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The Bible says there is going to be a great falling away in the end times, but the pre-trib camp says there is going to be a great revival. So which view should we believe, I think we are supposed to believe the Bible.

Shalom Tasha, First of all -- welcome to WCF! Are you a believer in Jesus Christ? If not, then that's the first step -- and if you'd like to know more ... simply ask! If you are a believer, most people are never taught the fact that once you are translated from the Kingdom of Darkness to the Kingdom of Light, you've gained a new enemy of your soul that wants to "rob, kill and destroy you!" I often read this passage in Peter as it says, 1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: First Peter describes the very enemy of our souls -- as a lion seeking whom he may devour! 1Pe 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. Notice that believers as they come to faith -- they experience trials and tribulations -- a test so to speak -- but those trials are working for your good -- to make you perfect -- to establish and strengthen and settle you! I know it's a difficult thing to hear, but you're now at war with spiritual forces of darkness and the way to overcome is through and in Him! 1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. This verb in Greek -- gives -- is a active verb which could be translated this way -- who gives us a continually and abiding victory! Most believers never claim their victory -- it's not in who they are -- but in WHO HE IS! Walk in His Victory -- in Him, and you'll soon discover the meaning of what Jesus' said when he said, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” If you have any other questions, feel free to ask away, God bless, George

Please post the chapter and verse, several, that prove the above. Otherwise it's just your opinion.

what do u think, i trying to solve the mystery 2 Cor 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. https://www.openbible.info/topics/spiritual_blindness https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=L7wSW7K0D4eT0PEPlJamwAY&q=spiritual+blindness+scripture&oq=spir&gs_l=psy-ab.3.0.35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1l2j0l2j0i131k1j0j0i131k1j0.2830.3581.0.5398.5.4.0.0.0.0.179.490.0j3.3.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.3.489.0..0i131i20i264k1.0.wLiSYpjpS5c

All things fall into one of two categories; good or evil, light or darkness, righteousness or unrighteousness. All these are just different words describing the same thing. That which is pleasing to God and that which isn’t. Scripture says; God is Holy and in Him is no darkness. He is perfect in all His ways. It is to this perfection we have been called. All of our actions fall into one of these categories. All believers have Christ living in them calling them to this perfection. It is to the degree one yields themselves to the call of God in their hearts, to that degree is the believer listening to the Spirit of Christ in them. The Spirit is given that Christ would be manifested in the life of the believers. This “Christ being formed” in the believer is only according to the believers desire after it, but only according to the believers desire. If a believer desires to run head strong into self, self will be the result, but Christ will not be. Scripture says to whom you yield yourself servants to obey his servants you are. Light or darkness, life or death, good or evil has been put before man. It is to the degree one desires one over the other to that degree will their desires be manifested in their lives. Than each person will be shown what type of work they have built. Wood, hay, stubble or a foundation built firmly on the foundation that is eternal, which is “Christ in us the hope of Glory”. Let us as those that lay claim to Christ press in with all our hearts to the one Who has made such a salvation available to us. much love in Christ, Not me.

This is true. There's a reason why spiritual blindness exists.. Matt 13:11 He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 1 Cor 2:10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. Eph 5:30-32 for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. Col 1:27 For God wanted them to know that the riches and glory of Christ are for you Gentiles, too. And this is the secret: Christ lives in you. This gives you assurance of sharing his glory. Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. God bless ya. - Heb

Good post 4Ld.

Scripture says Revelation 19:10 (KJV) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Paul also does pray that the people the Ephesians would recieve a “Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.” Ephesians 1:17 (KJV) That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: So a deeper “knowning of Him” would therefore be possible, and since the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. Paul prayed that it would be manifested in their lives. If it was for the Ephesians, than it was for all believers. That the testimony of Jesus would be manifested in all our lives which would therefore be the Spirit of prophecy, manifesting in our lives. At least according to scripture. Much love in Christ, Not me

Scripture says; Acts 13:22 (NIV) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.' Scriptues says, a heart after God is precious in His sight. And heart that only seeks after God in all things. Only seeks after righteousness in all things. Only seeks after truth in all things. Goodness for it’s own sake, that we might “be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect.” Scripture says we should “long after the pure milk of the word that we may grow thereby” Growing in Christ or having Christ formed in us is that which puts a smile on Gods face. We as those “accepted in the beloved” should “encourage one another to good works”, as Scripture brings forth. A heart that is totally Gods, that would be willing to do all God asks, is a heart after Him. Question would be; how to get such a heart? The prayer, “Lord I’m willing to be made willing.” Comes to mind. But by whatever words one chooses to use. The heart that hungers and thirsts after righteousness will be filled according to it’s desire, but only according to it’s desire. Let us desire it fully. Much love in Christ, Not me

Remember Saul the king that was before David... Saul was chosen according to the flesh (appearance, people), and David according to the Spirit (heart, God). God bless you in Jesus' name!

I have been of the mind that is was because of Davids eagerness to repent when showed his sin. That was why God said he had a heart after Himself. For David was differently a sinner like me and you. It was his willingness to be taught that pleased God. (My thoughts.) much love in Christ, Not me

Jesus already said how we would recognize false prophets. "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?" - Matthew 7:16 Yes, by their fruits! "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." - 1 John 3:7 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me." - John 15:4 If a prophet is true, he will preach and practice the truth. And consequently, they will bear fruits from the truth. "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." - 1 John 2:6 "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7 In the spiritual sense we are all prophets, some are true and others are false... Most are false, and by their fruits we shall know them. "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." - 1 John 1:6 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1 Most false prophets do not know they are false because they walk in darkness. "Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch." - Matthew 15:14 Keep watching, praying and testing the spirits. "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him." - Acts 5:32

And do not forget that David always repented sincerely when God showed him his iniquity. "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7 Not like many people today who keep resisting and ignoring God's calling to repentance. "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." - 1 John 1:6 It is so sad... It is like people have no love for God - The Father and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. "So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’" - Hebrews 3:11 "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." - Hebrews 3:19 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." - John 3:20

Wrong .... Satan, the beast, and the false prophet will operate in unison together

Excellent post, Wayne... I have an old analogy I made to explain my witnessing (fishing for men/souls) I really enjoying fishing, especially saltwater fishing. I learned as a kid from my grandfather. I got older and with no boat, I fished off the pier. Put the bait on, cast it out. Wait. If the fish came along, I might catch some. If no fish came, no fish caught. Then one day going to work along the bay, I saw several old timers coming out of the water, from wade fishing. And they all had long stringers of fish, and it was still early morning. And no bait buckets. ??? Got up early next morning, still dark, went down where I saw where those wade fishermen were, and saw them fishing. I learned a lot after meeting them. First, they don't use a live bait, but lures. All kinds, depending the conditions. Surface lures, diving lures for deep, dark and light colored depending on the sun, fast action in summer, slow in the winter when it's cold and the fish move slowly. And they didn't stand in one spot, like on the pier. Depending on the tide, and the wind, they moved around till they found the fish. And they could really catch them. They were seasoned fishermen. And I learned from them how to catch fish. Applied to fishing for men/souls, I can't just wait for them to maybe come along. I have to go out, and depending on conditions, search them out. I have to use the 'bait-lure-conversation, depending upon who I'm talking to. It's different with everybody, but the same also. I have to act. And I never push for a sinners prayer. I simply explain for them to get before God, at home, and simply talk to Him, and ask Him for help. I don't try to 'reel them in'. I sow seeds. In any soil. I may never know. Doesn't matter. Hopefully there will be some sprouts shooting up behind me in my path. But there won't be any if I don't sow those seeds. Psa 126:5-6 They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him. 'Sowing in the morning, sowing seeds of kindness, Sowing in the noontide and the dewy eve; Waiting for the harvest, and the time of reaping, We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves'.

2 Tim 3:15-17 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. KJV

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Mat 19:21-23 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. Even when Jesus, the ultimate witness, shared the truth, the lose of wealth was too much to bear for the rich man. I have had much contact with wealthy clients over the years working for them in my trade. I do not recall them having any greater rejection when listening to a casual witness of the good news. It was more of an atmosphere of hurriedness, not time to discuss 'religion'. That was for Sunday, maybe. Just not interested. I receive more hostile replies from the more educated fellows, with degrees types, philosophical thinkers. Young. Not interested in archaic traditions. Modern thinkers. Those that might say "You really believe that stuff?" However, if the right situation came along, such as a lose of all their wealth, family tragedies, I believe they might be more receptive to the gospel than those who were lost but believed they were saved. My first step in witnessing, after prayer and acknowledging the Lord, is to share how I found out I was lost, and why I was lost, and how I then heard the good news. This is to help them understand their own lost condition. If they do not understand they are lost, doomed to eternal punishment, they have no reason to "change their thinking"(repent) One tiny seed can start an avalanche of thought, which causes questions. Good. Faith comes by hearing. The word.

Some say, 'The River is flowing. Just step in.' But we need to say, 'Just step in, and the river will flow.' Some are passively waiting to see what God will do, while He is waiting for us to exercise faith to see Him move with power. Mark said it well: "And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord kept WORKING WITH THEM and confirming the message by the attesting signs and miracles that closely accompanied it" (Mark 16:20). God worked with them instead of them working with God. THEY had a responsibility to step in FIRST. AS WE SEEK HIS PRESENCE -- THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO SAY, "OH WELL, THAT WAS NICE," AND THEN GO ON WITH OUR EVERY DAY LIVES! PRESS HIM AND STEP IN! Jesus had just risen from the dead and had been seen by the women. However, not all understood or believed. Two disciples were walking towards Emmaus talking about these confusing events when Jesus joined them (Luke 24:13-32). They did not recognize Him but listened intently as He explained from the prophets of old all that He had accomplished for them. When they reached their destination, Jesus acted as if He would go on. What do we do when it appears that the refreshing of the Spirit that we have experienced is moving on? These two disciples PRESSED Him to stay with them. They were not passive about this. There is a time in which we must press Him to continue to move with power through our hunger, prayers, faith, and actions. We must step in! Jacob wrestled with God for the blessing even after the Man told him to release Him. He received a name change and a character change. Even more than that, Jacob received a face-to-face encounter with God! Are you hungry for that? One touch from God can change things within you that will not change through years of counseling! One day, a storm arose while the disciples were in a boat. Jesus walked on the water towards them, but acted as if He were going to walk right by them! Their cries attracted Him, and He stepped in and stilled the storm. Do you need a breakthrough from the Lord? Don't give up. Remember that His delays are not denials. PARABLES BRING OUT THE HUNGER FOR GOD Jesus often told stories in parables. Why did He do this? He did this in order to divide the crowd. Only those who were hungry and committed enough to ask Jesus the meaning would receive the deeper meaning. Those who were half-hearted and gave little thought to what Jesus said would not. We must have a deep-seated commitment and hunger for God and His work among us to receive all that He has for us. Jesus told us that the Kingdom is like a treasure hidden in a field (Matthew 13:44). It was so valuable that a man sold all he had to get that treasure. When God's presence and work among us is so valuable that we would lay down other things for it, we will have it. The men on the road to Emmaus so valued this Man's presence and words to them, that they convinced Him to stay with them. What happened next was amazing! Luke 24:30 tells us: "But as soon as He had sat down with them, and had taken the bread and had blessed and broken it and was handing it to them, their eyes were opened and they recognized Him." Jesus did something that would have been culturally unacceptable at the time. HE took the bread, blessed and broke it. It was the father or master's responsibility to do that, not the visitors. THAT was when their eyes were opened. Jesus does not want to be a visitor in our life. He wants to be in charge. This is not passivity on our part! THE NECESSITY OF "STEPPING IN" We allow Him to move and to be Lord as we pursue His PURPOSE for our life through our hunger and faith. We must give Him abundant opportunities to manifest supernaturally in our midst through stepping out and laying hands on people. When we allow God to take the place of Lord over our lives, and not our traditions and church programs, He will reveal Himself in such a way that eyes are opened! People will know Him! These disciples knew the facts of Jesus' death and resurrection from what Jesus had taught them, but they did not know Him! As they pressed Him to stay and allowed Him to take the place of Lord, they received that "MORE!" THEY KNEW HIM! GLORY! Let's not allow this time of refreshing to pass without pressing Him for MORE! QUESTIONS TO ASK MYSELF: Do I want to know Him in a deeper way? Do I want to be changed from the inside out? Do I want to see people saved, healed, and set free? Step in! ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY http://afministry.ning.com

You just don’t get it, do you?You seem to be totally void about anything that e ven approaches self- insight. I am not talking about being a murderer,a rapist or a robber or anything like that.Like Spurgeon I am talking about one who has the wisdom and enough self- recognition to see that even though God has saved us and changed us for the better, there is still a part of us deep inside that still has secret thoughts that would shame Hell and we will need a whole lot of grace throughout our lives whether we have been saved 5 minutes or 50 years.Spurgeon understood it . I understand it. How about you? Grace is what gets us Home——not lucky repentance in that last second before we die.Faith plus nothing

The subject of this thread is about the hardest people to witness to.Gary Lee brought up an excellent point that I expounded on.He mentioned that you got to convince people they are lost before you can get them saved.I think people such as that are VERY difficult to witness to—- completely in sync with the spirit of the thread.....call me paranoid, but i am starting to sense that Butero doesn’t want me around......when I refer to myself as “ lazy”...... that is what you call a self- depreciation joke.....If I were lazy I wouldn’t be in here posting stuff all the time.A more apt description would be “ weary”..... I’m not going to respond individually to dozens of items when I can sum them up with a one- sentence response.That response is Paul said if we believe his Gospel we will be saved - not put on probation or forced to become Biblical lawyers to try to find another verse to trip us up.God made the promise.The responsibility to fulfill that promise is on His shoulders.If there is something out there I must do to remain saveD or something out there I must not do to keep me saved, God will take care of it. That’s called faith.I actually believe God can and will save me, despite my ignorance, stupidity and weak flesh.Trying to witness to people that worship at the alter of “ lucky , last second repentance” is very difficult. Can a person who substitutes HIS repentance over God’s grace be truly saved?I don’t know and I am joyful that I don’t have to worry about it.Faith plus nothing btw....I agree with James about that “ dead faith” thingy.....works don’t save, but they will follow faith as sure as night follows day

Some say that when God says” no” He sometimes means”No—- I’ve got something better”

Do continue to stay in the Word. God "speaks" to use through it most of all. The more we put it in our hearts and minds, the more He "speaks" to us. Lean on that, and not dreams or voices or some such. Sometimes God's answer is not "no" but is "not now" or "wait." Have patience! Our faith is not blind, but based on an assurance that God always keeps His promises. God bless!

Exodus 16:4 - "Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or no." GOD TOOK A LITTLE, INSIGNIFICANT MATTER, THE FOOD THEY ATE--AND USED IT TO SEE IF THEY WOULD LISTEN TO HIM OR NOT. HE TOLD THEM HOW MUCH OF IT TO GATHER, WHEN TO GATHER AND WHEN NOT TO, AND WHAT TO DO WITH IT AFTER THEY BROUGHT IT IN. AND THE ISRAELITES WENT RIGHT OUT AND VIOLATED THOSE INSTRUCTIONS. THEY SHOWED GOD BY THEIR ACTIONS THAT HIS VOICE WAS NOT IMPORTANT TO THEM. THEY WERE NOT WILLING TO OBEY EVEN HIS SIMPLEST COMMANDS. GOD WORKS THE SAME WAY WITH US TODAY. BEFORE HE SENDS US ON A MAJOR MISSION, HE GIVES US THE OPPORTUNITY TO PROVE WE CAN BE TRUSTED WITH SMALL INSTRUCTIONS. Luke 16:10 - "He who is faithful in a very little (thing), is faithful also in much." Ephesians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ." The earthly minded will constantly try to restrain those who are seekers of God with such statements as,"don't become so heavenly minded that you are no earthly good," which is precisely the opposite of true wisdom. Heaven is the realm into which we are called to abide with Christ Jesus, and the only truly effective ministry we will ever have on this earth is originated from that position. The church that becomes too earthly minded is not doing the earth any good. We are called to be a bridge between heaven and earth, and to represent the reality of all we have been given in Christ Jesus in the heavenly places. Christians should be so saturated with heaven that it is more real to them than anything in the natural realm. Ephesians 2:4-6 - "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus." "Then he said, 'Take the arrows,' and the king took them. Elisha told him, 'Strike the ground.' He struck it three times and stopped. The man of God was angry with him and said, 'You should have struck the ground five or six times; then you would have defeated Aram and completely destroyed it. But now you will defeat it only three times.'" - 2 Kings 13:18-19 Breakthrough IS Coming: Keep Striking the Ground! Do not be discouraged if at first you don't see your victory manifest. Breakthrough will first happen in the spiritual, then in the natural. Just because you can't see it in the physical does not mean it isn't happening in the spiritual. Keep on striking the ground! What has been barren and withered for so long will begin to revive and flourish. And the good news is? All that you need for breakthrough has already been given to you; it's already there! The Lord has deposited that miracle within you and it will bear fruit as long as we walk in accordance with the principles of the Kingdom. Affirmation: I AM WILLING TO HUMBLE MYSELF, LAY DOWN MY OWN AGENDAS/AMBITIONS, AND WORK IN PARTNERSHIP WITH GOD -- KEEPING MY EYES FIXED ON JESUS. ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY http://afministry.ning.com

Great thread Wayne, I love your analogy of it and he filled them not once but twice, once in the beginning with his disciples and the second at the end with his disciples on the seashore.

Good post Mike. There are all types of fish to be caught. Sometimes the person who looks most like they would not hear the word gets saved. And even in church we see people on the outside. And never see the inner part. I once thought i could never get people to respone to me. But one day in a bookstore i spoke the word and a small group of people stop and heard mem . We must not be afraid to look foolish. God word will not return to him void but will bear fruit through the power of the spirit.

Interesting how "the souls" weren't caught until they listened to Jesus. Had a dream one night, turns out it was tied in to the season I was going through in my spiritual walk. A well respected preacher came up to me while I was working a BBQ and asks me with a smile 'Watcha' got for me?' I rather sheepishly pick up 2 small lunch baggies with a small fish cooked golden brown in each one and embarrassingly give them to him, he gleefully accepts them with a huge smile ......then I wake up................. Whhaaaat? So I'm thinking about this dream and slowly it dawns on me that you can catch a minnow, you can catch a shark, you can catch a trout, you can catch a marlin, but....a fish is a fish is a fish. You can catch one in the ocean, in a polluted river ,in a creek or a stagnant pond , still a fish is a fish is a fish! Doesn't matter what it looks like , where it is or where it came from...a fish is a fish is a fish. A soul is a soul is a soul...doesn't matter what it looks like, where its coming from or where it is right now. I was struggling with the people that were in my life. I was involved with Sunday school all along thinking I should be teaching adults at church, with some people outside church that were drug addicts, alcoholics, I was going in to a prison, I was talking with homosexuals that were coming to church and struggling with their desires, plus there were the people that would stop in to my work to talk about their repeated difficulties that I knew would go away if they would ..just.... . I was frustrated with the setbacks I was seeing with many, if only they would get rid of this or that they would find God. Except for the kids, these people I was involved with had lives that I thought would be so much better if they would just change their environment. Frankly, in doing that, they would be be more acceptable in society and their lives would be better. It does not matter what sin is in a persons life or where they are in their spiritual journey, Jesus the Son of God comes into that. I have since been to bible studies with people holding a bible in one hand and a beer in the other, with needles falling out of pockets while discussing the gospel. God does not care where the fish is caught or what it looks like. The reality is He does not require anyone to change before he will come into their lives...only we do. Jesus is not physically walking around on the earth right now, we as sons (and daughters) of God are now doing that with His Spirit within us. That's how Jesus appears in the world today, through us. We have to put our idea of what good fishing looks like aside and put our net down where our Lord directs us....He knows where the fish are biting and doesn't look at the outside but the desire of the soul inside. Something we don't do because we are caught up in looking at physical appearances and cultures. Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to his disciples, Why does your Master take food with tax-farmers and sinners? Mat 9:12 But on hearing this he said, Those who are well have no need of a medical man, but those who are ill. Mat 9:13 But go and take to heart the sense of these words, My desire is for mercy, not offerings: for I have come not to get the upright, but sinners. A fish is a fish is a fish

Don't hate her....realize that you and your friends are hating her behavior, not really her. Don't let her behavior turn you all into hateful people. The devil would love that. Maybe you can explain the above to your Christian friends...that you all should still do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Pray for her, maybe have group prayer for her? Jesus said to pray for our enemies and do good to those who despitefully use us. The girl is probably under conviction by the Holy Spirit. She may soon become a Christian.... don't give up. You don't need to spend alot of time with her but still be nice to her.

I only post on this site, and I'm fairly certain that there is no "history here." I honestly think you have me confused with someone else. I have a pretty good recollection of people I've engaged on this forum (maybe less the older I get) and what you describe doesn't sound familiar at all. What I do disagree with is the discussion tactic of special revelation where "God showed me this" becomes unquestionable proof. The user Iamlamad engages in this too. I've come to realize that when people play the "special revelation" card, they're there to force-feed people their views, regardless of whatever purpose they might claim. That's why I disengaged. I've been down that road enough to know its a dead-end. Like I've said numerous times before concerning eschatology, believe what you want. It doesn't matter. What matters is that we build our lives on the truth of God's word, that we act on the teachings of Jesus. And if that's a "wisenheimerism" that you find offensive, well, I can't help that. It's the truth.

Wow. Sounds testing. Those who hurt the most need the most love. It would be a good idea for you to ask you bestie to get on your side and invest time in praying for this person. Be respectful and look for the good points however small they be. Boasting can be a sign of needing to be noticed or acknowledged. Dont feed the boast with attention. Maybe find ways to give her attention for positive charactar traits. Learn about boundaries and set them. Ask God to reveal to you the best way to help. Good communication is always a help. Eg i dont like it when you demand of me. I respond better when asked. Be the blessing.

I don't know about all that. As far as Rome being any kind of candidate for anything in end time prophecy is, I think, a nonstarter. I would not liken any prophetic scripture about the end of the age to a Roman fulfillment. Regarding the 7 hills thing...there are dozens of cities around the world that are built or claim to be built on 7 hills. Not sure Rome is the only viable choice for that prophecy. Mecca is also the city of 7 hills and so could seemingly fulfill this as well. If the truth of " and of all that were slain upon the earth." is killing in war, then every country is a candidate. Many countries killed in war, and long before the US existed. Why this idea that the US and/or Rome must fulfill prophecies? I don't see that anywhere in scripture. The only possible place I see the US is, "The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach." Possibly this is the US assisting Israel in time of need. We are the great eagle. Maybe this is what the US was prepared to do. Maybe it's only true purpose. I cannot say for sure. You'll probably say that Rome is the fourth kingdom in Daniel. Maybe you'll also cite Rev 17:10, "...one is...", therefore Rome. Overwhelming evidence points away from Rome and toward the Middle East; specifically Mesopotamia and the region of ancient Babylon. I'm just not convinced.

Good morning. I have done some research into this as well. You missed a couple things on your list. Rev 18, "wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! " "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." It's a city. One city. It doesn't represent a nation. If there is any representation it's a spiritual one. The city is real but also represents a foul spiritual condition. The real warning to come out of her is not physical; it's spiritual. Don't be like the evil of that great city. In the Arab countries there are cities richer and far more disgusting than most cities in the world. China boasts the busiest port in the world. Of the top 10 ports in the world China has 7, including Hong Kong. The port of Los Angeles is the 17th busiest port. Interestingly, Dubai is the 9th. You should take a look at the lifestyle in Dubai. Fits Rev 18 like a glove. But I don't know that it's any of these. One cannot get away from, "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.". What city is guilty of this? Or country? I think this is a city yet to come, or an existing city that becomes Rev 18. It would not surprise me if Babylon the city rose again.

We as the church have sort of hit a wall theologically. We have identified legalism as something bad, and it is. Salvation is a free gift, as is sanctification. But we have assumed that if we do anything, it is trying to earn or to keep our salvation and so we have come to the point of Spiritual paralysis. We have been forced to simply assume we can do nothing, so deep is our fear of becoming modern legalist. So.... here we have sat. It has sort of left us like the lame man at the pool of Bethesda. If we can’t do anything, then we are left waiting on God to do it for us. So we have been left to sort of simply ‘exist’, mark time, and have been told that only time is what is needed to see us sanctified and purified, and to begin reflecting the character of Jesus. We are left like the lame man who had been there for almost four decades, waiting for God to stir the waters so we can be set free from the old us and begin to actually begin our metamorphosis to look like Jesus. And like him, we too are left to wait, week after week, sermon after sermon, year after yearand before long we find that we get into a religious rut, going through the motions, but we never actually see ourselves being changed, never truly tasting freedom. The lame man was asked by our Lord “Would you be made whole?” And the man simply spoke the truth. He had no man to carry him quickly to the stirred waters fist so He could get healed. After all, he was lame. Even the blind had a better chance of stumbling into the water than he did. He simply had no way to see it done and get the healing he longed for. Guess what? We are in the same boat, aren’t we? We are, in ourselves, spiritually crippled. We cannot make ourselves like Christ no matter how hard we try? Defeat sin in our lives? Who are we kidding? And what exercise does one do if they are impatient? We laugh and say you better not pray for it, for God will send us things to ‘test’ our patience, as if that will do it. It does not, amen? Like that lame man, we too are paralyzed, forced to wait on God to move on us, and we believe there is nothing we can do to speed things along. Listen. We have been lied to by the enemy of our souls. We need to realize that God wants us whole, victorious, free indeed , and filled with joy and praise, and He has given us clear instruction as to how to do it, and the best part? It involves NO work. Let’s look at an amazing verse found in 2 Peter 1:3 Here it is: “ According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness.” Peter begins by saying, in essence, “Let’s get one thing nailed down. We are not prisoners of time, where we simply have to wait on God to move. He already HAS moved. Right now, today, we have what we need to walk in freedom and victory. We have everything that we need to walk in victory, and everything we need to bear fruits that are Christ’s very nature grown in us by the Holy Spirit.” Now that, brothers, is good news! But it is the very next verse, 1 Peter 1:4, that is the revelation as to HOW we go about getting our transformation kicked into gear in our lives. “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Do you see it? Oh, I pray you do. What can we DO without doing? We can believe His promises. Not hope for. That is future .Believe is always present tense. NOW faith. Guys, I understand the hesitancy of many here as to what I have been asked to share. The promises of God are meant to stretch us. They are meant to be hard to believe. Heck, we serve a supernatural God! Nothing is too hard for Him, even setting us free for our carnal nature we have assumed we are saddled with til He takes us home! That is the first promise we need to claim. What did Peter say? That we have... past tense.... escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. But getting freed from the grip of sin by putting off our old nature is not the end of our walk of victory as we have thought, it is the beginning! What comes next after being fully grafted into Him? Fruitfulness! Christ’s character flowing through us till we begin to bear fruits.... Christ’s very character... grown in us for all to see and for us to marvel at. And how do we get those fruits to begin to sprout? Exactly the same way we got saved. Exactly the same way we put off our ol$ nature and put on our new man. We use the promises of God as stepping stones into His likeness. Look. I have a long way to go in my own transformation, But God has taken an angry man, laden with sin, with harsh judgmentalism , with impatience and mean spiritedness, with self love ruling the roost and in these past eleven years He has and continues to change me from the inside out. Thank you, Lord. His promises are not meant to just be printed on motivational Christian posters to decorate our church walls. They are meant for us to believe them! This is HOW we are called to grow into His likeness! We DO nothing. But we BELIEVE everything God has promised us! And as we do and add to our faith... through our faith.... patience, kindness, gentleness, meekness, a servant’s spirit, then to our amazement we discover how amazing and full and sure our salvation really is. And lest we forget,there is an amazing and critically important fruit of the Spirit we nd to claim through faith. What is it? Self control! Satan has taught us we need self control to grow and to become Christlike. Ha! It is virtually the direct opposite. When we finally discover we can claim self control, because the old us is truly dead and gone, to our amazement, those sins that before slew us, we can now literally set aside. Glory to God! Blessings, Gideon

That pretty much confirms what I had suspected.

This is right up there with "God told me." It's another posturing tactic. It points to the deficiency of a weak argument.

Many books and sermons have addressed the topic of the identity of Babylon. I tend to believe that is indeed Rome. Comparing Babylon to America, actual Babylon in Iraq, or the former U.S.S.R., or England is a game of pure speculation. Current events change. I see the image in Daniel 2 with its head as Nebuchadnezzar, his breast and his arms of silver is the Medo Persians, his belly and his thighs of brass is Grecia, and his legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay is Rome. The feet are smashed. Later, Daniel records that part of the fourth kingdom is strong and part weak. Rome, as an empire is gone, but its state church remains to this day. Rome is the only city recognized as a nation.

Remember though that the Greek NT quoted the Hebrew OT so therefore the NT is a translation from the OT in places. So if this happened it can be reasonable to assume that the KJV is perfect. I dont know how you can say that venerating the KJB can be a work of the flesh. Since the Spirit agrees with the KJB Bible then to me the KJV Supporters are acting spiritually when they agree to holding onto the Authority of Scripture. The KJV Bible has to be perfect because there are no other English Bibles that come close to being a candidate for being perfect. Since God is still God today He has kept His words for us so we aren't in the dark, the verses about inspiration and perservation of God's word speak the truth. Sorry i dont see your point here. The ESV New Testament is based on the Westcott-Hort Greek text which differs from the Traditional Greek text that underlies the King James Bible; it omits some 5000 words, including 18 entire verses in the New Testament alone. The Old Testament is a random mixture of texts from the Hebrew Masoretic tradition, readings from the alleged pre-Christian Greek Septuagint, Samaritan Pentateuch, Syriac, and Vulgate. It is the old RSV in a new garb. In the New Testament, the RSV and the ESV are missing the following whole verses. Matthew 12:47 (though the NASB, NIV have it, but omit or bracket the others) Matthew 17:21; 18:11; 23:14; Mark 7:16; 9:44, 46; 11:26; 15:18; most of Luke 9:55-56; all of Luke 17:36; 23:17; John 5:4, Acts 8:37; 15:34; 24:7; 28:29; Romans 16:24, and most of 1 John 5:7. So, yeah, we can see that the ESV is not "close enough" to the King James Bible, right? I Tim. 3:16 KJV -- "And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh." For hundred of years, millions of Christian have read these glorious words, and have known most certainly in their hearts that the One Who came from the glory of Heaven, to die on the cross of Calvary for our sins, was truly "God, manifest in the flesh." Before the Devil can have a world church, or a world Bible, this tremendous witness to the Deity of our Lord must be removed. In no other way could the conflicting religious views of the world's many religions be reconciled, except by the elimination of all Scriptures that teach the Deity of Christ. We are not therefore surprised to find the New American Standard Version and that of the Jehovah Witnesses, uniting in the rejection of this great Scripture, or rather in the alteration of it so that the Deity of Christ is no longer clearly stated. Dr. Frank Logsdon, member of the translation committee for the New American Standard Version (NASB), has denounced his work on that Bible and urged all Christians to return to the Authorized Version, commonly known as the King James Bible. Logsdon finally said, "I'm in trouble; I can't refute these arguments; it's wrong; it's terribly wrong; it's frightfully wrong; and what am I going to do about it?" Logsdon shocked publisher Dewey Lockman by writing, "I must under God renounce every attachment to the New American Standard." Logsdon then began to travel extensively, trying to make up for his error by explaining to people the very simple reasons why the Authorized Version is the one Bible which is absolutely 100% correct. Along with many other scholars, Logsdon had blindly accepted the basic argument used today to support the use of the two Catholic manuscripts, the Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus, in all modern Bibles. The "experts" claim that these are the oldest manuscripts in existence, so they must be the best! In one of his many public speeches, Logsdon explained, "When there is an omission that might be observed, they put in the margin, ‘Not in the oldest manuscripts.' But they don't tell you what those oldest manuscripts are. What oldest manuscripts? Or they say, ‘Not in the best manuscripts.' What are the best manuscripts? They don't tell you. You see how subtle that is? Logsdon's advice? If you hold the Authorized Version, and someone tries to prod you to accept another, "You don't need to defend it; you don't need to apologize for it. "Just say, ‘Well, did this new version or this translation come down through the Roman Catholic stream? If so, count me out.'" KJV Believers have two camps. One is the Modern Bible Version Camp and the other is the Authorized King James Bible camp. The former is from Catholic Manuscripts - the Vaticanus/Sinaiticus from Egypt and the latter is the Textus Receptus/Received Text/Majority Text that comes from Antioch Syria. Where the Christians were first called Christians. I'm saying that the NASB and KJV can agree in places, but then there are many differences, just having these 2 verses does not give us the big picture. Well i dont see it as KJV Believers wanting to be exclusive, that is not their aim, there aim is the truth and they believe in the KJV Bible as their Sole Authority and tell others of a perfect Bible. The Spirit does not contradict Himself, nor does the Spirit want the Christian to be confused about Scripture. 2 TIMOTHY 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Yet if the scripture is not really scripture then it wont be profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Thanks Botz for this opportunity, i have an interest in the Bible Version Issue, i think it is very profitable for all Christians to consider this, i would like to bring up why there is a need for a perfect English Bible. The Importance of God's Word: Matthew 24:35 reads, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Psalms 138:2 says, "...for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." 1 Peter 1:23 says "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God..." Romans 10:17 says the word of God produces faith: "...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" 1 Peter 2:2 says it produces spiritual growth: "...desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:" Psalm 12:6,7 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." I hope them verses speak for themselves. For God to preserve His word on Earth forever is to mean that God's Perfect word must be on Earth somewhere. Since English is one of the most common languages you probably would suspect that God would have a perfect Bible in that language. My problem is that there are over 250 translations all competing for the title of God's Holy word in the English language. As the Holy Spirit is perfect therefore what the Holy Spirit inspires and preserves must be perfect. Sinful men such as Moses, David, Solomon, Peter, Paul and John have been used by God to produce a Bible that is Perfect from beginning to end. Thankfully we can look at the fruits of the Authorized King James Bible in the past 400 years. The KJV produces good fruit [Mat. 7:17-20.] No modern translation can compare to the KJV when it comes to producing good fruit. For nearly four hundred years, God has used the preaching and teaching of the KJV to bring hundreds of millions to Christ. God used the AKJV to go forth unto the ends of the Earth. Great preachers of the Gospel rose. Great revivals have occurred with the AKJV. I would like to compare that with the Modern Bible Versions. eg the NASB is only 52 years old, the NKJV and NIV less than that. The AKJV is the book that has been printed more than any other book in history! If it aint broke why fix it? I readily admit that “the book of the LORD” (the Holy Bible) was in a rather lengthy process of being perfected and brought to full maturity, the Printing Press was invented in the early 1400's and made possible for a common man to own a copy of the Bible in English. I and thousands of other Bible believers hold that the final product was and is the King James Bible. In general terms the Bible versions that existed before the perfection of the King James Bible followed the same Hebrew texts and the traditional Greek texts. For example, you will find 1 John 5:7 in Wycliffe 1395, Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, the Great Bible 1540, Matthew's Bible 1549, the Bishops Bible 1568 and the Geneva Bible 1560 to 1602. (Even the Catholic Douay-Rheims of 1582 included all of 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one" etc. and not even in brackets. The later Douay version of 1950 still included the phrase but in brackets, but the more recent Catholic versions like the St. Joseph NAB 1968 and the New Jerusalem bible 1985 began to omit the Trinity phrase altogether just like the modern versions like the NASB, RSV, ESV, NIV, NET and Holman versions do. Even regarding the canon of Scripture, or the individual books that taken as a whole form the Bible, a full dogmatic articulation of the canon was not made until the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563 for the Church of England, the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 for British Calvinism. I would hope that you see for yourself the difference between the KJV and all other Modern Bibles, then there is only one, inescapable conclusion you can come to - that the King James Bible is the only one among the hundreds of copies, posers, and pretenders, that has stayed true to the words delivered by God, through angels, to men. It's not about what version you like better, or which one your favorite preacher promotes, but it's about which Bible is the one that God recommends and is pure. Why would the Holy Spirit need to produce new Modern Bibles that contradict the AKJV in many places when God has already given us the AKJV? God is not confused. For God is not the author of confusion. We can change the words of God and expect God not to punish us for doing so? What is the motivation to change God's word? Could Satan be behind the attempt to change God's word through perversions that seek to replace the AKJV? So too in this chapter we read about the book of the LORD. Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail...(Isaiah 34:16) What exactly was this book of the LORD at Isaiah's time in history? Was it all the books of the Bible written up till the time of Isaiah? Was it just the book of Isaiah? In either case the Bible as we know it today was not a completed Book. Isaiah was still being written at this time and there yet lacked many other Old Testament books still to be written. And that's not even mentioning the entire New Testament. Yet God calls it the book of the LORD and commands us to read it. In the NASB we read in Luke 4:4 “man shall not live on bread alone” Now the proper rendering in the AKJV is: “That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God” I hope that the readers of this debate will Pray, and ask the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth.