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Some Folk Easily Take Offense For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 1 Peter 2:21-23 (New American Standard Bible) Others, Not So Much Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (English Standard Version) Beloved, What Do You Think?

I believe it has been well said that after rebirth believers have the same character, person-hood and personality, all which comprises individuals apart from their nature. It’s the work of the Father in the “life” of the Son (Col 3:4) by the power of Their Spirit that we have another nature (hence “new”), and in all this we now and forever have relationship with Them and one another (2Co 6:1; 1Th 5:10). I see it as an acceptable understanding that saints are not supplanted from their individuality but rather supplemented with the “life” of the Lord Jesus (Col 3:3), via an additional nature which is “after the image of Him that created him,” or “it” (Col 3:10). This makes us “complete in Him” (Col 2:10) and the Spirit by this new nature the believer is “separated” (circumcised) from the old nature (“old man”), and though it yet dwells within them (Rom 7:17, 20) they are not in it (Rom 8:9), esp. concerning its guilt (Rom 8:1) and its control (Rom 6:12, 14). The testing (strengthening) of faith using the “old man” is continually glorifying God by manifesting His “work” (Phil 2:13) within the redeemed. The sin nature and its effects are no longer a part of the saint’s life (other than its presence) concerning its ability to effect sinful desire. The natural man cannot but desire sin but the spiritual man cannot, due to the Spirit’s work within (Gal 5:17), and the Father’s “work” within. For believers, all the “newness” (“all things are become new”) is in the nature which is of Christ (Col 3:10), which supplements believers—not supplants them! It is a common concept that it is all Jesus and none of believer, but this is in reference to that which produces “all things that pertain to life and godliness” (2 Pe 1:3), in which that which is created could have no part in effecting, but only in receiving. If the individuality of the person was eliminated, with who would there be to have fellowship? Our Father already has fellowship with the Son, and therefore desires the same with those who come to Him. - WS (NetChaplain - BobH)

I highly suggest you not get bogged down with all the debates of when this will occur. Instead, always be ready to be with the Lord. Strong infighting as to pre, mid, pre-wrath, post, etc. is the tool of Satan. We are told we will not know the day nor hour. To me, this means don't worry about the when, but if you are ready or not. All we are told about the timing is that it will happen at the last trumpet. We can know the season, and Jesus told us to watch. Save yourself the heartache and not get involved with the fruitless debate as to when and focus only on if you are ready.

http://www.20000-names.com/female_hebrew_names.htm ~ Eliana means "My God has answered me." http://www.aish.com/jl/l/b/48966261.html ~ Have Fun~! Love, Your Brother Joe

lol.. I'd send him hunting, keep a couple hens and plant a good garden before I'd send anyone to work all day with no lunch.

The current “feminist” stupidity running rampant in our society literally turns my stomach. I’d much rather pack him a lunch and make dinner every day than change the oil, change the flats, fix the roof, etc.

2 Corinthians 12:7.. Paul speaks of a.. thorn in the flesh.. He calls it “a messenger of satan that had a purpose of torment. Many explanations have been put forward, but whether Paul is referring to a physical, spiritual, or emotional affliction.. or something else entirely.. Since he was not talking of a literal thorn, he must have been speaking metaphorically. Paul clues us in concerning the thorn’s purpose: To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations.” So, God’s goal in allowing the thorn in the flesh was to keep Paul humble. Anyone who had encountered Jesus and was commissioned personally by Him (Acts 9:2-8) would, in his natural state, become..puffed up. Add to that the fact that Paul was moved by the Holy Spirit to write much of the New Testament, and it is easy to see how Paul could become haughty. Paul also says that the affliction came from or by a “messenger of Satan.” Just as God allowed Satan to torment Job ( Job 1:1-12) God allowed Satan to torment Paul for God’s own good purpose. No one likes to live in pain. Paul sought the Lord three times to remove this source of pain from him (2 Cor. 12:8). He probably had many good reasons why he should be pain free.. he could have a more effective ministry; he could reach more people with the gospel; he could glorify God even more.. But the Lord was more concerned with building Paul’s character and preventing pride. Instead of removing the problem, whatever it was, God gave Paul more overwhelming grace and more compensating strength. Paul learned that God’s "power is made perfect in weakness” (verse 9).

An Australian mother asked a FaceBook group of 26,186 mothers:“I would love to hear what other mums make their hubbies for lunch and snacks throughout the work day,” she posted on Tuesday. “We are getting over sandwiches.” Some of these helpful ladies, offered their ideas: “Your husband is a grown up and you’re not his mother” “My husband can make his own damn lunch.” “I make my husband the same thing he makes me. Nothing!!” “Stuff that, hubby is a grown man. I already do his laundry and keep his children alive.” “Our advice is to stop making his lunches.” “My role is childcare during working hours and that’s it.” “He’s lucky if I decide to make dinner some nights”. “I was married for twenty years and my favourite packed lunch for my husband was called a Get it Yourself with a side order of I’m not your mother.” one mother of a toddler recounting her horror at finding out she was pregnant with a boy: “I felt sick at the thought of something male growing inside me.” The woman who was seeking lunch ideas said: She and her husband are saving up to buy their first home and, “he works in an extremely physically demanding job, he does housework, he cooks dinner every second night... He gets up in the middle of the night with our Bub. He is a champion. “The least I can do is make him a bloody sandwich. I love my man, he deserves to eat lunch and we can’t afford to eat out.” Exerpts are from an article you can read in it's entirely here:http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendezview/when-making-a-sandwich-is-a-crime-against-feminism/news-story/966a541e2e1ffe7bd5f13047d483ef51

The rescue missions say this is a good way to give to those panhandlers holding up signs on the street. You can make up a kit. They say "Don't give them money". ITEMS TO INCLUDE: A typical Care Kit consists of a watertight gallon-size zipper lock plastic bag filled with items like: Water bottle Socks Tuna and crackers Granola Bar or cereal bar Fruit snack or applesauce cup Crackers with peanut butter or cheese Gift certificate to fast food Hand wipes Pack of Kleenex Toothbrush and toothpaste Nail clippers Band Aids Chapstick Comb or small brush Mints, cough drops or gum Note of encouragement or uplifting Bible verse

Could you share about Oriental Orthodox Church and Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church? I know The Oriental Orthodox Church schismed from the rest of Eastern Orthodox Church, but I know nothing more about them. Perhaps I could open a topic for you to share about these churches? You're welcome. I totally agree that Church History is badly needed today and that most churches are ignorant of rudimentary Church history. If we learn from Church History we can stop reineventing the wheel. We can take from best, and spit out bones, and not repeat mistakes, "those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it."

For me, loving others towards Truth is more important then my 'self'. I am not here for my 'self' but for the One who sent me. I am here to help others towards salvation by expressing the true nature of Christ in me (the way and the truth and the life). It is all in God's plan, and all I am doing to the best of my ability is to follow God's will for me. Since I was an abused child I have been in love with an unseen Father. From that love came a certainty of being okay. out of empathy for others I asked to be a servant for God to help others find freedom in the Truth. It is a service done totally with, from, and in love with Christ and God. It's a desired obedience made from love. I have been doing it for almost thirty years and never tire from it. If anything it nourishes my heart to overflow. I do not like this world, but I've been to hell on earth, and nobody needs to go there out of innocence. I am just one of God's many advocates for the innocent and lost. I am here to serve God.

or . . . . "yes, and she can build the fence, change the flat on the p/u as well as spend the night out in the barn with the chickens, probably better than any of you ladies can, and with a lot more class, and a better attitude"

Uh? Im sorry i didn't get you. I meant in my prev reply that i wouldn't give them dirty stares. But yes, there isn't any point and certainly there is nothing uplifting about giving those stares.

Praying for you. And I'd start there. Do you genuinely desire God and His will? Ask Him! He will be more than delighted to answer that prayer. Ask Him to change your heart and mind to one that seeks His will first, and that truly loves and desires to obey Him.

I always thought it was a good place for my son to learn to be still and listen and practice reverance and respect and appreciated all the saints that helped him learn these disciplines. Some by giving him the looks or talks and some for praising his acomplishments in practicing be still and listen for The Lord.

OK, they're still children... And even us as adults do not follow the rules perfectly 100% of the time. Of course, when we're adults we do not act like children anymore but we still have our bad moments. I tell you this because I already was a child, and for some reason, sometimes I chose to rebel and decided to do what I should not... Sometimes in fury, not getting attention, etc. I believe it is not as simple as that, children will misbehave sometimes. Considering that all children who do that lack instructions is not accurate in my opinion. A good example: God gave us instructions for us to follow, but are we following them perfectly all the time?!

After going through most of the replies here, i am left speechless. Anyway,this is what i would do and had done when parents struggle with noisy children or crying babies. I would not even look or glare at the parents, except once to make sure if nothing out of the ordinary is happening. I would still bear in mind that these are little children and not all children are alike. They aren't robots to be expected to behave the same way as other "more disciplined, silent children". If one would expect a toddler or little ones to sit quietly for 30 to 40 minutes, "listening" to the pastor giving his sermons when they are at the age of exploring and figuring out the new world before them, i think he or she seriously needs to examine his or her own childhood years. I could say more actually because less we forget we have also in the midst of us, children who are autistic, down syndrom, developmental delays, short attention span etc where "disciplining" could harm them more than good. And to actually equate parents with noisy children as "lacking parenting skills" is baffling. Not all young children would be content with nurseries, some adapt, some do not. Older children of course would adapt better in Sunday Schools (if there are any) but again, not ALL children are the same. To expect young children to not behave like children is depriving them. I grew up with Asian parenting, "spare the rod, spoil the child". There are of course pros and cons here. Too much "disciplining" has adverse affects, no "discipline" at all is destructive. I think first and foremost, church going christians should ask themselves..."why are we even bothered going to church every Sunday etc in the first place, when we can't even put up with noisy children, which our beloved Lord has not hindered them to come to Him.... noisy or not... One can never imagine that they came to Him "all disciplined like soldiers". One can only imagine these kids were running, giggling and pushing each other as they approach the One, who "rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!”.

I'll pray for you to be forgiven and for the Lord to grant you repentance. mostly humble yourself and have a talk with the Lord. renew you mind in the word. gospel of John is a good place to start walking with the Lord in a new spirit. talk to the Lord about what you read and ask him for the things in humility you can see you need from Him.

Hi GandalfTheWise, Thank you for your input, I really appreciate it. That's really well said. I like your username

Well Jesus was attacked by Church of Day (Pharisees and Sadducees often) and by his local church, "All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this.They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff.But Jesus passed through the crowd and went on His way." (Luke 4:28-30). Worse Jesus was attacked by His extended family (half brothers and sisters, children of Joseph and Mary Matthew 1:24-25), "Then Jesus went home, and once again a crowd gathered, so that He and His disciples could not even eat, And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.” (Mark 3:21). Hence why Jesus rejects them back, "Then Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him. They stood outside and sent word for him to come out and talk with them. There was a crowd sitting around Jesus, and someone said, "Your mother and your brothers are outside asking for you." Jesus replied, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" Then he looked at those around him and said, "Look, these are my mother and brothers. Anyone who does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (Mark 3:31-35), and the Will Jesus is talking about is this, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:40). Christ was no stranger to persecution, He was persecuted by Religious Elite (Pharisees and Sadducees), His neighbors, and his own family members (children of Joseph and Mary after Jesus was born miraculous, for Jesus is God John 1:1-18, Colossians 2:9 and became flesh John 1:14, 1 John 4:1-3.

I think anyone who gives a glare over noisy children in church should consider Jesus' own words, "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these," (Matthew 19:14), "Truly I tell you," He said, "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven," (Matthew 18:3), "Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it," (Mark 10:15), and, "Truly I tell you, if anyone does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child, he will never enter it." (Luke 18:17). Another thought, young children are next generation and if you alienate, shame, and make them feel unwelcomed and like nuisance in church, why should you be surprised they seek solace in the world, and join gangs, and other groups that are antithetical to the church. Finally, if you shun the children or make them feel unwelcome, you are actually destroying future of your ministry.

actually in rev it says... Worship God for the testimony of Christ Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. Considering the gospel and the promises are prophetic they are not open for interpreration of man but are to stand exactly as spoke by God through Christ and the apostals.

We will live in a 'refuge Land', where the Lord will put His Laws into our hearts and we will live in peace and prosperity. Yes, the GT. is separate from the soon to happen Day of the Lord's wrath. The GT events will happen over a 3 1/2 year period just before Jesus Returns. The DoL is a 24 hour event. Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:5-6, Revelation 18:8, + Very soon to happen! logostelos.info

its all tied in. The world as chaos is increasing is looking everywhere but Christ for an answer. that is coming . its coming in short time. So many miss that in Daniel it talks about this dark king. IT tells us WHEN he stands. not the day or hour, the timing. It talks about him dividing the land for gain. it talks about Being exalted above all gods. interfiaths core message leads man to this. for it basically says your religion is second , HUMANITY IS FIRST. not only that. But before I show you something , I THINK you already KNOW , I want to ask you to look at this world and many churches. Are transgressions not getting full, when even christains say gay marriage is love , and transgenderism is seen as good. and evil is called good and good evil. Then know and understand this dark king stands very soon. For it makes a very Specific mention of WHEN he does so. IN the LATTER times of their kingdoms. W H E N the transgressors have come to the FULL.....THEN STANDS A KING undersanding DARK sentences who if we read on BY PEACE shall destroy many. and if we read on something very interesting get said. IT says this king DIVIDES the land for gain. Say WHAT...............are they not talking RIGHT NOW about DIVIDING jerusalme FOR WORLD PEACE. its at the door . I mean its at the door.

Acts 14:22 - "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the Kingdom of God". Just as Israel had to go through a wilderness that was the exact opposite of the land of milk and honey they had been promised in order to get to their inheritance, wetoo, must do the same. For many of us, we have experienced a wilderness while fulfilling God's purpose for our life. We feel lonely, barren, and unfruitful. We have been so dry and thirsty that we find ourselves crying out to God in desperation. Our life is in disorder, and at times we are confused and irritated. God has a purpose for our wilderness -- He does NOT plan for us to stay there! God brought the Israelites out of Egypt for the purpose of not only proving their hearts but also to give them an opening to be delivered from a slavery mentality. John 16:33 - "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." Hebrews 3:1 - "Therefore, holy brethren, who share in a heavenly call, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession." AFFIRMATION: My confession -- the words I constantly speak day-after-day determine all that I will ever receive from God, whether it's salvation, physical healing, peace, or financial prosperity. Walk with Him along paths of trust. The most direct route between point A and point B on your life-journey is the path of unwavering trust in Him. When your faith falters, you choose a trail that meanders and takes you well out of your way. You will get to point B eventually, but you will have lost precious time and energy. As soon as you realize you have wandered from your trust-path, look to Him and whisper, “I trust You, Jesus.” This affirmation will help you get back on track. The farther you roam along paths of unbelief, the harder it is to remember that He is with you. Anxious thoughts branch off in all directions, taking you farther and farther from awareness of His Presence. You need to voice your trust in Him frequently. This simple act of faith will keep you walking along straight paths with Him. Trust in Him with all your heart, and He will make your paths straight. "Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord, the Lord, is the Rock eternal." - Isaiah 26:4 "Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you." - Psalm 9:10 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight." - Proverbs 3:5–6 ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

Yes, we sure do need to be gathering and exhorting one another . Its grieves my heart dearly for what I see in so many. They running to man, they running to doctrines of this stuff , seeing it not for what it is, but rather a means to a solution . the problem is , if many cannot discern, if they cannot see this is all false and wrong and is leading none to THE TRUE CHRIST how will they discern when the head of all evil stands. they will heed his solution for world peace and unity. they will see him as a man of love and unity and peace. IF they see this interfaith , this all inclusive as the way , they will see its head as THE WAY and heed it without a second glance. The man of sin does destroy , but HOW..............THROUGH PEACE he will do it. and they being led right to him by this spirit of anti Christ that is in so many men of renown , in media , its everywhere now . through religion , through media , through the gay and transgender movment the world and churches and different religions are all being duped by a false love , a false unity , they cant see it. I am so sad for them. I was one of the worst , the worst and GOD had mercy on me. HE Would have had it on them too, IF ONLY they had come to Christ . but this world , this religion , the media and politics are all spouting the very same IDEA of all inclusive they just doing it in different ways, but the results will be the same. ALL will believe when they have people like us rounded up that we are nothing but haters and know not Love like they do. when really it was us WHO had GODS REAL LOVE in us and were warning them because we loved and desired life for them. Do not expect the same from them . hate leads to murder. it was never us who hated,. IT was them. and the monster of all hate , cloaked as love, will show the true teeth. for it will have no tolerance , though it preached it, it will have no love, though it preached it.........FOR ITS ENEMIES and all who go under the delusion will believe they do gods will for world peace and unity when they have us killed. Talk about deluosion. but it is increasing fast.

Hi frienduff thaylorde, That is so insightful, I believe - `who by peace,`....and who doesn`t want peace, but through whom? and can anyone or any organisation bring peace? Only the Prince of Peace, as we well know. Great to encourage each other with what we are seeing. Marilyn.

Paul had an answer in Philippians 1: 23-26 that still keeps me thinking: "For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again." The question to myself is which way would I choose if I am given the choices Paul had?

I agree, most of the ones I know do indeed discipline their children in accordance with Scripture. However, children will be children and at times they will make noise. Doesn't give the a-okay for others in the church to be hateful toward them and in my opinion that's exactly what it is when someone passes one of those "lovely glances" their way. "But Jesus said,'Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.'” Matthew 19:14

Folks we are going to see more and more of this so buckle up. We should pray for them.

I was fortunate and never experienced the deep toxicity and dysfunction that many have. However, over the years, I've listened to many people who have talked about it. Forgiveness and reconciliation are two entirely different things. In part, forgiveness is changing our views and feelings toward a person and what they did so that it no longer eats us up inside. We've let it go and perhaps see that person in a new light. It does not require that the person actually change. We unilaterally decide to change our feelings. The bottom line is that forgiveness frees us from emotional or spiritual bondage that ties us up. Reconciliation means that there has been a change on that person's part as well as ours that makes a new relationship possible. If the other person (who has hurt us) does not change, it may NOT be safe spiritually, emotionally, or even physically to re-establish (or continue) a relationship with them. To forgive someone does NOT mean that you have to put or leave yourself in a position where they can continue to hurt you. Forgiveness does not automatically restore trust. Trust is something that is developed by someone's consistent long-term actions and behavior. Sometimes it can be good to find an experienced pastor or Christian counselor to talk to about such matters in person. These people will have seen many situations and be able to give some good practical advice as well.

Hang in there brother. God's still working on you. I don't think any of us grow spiritually as fast as we would like. The main thing is hanging in there and letting God help us grow. One thing that is a challenge (for most of us) is getting into long term habits that are spiritually healthy that help us grow. About the only practical advice I can think of is to figure out what works for you spiritually. For some people, praying in the morning when they wake up works, for others it's at night before bed, for others it might be at different times during the day. The same goes for bible reading. For some it works better in morning or for others at night. Some people read a single passage or verse and think and pray about it. Others might read a number of chapters at once. We also have different needs with respect to having Christian friends and people we hang around with. There've been times in my life where my local church was it, at other times a small group, for a period of about 6 months it was an online forum. It's what each of us individually needs to do at a given time that is best for us.

And He is soon coming again!

"Be Honest, What are we trusting in" Ah, God the Holy Spirit's specific call to me and His reveal of God the Son Jesus the Christ, as sent by God the Father to provide the complete perfect atoning propitiation for my sins, so that I may be seen by God the Father as holy as He is Holy, and be found acceptable in His sight, washed white as snow by the shed blood of my Lord and personal savior our Lord Jesus. Close enough?

Sad to read.

Many scholars believed Paul's Thorn in Flesh was the Mediterranean Eye Disease he received when He saw Jesus (Acts 9). However, Paul says, "or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." (2 Corinthians 12:7), and ESV lends more light on why, "So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited." Concieted is proud, and it is written, "But He gives greater grace. Therefore He says: God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble," (James 4:6), "In the same way, you who are younger must accept the authority of the elders. And all of you, dress yourselves in humility as you relate to one another, for God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. So humble yourselves under the mighty power of God, and at the right time he will lift you up in honor," (1 Peter 5:5-6), and "The LORD detests (considers an abomination) all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished." (Proverbs 16:5). I thus conclude that Christ allowed a messenger of Satan to torment Paul so that he didn't become proud, because becoming proud is far worse than a thorn in flesh.

We know this did not happen. We know the prophecy was false. What do we do now? Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance. Let him go to God about this and show him mercy. Thread closed.

This one little thought is super powerful and gave me a lot to think on personally today. Thanks for this, WFH.

One thing that I have done is write down on a small piece of paper or note card a scripture about walking in the spirit to not gratify the desires of the flesh. I think scripture memorization is very beneficial. Also, carrying around gospel tracks to hand out to people is a good conversations starter and gets people thinking about eternity. Another thing I have done, which I need to do again, is i would lay out my bible open on my island countertop in the kitchen and everytime i would walk past it i would read a verse and move the stickynote down to keep my place. I would get through a few chapters during the day. I did this when I was struggling with food temptation. I like what you said about how its only by practicing the Truth that we can discern good from evil. That reminds me of the analogy I've heard "how can you spot a fake 20 dollar bill? But knowing a real one inside and out." the more we are in the Word, and the Word is seeping into our souls, the more we can spot the tricks and subtle lies of the enemy.

The "Thorn in the Flesh" is the passage that gives deliverance ministers nightmares. A case where the LORD will not remove the tormentor, because Paul become proud is worse than having an affliction from a messenger of Satan.

Yes, its liberating to realize that only God's assessment of us counts for anything. Some try to make themselves feel better by comparing themselves to other believers but that's prideful. For we are not bold to class or compare ourselves with some of those who commend themselves; but when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding. 2 Corinthians 10:12 God gives us each a measure of faith and spiritual gifts to use for the edification of the body of Christ. He wants us to invest what He's given us and bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23 Walking in the Spirit will keep us alert and sustain us until His return.

Millard Erickson's take on this issue strongly influenced the development of my opinions on this issue. Many years ago in one version of his systematic theology book, he did a nice job of laying out the various beliefs of various systems of Calvinists and Arminians. He then summarized it as this: Calvinists believe that God determines an individual's eternal destination. Arminians believe God lets the individual make that choice. Everything else is putting details onto that single core belief. He then went on to indicate that he thought that some form of Calvinism was most consistent with scripture though there were issues with that. After years of pondering which one was right, I started to wonder if human logic (which says one or the other has to be correct and the other wrong) should be applied in this case or not. I've now come to believe that this is a false dichotomy and that scripture indeed teaches both. As Christians, we use this approach to both the Trinity and the humanity/deity of Christ. I accept the full deity and full humanity of Christ. Why? Because there are scriptures that clearly indicate Jesus was human and there are scriptures that clearly indicate He was divine. Many heresies developed because people applied a logic that said He could not be human and divine at the same time. I accept the Trinity. Why? Because there are scriptures that clearly indicate that there is one God and there are scriptures that clearly indicate that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. Many heresies developed because people applied a logic that lead to a rejection of the Trinity. I can freely talk about Jesus as being a human being without fear of violating scripture. I can freely talk about Jesus being God without fear of violating scripture. But I cannot deny that Jesus was human or deny He was divine without violating scripture. I think that both calvinists and arminians both make the same fundamental error. They assume that human logic holds and that only one of them can be correct. Either God decides an individual's fate or the individual does. Both sides believe that only one of them can be correct. Calvinists thus reject the plain meaning of scriptures that indicate that individuals have the free will to determine their eternal destination. Arminians thus reject the plain meaning of scriptures that indicate that God determines an individual's eternal destination. When I read passages of Scripture such as Exodus 8, 9, and 10, I take them on their face value. Scripture says God hardened Pharaoh's heart means that He did. Scripture says that Pharaoh hardened his heart means that he did. Calvinists and Arminians are forced to "explain" what these scriptures "really" mean and reject their plain meaning. I'd give my opinion of both by adapting what Paul wrote to the Corinthians. "My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”;another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." and For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task." Would Paul today condemn those who say "I follow Calvin" or "I follow Arminius"? I think he probably would. Some of the more extremists of those views hold that the opposite side is a heresy. I've seen Christians of good conscience and reputable life refuse to fellowship and minister with other Christians of good conscience and reputable life over whether they answer the question, "can a Christian lose their salvation?" with the "correct" answer.

Very well put gentlemen: don't trust in Theology - Trust Only in God Alone. I was unfortunate to have a pastor that got into the Calvinist model. It was so ugly and so hard to reason with this man. I read the foreword of one of Pink's books and felt physically sick. Horrible. I am wondering if this has not the earmarks of a 'cult' since it is so disheartening and so soul destroying.

Has anyone written anything about the midway point between these two schools of thought? I believe there is free will to withdraw relationship with God. Jesus said “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15: 5-6 NJKV. Why would Jesus state that "if anyone does not abide in Me.." if it is not possible to walk away from the relationship by free will? I also believe that we are saved by grace and not by free will. It is the grace of God that draws us to God. Jesus said "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44. We cannot put God in a box by believing that he only operates in one way only. Both schools will always find scriptures to prove they are right. Maybe they are right to an extent. If Adam did not have free will to eat out of the forbidden tree there would be no mention of disobedience to God's word. God is not a deceiver who would punish us for disobeying him while at the same time knows that we do not have the free will to decide to yield our members unto righteousness as per Paul's words in Romans 6:13 "And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God".

Source: Matt Slick Exposed

The NAR is definitely a very real threat to true Christianity. However for those that are in God's Word and know what it says we can see the NAR as a danger and the false teaching that comes out of that movement is just plain wrong. What the sad reality is though is those within the movement live of an emotional high. They wan't more, more and more. Eventually they will be disappointed and spiral downward into depression and anger. They become anger at God and the world and it takes time to make them see the real truth of what God says. The danger in this movement however is the fact that is sounds, looks and feels like it is Christian but it is not. Those that follow this movement are definitely examples of 2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." This is exactly what is happening and even so called Christians are diving into the movement. Satan can pose as an angel of light and I think that in this case this is a very clear example of this. Folks stay in the word and know what God's Word says that way we can live up to Ephesians 4:14 "Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming."

And even worse sister............is that wicked interfaith that is calling everything home to rome. The last time I checked GOD desires the GLORY and no other god gets it. And if dagon fell over at the presence of the ark , why on earth is the pope and many others kissing keyrans or korans and buddas for world peace. I have a saying , but truly its in the bible...............HEY peoples...................KISS THE SON , not the calf of interfaith lest HE be ANGRY.

Hi mabel, Yes, `smooth operators` & `selling a product,` just about sums them up. I`m glad we can encourage each other as we discern what is not of God. Of course coming to the `pointy` end of things for us, we would expect there to be all sorts of `tricks and schemes` of the devil through people. The KISS formulae is good - Keep It Simple Sweetie. A former pastor in Scotland, was dying and some of the last words he said, were - Christ is a great Saviour and I am a great sinner. Reality. Keeps us from the hype and in the everyday life of others. all the best, Marilyn.

hello Marilyn yeah i thought it might be linked it all sounds a bit sqeaky to me. in this (mess) together, script. i thought of you when i saw it and i thought to myself i wonder if this is .... so then the next thought is what about these feel good preachers Meyer for one Olsteen for another, as a quick random example. are they sailing in this direction. i mean if they get us to believe...and look at the coverage they get and the volume of folk that they reach. yeah had a very brief listen but i dont wanna listen to much o it. as it seems more like a product than a Godly thing.

Hi mabel, Glad you have checked out this `cult.` Cobalt said it well. My added thought is that they are teaching Dominionism, which is a ramped up version of Postmillennialism. This means that they believe they have to take `dominion` of the world in 7 areas - Government, education, arts & entertainment, family, religion, media & the economy. They believe even if they have `good people` not necessarily believers in high positions, then they can usher in a new world and then Jesus will come. Thus all their meetings etc are based on hype etc. Good to know this false teaching as it is coming through all religious organisations under the guise of `Together we can change, transform the world.` Look out for that slogan. You can look up `The 7 mountains` on the net, and see a short video on their teaching. all the best, Marilyn.