortal comes from. When the Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved it never defines death as separation, but it regularly uses it in conjunction with words like perish and destroy.
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  18. Actually the traditional view appears around the time of Augustine. If we look at earlier writings of the church fathers then many of them appear to have been conditionalists, for instance: First Clement (late 1st century) Ignatius of Antioch (late 1st century) Epistle of Barnabas (late 1st or early 2nd century) Irenaeus (2nd century) Arnobius (early 4th century) Athanasius (4th century) It's also pretty clear that the notion that all human beings are immortal, which is the basis of the traditional view crept into Christian belief from Plato's writings. Tertullian for instance cites Plato and not scripture when speaking of the immortality of all souls. Firstly I have been very clear that the punishment, namely death is forever. The unsaved do not die for a while. So I'm in agreement about the eternal nature of the punishment. My belief is that taking figures of speech and interpreting them at face value to support a doctrine is an example of what you're talking about. I have pointed out that terms like smoke rising forever and worms dying not, when taken in their proper context, offers better support for my view. The cherry picking charge is actually pretty absurd considering that I have argued for my view from passages picked by traditionalists. My contention from the beginning was that I believe the proof texts for eternal conscious torment are actually better confirmation of my view. None of the evangelical conditionalists I have encountered came to their conclusions because "a loving God can't be that cruel". I came to the conclusion that conditionalism is true by researching what the bible teaches about the fate of the unsaved instead of merely looking at proof texts for hell and ignoring their literary context and how they are used elsewhere in scripture. The bible doesn't teach that the maggots are forever eating flesh. There is no such thing as an immortal maggot. See, this is precisely my point. The bible says the worms die not, which is just a way of saying that the worms won't be stopped from eating up the bodies of the dead Likewise the bible says the fire isn't quenched, it does not say the fire never goes out, and therefore the unsaved must live forever so that the fire will have something to burn, those are your words not the Bible, and they bad logical deductions based on misunderstand scripture. What the unquenchable fire means is simply that the fire is unstoppable, that it won't be put out until it has burnt up what it must must up. To quench a fire is to put it out. Another example of this language is here: Jer 7:33 And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away. Notice the pattern? God is using images of unstoppable fire, unstoppable maggots and unstoppable scavengers to illustrate the utter destruction of the wicked. Nowhere do any of these, when understood in their proper context, support your interpretation. Notice also that in every case these images apply to the dead bodies, not to people living forever in torment. I agree, but the problem is that the traditional view ignores all the verses that describe the fate of the wicked from the old testament all the way to the new as death, because traditionalists don't believe that the fate of the wicked is death. When traditionalists source proof texts for hell they limit their search to the handful of verses which they think support eternal conscious torment while skipping over the deluge of text that doesn't fit with the doctrine. My desire is indeed for us to look at how God promised he will punish the wicked and what the destiny for the saved is, without seeing it through the coloured lenses of tradition. The problem is that it also says that death and hades are emptied before it is thrown into the lake of fire. So even assuming a wooden literal understanding of these apocalyptic images, doesn't help your case. My contention is that death and hades are abstract concepts, not containers full of screaming people. The traditional view forces a literal understanding of clearly apocalyptic imagery and then basis an entire doctrine on deductions from these, IMHO. bad readings of Revelation. And moreover they're not even consistent about it, because they do not view the many horned-many headed beasts, the whore and so many others things in Revelation in that same wooden literal way. I agree. Why then is it that traditionalist often teach precisely the opposite of what the bible says?
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  19. It's a place for Satan , The beast and the false prophet.
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  20. Sorry that was meant to say punishment does not necc = burning for eternity.
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  21. Punishment does not necessarily = burning. Eternal separation from God through death would be punishment as well..
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  22. Admittedly the above lists are a little cheeky, but I think it illustrates two points, which is why I wanted to post them. Firstly, the charge that conditionalists are theological liberals who twist scripture to suit their view is simply false. Secondly, I think it illustrates how the traditionalist doctrine has become so ingrained in Christian discourse that people auto-replace what they read in the Bible with the doctrine and even sound scholars such as the great teachers listed don't recognise that they're actually contradicting scripture. This was the biggest eye opener for me, in my study on this topic, was how the bible doesn't actually say what is so commonly believed.
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  23. What the bible says about the destruction of the damned: Matthew 7:13: Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. Matthew 10:28: And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 2 Peter 2:12: But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction. 2 Thessalonians 1:9: They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. What traditionalists say: John Walvoord: Those being resurrected from Hades and the grave will receive a body that can never be destroyed, but unlike the body of the righteous, it is a body that is still wicked, still in rebellion against God, and still deserving God's judgment. J. Warner Wallace: They will not be destroyed, but instead, will be left in a conscious state to experience the torment and anguish of their punishment forever. Greg Koukl: Men are not destroyed, they are in torment. Robert Peterson: Hell is where “the fire is not quenched.” This is a picture of everlasting suffering, not of destruction. J.I. Packer: The fire of hell in the Bible is a picture not of destruction but of ongoing pain. J.P. Moreland: If God is the source and preserver of values, and if persons have the high degree of intrinsic value Christianity claims they have, then God is the preserver of persons. He would be wrong to destroy something of such value just because it has chosen a life it was not intended to live. Frank Turek and Norman Geisler: Hell is real. In fact, Jesus spoke more of hell then he did of heaven. God will not annihilate unbelievers because he will not destroy creatures made in his own image. That would be an attack on himself. Robert Thomas: Jesus described the fire as unquenchable as did John the Baptist. Jesus said it will be a fire that acts like salt, preserving rather than destroying. Lactantius: Because [the wicked] have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire. Erwin Lutzer: Hell, then, is the raw soul joined to an indestructible body. Christopher Morgan: Annihilationism is the belief that those who die apart from saving faith in Jesus Christ will be ultimately destroyed. Albert Mohler: The Socinians . . . questioned the eternality of punishment in hell, teaching instead that the wicked would be destroyed in hell—a view that has come to be known as annihilationism. … Wenham leaned toward the annihilationist view that unbelievers might be destroyed rather than endlessly tortured in hell. J.I. Packer: Furthermore, the theory of annihilationism, in which unbelievers are not tortured but destroyed in hell, must be read into the Bible. Vernon McGee: [Hell is] not annihilation. Some of our cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventism, they teach that the righteous will live forever but the wicked are just going to be destroyed and that ends it as far as they’re concerned. Randy Alcorn: Another view [of annihilationism] states that unbelievers are destroyed not at death, but sometime later.
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  24. Who lives forever according to the bible? John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 1 John 2:17: The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever. (NASB) John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. What traditionalists say: John Rice: But the Bible carefully teaches that sinners must live on in torment forever beyond the judgment. J.I. Packer: In the New Testament, however, hell is a destiny: it is humanity’s future life as all who oppose God will experience it. John McKinley: Evildoers will continue to have purpose and value as God’s image bearers who acknowledge Jesus as Lord. They continue to live with created dignity by the way God holds them accountable for their evil actions. Pope John Paul II: The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. John Piper: You are not mere matter and energy. You are an embodied soul who will live forever in heaven or in hell, created in the image of God… --- Jesus had a lively, daily awareness of heaven and hell. These awesome realities were always relevant for the way he lived and taught. He was radically reasonable about these things. If we will live forever in bliss or torment, then securing the one and escaping the other is more important than most of what we think about. John MacArthur: The message of the Bible is that death does not end the existence of anyone, that every human being who has ever lived will live forever...either in hell or in heaven, either in eternal death or eternal life . . . Not merely as a disembodied spirit, but every person will live forever in bodily form. C.S. Lewis: Christianity asserts that every individual human being is going to live forever, and this must be either true or false. Robert Peterson: Believers will enjoy the new heavens and the new earth, whereas the final destination of the unrepentant will be “the lake that burns with fire and brimstone” Evidently God does not view unbelievers' being eternally alive in the lake of fire as incompatible with His being “all in all.” --- Moreover the picture of the righteous and unrighteous living forever in bliss and misery, respectively, does not fit either universalism or annihilationism. George Whitefield: I have in effect denied the Lord that bought me, and therefore justly am I now denied by him. But must I live for ever tormented in these flames? Charles Spurgeon: Man was condemned to live forever in Hell. --- Thou art a fallen creature, having only capacities to live here in sin, to live forever in torment. Menno Simmons: Therefore, consider seriously the heartrending misery and wretchedness of their poor souls which must live forever, either in heaven or in hell. Mark Driscoll: God is an eternal God; a sin against him is an eternal act that requires an eternal consequence. And we are going to live eternally into the future—the question is where. … You are going to live forever, and it will be unceasing joy or unceasing anguish. John Walvoord: It also seems very clear, according to Revelation 20:10 as well as other passages, that those thrown into the lake of fire are not annihilated. The beast and the false prophet are still alive and still tormented a thousand years after they are cast. Billy Graham: [The soul] will never die, but will live forever in either Heaven or Hell.
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  25. Lets put your theory to the test. A fellow conditionalist named Ronnie Demler has compiled a list of scriptural teachings and what esteemed traditionalist, some to whom you might look up have taught. Let's see if you're correct in that conditionalists are the one who twist scripture or if it may in fact be those on your side. What the bible has to say about the death of the damned: Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:13: For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. John 6:50: This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. John 11:25–26: Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” What traditionalists say: Saint Anselm: O worms, O worms, why do you gnaw me so cruelly? Pity me, pity me; pity poor me, that suffer so many and such awful other torments! Ah, poor me, poor me! And I want to die; but, dying and dying, still I cannot die. Robert Murray M'Cheyne: Wicked men shall be cast away by themselves.—It is said, they shall wish to die, and shall not be able. They shall seek death, and death shall flee from them. Proceedings of the Church Missionary Society for Africa and the East: Some say, “Suppose me go to Hell, me soon die there—big fire soon kill me; then me no feel.” But God says you no die in Hell. Suppose you put stone in the fire, he can't be burnt ! No—fire can't burn him—he always live there! God says the wicked have hearts of stone, and fire will no melt them. John Wesley: Neither the righteous nor the wicked were to die any more: their souls and bodies were no more to be separated. Hyman Appelman: You can take poison; you can blow your brains out; you can hang yourself and believe you have left your difficulties behind. But there is no poison in Hell. There are no guns in Hell. There is no death in Hell. John MacDuff: [If we could] look into the lake of fire, and have a sight of the wretched beings who are there writhing in deathless agonies--we would then thank God for the most miserable condition on earth, if it were only sweetened with the hope of escaping that place of torment! John Willison: Pray earnestly, that all your sins may die before you die; for if they die not before you, but outlive the dying body, they will live eternally to sting and torment the never-dying soul. John Gill: …the soul in torment shall never die, or lose any of its powers and faculties; and particularly, not its gnawing, torturing conscience. Jerry Vines: To go to into hell knowing you will never return is the tragedy of all tragedies. “Let some air in.” No air is in hell. “I need a drink of water.” No water is in hell. “Turn on some light.” No light is in hell. “Let me die.” No death occurs in hell. What do you say YOWM? Do you believe that the unsaved will die, or do you believe that they'll live forever in torment?
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  26. Again I have made it clear that I believe the punishment is eternal because the unsaved will lose their lives forever. Moreover I've made it abundantly clear that my position is that the unsaved will die. Whether or not bits remain or nothing remains is irrelevant to me. The verses you've cited have been addressed before.
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  27. You have made a number of points above which I think merits some consideration. I think the Holy Spirit has often used people's missteps for good. God used Joseph's brothers' wickedness for good to find a way to save Israel for instance. As such I don't think that just because good has come from the doctrine of eternal conscious torment, this automatically means that is true and that it is from the Holy Spirit. I don't think it's fair to take what secularists believe and apply it to this discussion. Firstly I believe that all people will be held accountable and be judged and those who lose their lives will ultimately lose the greatest thing that mankind could ever be given, which is the opportunity to everlasting life in the new heaven and the new earth in the glory and kingdom of our God. And I think the thought that the price for that gift was freely given, because Jesus already died so they didn't have to, will indeed be tragic. This is significantly far removed from what atheists believe that this life is it, the best there is.
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  28. You are pretending that I am arguing for cessation of existence, but I have been very clear from the start that my position that the unsaved will die/perish/be destroyed. Pretending that I have made a different argument than that and going after that instead of what I actually argued is a strawman fallacy. Jesus' audience and Paul's audience didn't have the luxury of theological notions such as "progressive revelation", but instead knew the old testament very well. There is no reason to think that they wouldn't have taken a wooden literal view of terms such as smoke rising and eternal fire. Terms they were very familiar with. Likewise there is also no reason to think that they would have understand death/desctruction juxtaposed against eternal life as meaning any other than what they were familiar with. I'm happy to access if I have been guilty of bad exegesis, but merely asserting "you're wrong, because bad exegesis because progressive revelation" isn't an argument.
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  29. As I have pointed out a number of times, Conditional Immortality or Evangelical Conditionalism holds that eternal life is only given to the saved. The unsaved will perish/die/be destroyed. What scriptures support this notion? Here are some that you have chosen to ignore earlier: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (Joh 3:16) Do you believe what it says in the above verse, that those who believe will live forever and those who don't will perish? Or do you instead believe that everybody lives forever, some in bliss and some in misery, and that those in misery won't in fact perish at all? "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Mat 7:13-14) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:23)
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  30. Our reading of scripture should be informed by the genre and figures of speech should not be taken at face value. Apocalyptic symbolism should not be taken at face value, and pointing that out is not an instance of allegorising/spiritualising. How does one show that a figure of speech is at play? By showing where the same images and phrasing is being used elsewhere and where the bible itself attaches a different meaning. This I have done, so I believe I have satisfied the requirements of being true to scripture and sound exegesis.
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  31. I'm glad my posts could be of help. I would urge you to always be careful when going against tradition, but ultimately being honest and true to scripture should overrule tradition.
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  32. But he was wounded for our transgressions, and he was crushed for our iniquities, and the punishment that made us whole was upon him (Isaiah 53:5)
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  33. I still have not seen the ECT Crowd address my question. If Jesus took our punishment, which the Bible says he did- And if said punishment for rejecting him is that we burn forever- Why is he not still burning??
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  34. Jesus was and the dead people who rose from their grave when he did, Lazuras brother of mary, elijah and moses. And Lazarus and Abraham and that poor thirsty rich man. What about the souls of those beheaded crying out to God for Justice? What about ables cry to Good? What people gathered Jacob, david, and OT saints gathered unto their people? Then you have samuel or something raising up out of sheol if you take the words literally. Who are the captive souls Jesus went to preach to. Did the bible form you doctrin or did you come up with the doctrin and find evidence for it after words? Forgive me if im off base. I did pull this quote out of context.
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  35. To clarify, Annhihilationsism is NOT the same thing as Conditonal Immortality.
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  36. "The worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched" is one of Jesus' favourite descriptions of Hell It's a straight quote from Isaiah 66:24. The interesting thing is that in that passage, as I read it, Isaiah is NOT talking about eternal conscious torment. The people he is describing are not suffering; they are dead corpses rotting and being destroyed on the rubbish heap.
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  37. Death is final. You don't remain conscious after death...
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  38. No matter what scripture I give you, you reject it. And that's OK we're both still Christians and going to heaven. this isn't a divisive salvation an issue. It changes nothing about evangelism.
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  39. Nickelodeon ‘makes history’ with its first ‘gay married’ couple in kids cartoon I wonder if this competes with all those openly Christian Bible thumping characters on their network. Oh, wait.
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  40. The problem with boycotts isn't that they're innaffective but that theyre not used properly. When I was a child a christian boycott worked well...they picked their battles and everyone got behind it. Now with social media we no longer pick our battles we scream boycott over everything....and there's no real organization. Christians dont even know what boycott they should do, or anyone else (how many people are "boycotting foods, animal companies etc) add that into our current divided culture, and the boycotts either fall flat on their face or just create strife and actually improve the cause they're fighting against. Being used the way they are currently, they are useless. Now, I'm not saying they're wrong, what I'm saying is if the church wants to run an effective boycott they need to change their tactics. For one they need to stop boycotting everything-face it you can find error in everything if you want. You can find support for the gay community with any company if you look hard enough. What the church needs to do is find one battle-one instrumental company or whatever, to boycott, and get everyone in on it. One giant unified front with a clear goal and organized nationwide. That would be about the most effective way to do it....other then that were just wasting our time.
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  41. Boycotts work of course. We can't expect a network to raise our children. Programming children's innocence by sexually depicting same sex fictional characters is no different than the sexualizing that occurs in music, music video's, and celebrity minors public imagery leaning toward the tawdry. But in that case you'll notice it is only the girl celebrities that fit that description. Imparting to children that homosexual couples is perfectly normal and acceptable when child consumers of Nick programming shouldn't even be thinking in that direction marks an agenda. Just like when Sesame Street franchise was thinking of making the long broadcast characters of Burt and Ernie to be a gay couple. After years of their being depicted as just two guys who were roommates.
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  42. The boycott is Beauty and the Beast worked so wonderfully I bet Nickalodian is hoping for a boycott!
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  43. March 22 walking with Jesus:) Lord thank you for heavenly provision of peace and joy.
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  44. You ask a very interesting and timely question. Does God actively curse people in this day and age? You have obviously read the Bible and picked up on the blessings and curses God laid out in the Book of the Law that was passed down to the Hebrews (which we know as the Old Testament). God placed those blessings and curses in the Word for the purpose of outlining what would happen IF people obeyed God or disobeyed God. So, in advance, with forethought, God laid out His expectations, His rewards and His punishments for those who obeyed or disobeyed Him. This is important to understand because it does NOT mean that God is actively cursing people today or throwing thunderbolts at those who sin. WE access either blessings or curses based solely upon our obedience or disobedience to God's laws. Now that Christ has come, we have an advocate with the Father and someone who paid the penalty for our sins by His death on the Cross. THEN, Jesus arose from the dead, thus breaking the link between life and death. No longer are we REQUIRED to die for our sins. Now, through Jesus, we have access to eternal life, even though we are mostly broken down sinners. But, if we sin and do not repent, we activate the curses laid out in the Book of the Law. God laid them down a long time ago and gave us a choice of which kind of reward we wanted....blessing or cursing. If we want to be blessed, we obey God as best we can and ask Jesus to forgive us our sin. If we sin, don't repent or change our ways, we set in motion the curses God already laid down, so right now, in this day and age, God's curses become active and we suffer mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually. The GOOD NEWS is, that even though we activate God's curses through disobedience, His Grace is applied when we repent and we CAN be forgiven. We may not be able to avoid all the consequences (mainly physical) of our disobedience, but we can still qualify for our eternal rewards in Christ. Curses are very real and they have devastating effects on the lives of people....even Christians who are unaware they have activated a curse. There are generational curses (according to Deut.5:9,10) that have effects on us until we learn how to break them and walk in blessings instead of curses. Blessings
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