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There are two general approaches Christians take to the established historical fact that there are differences among existing manuscripts. The first approach is to look passage by passage and ask what is the most likely original reading? The second approach is to look at the entirety of the manuscripts and ask which manuscript is the real Word of God? In general, most Christians have accepted a passage by passage approach. Various witnesses are considered. These witnesses include full and partial manuscripts of the NT, quotations (or paraphrases) of passages in the preserved writings of various church fathers, lectionaries (which were the weekly or daily NT readings for churches or monasteries), commentaries by church fathers and others, as well as ancient translations of the Greek NT into other languages (including Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Gothic, and others). Scholars will consider a particular passage and look and find every occurrence of this passage that they can find in any of these witnesses. They then evaluate which witnesses seem most credible as to which reading was most likely the original. The resulting text that they produce is often referred to as an eclectic text or a critical text. In Europe, the first critical text of the Greek NT was produced by Erasmus in his Novum Instrumentum Omne (which was his new Latin translation with which he included his version of the Greek NT). It was based on 6 manuscripts he had available to him. He later produced more versions including a few more manuscripts he acquired access to. Over the years, as more and older Greek (both full and partial) manuscripts were found and as more other witnesses (lectionaries, quotations in other works, and more manuscripts of translations in other languages) were found, scholars would start to include those in their consideration. Over the years, a minority of Christians have accepted some variation of an all-or-nothing approach based on their belief in a doctrine often referred to as preservation. There are different variations of preservation belief. But in general, it could be described as the belief that God has preserved a word-for-word perfect copy of His Word for people in different generations and language groups. For Christians of this viewpoint, the question is which manuscript (or manuscripts) are the real Word of God and which contain errors. Their main concern is identifying which manuscript (or manuscripts) God has supernaturally preserved His Word in. By logical extension for many people with this belief, this also means pointing out which manuscripts contain errors and should be rejected as not being the perfect Word of God. For those with a passage-by-passage outlook, the presence of imperfect humans in the transmission of scripture is simply accepted in the same manner that we accept congregations, ministries, and individual Christians as being flawed and imperfect but used by God nonetheless. As a practical matter, we come together as a body and humbly learn from each other knowing that we need each other. People with a passage by passage outlook see the various witnesses as the voices of Christians and scholars across the centuries contributing what they used as scripture. They would say that these manuscripts were indeed the actual NT that many Christians had and used across centuries. Minor differences between them yes, but still used by God for those Christians as scripture. For those with a preservationist outlook, God has overcome human frailty by supernaturally preserving a perfect word for word scripture. For them it thus becomes the duty and obligations of Christians to identify that single perfect word for word scripture and reject the others. When reading any source about the text of the Greek New Testament, it is important to note their bias. Do they believe in a passage-by-passage approach or an all-or-nothing approach? For those with a passage-by-passage outlook, they are willing to look at all witnesses and weigh them for a particular passage. They will consider some witnesses more credible than others, but overall, each witness is given a voice at the table to be heard. For those with an all-or-nothing outlook, they will only consider weighing witnesses in their entirety. For them, it is determining which witnesses need to be rejected in their entirety and not considered at all. Once a witness has been rejected, it should not be considered again. As a practical matter, there is a small group of Christians today which hold to a particular variation of preservation belief that one particular iteration of the KJV Bible is the preserved Word of God for all English speaking peoples. For these Christians, it has become a critical matter of both faith and practice that only the KJV be used as scripture. By extension, many of them hold that the particular Greek text used by the KJV translators (one of the iterations of the Textus Receptus) was The preserved Greek text of the NT. As a result, for these KJV preservationists, all Greek manuscripts and witnesses are judged on solely one criteria, do they agree with the KJV and its underlying Greek text or not? To the extent a Greek manuscript disagrees with the KJV and its underlying Greek text, it is to be rejected. For all of their discussing manuscripts, it is ultimately about only one issue which is whether a particular manuscript agrees with the KJV or not. Similarly, there is a small group that holds that a particular iteration of the Textus Receptus (frequently the one used by the KJV translators) is the preserved Word of God. They are willing to accommodate new English translations based on that particular Greek text. However, they too seem to evaluate various manuscripts and witnesses solely on the basis of their level of agreement with the iteration of the TR that was used by the KJV translators. In spite of their appearance of openness to discussing historical matters, all of their judgements about the credibility of ancient witnesses boils down to their belief that a particular iteration of the TR is the preserved word-for-word Greek New Testament as penned by the original writers. Some of the KJV-preservationists are quite extreme in their views. I've encountered a few that even recommend burning non-KJV bibles. It is often people with that level of zeal and outlook that produce large amounts of material on websites "proving" why old manuscripts are at best error-ridden and at worst satanically influenced. They go through various English versions of the Bible comparing them to the KJV version. Some of them firmly believe that many of these differences are due to the devil corrupting God's Word. Many of them have produced elaborate and detail tables of differences along with accusations about how the devil supposedly influenced those changes. For these Christians, it has become a critical matter of faith to defend the KJV from the devil's attacks and promote it as the real Word of God. Of necessity for them, they must always proclaim how and why they believe that there are problems with all ancient manuscripts and witnesses which did not lead to the KJV. In my opinion, the issue comes down to this, did God use imperfect human beings in the transmission of scripture through the centuries or did He supernaturally preserve a word for word scripture? For those who believe God used imperfect humans (in the same way He uses imperfect humans in all types of ministries), the question becomes one of considering passage by passage what each different group of Christians over the centuries used as scripture. For those who believe in preservation, the question becomes determining which manuscript or translation is the preserved Word of God.

The spirit of the anti-Christ is closer than we can imagine. The spirit of the anti-Christ denies the Lord Jesus Christ in the following way: It leads people to a dead faith in Christ, without deliverance the person is lukewarm and not free indeed from the dominion of the flesh. "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:36 People under the spirit of the anti-Christ are as a result, spiritually blind because they are in the flesh. They are heading to hell without even knowing. They believe in Christ but deny Him by their works. People under the spirit of the anti-Christ are afraid of being free from sin, flesh, and its evil desires; and are greatly discouraged to do so. "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit." - Matthew 7:15-17 They are led to believe that they should remain in the practice of sinning, and by result they do not repent indeed nor receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:22-23 "For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." - Acts 8:23 They resist to answer the faith God put in their hearts, as they believe they would be working to be saved if they do so. But aren't we supposed to do good in Christ?! Then what is the problem?! "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." - Matthew 11:30 As a result, they do not seek a holy life, they have communion with their flesh and sin. They may even want to be free, but they are just partially free and are not free indeed, as it is impossible to be achieved without the Spirit of the real Christ in them. They cannot indeed be free because they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only who can set people free from ALL sin. "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:34-36 They are also instructed not to ask anything in prayer, because they are mistakenly taught that they cannot ask as this will be an offense to God. While the will of the Father is exactly this: To seek, to ask, and to knock. "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." - Matthew 7:7-8 People under the spirit of the anti-Christ clearly deny the Lord Jesus by their works. They see obedience to Christ as an offense, are oppressed by the spirit who says: "You cannot obey Him. You would be working to be saved, just trust in Him without works" "They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work." - Titus 1:16 Works that people with the spirit of the anti-Christ are heavily oppressed to avoid are: Holiness, walking in the Spirit, complete denial of the flesh, praying with faith and confidence, asking spiritual things to the Father. As a result they are lukewarm and spiritually blind. The truth is not in them. "whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them." - 2 Corinthians 4:4 If they stay in such state they will reap condemnation. Because as much they wanted to be free, they cannot do it while denying the Lord Jesus. And without the Holy Spirit of God in them, they will always love the flesh more than Him. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." - John 3:19 My friend, my friend, the Lord is calling you today... My sheep come and be free, in the name of the Lord Jesus. We know all good things come from God, and that we are commanded by the Lord to pray and to ask. If the spirit of the anti-Christ is in you, you will not be able to pray for repentance and the gift of the Holy Spirit. If you cannot ask for this, praying with all sincerity of your heart: "Lord Jesus, forgive me. I do not want to have any pleasure or any fun in sin anymore. I want to abhor sin and all that is evil. Lord Jesus, set me free. I am yours, fully yours! Father, give me the Holy Spirit in Jesus' name. Amen!" If you cannot pray for this with all sincerity of your heart then you are not free in Christ, but is being deceived. Repent, turn, and live! "However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting." - Matthew 17:21 Or you will start making excuses, will you simply reject the Holy Spirit?! If you do so, you need urgent deliverance. "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning." - James 1:17 What is bad in asking to be free from sin?! It is not only good, but the apostle Paul also wrote. The problem is that the spirit of the anti-Christ denies Christ and does not want the real Spirit of Christ to dwell in you. "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9 And obey God, obey Christ, obey Him, only Satan will discourage you obedience to the Lord Jesus. You will not lose your salvation if you obey Him and do what He is asking you to do. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." - Matthew 5:16 Then, please, do not be afraid to: Walk holy, walk in love, walk in the spirit, be free of all sin, walk in true faith combined with these good fruits. "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." - John 15:5 Which is the Lord Jesus working in you, His Spirit dwelling in you puts the desire to do good. Then, do good! "For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men" - 1 Peter 2:15 Without the Lord Jesus in you, you cannot be free from the flesh, you cannot stop love sinning. It is impossible if Christ is not in you; and the spirit of the anti-Christ will discourage you and oppress you to avoid these things. It will give you false accusations, such as: You are working to be saved, you will be condemned, and much more. All to make you deny Christ through your works. And many, many is falling in such trap. The Lord Jesus will not condemn you if you choose to do what He told us to. To be free, completely, from the dominion of the flesh, its evil desires... And to abhor sin, and all that is evil and wicked. "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:34-36 "So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." - Revelation 12:9 God bless you in Jesus' name! Amen.

Why does Paul write we are saved by faith not of works least any man boast. What kind of works does he mean ? Works of righteousness. Any good work cannot be the reason God saves us. How does a man get his righteous standing before God. Answer: Inputed righteousness of christ. How ? Through faith in the name of Jesus Christ the son of God. Is the saved person left in bodage in his sins ? No he is regenerated by the holy spirit into a new creation in christ Jesus. He cannot remain in sin because the seed of God remains in him. The seed of God is his new nature. Made alive by the holy spirit. The new man now wants to live by every word out of the mouth of God. Can the new man sin ? Yes the old man is still in his flesh. How does he live by the new man ? By walking in the spirit. The new man desires the things of the spirit. The old man the disires of the flesh. The new man kills all the earthly things in the flesh. The man in christ does not allow the old man to live. Why ? Because we have died with christ and have been risen with him to newness of life. Its not i who lives but its christ Jesus who lives in me.

I feel I am having so many butting head issue on here because no one seems to want to learn anything. It is like you know your right about some topic. You post that topic on a discussion bored which means people are open to discussing it, but there seems to be no room for discussing. The poster knows they are right in all that they say about the topic and is only posting the topic so that other people join in with agreement with them. This is not how I think a discussion bored should be. Thus I think the reason why I have so many issues with other posters at times. No one is listing to anyone else and no one ever considers that maybe they are wrong in their thinking. They just say "this is how it is end of story good bye!" I mean what is the point of all of that? I post topics not because I think I am 100% right, but because I think I could be right, but I want to run this by some other people and see what they have to say about. If they can show me I am mistaken in my thinking then I consider that. But so many topic posted on here are just "I am right and if you disagree with me you disagree with God" type of post. It is like trying to debate the Sunday morning sermon with the pastor while he is preaching it. Dose anyone else see this going on here? Maybe it is just me? Maybe I need to take some more time off?

Spirit of anti Christ , has long been at work . and it will lead to a son of perdition an ANTI CHRIST . the two are one really . So since anti Christ spirit was brought up . Let a warning be heard . Many thinks the son of perdtion will be muslim or for sure wont rise from within christanity. But I would like to point out a clear fact that none can deny . JUDAS betrayed JESUS . JUDAS sold him out Judas was as one amongst them , and JESUS called judas , THE SON OF PERDITOIN . I got to warn and no man can stop me WE got a bad pretender leading in interfaith . beware that one , beware that system and beware all gong into unity with it .

The spirit of anti Christ is at work . This spirit denies Christ THE CHRIST . THE CHRIST is one we follow and obey without question . IF we want to see an example of anti Christ spirit at work , LOOK AT INTEFAITH , it denies JESUS as the only way . Interfaith is not Christian . ITS of anti Christ spirit . Why do I bring this up . because its a easy one to spot . See its concepts are GOD is in all religions and that jesus at most is just one way . ITS DENIED HIM as the ONLY WAY . Just cause one says Jesus is Christ , and yet says that garbage too , don't mean they OF CHRIST at all. any who leads in interfaith is of anti Christ . We have to take the bible as a whole . never let one part omit another part . Oprah wimphrey is a real easy one to spot , she is of the spirit of anti Christ . they preach many christs , many paths etc . ITS OF ANTI CHRIST . this should easily be agreed with . I mean its so easy to spot those . Some are more sly You be blessed yowm.

If you mean we are saved not of works and now obey because we beieve in jesus finish work and his lordship then your right. Thats good frienduff.

Hi angel4u its not been clear on this board that we are saved not by works. And its because they confuse justification with sanctification. We are created for good works. And they come from christ in us the hope of glory. If we say we have to do good works to earn our salvation. Then its not from christ our hope. Its only from us. God gets all the glory and worship !

God loves us!

I have had a beard since the last day of high school.....50 years ago.It was never to be in style or to make a statement.I absolutely HATE shaving! Lol...

Because you act like you are better than everyone else. It's not that you are "warning" others, it is the manner in which you do it. You need to get over yourself and speak as an equal and not as though you are better.

I was already typing this up when GandalfTheWise posted his response. So I'll include below what I was going to post, which largely chimes in with what he was saying above: About your second situation, the obvious verses would be Psalm 34:7, with the singular "angel of the Lord" referring to a commander of the heavenly host, since the sentence mentions how he/ they will encamp around (i.e. surround) those who fear God. A very strong example of this 2 Kings 6:17, though it will doubtfully take an entire army of angels to protect your household. Just take a bottle of anointing oil that you have prayed over and walk around your entire house, proclaiming Psalm 34:7 over your home and anointing the corners of the house and every room you feel led to bless, including things like closets. Take your granddaughter with you, and remind her not to let anything in your home by her own volition by participating in anything occult. As for the first, just repeat what you did last time, the key being to speak it in faith. You could also recite the verse that He has given us the power to tread on scorpions and snakes (Luke 10:19), and then say "therefore...," and command them in Jesus' name. That would serve as a warning to any demons that if they dared in ANY way whatsoever to manifest, they will be cast out. It's mostly attitude, Melissa, which comes from true faith. The greater your faith, the less you will tolerate, and the more steadfastness you will have in expelling them. Faith increases as you grow in His word and in your relationship with Him, so keep focusing on that and you will be fine.

I've been considering this issue quite a lot lately. Most believers don't realize it, but even the apostle Paul or the Lord Jesus Christ Himself could post incognito on a topic, and for the most part it would go right passed them and they would begin arguing. The reason is simply that we are not in a place in church history where many have ears to hear. Most just adopt a certain doctrinal line on a subject and then take it upon themselves to become a "defender of the faith." But what's usually missing is a combination of humility and genuine scriptural knowledge. The lack of humility makes believers insist on saving face even when they are clearly being disproven, and the lack of genuine scriptural knowledge makes them defensive if someone posts something that contradicts what they've been taught, or if something they post gets challenged. Look for mature believers, and interact with them. They are usually easy to spot. Often they are older (though not always), but what you will see is a habitual practice of manifesting respect for others, even during debate. James, Chapter 3 addresses this. The wise man can be distinguished from the foolish by how he behaves, not just what he teaches, which makes how they behave sort of a dead giveaway. I have friends of different persuasions, doctrinally and politically, with whom I very much enjoy discussing things even though we disagree, because I know they are of the right Spirit and even if I am wrong they will not insult me. Unfortunately, these types of believers are in the minority, but they are around. You just have to take note of people, watch their responses (i.e. their behavior), and learn what to expect. I haven't been here long, but there are certainly a few good ones here I've noticed already. Btw, the proper spelling for "bored," at least the way you are using it, is actually "board." Just thought I'd throw that in there while the context was about being good-hearted.

Thanks brother for holding up the light of His word very high....so that by it we can SEE clearly. Glory to the Lord and thanks be to His name. Help us Jesus.

The spirit of antichrist comes in their own name, pretending to come in HIS name.....that is the reason it is so deceptive. But when somebody really does come in HIS name, him they don't receive.

This seems to be a general message to all.....and it applies only to whoever it does apply. Similar to the kind of messages we may have heard out of many a pulpit. Except that because he does not stand in a pulpit up on a stage as a 'somebody' who is better than us it is harder to receive the message. You know brother, as I mentioned elsewhere.........John the Baptist/Elijah came preaching repentance to God's own people, who you would have thought wouldn't need it....he didn't come preaching it to those on the outside. In looking at the lesson of the Israelites, the church in the wilderness, we see that after crossing the Red Sea and coming out of Egypt........there still remained for the people of God, another river to cross to enter into the kingdom, the promised land of rest.....another baptism to receive. So we must not just put down stakes and camp out where we are, but keep on keeping on, working out our salvation......until by the grace and mercy of the Lord we get there.

I am not against other opinions. But want to refute theres if there not according to the text.

People it took a long time for me to understsand justification. I use to belong to the wordwide church of God. We believe works was part of justification. But inpossible. By his merits we are inputed the righteousness of christ.

Is it attack day about OSAS today instead of Happy Resurrection day? Wayne, I'm so sorry for all the Bible verses they throw at you, I agree with you brother that if we are truly saved by grace, God is able to help us to run the race until the day comes that we meet Him! He has given us the Holy Spirit and a new heart to help us with our daily struggles and if we sin, we have a heavenly father who will forgive us our sins ,no sin is too big or little to forgive. I'm so thankful that I'm saved by grace because on my own I would not be able to finish the race without struggling and therefore losing the race. The gift of the Holy Spirit is an amazing gift and I don't think we often enough realize that there would be no conviction of sin if it's not through the Holy Spirit. Why would I want to sin on purpose knowing where Jesus saved me from? He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand.Ps.40:2 I will glory in the LORD; let the afflicted hear and rejoice.ps.34:1 Grace, grace, wonderful grace

Here's a pattern I've seen on this forum and others: 1. An idea, situation, or belief is presented with scripture and at times other information (commentary, other scripture, translation details) to support it 2. A response is added saying effectively "Scripture says this. You're wrong" 3. The original source or perhaps someone else adds a question such as this: "The original translation is based on this word which could mean these three things. Depending on the bible version, the meaning and how it's applied is different. Which meaning and application is correct?" 4. The next response is generally a personal attack on the original source. "You keep twisting scripture. The Word is perfect. You are evil and trying to make us sin." 5. At times, the attack also attempts (and frequently succeeds) in dragging the discussion into a side argument involving unrelated topics.

You were very kind in your words and I thank you for that. If I may speak from a personal side. Having read the NIV, I have never come across anything in there that in anyway seem to be of the dark side. No scriptures have I ever read from the NIV has directed me to go against God's teachings in anyway. I grew up in the 70's and 80's. I had a KJV Bible until around the late 70's when I got an NIV children's Bible that the Sunday School teaches passed out in church to all the kids one Sunday. I loved that Bible and read it over and over again. I still have it somewhere in my box of keep safe things. Later on I got an NIV Bible for a graduation gift from my church. I used that one for 20 years until it started to fall apart from use. In all those years of reading the NIV, I have never found anything that pointed to satin having a hand it any of it. Nothing that would take me off my path and lead me astray. Nothing that was ever "water down" or change to make the reader "feel happy", as many on here have accused it of doing so. It states clearly what is sin. The same things that are sins in the KJV are pointed out as sin in the NIV as well. Just as the KJV tells you how to live a Christian life. So dose the NIV. Is the NIV a perfect translation? No I do not think so. Even the people who put it together do not think that it is perfect. But I do not believe in anyway that it is of satin's making. Once again thank you for speaking kindly to me. I think I have beat this topic to death now. God Bless and have a Good Day.

Works...they have been shown in Scripture where God is completely destroying all we have began in and worked in... 'ALL' 2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) [10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? [13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. If we take this reality and apply it to the rest of Scripture we see differently than the world sees: (why Peter says what manner of persons ought ye to be) First the fact: Verse 11 is the central aspect Peter is trying to get across and it is The Holiness of God communicating His intent of eternity... why would a Holy Righteous God want to keep that which is next to the sin... it is not sin but it is next to the sin Jude 23 (KJV) [23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. [24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, [25] To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Many may jump to conclusion this is a form of the error of thought that created matter is evil and only Spirit is good but clearly that is not what I have written thus far... but that a Holy Righteous God Who allows no place for the lie in what He has created had to create place and that being the eternal lake of fire... it was not of The original creation because of the sanctification of all that He had made... because satan had not rebelled yet and perversion of truth (lie) had not been born out of satan claiming himself to be god... Genesis 2:3 (KJV) [3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. and that through the fact that God's abilities are without end in the framework of His Own Persons we understand why the new heavens and new earth and His hatred of sin is so complete even the garment which is not sin yet is next to the sin is hated as well... This builds a really different aspect of the work we do of God~ wherein we do it not for this list 1 Corinthians 3:11 (KJV) [11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. I know I know most all commentaries say the gold, silver, precious stones are lasting works... 1 Peter 1:7 (KJV) [7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: [8] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: [9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. but are they according to the leading of God's Word? Are they? 'All the works therein are burned up'... We see the support of this in how the new births of the begin of The Church in Jerusalem were selling all that they had and giving it to the needs of those around them... this activity fits exactly to the motivation of the truth of s/Spirit now born within them! The only value was in the souls around them not in the things one possessed... Second fact built upon first: The Lord warns us about the subtly of satan and must be!~ due to fact 1/3 of the angels and God's image (man) followed him instead of the One Who Created them... Throughout Scripture God speaks hatred and judgment against the whore Babylon... I believe this to be the system of the world and the tentacles that reach all facets of what appear to be necessary for life in the death... this system is seen in it's power of influence by our commentaries on 1Cor 3:11-15 all proclaiming lasting works of material that God 'IS' going to completely burn up ... I mean really 'you say that is all we have here to work with how do we keep reward?' Now the beautiful design of God can be revealed without the convolution of that which passes away to that which is kept forever: Third fact the righteous witness of The Scriptures: These verses of Scripture shall resonate now differently as one separates or rightly divides The Scriptures- Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) [6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. notice the only necessary element in pleasing God 'IS' faith alone but what is the Biblical definition of faith Chapter 11:1 [1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. the pin point if my eyes behold it~ it is not of the faith! Rather if I cling to that which passes away then I have no evidence of faith... God makes this statement 1 Corinthians 2:9 (KJV) [9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. [10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. [11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Tying this all together... We understand by faith that where we are and what will be cannot be perceived by us now but we have the capacity to accept and even live as though is already was because it is foundational in The Scripture which builds this faith necessary to please God Romans 10:17 (KJV) [17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So the heart that is totally detached with the value system of the world and walks by faith also walks in t/The s/Spirit not in the flesh and we who do not place any value upon that which passes away with the things God 'IS' keeping -we literally are ready for transference into that which we do not know and will not look back to any value whatsoever to that which is left for the fire >when God has accomplished His Word within it<.... Our works are built upon God's Word of the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen and all that is of this darkness which Paul speaks of here 1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) [12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. the perception of eternal things will not be fully perceived until there! The danger of those who do not see will place a definition upon faith with things seen... they will combine the things of now with the things that they perceive to be with the manipulation of things around them expecting God's acceptance of.... but the things which passes away cannot be expected to be kept with the things that do not pass away yet here they are doing just that Matthew 7:21 (KJV) [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. The will of God is that you walk according to His Word by Faith alone in His Son alone by His grace alone... [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This statement is formed in eternity: faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone.... Love, Steven

NOPE . its just if we have faith we simply do good works . All based on one work, To believe in the ONE whom GOD did send.

It don't my brother . even the psalms say praise him on the cymbals , praise him with the trumpet , singing and all. So on that note , PRAISE THE LORD PEOPLES .

This is so very true! Yes, we, Gods children are the Church, but there is a Church Building where we meet, and it is usually referred to as our Home Church, and nothing wrong with that. For many Christians, those Church Buildings have deep, Spiritual, and wonderful meanings/memories. There's a church in the valley by the wildwood, No lovelier place in the dale, No spot is so dear to my childhood, As the little brown church in the dale. [chorus] (Oh, come, come, come, come) Oh, come to the church in the wildwood, Come to the church in the dale, No spot is so dear to my childhood, As the little brown church in the dale. How sweet on a clear Sunday morning, To listen to the clear ringing bells, Its tones so sweetly are calling, Oh come to the church in the dale.

Also i forgot to add. Abraham was fully conviced God was able to do what he promise. So that was why Abraham faith was counted as righteousness. And we are counted the same way if we beieve God raise christ from the dead. He was delivered for our sins and raised for our justification. Its by faith alone not works. So it could be by grace. If its by works then its not by faith. Works is the evidence of a faith that believes in God.

Hi brother Older manuscripts haven't been over-written. They just date from an earlier time. The logic goes like this: manuscripts wear out, so copies are made before they fall to pieces. 100 years later, the copy wears out so another copy is made of the copy. And so the process goes on... Each time a manuscript is copied, it's possible for errors to creep in. Things may be left out, or put in accidentally. So as a general rule, the older the manuscript, the fewer errors it's likely to have. It's the newer ones that have the alterations - it's just that if you're accustomed to the 'newer' text, it feels like it's the other way round. Being thrown away doesn't imply that a manuscript was flawed. Worn-out manuscripts may have been thrown away once the copy was made, but not necessarily. Take the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example. They weren't "thrown away" but carefully hidden for safe keeping - so well hidden that they weren't found again for nearly 2000 years! I don't know why you should be suspicious of manuscripts found in a monastery. For 1000 years, the only libraries in Europe were in monasteries. That means that virtually every Biblical manuscript has passed through a monastery at some point in its life.

9:16 Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.

Thank you Hidden in Him. Your advice is great too. You and Gandalf are good spiritual warriors. With this kind of encouragement (which I receive all the time at Worthy), I'm sure my faith will grow. I had written you a better reply but it disappeared, and I was frustrated, so that's why this is so short. Everything you said in your comment is helpful, and I did read the bible verses you presented to me. I really don't tolerate them now, don't like them, and don't let them bother me too much. Nevertheless, I prefer to be safe than sorry. God Bless You!

Thanks so much for your reply Gandalf! I appreciate that you took the time to share some of your personal experiences with me. As I read the above quote, it reminded me of the OT (as you mentioned), and the fact that many of Israel's forefathers would pray blessings over their children. Just as God would bless them. The men of God in the ancient world, such as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob; and even women such as Sarah, who bore a child in her old age - all of them gave and received spiritual blessings. So even though doing a blessing on a home or a person may only be "symbolic", I believe that when it's done in faith, it has great spiritual significance. I both liked and laughed about the prayers and blessings you did when your daughter was a teenager. What a great idea! Lol, I bet it was kind of cool to be the dad who always knew what she was up to! My discernment regarding spiritual things (and the presence of unwelcome things) used to be pretty good. In fact, I used to think it was a gift. Sadly, after more than a decade of being one of God's rebellious daughters (kind of like a teenager, huh?!), my discernment has faded a great deal. Yet after reading your comment, I'm more determined than ever to get back on a regular prayer and bible reading routine. I agree that our victory over the enemy has more to do with our faith in Jesus Christ, than with what words we choose to use. I know it's the spirit within me that does the actual battling, not my flesh. With your encouragement, and that of everyone else here, I know I can get back to the heart of Jesus. I won't give up and I'll keep trying! Thanks again for your suggestions. I will do it this weekend. God Bless You!

Well , if I had not read so many other posts I would have said , guess I am the only one who has done this . but nope , I see others do it too. If he wants to answer let him. OH , I better get off so I can log in under his name now . what a laugh, oh its not you , its wayen. I actually got tickled when he said that . but I suppose it shows who he resents the most . What was I saying to Four D, oh yeah time to take that adivice. REJOICE , REJIOCE , REJIOCE . anyway you be blessed now yowm.

You mean his post . he said he is seen as the enemy . SOME Do see him as that . maybe not you , but some do . And asking him if he thinks he is JESUS , aint helping . He don't think that . If people would not come after his posts , and instead just rejoice in the exhortations we would be fine . When paul wrote his letters and used the word sinners or etc , was he talking to the whole church sayng they were , or was he just exhorting the whole church. same with james , he said you adulterers and adulteresses , but he wasn't calling the whole church that . My question to us all is this if we can rejoice in the promises , WHICH we should , then how come we cant rejoice in the grave exhortations too. My conscious is clear , that is why every warning to every promise is just wonderful edification for me . And I don't have to change one ounce of Gods image to have peace . an example , I don't have to believe their is no such thing as a lake of fire , I don't have to believe GOD is love and he understands my sin and that he knows I cant stop TO have PEACE . I just have PEACE in HIM . Now this was just a general reminder , not saying anything about you or others . Why do you think some men love different versions of GOD . Because to some the GOD of the BIBLE scares them to death , so that is why we have so many different teachings , so men can FEEL SAFE . but I AM saved , because HE saved me and HE changed me and keeps working on me. Grave teachings don't cause me to lose my peace. nope , it only edifies me , reminds me of things I already know . same with praises , songs , encouragments , promises . Cause I KNOW GOD does not desire me or any to perish , BUT I ALSO KNOW many will. and that is a fact . We cannot change GOD to have peace or feel safe. LET HIM change us and HIS desire IS FOR US . but as I also said , many are going to find out too little too late , they followed mans version of JESUS NOT JESUS . this is what I do not want for any. its why we need to be reminded of HIS SAYINGS , let nothing grow cold , let none fall from the first love either. How many men you know that have changed teachings . THe bible is easy to understand , SO WHY do we have SO MANY different teachings . WHY, cause man did this . You know THIS is true . the bible is not complex at all, IF WE HAVE HIM , we learn as a simple child . please let us put this behind us .

Wayen , its absolutely true . I hate the evil present within my flesh. my desire is no longer of the flesh. The flesh still tempts YES , but that is no longer my hearts desire . I HATE the evil in my own flesh. This is THE SPIRIT man within . the heart really does get changed. Our desire IS to sin no more , OR IT SHOULD BE . however due to we still live IN bodies of flesh which as you done said are contrary we will be tempted. BUT IF WE HEED THE SPIRIT and not the flesh , chief by HIS POWER we wont obey that temptation when it pops n our minds . JESUS was tempted in all points and he is able TO SUCCOR them who are tempted . GIVE AIDE , HE is our way OUT of every temptation . So when my friend of many letters just reminds us of BIBLE phrases just heed the reminder is all. Wayen I have to bring something up , cause I worry for you big time . You told me in a post that it was my opinion that the roman system is evil and yours that it is not . Chief that aint opinion I gave you, That was TRUTH. This is why I worry so much for you. So why not pray about it , seek GOD about it , . I did not want to bring it up on this post , but I am worried for you about this .

Perhaps I over-generalized a tad.

46 ? Oh , to be young again! Lol

Just do not forget repentance Yowm, do not forget repentance. Seek peace with God. “but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.” - Acts 26:20 Forgiveness without repentance is not possible. Seek peace with God. “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” - Luke 13:3

Again: “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.” - 1 Corinthians 11:1 “For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps” - 1 Peter 2:21 Glory to God! Amen.

Yes, Paul is a pattern. He beseeches us to be followers of him.

Again ,are you Jesus?

I don't think anyone is acting like they are better..........even though they are better than me because they have better gifts, which are so badly needed in the church today.

And yet you claim He is, as evidenced again by what you highlight but fail to address. Why do they fall away? Because of trouble or persecution on account of the word. You are arguing against your own evidence. The difference is still found in your dismissal of free will, but you aren't going to address that are you? It already played out, that is the whole point, it is a historical viewpoint. No, I mean taking a response I make in regards to passages from Thessalonians and Timothy and trying to paint it as a reference to Matthew or Mark. That is called being deceptive, which is the best you can do since you can't address the points made. I never said Jesus needed to be rescued, I am talking about the host of captives He led out of Abraham's bosom. Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” 9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) That would be all these people. Matthew 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

FWIW, here are a couple stories from my life. Decades ago, I joined a church in the aftermath of a nasty split which was in a very bad spiritual state. I had made it a habit of going and praying in the sanctuary for an hour or so every morning. One morning kneeling at the altar, I just started to feel uncomfortable. After a bit, I just started feeling like someone was standing right behind me. No one was around, so I just prayed out loud something like, "Father, thank you for the blood of Jesus and His atoning work" and I heard something run across the carpet away from me. It sounded like claws catching in carpet (like a cat) that made it out in a couple very fast and long leaps. I was furious that unholy thing would violate God's church (and everything else that was going on from the split). I was ready to walk around praying over the entire church, but God's Spirit stopped me. The real issue was that someone was allowing this to happen and until that was dealt with, my going around the church was merely a temporary fix. Long story after that that doesn't bear telling here. I'm not sure it's so much the exact words, as the authority and faith behind them. From what it sounds like, I don't think you have any problems in that area. Many years ago, a church we were at had a guest speaker who was a pastor from Nigeria. At one service, he prayed for me afterwards (just because I felt like I was supposed to go up and get prayed for, I had no specific request) with just a brief nondescript prayer, but I had several phobias just disappear in that instant. Other people had similar testimonies. He did an evening teaching on spiritual warfare and blessing and curses one night that has stuck with me for many years and had a big influence on how I tend to think of the subject. To put it in context, spiritual warfare was more a minor sidetrack for him, he focused much more on living a Christian life as his main point in teaching. He basically taught a pattern of breaking curses and pronouncing blessings. At first, whether a property, location, building, whatever, it is an issue of praying, taking authority (speaking out loud the name of Jesus and His atoning work through His blood), and simply doing this until discerning that everything "feels" right. This is one of those things that is ultimately a matter of faith. Is a sense of "something wrong" merely subjective feelings or an actual spiritual sense? I think at times it can be either. I take the approach that I might be wrong or I might be right. At times, I'd take whatever was handy for cooking oil (and just a dab! I'm not a "pourer" ) and touch things. Symbolic, but potentially with spiritual significance. From the pastor from Nigeria, whether right or wrong, I learned a pattern of blessing following OT blessings. I cannot recall exactly, but the blessing I pronounced over our house was done something like this around the house. I touched the front door frame with a dab of oil and said something like, be a blessed entry, may peace and joy fall on people as they step through you, may problems, strife, and hurt stay outside, may good pass through and be multiplied, may evil stay away. As people leave you, may love, peace, and power encompass them as they step into the world. From the trees whose growth God blessed and prepared for your boards to come from, from the ores God placed for your nails, from the craftsman whose skill put you here, be a blessed entry and exit for decades to come. May God's blessing and presence be upon each one who steps through you. I did this all around our house and property as I felt led. I've also done similar things at various locations and places and over various objects over the years. (As a note, I did this at a church prayer meeting years ago. My wife noted that the olive oil dabs on the back of the chairs was not evaporating. After I had meticulously gone around praying for each chair and each person who'd be sitting there, we ended up going around trying to clean up the chairs afterwards.) Many years ago, one of our daughters was under some major spiritual attack. One day when she was out, I did this type of breaking curses, pronouncing blessing over her bedroom. She had had trouble sleeping. A few days after I did this (and she did not know that I had), she commented at supper on how much better she was sleeping and that her room just felt different. I also recall she'd been sneaking off to use our basement phone line. I remember going to pray over that phone (after we figured out she'd been doing it) and I almost knocked it off the shelf when I reached out to touch it because I felt like a jolt went through my hand as I reached out. She'd won about a half-dozen of her middle school classmates to Christ the year before and had come under some pretty heavy spiritual attacks. One good lesson I learned from a pastor friend of mine (who is now that daughter's father in law), was that he prayed that God would let him know his kids were up to something that he needed to know about. I prayed that as well. We always let our daughters have their privacy (figuring they'd need to learn to stand on their own two feet at some point in their life, it might was well be at home where we were still a safety net). There were a couple times where God set up a situation where I saw things that I needed to see. I still have to laugh at the deer in the headlights look as she asked "how did you know that?!?" Anyway, hopefully this is of some help. Now, as a disclaimer, it can get challenging in this area of teaching because the Bible really does not contain any long extended explanations and descriptions of exactly what to do, just many stories that describe what happened as a summary or brief statements about believers' spiritual authority. All teachers in this area (at least that I've heard) rely heavily on their experiences and what they've learned from others. Some people definitely get off on weird tangents (e.g. commanding angels to do things or coming up with long extended formulas to say or seeing each and every negative occurrence in life as requiring an exorcism). Over the years, I've tried to listen as much as possible to those people who seemed to be level-headed and open-minded as well as spiritually mature who exhibit a lot of spiritual fruit in their lives completely apart from any spiritual warfare stuff. Your post put me in mind that I just got a new keyboard for my computer and I'd forgotten to pronounce a blessing on it. In the name of Jesus, be a blessing. May you be a tool of blessing, peace, prosperity, and good. May each one who touches you be a channel of God's blessing, glory, mercy, and love. May messages of encouragement, empowering, correction, wisdom, and liberty flow through you. May messages of discouragement, dissension, folly, and error be paused and corrected. May the work that passes through you become a legacy reflecting God's glory for generations to come. May the technical artistry passing through you produce a harvest of prosperity that empowers economic freedom in all who are touched by it. May the teaching that passes through you empower and free those whom are touched by it. May the art that passes through you bring beauty, light, insight, and uplifting to those how are touched by it. May you always be a tool and reminder and conduit of God's glory and mercy. From the plants that God blessed, to the ores that He placed in the ground, from the many designers, craftsmen, and laborers from across the world that went into your construction, you've come to sit on an old wooden desk and soon to be moved to a new place. May you have a long useful life and play your part as a tool in the hands of a master craftsman, and may the ones using you become master craftsmen who can use you to your full capability.

I had heard that the New Testament was Infolded in the Old Testament......To read the Old Testament and actually see it for yourself is a real treat....... Neighber mentioned Zola Levitt—boy, do I miss that man—- he was a great teacher!

Sometimes the topic under discussion is really the topic under discussion; sometimes the topic under discussion is a smoke screen for another topic. For example, in the NIV teen study bible thread, my impression is that two topics were under discussion. One was yet another reason why modern versions should not be used. The second was what type of teaching methods are or are not appropriate for teens or for inclusion in a study bible. My sense of the dynamics of that thread was that you were discussing one topic and inadvertently falling onto the "wrong" side of the other one without realizing it. I commend you for going to the Amazon site to find a preview to try to see what was actually in it for yourself. There are those reading your posts that do appreciate such honesty and efforts and respect you for it. In the long run, you are taking an approach where you will grow, learn, and become a respected wise person that people will come to with questions and concerns. It takes work, but each question you ask and try to answer (whether you find the answer or not) is more practice at learning and growing. It's perhaps small consolation at the moment when you end up with a sick feeling in your stomach when not everyone shares that approach. Hang in there. Learn when to walk away from a thread for your own spiritual wellbeing and to avoid wasting your time. Put your time into reading and responding to spiritually healthy and fruitful threads where you can learn, be spiritually built up, and can make a difference for someone. Look at the posters you most respect and learn the most from and work to become like those people.

The best approach is to do what you've been doing, stay open to discussion yourself, and consider what others say. It is not our job to convince anyone of anything, present your case and reasoning for it, and leave the rest up to God. Frustration with these other things will only come if you allow it to, and just accept that some are not open to what anyone else says. God can convince them of the truth if need be, that should be enough for us. Remember, even Jesus shook the dust off in regards to those who refuse to hear.

And that is why I don't read it . You be blessed now kiwi.

Since when do we need to change the gospel or the Bible to suit people? Its the PEOPLE that the gospel and Bible changes!

IF that bible makes lite of sin , its bye bye time for it . jokes , sarchasams, no wonder lots of churches are less and less serious about anything .

I looked on Amazon and took a look inside a pre-view copy of this Bible. From what I have read it seems it is using sarcasm to get the point across. An example is while it does say alternative definition" for "church" is "what you have to get dressed up for so you can be bored for an hour at a morning service". It is then followed by saying "if you want to stop being bored in church, then start by listing to the sermon." Followed by a few other bits of advice. The same is for the bit about witnessing to your friends. The meaning being yeah, your friends may laugh at you. But here is what you can do. You really need to see the whole picture here. Before tossing things into the fire.

How about if we at WCF start rising above posting and applauding what are potentially uncredited "Christian" smear pieces? How about if we all hold ourselves to the highest standards of integrity and honesty? How about if we would post information in context and not cherry-picked bits and pieces that may or may not accurately portray what someone is saying? How about if we would at least attempt to find the original author of a piece before posting it? The info in the OP appears in several different KJV-only sites without attribution as to who originally wrote it or when they wrote it. Did anyone notice that the definition of sex that everyone is horrified about has not been published in about 20 years? Reading the OP carefully this sentence is included: The 1998 edition of Zondervan’s Teen Study Bible changed the "alternative definition" for "sex". It took five years – but hallelujah, somebody at Zondervan finally woke up (or maybe somebody actually read a King James Bible. . . it COULD happen. . .) Of course, the "alternative definition" in the 1998 lacks much to be desired when compared to God’s serious warning of fornication. The 1998 "alternative definition" for sex reads "a three-letter word with some really l-o-n-g consequences". ) Here are the questions I want to see answered before I will decide what I think about this. 1. What are these "alternative definitions"? Are they meant to be definitive statements? Are these alternative definitions pointing out common errors in thinking? 2. What is the context? These graphics are obviously part of a larger body of teaching. What is that larger teaching? I'm not posting this to defend what is shown. I don't know what to think about the NIV Teen Study Bible because I do not have one in my hands to actually look at and judge the teachings on sex, prayer, and church without seeing the actual pages and context for myself. I am questioning if what is shown is taken in appropriate context and actually reflects what is being taught or if the "alternative" definitions are highlighting misconceptions about the actual teaching. I for one do not jump onto witch hunt band wagons anymore. For the first decade or so that I was a Christian I participated in this sinful behavior of passing on innuendoes and accusations based on cherry-picked content meant to show someone in the worst possible light. I was in essence lying about what someone was intending to say and passing those slurs and accusations on to mislead other Christians. In the 3 decades or so since I repented of that sin, I've been watching zealous Christians commit that very same sin. My sense is most do it ignorantly with good intentions, but it is sin nonetheless. Being right at times does NOT excuse those times which anyone is falsely accused. By holding ourselves to a high standard of integrity and honesty and digging into the facts of a matter before rushing to judgement, we can retain our ability to properly judge right from wrong as well as eliminate those times we are falsely accusing someone of something they did not say.