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Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, angels4u, when the rapture comes there will be no pretribulationists to rapture, those of us who are alive and remain will be, as pretribbers like to call them, "tribulation saints". The day of our rescue is the very day God's wrath begins to fall upon the wicked and the day we rest from persecution (Luke 17:26-30; 2Thes 1:6-10). The day (period of time) in which God's wrath falls suddenly upon the wicked is called the day of the Lord (1Thes 5:2-3, Isa 13:6-11; 2Peter 3:10). The day of the Lord has a cosmic sign which comes before it, which will portend or announce that the day's arrival is at hand (Joel 2:31). John describes seeing this sign at the opening of the sixth seal (Rev 6:12-17). Jesus says that the cosmic sign comes after the tribulation of those days, which in context is the great tribulation (Matt 24:29, 21). Paul associates the coming (parousia) of Christ with our gathering together unto Him in the day of the Lord (Christ) (2Thes 2:1-2; 1Thes 4:15-17). When Christ arrives in the clouds, with the holy angels, at His coming (parousia), He is revealed for all the world to see (Rev 1:7; Matt 24:30). When He appears the earth dwellers who have been complicit in the persecution of the church and Israel are filled with fear and begin to hide (Matt 24:30; Luke 21:25-28; Rev 6:12-17). When He appears, the saints that will have survived the unprecedented persecution will be looking to the skies in expectation of His arrival because it was announced by the cosmic sign (Luke 21:28). Christ then, in a moment of time, resurrects the dead in Christ and changes, to make immortal, the living believer (Dan 12:2; 1Cor 15:23, 51-52; Rev 20:4-6). Christ then sends forth His angels to gather His elect, the resurrected and changed, unto himself (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17; 2Thes 2:1). Christ then escorts us to the Father's house to stand before the throne (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17). Later the same day after a half hour of silence in Heaven God begins to pour out His wrath with the first trumpet judgement (Rev 8). All of this takes place at an undisclosed time in the second half of the seventieth week. The unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel being over the remainder of the week will be characterized by the fierce wrath of God falling upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Hallelujah

Jesus spoke of a time called 'the beginning of sorrows'. No doubt this refers to the time period at the end of the age before the A of D. There is little doubt the 'beginning of sorrows' corresponds to the first half of the last week as foretold by Daniel. Up to the point of the A of D in Matt 24:15 no mention of a gathering of any kind. In fact the opposite is true, "9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." But there is a great promise given to us by Jesus, " 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.". There would be no 'enduring to the end' if the gathering came before Matt 24:13. The author and finisher of our faith had the opportunity to speak to a pretrib gathering at the moment the question was raised, "What will the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" But Jesus did not and went on to give the outline of the last days. 8 All these...the beginning of sorrows. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, 21...then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days... 30...then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. You say this is Israel only but a few things do not fit for Israel. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 11 And many FALSE prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world The Jewish people do not fit the above, they do not believe Jesus is the Christ of God. They do not preach the Gospel and are not hated of all nations because of Jesus. This only fits the Body of Christ, the church. The first act is the rise of the beast and the beginning of sorrows, not a pretrib rapture.

Revelation 21:9-11 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God This city has foundations named for the apostles and gates named for the 12 tribes of Israel. I think, based on these verses that the bride will include all those saved from Adam to the end of the world, Jew and gentile alike. I think the occupants of the city are in view here and not the city itself. Since Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, I believe that all those saved must look to Him, whether looking forward to Him like the Old Testament believers did or looking back to the cross like we did.

Was looking twice. Did not register a hit. Checking to see if this works. In Christ Montana Marv

The bereans, whom paul praised in the new testament, compared his words to scripture. Not biblical doctrine. Folks are getting off track and posting opinions instead of scripture to support their views. Its time to get back to the only words that matter -- HIS words.

Sorry to hear that Saved. One. by. Grace; Parents should leave equally to their children, no matter what. I hope that,that does not worsen your depression, God certainly can help you with that through the application of forgiveness) but I understand how it can get to a person. That's why parents should be equal and fair to their children, leaving siblings an equal inheritance so to not bring on animosity after the parents are gone. The man who married your sister and told you that, sounds like a cad to have told you that he married her for her inheritance. At least you have a christian wife, where you both can uphold the Lord to everything that occurs in your lives and can make a family life for yourself and your wife,(you and her, together make a family) and keep a distance from toxic relatives. Praying for them and their salvation is one thing, but placing yourself to get abused is another. Best to keep a distance from toxic people and live your life in peace with the Lord. Praise God, you got the best inheritance ever. Nothing comes close to having received Gods free Gift of Mercy and Grace. Nothing compares to the that. You have been so blessed. Steady as goes In Christ Jesus Always

Is 2 Thessalonians 2 not part of the Rapture? If so there are several conditions that have to happen first before a rapture. Has the man of sin been revealed yet? 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

All too easy to see, at least in the posts made by “others”!

If I am a false prophet then scripture is false as well. Since scripture is truth and the exemplar of rational experience, what I say in this matter is not false. I read and repeat. I don't create. I get that you don't like it. The reality is a tough one. I don't like it either. No sentient, rational creature wants to experience the coming trials. But the Lord said it would happen and has promised to keep watch over those that trust in Him, if we keep the word of His patient enduring. Please come out of this and repent and trust in God and His promises.

The Audience of Hebrews http://graceambassadors.com/books/hebrews/hebrews-audience By Justin Johnson Determining the audience is an important task for dispensational Bible study. The book of Hebrews hosts so large a controversy over the author that the audience is often overlooked. Just as important as the author in determining application is the audience. Jesus called this believing audience his “little flock” (Luke 12:32). This little flock was the Jewish church at Pentecost, and after the scattering became the audience of the book of Hebrews. It is commonly thought that Hebrews is written to people in the mystery church, the new creature, the Body of Christ, but that would be wrong. It is time to set the record straight. As we go through Hebrews verse by verse on Tuesday nights, we are collecting clues to define the audience. What we find is overwhelming evidence Hebrews is written to the believing remnant of Israel, the Hebrew church of the Twelve apostles. Here are some clues: 1.2 – “in these last days” – This puts the audience in the dispensational context of the prophetic last days spoken about in Acts 2:17. 1:2 – “spoken unto us by his Son” – Jesus came to Israel as a minister of the circumcision promises, and not to Gentiles with the mystery (Matt 15:24; John 1:10-11). 1:4 – “better than the angels” – That the author is comparing angels to Christ indicates a Hebrew audience in a dispensation where angels had a role (John 1:51; John 5:4; John 20:12). Paul instructs the church to avoid angels with a message today (Gal 1:8). 1:14 – “shall be heirs of salvation” – The future promise of salvation describes Israel who alone God made a promise and covenant of salvation. 2:3 – “how shall we escape” – Certain punishment would come if they let slip the things they have heard about Christ. The church today is at peace with God, and Christ remains faithful even if we do not (2 Tim 2:13). 2:3 – “which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord” – The Lord’s earthly ministry was to Israel in accordance with the message of salvation proclaimed by the prophets through the law, covenants, and kingdom. 2:3 – “unto us by them that heard him” – This speaks to those who heard the Lord in his earthly ministry. This excludes anyone in the church the Body of Christ which did not begin at Pentecost. 2:4 – “with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles” – See previous comment referring to the Pentecostal believers, not the church today. 2:5 – “world to come, whereof we speak” – The content of the book concerns the prophesied world to come to earth which was promised to Israel not angels. 2:9 – “but we see Jesus” – Peter testifies to seeing Jesus crowned with glory and honour also in 2 Pet 1:16-18 referring to the transfiguration in Matthew 17. 2:10 – “many sons” – Reminds us of Christ declaring that he would give his life a ‘ransom for many”, in reference to the little flock. Whereas in 1 Tim 2:6, according to the mystery, he gave his life a “ransom for all.” 2:11 – “both he that sanctieth and they who are sanctied” – The only sanctified people that existed when Christ was in the flesh was the nation Israel 2:11-12 – “call them brethren” – Those who do the will of God according to his earthly prophetic ministry he called brethren (Matt 12:50; John 20:17; Ps 22:22). 2:13 – “the children which God hath given me” – This is a reference to Isaiah speaking about those who were for signs to Israel, and remotely to John 17:6 referring to the disciples during his earthly ministry. 2:16 – “seed of Abraham” – Which would have had import to those concerned with the seedline. 2:17 – “to be made like unto his brethren” – Who were of the seed of Abraham (Heb 2:16). 3:1 – “High Priest of our profession” – Israel had priests. A high priests implies lower priests. There is no priest in the Body of Christ according to the mystery. 3:6 – “as a son over his own house” – Moses built a house; but the house belonged to Jesus as the son. This connects Jesus ministry in Hebrews to that of Israel. 3:6 – “whose house are we” – The author and audience are included in the house that Peter describes in 1 Pet 2:5, which is Israel (1 Pet 2:9). 3:7 – “if we hold fast the confidence… unto the end” – There are many conditional statements in Hebrews that speak about this sort of endurance required of Israel, because their covenant had not yet been fulfilled (Heb 3:11; 3:12; 3:13; 3:14; 3:19). Members of the church today are presently complete in Christ, and are not waiting for grace or salvation to come in the end, since they have it now. 3:8 – “as in the provocation, in the day of temptation” – The audience is the same people that went through the provocation and temptation in the wilderness. The audience is covenant Israel being tried in a wilderness before the enter the promised kingdom. 3:12 – “in departing from the living God” – The audience can choose to depart from God. 3:14 – “partakers… if we hold the beginning of our confidence” – Their partaking of Christ is conditioned on their holding fast. 4:1 – “a promise being left us” – The audience are not strangers from the covenants of promise (Eph 2:12). 4:1 – “should seem to come short of it” – The audience can after having the promise, come short of receiving it. Today, members of the church do not receive any promise until they are first sealed and saved (Eph 1:13). 4:2 – “unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them” – The gospel this audience had heard was the same as what was told to Israel in the wilderness. Namely, the good news of the promised land being nigh: the gospel of the kingdom. 4:11 – “let us labour … to enter into that rest” – The audience of Hebrews is required to labour to the end, or lose their place in the promised kingdom rest. And this after only four chapters of verse by verse study! The History of Hebrews Jesus commissioned the twelve apostles to begin their kingdom ministry in Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). From there they would minister to Judaea, then Samaria, and finally the Gentiles (Acts 1:8). Their message of the King and the kingdom never got past Jerusalem. The rulers of Israel rejected Christ and his followers by murdering Spirit-filled Stephen (Acts 7:59). Consequently, the believing remnant in Jerusalem was scattered (Acts 8:1), and it became evident that the kingdom they were proclaiming had not yet come. Since Jerusalem rejected and separated them from their holy city, temple, and priests, the Spirit filled remnant of Israel needed encouragement that their promises were still sure. The book of Hebrews provides that encouragement by explaining the better things by faith for the remnant. Jesus was Christ according to prophecy and was the assurance of their promises being fulfilled if they endured unto the end. Our relationship to the doctrinal content in Hebrews as members of the mystery Body of Christ is that of spectator not participant. This is a right division that will cure many confusions that are caused by the covenant content of the book.

As to the question, there seems to me to be a premise set forth in it that is simply not so. The premise that God's action needs squaring with a person's desire that all be fair and to think it cruel of Him to do what He may do if the person thinks it cruel or unfair. Who is it that judges God? I sooner think as Job indicated he thought when responding to his wife- ..." Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”.... Does the creator answer to the created? Plus; Do I really want what is fair from God? I sure hope I am not that unwise as to demand what is fair, for I have been given unmerited mery and grace, full payment of the price of my own sins against God by the atonement paid in blood By God the Son. God has reconciled what is just with what is merciful. So nope, I sure don't want fair! I will be in irreversible eternal trouble to my doom if fair is to be the standard by which God acts. I will bow before Jesus in thanks that He is not fair, but instead is awesome in His sacrifice and His merciful duty to His Father. I want to be used in anyway my maker desires to use me. Whatever way, whenever, but please no fairness, I could not survive what is fair, what I deserve.

Amen. Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Lets look at each of these verses which you mistakenly believe provide support for a pre-trib rapture of the church. Revelation 3:10 If you identify who is being tested in the hour of temptation you will see that it must be the period of God's wrath focused upon the earth dwellers. This is the day of the Lord not the great tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 We are waiting for our gathering unto Him which comes between the great tribulation (wrath of Satan) and the day of the Lord (the wrath of God). 1 Thessalonians 5:9 The wrath that we are not appointed unto is that which comes suddenly on the day of the Lord. This is seen in context in verses 2 and 3. Romans 5:9 The wrath here is that which is experienced by those who reject Christ, it involves eternal conscious torment. Ephesians 5:6 The wrath of God upon unbelievers. Colossians 3:4 At Christ's appearing we will appear with Him. We sure will, that's when we are gathered to Him by the angels. Have you ever considered that pretribulationism is the only eschatological model that has believers experiencing the wrath of God. (Even the post-tribbers believe that God keeps the believer through or in His wrath). Yes I know that you consider these believers "tribulation saints" and since you don't consider yourself part of them therefore it's OK with you that those saints suffer the wrath of God. That is so inconsistent with how God has dealt with His own. Noah was safe in the ark before God's judgement fell upon the earth dwellers in his day. Even Lot was taken out of Sodom before the fire and brimstone destroyed the cities of the plane. On the other hand the Lord did nothing to intervene when Nero was feeding our brethren to the lions and using them to light his gardens. The Lord also did not intervene to prevent the martyrdom of millions of believers over the past hundred years. The Scriptures are very clear, He removes His own before His wrath is poured out, but He allows us the honor of suffering persecution for His name sake so that we may be glorified with Him. Hallelujah

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, So...414, you are one to speak. I haven't seen more circular reasoning, eisegesis, and hermeneutical gymnastics than I've seen on this forum from pre-tribbers like your self. Pretribulationism is wrong because: (if one or two of these doesn't apply to your flavor of pretribulationism, just take the ones that do, there are plenty to go around) It fails to distinguish between the great tribulation and the day of the Lord. It teaches 3 comings (parousia) of Christ. It attributes the warnings of Christ to the elect to the unbelieving Jews. It manufactures a whole new resurrection of the dead in Christ. It says God's wrath begins in the beginning of the week. It says the apostasia is not the falling away but the rapture (wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction) It misidentifies the activities of Christ in the end of the week (Rev 19) with His arrival. It teaches that the glorious appearing of Christ to gather His own unto Himself will be secret. It teaches that Christ could come at any moment, when Jesus and Paul both said different. It teaches that the revelation of the Beast is being withheld by the Holy Spirit. It teaches that the seals are part of God's wrath. It is new and therefore untrue. All the "church fathers" who wrote upon the subject expected the church to see the antichrist and experience persecution at his hand. It is essentially a tenant of the modern prosperity gospel, which teaches glory before suffering. It teaches that Christ's coming will be without sign, when the Prophets, Christ and the Apostles all speak of them. It teaches that the rapture will come as a thief upon the believer. Out of time, this will have to do for now. Hallelujah

I have not read every post since I came in late but I see not need for Prophets to day since our prophetic end is already wrote. If this has already been expressed disregard.

Thanks or posting this song ,it's one of my favorites

I'm afraid you got no choice, Pre tribs doctrine is the manipulation of scripture of the living saints to be raptured amongst the dead in Christ. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection Even grammatically you can not manipulate first the dead in Christ will rise with this statement first resurrection first the dead in christ/first ressurection. They are one and the same phrases Pretrib is a false doctrine of the living saints to be raptured inbetween the dead in Christ.

If the Lord had put that extra resurrection in the Bible we wouldn't be having this debate, but since it's the pre-trib crowd that pencils the extra resurrection in just to make their doctrine sound like it has merit. I have to file that under suspect. I say the Bible has it right.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, shiloh357, what you read was, I believe, the frustration that comes from countless instances of abuse that is suffered by those who dare to point out the fallacious nature of pretribulationism. I was once a pretribber who ridiculed those who "were too stupid to see that we are not appointed unto wrath". Only a couple years ago I realized by God's mercy that I was the stupid and deceived one. It was I who had misunderstood a number of texts which left me with an unsupportable and false understanding of eschatology. However, I was not alone in this error. For the last 150 years this teaching has gained steam and grown to almost saturate the evangelical churches of the west. It is a difficult road to walk, when those you are trying to help and deliver from darkness treat you as if you had denied the deity of Christ or His substitutionary atonement. The pan-tribulationists think, "what is the big deal". They say it will all pan out in the end. I don't see it that way. Jesus gave us many warnings concerning this coming great persecution. The result of this period of persecution will be unprecedented apostasy. Jesus said: Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. This is the falling away (apostasia) that Paul said would happen before the day of Christ (Lord) comes. The combination of unparalleled persecution (countless martyrs) and lying signs and wonders will bring about such a great departure from the faith that Jesus says: "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Luk 18:7-8) The churches of the west are filled with those whose faith has never been tested. Many of them will be offended when tribulation comes. Jesus says that is what happens when the Word is received gladly by those whose hearts are like the stony ground. "But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." (Mat 13:20-21) Many you know, even family who profess Christ today, will be tested one day. Will they own Christ in the face of death? Jesus says that if we deny Him, He will deny us. We need to prepare the professing church to be overcomers. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. I pray you take this precious truth, and acknowledge it as the Words of our Lord. All praise, honour and glory be unto the Lamb.

Are you 12? And here I thought I was talking to an adult. *sigh* Have a great life, and fare well in the coming tribulation.

I refuse to be found guilty of giving people a false hope, even if it means that they might not like me. God knows my motive. You don't. And your emotional reaction and psychological projection is just that. What's coming doesn't give half a hoot about favorable spin and neither should you. The time to prepare is now.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, It is interesting how many have adopted the spirit of this age and claim that they are victims, only to use that status as a safe platform from which they bully others with whom they disagree. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

God did choose to do that. He said so. The sower of seeds sowed upon all soil. He did not choose just the good soil. All soil had opportunity. Whosoever will. The seed, (the word), is how the Father reveals the Son. One tiny seed I received from a sower/preacher fell upon ready soil, and grew, as more word was received (watered, fed, nourished) That seed came alive within, and I was born. Again. I don't know why I thought differently, and others not. The soil? I do know the word caused me to change the way I had been thinking, (repented) and I slowly changed my desires. I sought out more 'word', and I changed. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word. In the beginning was the word, and the word WAS GOD........... For God so loved the world, that whosoever.......... Kinda foolish, discussing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mike, you are absolutely right to recognize that the present affliction that the church is suffering will continue until it is intensified to an unprecedented level in the first portion of the last half of the seventieth week. We know this unprecedented persecution by three different names: Jesus called it "great tribulation"(Matt 24:21), Daniel called it "a time of trouble"(Dan 12:1), and Jeremiah called it "Jacob's trouble"(Jer 30:7). Each are said to be unprecedented in the context where they are found. The focus of great tribulation Those being persecuted in this unprecedented persecution are Israel and the church. Jesus makes this truth clear in Matt 24:9 where He says that those that will be hated and violently persecuted experience such for His names sake. The church is the elect that Jesus refers to three times in Matt 24. There are many references to the persecution of those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ in the eschatological portion of John's Revelation. In Rev 12 it is said that Israel and believers are the focus of the wrath of the dragon (Satan). After the sixth seal is opened and Christ returns for His own, an innumerable multitude of gentile believers are seen, before the throne of God, having come out of great tribulation (Rev 7:9-17). The persecution comes from Satan through the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers Daniel revealed to us that the antichrist would make war with the saints and would prevail against them. John saw the same thing and added that they will kill those unwilling to receive the mark or worship the Beast. We see the same thing being spoken of at the end of Rev 12. Those resurrected in the first resurrection are said to have suffered at the hand of the Beast (Rev 20:4-6). The period of unprecedented persecution is cut short to save some of the elect alive Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The unprecedented persecution will not continue for the full 42 months that the Beast continues. At some point after the beast is revealed and the apostacy of "professors" takes place, Christ will appear in the clouds of heaven, in His glory, with the mighty and holy angels, for every eye to see. He will then resurrect the dead in Christ, change the surviving believers, and catch us both up to be with Him in the clouds. He then escorts us to the Fathers house to stand before the throne. Later that very same day after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven, His wrath begins to be poured out with the first of the trumpet judgements. Persecution of the church and Israel will continue and later become unprecedented, until Jesus comes, at which time we shall have rest, and our persecutors shall be tribulated 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. The day of our rescue is the day that God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. To the unbelievers, who persecute the saints, it will be business as usual, right up until God's wrath falls suddenly upon them, the very same day as our rapture. When the beast worshipers, having slain most of the believers, began to say peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. Notice that this is the context of the wrath that we, the church, are not appointed unto. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Notice that verses ten and eleven conclude the subject of Christ's return that Paul began to speak of back in chapter 4 verse 13. 1Thes 5:10 ties it all together. Christ's arrival at His coming is the day of our resurrection/rapture (when our tribulation ends) and the day of His wrath poured out upon the Beast worshiping, earth dwellers (when their tribulation begins). Mike, you are absolutely right, there are two future periods of unprecedented tribulation. The first falls upon the church and Israel (which is not the wrath of God), the second falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers (which is the wrath of God). All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ or Lord.

I looked and looked but couldn't find where it says that the Holy Spirit holds back evil from manifesting. Could you please quote it and highlight the relevant verses that state what you claim it states? In fact, I couldn't even find where it even talks about the Holy Spirit. Please highlight the words "Holy Spirit" in red for me so I don't miss it.

Shalom George. You stated that the soul of believer returns to the Lord, this is true, but not only of believer but of every man and woman on Earth, because our soul is the property of the Lord and all souls belong only to GOD, very much like everything else on this Earth. Ecclesiastes 12. 7 7.*and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath (breath of life, spirit, soul, of human being) returns to GOD Who gave it. Ezekiel 18.4 4."Know that all lives are Mine, the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is Mine..." In reply to the second part of your post I would like to point out that some people used very judgmental, inappropriate and badly chosen words concerning some statement and passages of the Bible without understanding them fully. Does be prophet Elisha also was very cruel when he resurrected from the dead the child of Shunammite woman? 2Kings 4.32-37. Or may be Jesus Christ also was very cruel when He resurrected from the dead so many people? Or may Apostles of Christ also were cruel when they resurrected many dead? Matthew 10.8 Commandments of Jesus to His disciples. 8."Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. You received without payment, give without payment." Elisha, Jesus Christ, and Peter, and many others showed to us the power of the Lord over the physical death, in order that people would believe in the power of their GOD, and many did, and it change the life of many people for the better and turned them to their GOD, and only GOD. And even during crucifixion of Jesus the graves were open and the dead were came and prophesied in Jerusalem! Do you know how many people saw it and became permanent and dedicated believers in Christ? If GOD chose such way to convince people of His power over the death, who then have the right to criticize the Lord and call such action as cruel? Above all, will be even bigger resurrection of the dead in the future on the universal scale. Isaiah 26.19 19.Your dead shall live, their corpses shall rise (Ezekiel 37.1-14). O dwellers in the dust (Genesis 3.19) (Psalm 103.14) (Ecclesiast 3.20, 12.7), awake and sing for joy! Your dew is a radiant dew, and the Earth will give birth to those long dead (Ezekiel 37.1-14) (Daniel 12.2) (Hosea 13.14) (Ephesians 5.14). (NRSV) 19.Your dead will live, their corpses will rise (Ezekiel 37.1-14), you who lie in the dust (Genesis 3.19) (Psalm 103.14) (Ecclesiast 3.20, 12.7) awake and shout for joy, your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the Earth will give birth to the departed spirits (Ezekiel 37.1-14) (Daniel 12.2) (Hosea 13.14) (Ephesians 5.14). (KSB Ezekiel 37.12-13 12.Therefore, prophesy and say to them. 'Thus says the Lord GOD. I am going to open your graves and bring you up from your graves. O My people (see "People of GOD"), and I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13.And you shall know that I am the Lord when I open your graves and bring you up from graves, O My people. Daniel 12.2 2.Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to Everlasting Life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. John 5.21.25.28-29 21."Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever He wishes. 25.Very truly I tell you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of GOD, and those who hear will live. 28.Do not be astonished at this, the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice, 29.and will come out those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.” Notice that the end of the passage in Daniel 12.1 is identical to the end of the passage in John 5.29. There are many other similar statements indicating that resurrection will occur on the global scale. It is also support the fact that we from the very beginning have being created as immortal human beings in physical flesh, but lose our immortality due to disobedience to GOD. This means that the history of human kind must make its complete circle and we have to receive our immortality back, according to the passages above. In general, Bible depicts only two types of resurrections, one resurrection is temporary and a person would die again, the second resurrection is permanent and leading to eternal life in soul and in flesh. So I hope I square out for you the point of the resurrection and answered your question. Alex.

One thing this thread has revealed is that the pre-trib doctrine can be twisted into anything it needs to be to tickle ears.

Is there a scripture that supports that? I can list where he convicts of sin, reveals truth, comforts, helps, but where does it say that he holds back evil from manifesting?

Is 1 corintians 15 not the rapture? 51 says that All shall be changed. It does not leave anyone out. 1 corintiahns 15:51-52 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Hi Shiloh, But where is this documented in scripture?

Apologies for chiming in but that's precisely the issue. There is no scriptural definition of "church age." It's a made up term. It's used largely as a replacement for or a segment of the "new covenant" because when you make stuff up, you can make it mean anything you want.

Losing Salvation in Hebrews http://graceambassadors.com/salvation/losing-salvation-in-hebrews By Justin Johnson Losing salvation is a serious controversy in Christianity. After becoming a Christian can failure and sin lead to God’s rejection or is salvation secure apart from performance? Both sides of the debate have clear Bible verses to support their position. Salvation security teachers claim the verses that speak of God’s grace and unfailing promises. Salvation losers claim verses about God’s judgment, and conditions to endure, bear fruit, keep, and work to receive those promises. Which verses are right? The answer for the dispensational Bible believer is all of them… to whom they were written. The Dispensational Answer This confusion, like many others, arises from a failure to understand the Bible dispensationally. Dispensational Bible study employs context, timing, and audience to reconcile verses that otherwise, taken literally, are at odds with each other. It is no surprise, then, that this controversy can be resolved by recognizing the dispensational difference between Israel and the church. More specifically, Paul’s epistles to the church must be rightly divided from the Hebrew epistles to Israel. If Paul’s epistles are where people learn about salvation by grace complete in Christ, then Hebrews is where people go to “lose” it. Salvation Now Paul’s epistles alone contain the doctrine of Jesus Christ according to the mystery: the doctrine, position, and pattern of the church today. Paul’s epistles also contain the strongest statements of present salvation by grace without works, conditions, or unfulfilled promises. According to the mystery salvation is found in the present dispensation of grace complete in Christ. Salvation in the End The Hebrew epistles contain the doctrine concerning the remnant of Israel going through persecution while waiting for their promised kingdom come. The Hebrew epistles also contain the strongest statements of future salvation dependent upon endurance, works, and performance unto the end. The reason it sounds as if the Hebrews can lose salvation is that, for them, salvation is found in the future fulfillment of covenant promises. They have not yet received their promised salvation, and so until then, they can lose their future claim on it. Of the epistles written to remnant Israel the book of Hebrews has the most warnings about failing to receive what they were promised. Below is an incomplete list of such warnings. Heb 1:14 – Angels ministered to Israel. Israel shall be heirs salvation. Israel’s salvation is yet future. Heb 2:1-3 – Hebrews exhorted to give heed, lest at any time they should let them slip, receive judgment, and neglect salvation. Heb 2:8 – Hebrews were not yet seeing the promised kingdom, they had to wait. Heb 3:6 – For Israel to be the house of Christ requires holding fast unto the end. Heb 3:7-12 – Hebrews could depart from the living God and not enter into rest. Heb 3:14-19 – Hebrews could be partakers of Christ if they hold fast unto the end. Heb 4:1 – Hebrews should fear lest they come short of the promise of rest. Heb 4:11 – Hebrews were told to labour to enter into that rest. Heb 4:16 – The believing remnant still needed more grace in time of need (compare to 2 Cor 12:9). Heb 6:4-6 – It is impossible for enlightened Hebrews to be renewed after falling away. Heb 6:7-8 – If they do not bear fruit then they are rejected, cursed, and burned. Heb 6:10-12 – Their assurance was in faith and patience unto the end. Heb 6:14-15 – Hebrews quotes Gen 22 which is what James uses to prove the necessity of works. Heb 9:28 – Salvation comes to Hebrews when Christ appears the second time. Heb 10:24-29 – Do good because there is no more sacrifice for sins but judgment. Heb 10:36 – Hebrews receive the promise after patiently doing the will of God. Heb 10:38-39 – Drawing back is rejection, moving forward is salvation. Heb 11:13 – The Hebrew example are those who died in faith not yet receiving promises. Heb 12:11-14 – Without chastening and holiness no man shall see the Lord. Heb 12:15-17 – A warning against failing the grace of God, selling their birthright, and being rejected. Heb 12:25 – There is no escaping the wrath of him who speaks from heaven. Ignoring the dispensational context of Hebrews causes salvation confusion. Hebrews is where people go to lose their present possession of salvation and reject the dispensation of the grace of God for today. Hebrews must be rightly divided from Paul’s epistles to the Body of Christ if men are going to clearly see Christ according to the mystery (Eph 3:9).

Since that term does not appear anywhere I scripture, nor the concept it cannot be applied to any group in all of history. It's made up by the devil himself and plays on the fear of the masses while leading you away from the truth.

Biblical Christianity is not a relic-based belief. The shroud is interesting, but ultimately irrelevant (whether legitimate or not).

Faith in What? http://graceambassadors.com/salvation/faith-in-what By Justin Johnson Sometimes people ask, “is faith enough for salvation?”, or, “do you have faith?” …Faith in what? There is nothing special about faith in itself. Every thinking man is a man of faith, but faith in what? Every false religion has men of faith, but faith in what? Every Bible ignorant churchgoer says they are people of faith, but faith in what? It is the object of our faith that makes a weak faith or strong faith. Faith not based in reality is powerless. Faith in the wrong thing is unacceptable. Faith without content is not faith at all, but ignorance. Merely having faith is pointless, unless it is faith in the right thing. The right thing is always what God provides as the object of faith. The Justifier of the Ungodly “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” – Romans 4:5 Most every religion teaches that to be counted righteous before God, we must prove ourselves righteous. The faith of every religious man is in vain if they believe that ungodly men cannot be justified before God. Of course, ungodliness is wrong and is rightly condemned by God and man, but God has provided a means to justify ungodly people without their good works. If your faith squirms at this admission then your faith is entirely unacceptable to God, and you have no faith in the gospel that saves. Evaluate the content of your faith, you may find it is faith in yourself and your own godliness, instead of God’s provision. God can justify the ungodly who place their faith in the blood of Christ as paying for their sins. Faith in the Death and Resurrection “But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.” – Rom 4:24-25 If your faith does not include the resurrection of Christ on your behalf, which constitutes the finished work of Christ, then your faith is in vain. “And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain;…” – 1 Cor 15:17 However, righteousness can be imputed to you if we believe in God, who delivered Christ for our offences, and raised him up for our justification. Many “people of faith” claim ignorance about how God saves them, or that their faith is found in circumstances, or “every day miracles”. This is not a faith God respects. Faith comes from hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17). Even then, when the Bible says to have faith, we must ask, “faith in what?” Not all men in the Bible had faith in the same thing. Faith in a covenant, the law, the kingdom come, or even the name of the Son of God is not the content of the gospel today. Faith in Christ’s work on your behalf is what has been offered for your belief. It is not faith in any thing that matters, it is faith in the right thing: faith in the gospel for today. Believe the Gospel “By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” – 1 Cor 15:2-4 Without Christ’s death and resurrection Christian faith is blind, impotent to save, foolish, and unacceptable to God. This is why Paul places so much emphasis on the preaching of the cross as the object of your belief. If this doctrinal faith makes you uncomfortable, or conflicts with what you think God should accept, then your faith is not based on the Bible, and is not based in reality. People believe miracles, and can be condemned when they die. People believe in angels, and good deeds, and karma, and will be guilty on judgment day. People have faith in humanity, good will, and charity and will not be saved because they have rejected God’s provision. We are saved by trusting the gospel of our salvation, not by faith in feelings, churches, popes, religious systems, good works, hard work, church going, angels, miracles, or any of the millions of things people of faith believe. The gospel of our salvation is the finished work of Christ on our behalf (Eph1:13). One thing saves. Only one faith is acceptable. Only one faith was taught by Paul as the gospel. That is faith in Christ’s death for our sins, his physical burial, and literal resurrection for our eternal life. Christ’s cross work is what saves. Is your faith in that? Top of the Page Article Index Published: March 16, 2013 Last Modified: February 7, 2018 Related posts: -Do You Believe in Resurrection? -Ignorant Abraham and His Righteousness -When Can Works Justify -What Easter Pageants Fail to Mention -Complete In Christ -How Do I Know I Am Saved? -Is Faith Without Works Dead?

Yes these verses support a rapture... But they do not give any timing.. And they do not say it will be pre-trib.. The only timing given in the Bible about the rapture is that it will happen at the last trump.. 1 Corinthians 15: KJV 50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. {51} Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." The book of Revelations reveal that there will be 7 trumpets and the last one is below.. Revelation 10: 7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

These are the raptured church at the second coming, there is no pre-trib rapture because the resurrection happens at the second coming. If you can show where a pre-trib resurrection of all the dead in Christ happens pre-trib please show me.

The shroud of Turin is a fake. Its a one piece shroud, like a bed sheet. Jesus was wrapped in linin stipes, as in bandages, John 19:40, Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. And Jesus head was wrapped in a separate napkin, John 20:6, Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, John 20:7, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. If the shroud was real, there would be no blood or face imprinted on it as Christs head was wrapped in a separate napkin.

The Bible says there is going to be a great falling away in the end times, but the pre-trib camp says there is going to be a great revival. So which view should we believe, I think we are supposed to believe the Bible.

Jesus already said how we would recognize false prophets. "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?" - Matthew 7:16 Yes, by their fruits! "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." - 1 John 3:7 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me." - John 15:4 If a prophet is true, he will preach and practice the truth. And consequently, they will bear fruits from the truth. "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." - 1 John 2:6 "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7 In the spiritual sense we are all prophets, some are true and others are false... Most are false, and by their fruits we shall know them. "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." - 1 John 1:6 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1 Most false prophets do not know they are false because they walk in darkness. "Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch." - Matthew 15:14 Keep watching, praying and testing the spirits. "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him." - Acts 5:32

There are no prophets, as new revelatory 'thus saith The Lord', today unless you believe in the open canon of The Scriptures... which is blatantly ignoring the seal God had John place upon The Scriptures.

My Website : https://patrickjane3169.wixsite.com/website Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpzjN3dF-_PnAc81SQVjqhg?view_as=subscriber Twitter : https://twitter.com/patrickjane3169 Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007669219364 Google : https://plus.google.com/u/0/113527239869543729835 Hearing, believing and trusting the gospel of our salvation seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promises. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 KJV - Romans 10:17 KJV - Ephesians 1:7 KJV -

My Website : https://patrickjane3169.wixsite.com/website Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpzjN3dF-_PnAc81SQVjqhg?view_as=subscriber Twitter : https://twitter.com/patrickjane3169 Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007669219364 Google : https://plus.google.com/u/0/113527239869543729835 Hearing, believing and trusting the gospel of our salvation seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promises. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 KJV - Romans 10:17 KJV - Ephesians 1:7 KJV -

My Website : https://patrickjane3169.wixsite.com/website Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpzjN3dF-_PnAc81SQVjqhg?view_as=subscriber Twitter : https://twitter.com/patrickjane3169 Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007669219364 Google : https://plus.google.com/u/0/113527239869543729835 Hearing, believing and trusting the gospel of our salvation seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promises. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 KJV - Romans 10:17 KJV - Ephesians 1:7 KJV -

My Website : https://patrickjane3169.wixsite.com/website Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpzjN3dF-_PnAc81SQVjqhg?view_as=subscriber Twitter : https://twitter.com/patrickjane3169 Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007669219364 Google : https://plus.google.com/u/0/113527239869543729835 Hearing, believing and trusting the gospel of our salvation seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promises. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 KJV - Romans 10:17 KJV - Ephesians 1:7 KJV -

Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them." Now who do you suppose gave the angels the trumps? You said it was the trump of an angel; Did the angel give the trump to himself? No, the trumps were given to them by our Father. All are the trumpets of our Father. They are the same trumps....obviously.

Hi n2, You know, I think it's mostly based on the fact some do not want the 7th to be the last trump. I know of no group of trumps in scripture that are listed as sounded in order except for the 7 trumps in Revelation. Even if there were another set of numbered trumps sounded in order from first to last, those trumps are not associated with the end of the age, only the 7 we see in Rev. The last trump passages written by Paul are also associated with the end of the age. There is no other proper conclusion than that of the 'last trump' being equal to the 7th trump. Some have to have a different 'last trump' to justify personal and/or corporate dogma. That's all. Relating the festival of trumpets from Leviticus, and the Talmudic tradition of a 'last trump', is even weaker evidence. There is no first or last trump in Lev 23:24. “Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of sabbath rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts." It's just a day of rest signified by the sounding of trumpets. I also find looking to the past in this case in regards to the future to be an unworthy endeavor. How can the 7th trump and the last trump not be the same? Only in the imagination, my friend.

Daniel, I'm asking you nicely to explain it. You seem unwilling to explain scripture to me....Im really happy to be wrong....I've got no issues with being wrong. However I don't accept statements, things need to be explained...lets be honest you not doing that.

Okay. So we have a guy that thinks Jesus is here, when Acts 1 says he ascended. Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then we have a guy who thinks Jesus is going to need some time to get His 1,000 year reign in order when Revelation says He'll rule with a rod of iron. Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. We also have a guy who insists over and over that Matthew 24 is not for the church and conjures an 8th trumpet based solely on that same assertion along with accusations of falsehood to any that dare ask why. Then we fight over who is alive during the 1,000 year reign. Is it spirit bodies, flesh and bone or flesh and blood, and don't forget the folks who survive the 7 years. But we also had some very clear explanations from some people who did their best to prove their positions. I say bravo to those who gave their reasons! Just for the record, I still think the last trump is the seventh trumpet, but the best of you gave me a lot to think about. Thank you.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. The disciples are not national Israel. And even if you say they are, in Mark Jesus said "I say unto all".