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Mary did not give birth either spiritually or physically to the eternal pre-existing Godhead. She gave birth to the physical Jesus, physically.....where it was written that God prepared a body for Him. The problem is that Catholicism makes far too much out of the human vessel called Mary.......unfortunately crossing the line into full-blown idolatry. She herself as a faithful disciple of Christ, if she were here today, would tell them to stop worshiping and praying to her, just as holy angels in the bible do not permit themselves to be worshiped. The carnal nature has a tendency to want to build a shrine around and make an idol out of everything pertaining to God.....building their own man-made cisterns that can't hold water (the Holy Spirit). It's like Peter when he was still in the flesh and immature wanted to build tabernacles for Jesus, Moses and Elijah on the mount. Fortunately Jesus did not permit him to, otherwise they would have likewise become idols and a source of "polluted water" to the people. 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Jer 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

“It is the beholding of His face in the radiance of His glory that begins to transform your soul into His image, begins to transfigure you from the inside out. It is beholding His face in His Word and letting His Word become alive and living in you… Any who will can have as deep a walk with Him as you want. How can I make you want it? How can I grab your hearts? How can I shake the dust of the world off your eyes? How can I make you want His glory enough that you will pay any price to abide deep in the crevice of His glory? How? What words can I use to describe to you the beauty, the unfathomable beauty of His glory, the preciousness of His heart, to walk with Him and talk with Him and see Him? To be with Him in heaven, to behold His majesty!… The hunger grows as you plead before His throne to know Him in His Word. You spend time in prayer and you begin to worship Him and adore Him, not because you are being moved to, but because the discipline is required to open the door. And then finally, the desire and the yearning begins to grow as you obey and give yourself to the practice and the discipline of the Word and of prayer and of worship. The hunger begins to grow, the thirst begins to grow. and you cry out to Him more and more. You increase your Word time and prayer time because your hunger is growing. You are not satisfied any more with a just little—you have to have more until the day comes that nothing but His company matters… The Lord wants to reveal His glory, but there is a price. He wants to take you into His heart and reveal His heart. But listen to me, He will not reveal that heart to anyone who is not proven worthy to touch it. He will not do it. You have to prove your worth by your hunger, your passion, your obedience and as you begin to behold His glory. I love the song that used to be so popular in the states. I do not know if you have ever heard it, but the chorus goes like this, “Turn your eyes upon Jesus. Look full in His wonderful face. And the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace.” The more you behold Him, the more the world loses its pull upon your soul. The more you behold His glory and His grace, the world becomes dim, strangely dim. The hunger for more becomes insatiable… He is not withholding Himself from you, Church. There are veils to keep you blinded to Him. They are your veils. Come into the sanctuary of His love. Seek Him like a jealous lover until you see Him. Be clean from your sin until you behold Him. Live in His Word until His Word begins to live in you and He will own you. Come and knock on the door of His heart, Just like our pastor said, “Make me more worthy of entering. Do not deny me!” Be like Rachel who cried out, “Give me a child lest I die!” Give me your heart God, lest I die! Open the door of your heart lest I die! And if you will not be denied He will not deny you. Do you want to know Him? Then tell Him.” - Sis. Nita

If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold. Genesis 4:24

Like the title says, I was an atheist previously. For years, in fact. I know a lot of Christians are born and raised that way, and I want to speak personally to some of the disconnect between those believers who were born and raised as such and the people they're usually the most frustrated they can't reach: atheists. I don't want this to be a super-long read. The following are a few reasons why (many) of you aren't reaching people like me--people who are open to different opinions but are largely disgusted at how their being presented. Do you catch yourself doing any of these? I ask you in that case to pause, be mindful of it, and humbly consider this list of ineffective behaviors: Stating your interpretation of the Bible as gospel truth--especially concerning grey areas. Many atheists and agnostics are far more informed about the Bible than you might expect. They will question your interpretation. Be honest about how you came to adopt the interpretations you did. Even if they disagree with you, you'll both still walk away with mutual respect, and that's super important if you ever plan to follow up with them in any capacity whatsoever. Speaking in any kind of accusatory manner. You may be right that their behavior is sinful, but what's the point in rubbing that in their face when they don't yet believe in a holy God? You've given them no reason yet to believe sin is even wrong. Speaking in any way, of any thing, that is motivated by your own self-righteousness. Be extremely honest with yourself about this. If you think you've achieved "humble", then that's probably a sign to be more humble. Failing to give people the benefit of the doubt when they ask questions or pose doubts. Give them the benefit of the doubt that they're *not* just trying to be annoying/contradict you/win an argument/attack you. If you assume everyone has bad motives, you'll start to believe this assumption even when it's not true, and furthermore, you'll lose the chance to win with kindness. Force feeding people gospel information when they've made it clear they're not interested. Talk to someone who IS interested. Jesus never forced his message on anyone and in fact issued warnings to those who would choose to follow him. Assuming your biblical interpretation is essential doctrine, or speaking to someone as if it is. Treating the desire to prove using logic as some sort of horrible heresy. There are plenty of logical arguments for God. If you don't know any, point them to Ravi Zacharias or John Lennox videos and debates on Youtube (or whomever else you find influential). The attitude that logic must be abandoned in order to follow God is not only ridiculous but incredibly off-putting to an intelligent person. Accusing them of holding a position they don't, just because they question yours. Example: "You believe in abortions? Then you must be a new age feminazi!" Losing your patience for any reason, but especially because of: the content of someone's response, someone's emotions, someone's culture, someone just not matching your expectations I hope this helps. I'd also be happy to discuss what it's like actually BEING an atheist approached by Christians, what I found annoying, and what I found respectful and effective. I'm putting this out there because it's been my observation that the way Christians usually approach atheists is horrible and not at all respectful and effective...and I'd like to help change that. That's all.

A very misunderstood passage. Jesus harkens back to a psalm which refers to judges and magistrates, who were called gods as when they judged they represented God. Problem was, those judges in that psalm were as ungodly as possible, doing all sorts of injustices. And Jesus likened those whom He called gods in the new testament to those same terrible judges. At no time is the bible saying people are gods.

NOT IN THE SENSE the KENNY COPELAND and new agers use it . THEY EXALT THEMSELVES . OF course GOD has called us gods , but not in the sense they make it out to be . AND ANYONE focusing on that , HAS to have a wee bit of pride already in them . I see myself as a son . Let GOD call us what he wants . I don't focus on being called a god , that is what happened with SATAN . I SHALL BE AS GOD , and look what it did to him .

Oh I see, so anyone who doesn't bow down and worship you or each other is in a state of unbelief. And we should not exult in our crowns or get too attached to them...we are going to lay them at Someone else's feet.

What do you do with the fact that Jerusalem that is above is our mother......heavenly Zion. Mary gave birth to the church figuratively....she represents Israel/Zion (heavenly Zion/Israel of God). Honouring is not nearly the same thing as worshiping. Anyone with any care for souls and having a sense of responsibility would be careful to make a distinction. And we need to understand what honouring means in that context of looking after someone.....widows and the elderly, and supporting elders of the church....keeping in mind that there is no need to "honour" Mary now as she is with the Lord and lacking nothing...she needs no roof over her head, or protection or food to eat or clothes to wear.

They are not ruling with Christ yet, not until the regeneration....and even then their authority is delegated authority not their own, and their thrones not equal to the Son of God's throne since He alone is God. Just like the angels have delegated authority from God....who is the only one we pray to, and then He is the one who bids the angels to do His will, in executing His will when He is answering prayers. Servants of God, sons of God, Bride and helpmeet to the Son.....but not Gods in their own right. NEVER. Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

These are very deceptive things you are implying here. Proud and vain imaginations. Mat 24:3-5 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Mar 13:4-6 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Luk 21:7-8 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. Sons of God and gods are angels....where Jesus said "ye shall be like the angels" at the resurrection/redemption when mortality puts on immortality.....that's all. Once again not to be taken any further than God Himself intends. Jesus Christ is the only such one to be worshiped because He is/was the only such one who was actually God in the flesh, and therefore able to be a forerunner for us. Nowhere, nowhere is it ever implied or taught that man should worship/idolize man, or dead or living saints, or angels.......on the contrary.

That's a great point, but I think you may be establishing a false dilemma. There must be a way of obeying church leaders and submitting to their authority without formal 'church membership', as we know it. This is another reason why I believe home churches would be superior. If local churches did not 'advertise' using property, billboards, websites, etc., there wouldn't be a need for church membership. Here's why: Churches that do not meet in homes are technically open to ANYONE who may be looking for a church. Inevitably, there will be non-believers and liberal christians who enter the church without a formal invitation. On the other hand, a healthy home church would have its members evangelize during the week and new converts would be brought into the fold. It would be extremely unlikely for a pedestrian to ring the doorbell to someone's house on a Sunday morning and invite themselves in, whereas it's easy for anyone to visit 'first baptist church' down the road. This first-century church model weeds out many of the people whom the typical church would have otherwise barred from membership. By no means does this model prevent liberal christians and wolves in sheep's clothing from entering the Church, but it sure is an improvement. In a functioning home church, the congregants would submit to their elders without having to be official 'members', because everyone would be a member. In this scenario, non-members are simply those that do no attend the church. It's that simple, and it's the way God intended it to be.

And after reading it , NOT A LICK of it agrees with praying to the already gone saints . YALL take and twist and invent stuff that is not their . I ask saints who are on earth to pray for me . NOT THE SAME as PRAYING to them THOUGH IS IT . NOPE . I do not seek to the dead nor those asleep for protection . THAT IS VANITY and deadly . I don't pray to angels , I PRAY to the ONE WHO CREATED EVERY THING that is . AKA , GOD . MIGHT better hurry and repent BEFORE ITS TOO LATE FOREVER . I say that out of love for you and with the greatest sense of urgency in me to do so . AND you better cease with the false teachings fast .

I GOT MY HIGH PRIEST and HE ALONE can supply ALL I NEED . YOU MISSED THAT , THAT AINT GOOD either . I RELY SOLEY ON JESUS FOR I KNOW HE IS ABLE TO KEEP ME FROM FALLING , ABLE TO DO IN ME , what I cannot do , ABLE TO SUCCOR ME THROUGH EVERY TRIAL and TEMPTATOIN . MY advice , and I say this not because I think anything OF ME , but my advice , HURRY AND DO THE SAME . I don't pray to angels men or any . THE ONE I PRAY TO CREATED ALL THAT . HURRY NOW and repent , OR risk all you do .

ONWARD INTO THE TRENCHES SISTER . We don't belong to denominations of men . WHO is paul , who is frienduff , who is man . FOR WHOM we belong too WAS BEFORE man ever was . CHRIST THE KING , CHRIST the RISEN SAVOIR , CHRIST the author and finisher of our faith , Christ the LORD o lords and KING o kings . WHERE JESUS has premenice and PRAISE BE TO HIS NAME . NOW HE SAVED us , WE KNEEL to no man , bow to no image , pray to no saint WHERE our intercessor between man and GOD , WHO IS CHRIST , sits on our behalf to make intercession for us , and to give us aide through every trial and temptation . NOW THROW THOSE hands up the LORD . PRAISE TO THE ONLY INTERCESSOR , THE ONLY GREAT HIGH PREIST , THE ONLY SAVOIR , THE ONLY KING THE KINGDOM that is ETERNAL , the BISHOP of our souls , THE AUTHOR of OUR FAITH , THE ONE the ONLY , CHRIST THE KING . LET NO MAN PUT ASUNDER THE ONLY NAME WHEREBY we can be saved . AND BY grace alone , I WILL WARN OUT AGAINST THAT SATANIC DEVIL ROME and her unity and her abominations TILL I AM DEAD and lie stinking in the soil. IT don't matter what it costs me , no matter how hated I am , I LOVE THE LORD and love the people , SO exhort I must warn I must and contend for the true faith I must , and all by the power of HIS grace . AND ROME IS AN ABOMINATION , COME YE OUT OF HER and all HER DAUGHER churches or face the wrath of GOD many will . IT IS TIME TO SERVE GOD by and in CHRIST , BY THE SPIRIT , by which is a man has WILL RENDER HONOR ALL HONOR unto the FATHER of our LORD and savoir CHRIST JESUS THE KING .

EVEN when the people CRIED BLESSED are the PAPS which you sucked . JESUS FLAT OUT SAID < NAY , ITS RATHER those WHO DO the WILL OF GOD . He stopped mary worship RIGHT FAST and pointed ONLY TO THE FATHER . Folks don't read them bibles , THEY SIT UNDER men who lie . bad news for those who do so.

MR LEE DOES AGREE. EDWARD ZACH LEE. commonly called ED ZACH LEE. EVEN MARY HERSELF , SAID DO WHATEVER HE HE HE TELLS YOU . SHE pointed TO CHRIST not herself . SISTER , mary would cry rivers upon rivers of tears for those who have set her up as co heir of salvation and pray to her . THE ANGELS THEMSELVES would bodly proclaim YOU BOW TO GOD and no OTHER . THIS idolatry MUST CEASE . MARY IS BLESSED , but not worshipped . YOU spot on sister . NOW PRAISE THE LORD .

Sister.......idolatry is spiritual death....clearly. Not to be taken lightly. And certainly not to appear in any way to defend or minimize it. I don't belong to a denomination or even a particular church......they are man-made cisterns that hold no water......bushels (roofs and walls) placed over the candlesticks.......and that is becoming more and more evident as the protestant church is falling away and thus becoming prone to the same judgments and plagues of the Roman church...filling up with plagues.

Yes, Jesus was God come in the flesh. And Mary was a human vessel....just as we all are human vessels of Christ spiritually, if we truly know Him.....as such she was a type and shadow of those who believe and the first to know Him. Simple....simplicity. But anyone who makes more of those things than God intends we should get themselves in over their heads and far astray. I highly doubt God intends we should make an idol of a type and shadow...that way lies death.

Could this be the word of God as in the recorded words of the Bible, when it is lower case 'w'. As the Word of God when the W is capitalized, then is a reference for being Jesus. Perhaps? Like John 1:1 but when it is lowered case, it is perhaps meant to be the words of the Bible. Let me know what you think. Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the 'word' of God. John 1:14 And the 'Word' was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. I to believe Jesus is God.

Ex 21:18-19 18 "And if men have a quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but remains in bed; 19 if he gets up and walks around outside on his staff, then he who struck him shall go unpunished; he shall only pay for his loss of time, and shall take care of him until he is completely healed. NASB

No...it has to do with the fact that Catholicism makes captives of souls instead of setting them free. Jesus came to set captives free, not lead them to bondage and hell. And the fact that it is so full of plagues tells us what God Himself thinks of Catholicism....judged and found wanting, I'm sorry to say. Clearly and plainly exposing the fact of it's spiritual pollution, that it is not a holy vessel but a polluted one....so that all who pass by her, if they have eyes to see with, can see and know. Edit: I would think that spiritual death is scary and something to be upset about....that is where souls are led when they become imprisoned within Catholicism, sadly.

There have been many insightful responses on this issue in this thread already. As others have said, we most definitely should not “despise” or “hate” any person or group of people (our battle is not against “flesh and blood”, it’s a spiritual one). We are, however, to speak the truth, in love. It is not loving to withhold the truth. The Catholic Church, in its official doctrines and traditions, teaches “another Gospel”. To be saved according to Catholic teaching, one must go through many steps throughout one’s life and even then one cannot ever be sure of salvation. Scripture, by contrast, assures us that we can know we are saved. (1 John 5:13) I encourage you to do some careful research into Catholicism, if you haven’t already. On the other side of this issue is the “Ecumenical Movement”. There may indeed be many who speak up regarding the major issues with Catholicism, unfortunately, however, there are also many Protestants and Evangelicals joining with the Pope and the Catholic Church today. This is an ongoing movement that has become increasingly popular over the years. You may want to do some research into this topic as well. God bless!

For a light read, you can read Among the sons of Seth. It is online and it is free. Abigails Journey by Judith Bronte is a good book as well, and is also online and free.

We are to love the Catholics. But, we are to share truth, the light of the true gospel, and NOT wimp out, to get a warm fuzzy feeling about how we love God's creatures. I am so eternally fortunate some old true believer boldly shared the true gospel to my wife and me, and I left the Roman catholic church, converted, saved. What you believe, JTC, if not lined up with scripture, will help no one, who desperately need the truth of God's word. It is not our 'feelings' that are important, it is planting seeds of truth. The Catholic church DOES NOT proclaim truth, but their perverted false doctrine. What does God say about being yoked (reunited) as you say to the RCC; 2Co 6:14-18 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. St Charles Borromeo invented the confessional box in the 16th century. Today only two percent of Catholics go to confessionals. The Catholic church believes they have the authority (power) to absolve sins. Power over the flock. When the church started the young children at six years old going to the dark box alone with "celibate" priest, the child abuser pedophile priest scandals were discovered. This is church history. Don't trust me. Research yourself. Or ck out documented research in book below. THE DARK BOX: A SECRET HISTORY OF CONFESSION By John Cornwell The Dark Box is an erudite and personal history; Cornwell draws on his own memories of Catholic boyhood, and weaves it with the story of confession from its origins in the early church to the current day, where its enduring psychological potency is evidenced by everything from the Vatican's 'confession app' to Oprah Winfrey's talk shows. Since the 16th century, seclusion of two individuals in the intimate 'dark box', often discussing sexual actions and thoughts, has eroticised the experience of confession. When, in 1905, Pius X made confession a weekly, rather than yearly ritual, the horrific cases of child abuse which have haunted the Catholic church in the twentieth century became possible

That has already been happening, somewhat with the division between left and right. It's become less politics and more rampant and uncontrolled idealism on both sides, a maelstrom of malcontent that tends to sweep up many who come into contact with it. However, in my eyes, I haven't much concern for the US. The only thing that matters to me is continuing to try and grow in the faith, to try and become a better Christian. After all, I could tear apart both myself and others trying to set things right by my own ideals and ego... Or I could keep my gaze on what comes beyond all this nonsense.

Sounds good, Marilyn. You might message me after you start it if I haven't chimed in in a reasonable amount of time.

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You are welcome TT. it is a song, that bring grateful tears to my eyes.

‘And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, .. Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, .... hearken unto my speech: ...... for I have slain a man to my wounding, ........ and a young man to my hurt.’ (Gen 4:23) * See Gen 3:17 : * Can be rendered:- 'I can kill a man for wounding me, and a young man for hurting me.' The words, 'I have', being (grammatically) - a continuous present.

Hi Brother Duke, how would i explain the above? Well when we come to God through by asking Him to help us and we repent to Him and ask Him for forgivenss through His only begotten Son Christi Jesus , by accepting Christ being the only Son of God and having died for ours and taking propriation for them thus having paid the penalty in full for them, I ask God for forgiveness through Christ and also i ask that God come make a home in my heart. By repenting and being willing to turn my life away from sin, dying to self and follow Christ Jesus, The Holy Spirit of God, ie the comforter comes and makes His home in my heart. He is the one who works in me by bringing back in me God consciousness (His law become written in my heart) and helps me to further see my sins, and feel contrite about them, and help me to shed more and more of my sin nature and keeps transforming me more and more into the child of God i was always made to be through Him, He becomes my guide, my teacher within me and through that also helps me more and more understand His word. So the mind of Christ also aligns my mind with His because He lives in me through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God.

Hi Distaste, We need to realise that all who die to self and follow the Lord will be caught up to be with the Lord to the third heaven. There they will judge the world system and fallen angels. Now the people who are left on the earth are the `rebellious` against God. However as things get difficult untold millions will turn to the Lord. (the great multitude that no one can count). These all die of - heat, hunger or thirst! Yet they turn from their selfish ways and turn to God. And all through the judgments people can turn to God but we see that many do not repent. `...and they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.` (Rev. 9: 21) Everyone, yes everyone who goes into the time of God`s judgment, have not humbled themselves under God`s mighty hand. yet still God gives mercy as long as people have breath. However they will not be included in the Body of Christ purpose, but will go onto the new earth, as they hold palm branches in their hand. palm branches signify the time of `tabernacles` and that means God tabernacling/dwelling with His people on earth. All areas of God`s great kingdom will have people who humble themselves under Him, the difference is that God, yes God Himself declares when each of His purposes have been completed. Marilyn.

Beautiful! The combination of scenery, worship and her powerful voice go well together. Where exactly was it filmed? Was it by you? I also like the scripture the song is based on. How long has she been in music ministry?

Hmmm.... He hasn't read this story deeply enough. Jesus is inviting the rich young ruler to look deeply into what "goodness" is - and it isn't man-driven keeping of laws. THAT's what the young man thought is was - hence his begging Jesus to tell him what to do in terms of works. Jesus isn't denying his Godship or his supernatural identity. He is preparing the young man to understand what goodness is and where it comes from. It comes only FROM God to the believer. When this young man called Jesus "good", he was talking about his healings, teachings, and his taking care of people. His works. The young man wanted to do works too that would make him right with God. He was grossly mistaken. Most people miss this very vital point of the story. If this young man had understood that Jesus WAS God, and that goodness is supernaturally God's alone, he wouldn't have used that word for Christ - I know that sounds ironic, but it is. He didn't see Jesus as a God or the God. Just a hardworking teacher. He thought he could at least work a little hard and obtain God's favor. Jesus, indeed was asking the young man and all of us today to examine goodness. People believed Jesus was "good" and if they understood goodness, they would automatically understand that Jesus was God. Jesus said that goodness was God's alone. Not in denying his divine nature, but in claiming it. Your friend has only skimmed the surface and found Jesus lacking. He has done EXACTLY what the young man in this story has done.

Hi, Point of view? The statement is a transition point in the presentation by Paul under inspiration of a God about God's plan for Israel which is taken up from the opening of what we call chapter nine on through chapter 11. Paul has stated the condition of Israel, has discussed the doctrine of election and now shifts to personal responsibility that no one is elected to not receive Christ Jesus as Lord. Israel has followed after the law of righteousness, but has not attained righteousness. At Paul's time the gentiles were in general not interested in rightousness, yet they were opn to the gospel of Jesus, while the Jews his kinsmen, were closed to it. From that transition point he goes on to share of God's plan for Israel. That's my "take".

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV) [15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. That which is imperfect cannot bring perfection... God says the Scriptures are abled to bring man into perfection... anyone who stands against this reality stands outside of Scripture and is subject to judgment of such...

The Jews ended up believing that attained eternity with God by complying with the Law.. The Gentiles where given the truth that salvation was attained by believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for their salvation.. The law was never a way to eternity with God.. The law was a tool to show people why they needed a Redeemer and why they could not attain eternity with God by their own efforts.. The law revealed that the Jews where all sinners.. The Grace of God revealed to Gentiles ( and to the Jews who did believe ) that they where all forgiven sinners..

The Puritans feared God a lot more than we do today.

Instead of being dismissive of this verse which clearly defines the bride of Christ, Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. Revelation 21:9-10 why not use it to enhance your understanding of the bride of Christ? If what you pursue is the truth, then you're going to have to let go of the teachings of men when they come in conflict with the clear statements of the Bible. Looking at the description of the holy city Jerusalem we see the following: It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Revelation 21:12-14 According to the truth revealed in Revelation 21 about the bride of Christ, we know for sure that the bride is not exclusively a new covenant reference. Are you going to reject Revelation 21's definition of the bride, or are you going to embrace it instead of the teachings of men? What say you?

I don't know alot about them, but think their prayers and devotionals are quite insightful. I have a Congregational hymnal (I think the Congregational churches came from the Pilgrims). The prayers and readings in the back of the hymnal are really beautiful.

There is a bride but it is not the gentiles. Israel is still betrothed to God. I still submit that the 144,000 remnant of Israel from all the tribes not just Judah are the bride. God will reunite all of Israel back together and they will once again be his people and his betrothed. Looks and see who comes back with Christ. It is not the gentiles. The 144,000 are with Christ forever after he returns. Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. 11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hosea 2:14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. 19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads Revekation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

I'm not making any commentary on individual people, but that church as an organization is full of plagues......most of the people don't know that they are being led and taught in many cases by occultists, pedophiles and homosexuals, as well as priests who prey on the nuns who are essentially held prisoner in cloistered convents....all these things take place under the cover of darkness. Catholic people may be kind, they may be generous, they may be friendly....so are new agers and buddhists....and Satan himself transforms into an angel of light.....but they are for the most part being led down a garden path that parallels the gospel and eternal life but without ever finding it. And even then how many of those kind people drink like fish on the weekends, go pubbing and partying, engage in fornication before marriage, do their fund raising with gambling casinos and bingos, and hold dances with cash bars.....and are no different from the world in other ways. Also, there is some value for this life in having a mental belief in Christ and receive some instruction in righteousness...it can help individuals to live better in some ways, at least outwardly.....but this life is awfully short, and to have eternal life we need to be born again of the Holy Spirit. All our righteousness is as filthy rags to God....so we need the righteousness of Christ. I know the difference because I once was Catholic before being born again. It can be so deceptive to judge by the outward appearance of things. Regarding "putting out fleeces".......under the new covenant we walk by faith, not by fleeces (sight).....however the Lord Himself says to let everything be established on the strength of two or three witnesses....so if you need confirmation for something you believe the Lord is showing or speaking to you, then seek that second witness and He will give it to you. The third witness is the Holy Spirit, already present with the first and second witnesses. Brother, the bible tells us what happens to souls who don't know the Lord and reject the gospel.....they face the judgment and lake of fire.

This is not surprising.. If one is in a religion that believes that ones eternal destination is based on their performance at being a good person and living up to the level of righteousness of Jesus then you can be sure they will do their absolute best to be as good as they can be.. But if a person believes their salvation is secured by their personal performance in being good enough and doing good works then they are in big big trouble...

Main reason I don't wear shirts with messages on them is I often have to stare at a message shirt to read the message, and don't want other people to wind up staring at MY chest.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Iamlamad, my understanding of eschatology was derived without the help of Rosenthal and Van Kampen. Although, I appreciate men who had the courage to stand against apostacy knowing that they will pay a great price. What they lost isn't comparable to the reward that awaits them for their faithfulness. Nor is temporal fame of their detractors comparable to the eternal loss that they shall suffer. By the way, I have yet to read either of their books. My teaching is entirely my own understanding as I attempt to be led by the Holy Spirit in dilligent study of the Holy Scriptures. When you say the rapture will be pre-seventieth week you make the same error as the classic pre-tribbers. Jesus correctly identified the unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation as starting when the Beast shall stand in the Temple, shewing himself to be God. When he does that in the middle of the week, the Temple will be defiled, causing the oblation and the sacrifice to cease. There is no argument against the great tribulation beginning in the middle of the week. That means that the great tribulation is in the first part of the second half of the week. There is also no arguing against the fact that there will be Christians (believers in Jesus Christ, the elect) martyred during the great tribulation. The Lord made it clear that before, but on the same day as His wrath falls upon the wicked, He will rescue His own. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. None of His own will experience His wrath. All who say that the great tribulation is the wrath of God are deceived and deceiving others. God forbid, that He would pour out His wrath upon His own faithful servants, most of whom, will die as martyrs loving not their lives unto death. Paul made it clear that the day God begins to tribulate the unbelieving Beast worshippers is the day that the church rests from persecution. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Your system of eschatological understanding is contrary to these great truths. Paul said that we (the elect of God, believers in Jesus Christ) are not appointed unto the wrath of God on the day of the Lord but to be saved from it. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. ... 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Pre-tribbers have believers suffering the wrath of God. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb.

Eph. 5:18 And be not drunken with wine, wherein is riot, but be filled with the Spirit; v. 18a - Drinking wine that produces "riot" (intoxication) is forbidden. v. 18b - If we are to be "filled" with the Spirit (His teaching, His word), then there will be no room for wine that produces riot. v. 18a - Delving further, the Greek word "drunken" here is an inceptive verb. It describes the beginning of a process. Literally, it means "do not begin to drink wine, where in is riot". There are many other passages which overtly address alcohol also, even demanding soberness (literally free from intoxication). But this one is pretty clear & emphatic. ---------- As far as Grape juice being referred to as "wine": The main OT & NT words for "wine" are generic words, describing a range of things that come (originally) from the grape. Examples include: Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith Jehovah, As the new **wine** is found in the **cluster**, and one saith, Destroy it not, for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants’ sake, that I may not destroy them all. This is clearly the grape's juice still in the grape... not fermented. Also, Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new **wine** into old wine-skins: else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new **wine** into fresh wine-skins, and both are preserved. This is clearly grape juice being put into new wine skins. Prior to any decay/fermentation. It is the process of aging/decaying/fermenting that releases gasses and which would stretch a new wine skin / burst an old one if reused. Thus, we must consider context when reading the word "wine" in the Bible, to see if it is speaking of grape juice as wine or fermented, intoxicating "wine". Biblical language is not identical to modern language.

Yes, she's amazing! She's going away for 6 weeks for a few conferences in the States and Mexico -- all without me! So you can pray that the kids survive!