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  1. In light of all the much more important life-or-death things that have been said here about the Roman church, when the main thing that worries a person has to do with whether Mary remained a perpetual virgin or not....good golly.....we just have to know they are bound up in their cult dogmas and have no ears to hear. That is not salvation, and I fear for their souls....they are not serving Christ but a man-made image of Him, which they love more than truth. Talk about having your eyes off the ball and chasing wild geese down a rabbit trail. I pray you will wake up my Catholic friends, eternal life is not down that way, only a DEAD end. You need to stop revering mere mortals and listening to their voices, and come back to the Shepherd of your soul and know HIS voice. Look at the word of God with a fresh pair of eyes and let the washing of the water of HIS word transform your minds. Except you be born again you cannot see the kingdom of God....and without holiness no-one will see the Lord. All OUR righteousness is as filthy rags to Him.....you need to put on the righteousness/holiness of Christ.....we have it not of ourselves. There is no eternal life apart from Him. Your Popes can't change you, your cathedrals can't change you, nor your priests, nor rituals.....but only the High Priest Jesus Christ who sits at the right hand of God can save you....He is the only one who can wash you clean and put a new heart within you and seat you in heavenly places. Come to Him.
    3 points
  2. It is valid as a thesis. It looks like the pretrib group has taken this privilege for themselves as we do not see a pretrib rapture in scripture. We do see many details surrounding a gathering, just not a pretrib gathering. One would think great detail should accompany a gathering of a billion righteous people, so perfect in their heart and their walk with the Father that this ginormous group is taken off the earth ALIVE, without dying. That should merit some mention as to timing since only two people in history could claim the same. Maybe like, "A billion people were not because God took them." Or maybe the dramatic scene of Elijah ascending to heaven. I know you explained what you meant by being watchful. But that's it? Keep your life in order? Watch and pay your bills? Is that so? Isn't that inconsistent with PreTrib doctrine? As Christians the Pretrib folk stake their hope on 1 Thess 5:9, "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." I don't see where Paul said, "Only the Pretrib believers are not appointed to wrath." And he did not say, "God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, unless you are not watching and your life is a shambles." Paul begins, "...brothers and sisters..." That's all believers. Paul said, "...did not appoint US..." That's all believers again. Even if you don't agree with that why does PreTrib condemn any believer to wrath when God himself did not appoint any to wrath? This is also a problem. You said God is pouring out His wrath. No believer is appointed to wrath whether that wrath is wrapped in semantics or not. So if the judgments are the wrath of God, then the Lamb administered wrath through 'judgments' is what is killing the martyrs. It would not matter if those judgments were fire, water, earth, air or meteors, it's wrath, to which no believer is appointed. If this concept is the great escape for some, why not all? During the wrath of the Lamb some are saved? So immediately upon becoming born again in the Spirit, sins remitted by the Blood of the Lamb, Saved through Jesus Christ, these babes in Christ are going to face wrath from their Savior? The entire tribulation is wrath according to PreTrib, it's a bedrock tenet that allows Pretrib adherents to escape tribulation as "God did not appoint US to wrath. How can some of US then be appointed to wrath? The problem is equating wrath with tribulation. Pretrib exiles context in favor of text and magically unrelated concepts are now synonymous, and that from thin air. The three statement from above lead me to conclude there exists a vast group that walks the earth in perfection of the Spirit, holy and righteous before God, that will be taken off the earth alive; while this same group dooms some it's own members to the gauntlet of horror of the wrath of the Lamb based only on the premise they were watching properly and their lives were more in order than those 'others'. This epistemology born of the PreTrib doctrine is prejudiced, privileged, elitism. But you can renounce it and start fresh. You don't have to continue in this. The truth is out there.
    3 points
  3. He did . He set the people straight . When one cried BLESSED are the paps which thou did suck , HE stopped that direction which pointed to humanity AND POINTED IT RIGHT BACK where it belongs . NAY , Rather BLESSED are those who do the will of GOD . LIke paul and barnabas did , WHEN the people wanted to EXALT THEM , THEY SAID NOPE , OH NO YA DONT , We men , we just men , WE just men Rather odd the POPES all sit IN HIGH places and men and women worship them. WHEN Even the one they claimed was the first pope , PETER , NEVER LIVED LIKE THAT AT ALL . HMMMMMM. You know whose docrtrine I avoid , THE DOCTRINE OF MEN which exalts MEN . Sadly THE ROMAN SYSTEM DOES NO SUCH THING . Mary is blessed , and we all know that . BUT she nor any man , IS TO BE PRAYED TOO , KNELT TOO . HECK even the angel himself TOLD JOHN TWICE YA BETTER GET UP and CEASE THAT . WORHSIP GOD . WORSHIP GOD , WORSHP GOD . but ROME knows NO SUCH THING . AND I bodly SHUN her doctrines of falshoods
    2 points
  4. Sometimes it is the pride of life that causes a person to think they have surpassed their spouse. You can also call it the pride of education. Instead of understanding that they compliment each other they start thinking one is superior to the other. I had people stop speaking to me because they graduated from a private college and I from a state college. But I know many guys that had their wives put them through college and then dumped them as soon as they graduated. It had more to do with using people. It takes as much effort to make a marriage work as it does to graduate from college. Marriages take time, communication, appreciation, and they need to be cultivated. I have to admit that I went back to college after our kids were in grade school and it felt awfully good to communicate in multi syllable words. But I never felt that way toward my husband. He had excelled in math and I in languages. We complimented each other. We need to value and appreciate each others gifts. My dad had a masters degree and my mom a high school diploma. But their marriage was till death as was mine.
    2 points
  5. This is the type of thing that requires some amount of discernment and balance to understand. I think the key is to be aware that the spiritual world can influence the physical world but by the same token some things that happen are likely just from living in a fallen world. Also, we need to be aware that the path and journey we'd prefer to walk along is not always the same one God has planned. I recall once when I was in a Christian band (as a guitarist), the day before one of our biggest events, I was at work, grabbed a piece of wire and sliced a big gash on my thumb. An hour or so later, I put a nearly identical cut onto my other thumb. In what ended up being nearly 20 years working there, that was the only time I ever cut myself like that and I never really changed any working habits. I ended up wrapping up a few band aids on each thumb and managed to play okay though it did affect me. It was a highly unlikely event. In one sense, I'm hesitant to say demonic influences affected my attention and judgement so that I cut myself. On the other hand, two injuries that only happened once in 20 years and on the day before a big spiritual outreach leaves one wondering. This was also during a time where there was a lot of spiritual contention and fighting going on in the area. I don't feel a strong need to definitely answer the question of what was involved there. I'm willing to live with a mystery and things that are not completely known. I've had a few things in my life that were immediately changed. I once had a number of phobias just vanish in response to prayer. I had a serious shoulder injury (with symptoms of a torn rotator cuff) return to normal over a period of a few months. I went from not being able to touch the top of my head with my right hand to full motion with no discomfort and full strength. I've had other things that have just remained. I've heard many similar testimonies from other people over the years. As a practical spiritual matter, it is the immediate healing of the phobias that has turned out to be a powerful spiritual anchor for me in my life. I had not even been thinking about those things (and had just accepted them as part of my personality and a normal part of my life). We had a guest speaker, God impressed strongly on me that I should go up for prayer afterwards, the speaker just prayed a brief generic prayer over me (not even saying anything about fear or other such stuff), and I immediately sensed things changed inside of me. In spite of whatever doubts or crises of faith I might have, I fall back onto a "there is no way phobias just vanish on their own" sense that God did something I cannot explain. In one sense it ended up being a John 9 type of thing for me (like the blind man who was healed and in spite of pressure and contention merely kept saying the one thing I know is that I was blind and now I see). It is ironic in some ways that one of the more significant spiritual events in my life was something where God just did it unexpectedly. In all things, I think that the key is to keep our eyes focused on the path and journey God has us on. I've been a Christian for over 40 years now and have seen a number of miraculous recoveries of people with severe illnesses, and others with no recovery. I've seen immediate recoveries where people just had stunned looks on their faces, other times where things improved over time that weren't expected to, and other times where nothing changed. I've seen some things happen in instant response to prayer and sometimes in response over time to much corporate prayer. My sense of things is that God sometimes directly intervenes and does things in ways that show His grace and power that build our faith and that other times there are tough paths we walk through that we learn from and gain experience that allows us to better minister to others that are suffering. Often, the most effective ministers are those who have walked a particular path themselves. The only definitive thing I would say here is that Christians have wide variety of opinions on such things (and some hold them quite strongly). Some strongly believe that miracles are rare and not to be sought after, other believe that miracles are to be expected in response to prayer (and if nothing happens it is a lack of "faith" that is the reason). Some Christians think spiritual attacks with physical effects are exceedingly rare and others think they are much more common. Christians with this range of views all point to various Bible verses they use to prove why they think they are correct. As a practical matter, I don't immediately blame everything wrong on spiritual attacks, but I don't immediately rule it out either. If I don't have a strong spiritual sense of direction on something, I'll pray for discernment and wisdom. When asked to pray for other people, as much as possible, I try to pray for what I sense that God wants me to pray for. As with everything else of this nature, I take what I sense with a grain of salt. It might be a random thought passing through my head, or it might be God's Spirit directing me. As an example, I recall once that a few of us were praying for a gentleman after church who had been in a serious accident. Everyone else was praying some eloquent serious prayers for healing and as I stood there, the word "sleep" kept popping into my head. He had said nothing about it, but I just prayed a simple, "Lord, help your child to have calm restful nights" or some such one or two sentence prayer. After we finished, he looked at me and said that he hadn't had a good nights sleep in weeks. The next week we again prayed for him, and the one thing he reported that was that while he still was in serious pain, that he had started sleeping much better and was much more relaxed than he had been. In the larger scheme of things, God wanted His child to know that He was with him in this. In hindsight, my sense of things was that this man was struggling with not only the physical stress of the aftermath of the accident but a spiritual sense of feeling abandoned. God simply doing something out of the blue (having someone pray for something he hadn't asked for and seeing it happen) was probably part of His way of dealing with the spiritual issue that was going on to let this man know that he was not abandoned and that God was indeed with him.
    2 points
  6. "Totally unknown?" More fabrications. Not knowing the day or hour does not make it "totally unknown." Stick with what the Bible actually says if you want clarity in the matter. The teachings of men only serve to muddy the water.
    1 point
  7. It is only unknown to those in darkness. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4 Seems that you lean waaaay too heavily on the teachings of men.
    1 point
  8. FWIW, I've had this same rule ever since I started posting on the internet in 1996: Every time I post, I imagine that the one person in the world that has the capacity to do me the most harm, and will attack me in any way they possibly can, using my words against me at every opportunity, will read this post. I confess in getting a bit lazy about it of late, but I understand the concept that more people than just the person I'm responding to is reading my post. I'm actually thinking of sending a link to this thread to my pastor and hopefully getting his take on it. He may be able to teach me some things.
    1 point
  9. I have to say that is one of the most ironic posts I've ever seen. Seriously. No, I'm not joking. Nothing funny about it.
    1 point
  10. I don't agree with such an opinion either. Does that mean we agree? I think that where we differ is that we may both have a hyperbolic perspective of the other side's beliefs. i.e. I may see your perspective regarding the bible as similar to the Joseph Smith golden tablets regarding the BOM and you see my perspective on the bible as just another self help book. I think we both are pretty close regarding the authority of the bible in its original text. maybe not identical, but pretty close. And hey, even the apostles had some pretty strong disagreements.
    1 point
  11. Amen. When a full-blown epidemic of gross perversions and life-long pain and trauma and harm to children in their church is less important than whether Mary had intimate relations with her legitimate husband (marriage bed is undefiled), then we can see clearly what Paul said of such: Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. It touches them not that the grown men who are teaching and preaching to them are abusing and destroying the lives and souls of children, yet it matters so much more and they insist that Mary not have had sex with her own husband as if that is their definition of holiness and righteousness. What kind of perverse sickness blinds them so? Really, how dare such people so completely ignorant of the word and ways of God come here and presume to speak in the name of Christ. I hope they repent and turn to HIM before it's too late.
    1 point
  12. I often mention the fact that even peaceful Jesus turned over tables and whipped people.But one of my favorite stories from the old Testament is Elija and the priests of Baal. https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-stories/chapter-34-elijah-and-the-priests-of-baal?lang=eng Elija has loads of fun with those guys, at one point asking, when Baal is not consuming the offering, "Maybe he's in the bathroom..." I'm not saying I'm "feeling" the same disrespect with the posters here as Elija was with the priests of Baal. But when an argument just gets silly, it's time to have fun. Christians are allowed to have fun. And to be clear. It's not that I'm not taking Jesus or his word seriously. It's US I'm not taking seriously. Yes, that includes me. We're so far removed from absolute truth and so wrong in so many ways that we can't even imagine, that it is comical when we really get our panties in a wad over so much of this stuff. God's fairly powerful. He knows what he's doing. He'll let us know when we're on the wrong path, assuming we are His. And if one is not "chosen", well, then they should eat and drink for tomorrow they die.
    1 point
  13. Hey! I resemble that remark!
    1 point
  14. I'm not sure I understand all I think I know about that.
    1 point
  15. I think I made pretty clear, throughout this thread, what we disagreed on. And I carefully spelled out exactly what we agreed on, once I understood how the word, "innerant" was being used. The definition was given and I said I agreed with it regarding the bible.
    1 point
  16. Peterson is huge on discussing the problems with post-modernists. And yes, I do seem to contradict myself if you make incorrect inferences. And now it's confession time. But first, I must make it clear that what I'm outlining below I AM NOT doing here. At least not consciously: My wife, who loves me dearly, has told me that I do have a way of "lying" to people by telling the truth. She said I say things intentionally to get people to make incorrect inferences. That is, I will use precise language, but in a way that some people will think I'm saying A when I'm really saying B. I do it when I don't respect the people I'm debating and when I'm setting them up. An illustration of how it might work: It actually slightly annoys me when people say "I could care less" because what they really mean is "I couldn't care less". So I might say "I could care less", meaning, "I care about this more than I care about other things", knowing full well the person listening interprets it as "I couldn't care less." Language is a powerful tool when expertly used. It does a lot more than communicate, and it communicates in many ways. I think Jesus was very "coy" in many of the things he said to his spiritual enemies in the gospels. He is a genius with language. Heck, according to one definition, the whole bible, on many subjects, is textbook coyness.
    1 point
  17. Based on your definition, I'm not a post-modernist. Quite the opposite, in fact. BTW, I'm a huge fan of Jordan Peterson.:)
    1 point
  18. I think you just like to argue.:D Edit: FWIW, calling someone else a liar is not really the high road in any debate/discussion. And watering it down with phrases like "you were deceptive" doesn't water it down at all.
    1 point
  19. That right there sums it up. But it's not that I don't understand inerrancy. It is that I don't understand how some people are trying to use the word when discussing the bible. There is a "special" definition of the word in such circles, apparently. I come across that a lot. I remember one guy, when we were talking about the word death said, "that's not how the bible defines the word." I thought that was funny and said to him "Dictionaries define words. The bible uses words." He actually got really angry because of what that meant to his doctrine. I'm a binary thinker (black and white). It has its advantages and disadvantages. In my job it is a huge plus. In discussions like this it has tremendous advantages but also disadvantages. Take this thread, for example. Whenever anyone uses the word inerrancy, I use my steadfast belief that words have meaning and those meanings must be well defined if effective communication is to take place. so Whenever I see someone say the English translation of the old and new testaments are inerrant, this is where my mind goes (in it I suspect you can see the problem I'm having): in·er·rant [inˈerənt] ADJECTIVE incapable of being wrong.
    1 point
  20. Hi, Yes I have been there done that as the saying goes. I have a now old family member that spent much time in the microbiology aspects of it all and became a "practitioner" for many years. It in my own opinion did not benefit greatly, but it did cause some, unnecessary grief, including my own. My own warning to all is do not obsess with it. Do not let it rule over you and do not use it as a substitute for good medical assistance. Never delay seeking the counsel and examination by a physican thinking that testing for ph and electrolytes and so called Biblical diet and fasting will be a good program for good health maintenance, as compared to such things as- for women having a Pap smear test, and for men having a prostate exam. Cancer is a hard, hard, way to go as many of us so personally know that have lost loved ones to it.
    1 point
  21. The Greeks talked about fasting for mental clarity. Basically, getting your body off the roller coaster of using glucose (sugar / carb) for energy can lead to more constant overall energy levels. When your body switches from glucose to ketones as a primary energy source, the brain can frequently function better. There are studies with lots of microbiology explaining all that. If we define fasting as eating no food and no drinks with calories like juice, different lengths of fasting can yield different benefits. Fasting for under three days likely keeps a person's body in glucose mode, so you don't get the mental clarity benefit. If you don't watch your electrolyte levels carefully, the process of switching from glucose to ketones can be unpleasant and is even coined 'keto flu'. If your electrolytes are good and you make it past three days, your body is likely switching to ketones for energy. That means glucose reserves are used up and your body is burning fat for energy. At that point, one will likely stop being hungry as much and the mental clarity starts being apparent. Note for some people this can take a couple extra days. Cravings for sweets and carbs typically takes about three weeks to go away. A four day fast has been noted to cause one's body to start rebuilding the immune system. If one does a fast beyond 21 days, the body may have time to rebuild much of the digestive system. I've done fasts up to 28 days in the past and my experience matched these predictions. Everyone is different. Some people can easily fast for long times, with others it's more complicated. Do your research and be careful if you decide to trying fasting beyond skipping a meal or two.
    1 point
  22. And that is why it is said, TODAY if you will hear HIS VOICE harden not your heart . Their is grave danger in resisting truth . And we see its effects even in acts . But when some were hardened they came against paul and stirred up even the people to persecute . I am beginning to see words like haters increasing from shack lovers and all inclusive ones , AGAINST the true ones who wont buy the lie . You watch for it . I seen it even on this site . Their are some amongst us whose purpose is no longer the gospel , they think its the gospel , BUT its not . ITS focus is on sensual things , other books, other teachings , and I seen them use words like HATERS against some of us who will not agree with them . THIER is a very dark spirit at work , It first infects the mind of all who go under it , but it is slowly and WILL ALSO INCREASE in evil affecting their minds TO COME FULLY AGAINST the truth and those who resist the sensual lies . THIS spirit though its call is peace , unity , all inclusive sensual BEWARE it, it is false . And its infecting more and more . And if we want to see an example of what this will do , we need only to look back at the times of Germany and the jews . The jews were not attacked and killed on day one NO , that spirit affected minds , and made them to first start seeing the jew as bad , as a problem . WELL this spirit is doing that with a new scapegoat . US , the ones who wont budge from THE BIBLE the ones who wont budge from CHRIST , the ones who wont conform. WE the obstacle in the way of their world peace and unity , and we will get the blame and it will get worse in time . Their minds are becoming more and more evil affected , stirred up Against us , as they go further into this delusion the delusion , which will lead them to the beast and the beast will come full force against the lambs . YOU watch for it . YOU will see this increase .
    1 point
  23. Hi, A very very interesting take on the subject of fasting! Perhaps deserves a thread of it's own. At least a reading of the entirety of Isaiah 58 should be beneficial for here too.
    1 point
  24. I am not going to get involved with a long debate on this topic; however, I should add my thoughts since I have actual experiences of churches being ruined by the homosexual agenda, a gay pastor and a pro-gay pastor. First of all, I don't go around condemning people.... homosexuals or otherwise. I have neighbors that seem to be gay and formerly had neighbors that were openly lesbians except to their family in The Philippines. I treated all of them respectfully like any of my neighbors. I think the reason Bible believing Christians are speaking out about homosexuality being wrong in God's sight is because the homosexuals are actively pushing an agenda in the Church. This agenda is that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. They do not believe it is a sin and they actively promote their lifestyle in certain churches. They think they have "more light" than us that are believing what God's word says. Also, they are becoming pastors so they can infiltrate the churches and push their agenda even more. The adulterers, fornicators, etc, are not pushing the churches to declare those sins as right. Whereas, homosexuals are pushing their sin as right. So even though I don't point a finger at my neighbors, etc, I believe we Bible believing Christians must speak up about and against the invasion of homosexuality as being right, being pushed down our throats in some churches.
    1 point
  25. The wrath of God does not happen until the 7th and last trump,the 2nd coming,so can some one please tell me how this happens during the tribulation?
    1 point
  26. I do believe God has been and will continue to call all of His children out. They will hear His voice and follow Him, because they know their Shepherd.
    1 point
  27. Rather ODD the so called first pope , WHCH WE KNOW is bogus , BUT they say he was . PETER and JOHN once said to the poor beggar , SILVER and gold have we none But what we have that WE GIVE THEE, ARISE IN JESUS NAME . How come the so called first pope was so different THAN ALLL THE OTHER POPES . WANNA KNOW WHY , CAUSE HE WAS NOT NO POPE . PETER himself if he were raised today , WOULD CLEAN THAT HOUSE OF ROME OUT . and paul would be kicking down the front door and peter kicked down the back and james and others would be over turning tables and saying YOU MADE THIS ONE GIANT HOUSE OF , DEN OF THIEVES YOU getting over on the people , SO OUT WITH YOU . AND I can hardly begin to imagine what JESUS WILL DO when HE RETURNS . HE gonna lay down the wrath AGAINST that corrupt den of thieves and its all inclusive interfaith lie from hell and all her daughters . I LOVE you all, THAT IS WHY I SAY GET OUT OF THAT CHURCH and any church THAT DOES NOT HONOR THE SON . FOR HE who honors not the SON , HONORS not the FATHER . AND ROME is in total darkness . GET OUT OF HER and all her daughters .
    1 point
  28. God judges us by whether we have surrendered to Him as Savior and Lord, allowing Jesus to indwell us and live through us. He judges us as to if our names are written in the Lambs book of life. God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.
    1 point
  29. I think that means if you judge someone by the law, you will be judged by the law, but if you try to show love and mercy that's how you will be judged.
    1 point
  30. I rather help someone than fast. Isaiah chapter 58 verse 6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?
    1 point
  31. Hello Tyler S.! See the two greatest commandments in my signature below. Focus on those when you feel confused and you're protected forever! Cheers Brother!
    1 point
  32. That's exactly what I thought. If all he is doing is playing dominoes, he didn't do anything for her except act as a taxi driver. She put herself through school.
    1 point
  33. Wrongo by definition is the game played by all who follow the pope and the roman catholic church . Its a heavy game with a heavy price for all who partake of it and wont repent of it .
    1 point
  34. Hi Tyler! Glad you are feeling better! God loves you no matter what! None of us can be perfect or else Christ wouldn't have had to die for us! Praying for you! Try not to be so hard on yourself and others! We are saved by GRACE! And we never, ever stop needing it!
    1 point
  35. You mention Matthew 13:55-56. It seems you are claiming that these men were not his brothers by Mary, but instead were simply believers? If this is the assertion, it's easily proven incorrect using scripture only. Joh 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days. This was after immediately after the wedding at Cana, Christ's first recorded miracle in the book of John and probably the first of His ministry occurred at this wedding when He turned water into wine. There were only five disciples mentioned at this point (only four by name) and they had all been called within the previous week, Andrew, Simon Peter, and the unnamed disciple (probably John) at Bethabara after John the Baptist said "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" in the presence of the unnamed disciple and Andrew (both then disciples of John the Baptist), who then went and Retrieved Simon Peter. The last day in Bethabara Jesus was intent on traveling into Galilee (John 1:43). Not incidentally, Cana was in Galilee, directly west of the Sea of Galilee and about halfway between it and the Mediterranean Sea, maybe 15 to 20 miles of travel. The third day (almost certainly the third day from when Nathanael was called), there was a wedding in Cana. Mary was there and Jesus and His disciples were invited. I will post the scripture one more time for context. Joh 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days. This gives us a clear and concise delineation between Christ's disciples and Christ's brothers (who were born of Mary and Joseph). Any other theory along the lines of the one you pose above regarding "brothers in Christ" would require this sentence to actually mean "He, His mother, his disciples, his disciples, and they did not stay there (Capernaum) many days," which is, of course, absurd. This, of course, isn't the only evidence. We have yet another passage that specifically differentiates between Christ's brothers and His disciples. Joh 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill Him. Joh 7:2 Now the Jews' Feast of Tabernacles was at hand. Joh 7:3 His brothers therefore said to Him, "Depart from here and go into Judea, that Your disciples also may see the works that You are doing. Joh 7:4 For no one does anything in secret while he himself seeks to be known openly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world." Joh 7:5 For even His brothers did not believe in Him. Joh 7:6 Then Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready. Joh 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil. Joh 7:8 You go up to this feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, for My time has not yet fully come." This is pretty much self explanatory. Christ's own brothers did not believe He was Messiah (not yet, anyway). They encouraged Him to leave in an almost chiding manner, basically accusing Him of hiding out in Galilee. If they were his "brothers" in a spiritual sense, there's a big problem, because they didn't believe he was the Christ! Not only that, his brothers told Him to leave so He can show His disciples the works He was doing. There is no possible way to interpret these "brothers" as being his disciples. Mary's perpetual virginity is an abject absurdity in light of Matthew 1:24-25 as well. Mat 1:24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, Mat 1:25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. That version is the NKJV, which is what I typically use. Below are some translations that are officially sanctioned by the catholic church. 24 After Joseph woke up, he and Mary were soon married, just as the Lord’s angel had told him to do. 25 But they did not sleep together before her baby was born. Then Joseph named him Jesus. (CEV). 24 When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home. 25 He had no relations with her until she bore a son,[a] and he named him Jesus. (NABRE) 24 When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife, 25 but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus. (NRSV, CE) Pretty much every bible translation I know of translates this in the same or a similar manner as above. Words have meaning, words matter, and when the words in the scripture point to an obvious event, the only reason to discount them is to prop up a doctrine that is not present in the text itself, particularly to protect a doctrine that is clearly counter-indicated by the text itself, which is precisely the situation we find ourselves in here. If we were having a pleasant conversation one morning and I said to you "I didn't leave for work until I had coffee," would you assume that I never left for work? That I simply had coffee and retired to my living room for the rest of the day? If I said to you "John didn't escort Jane to the store until after she called him to let him know she was ready," would you assume that after she called him to let him know she was ready, he just never picked her up? Of course not. It's absurd! It is also absurd to assume that the word "until" here is easily interchanged with a word or words such as "ever" or "at all." Why, if one were to start changing the meanings of words so easily, they could find themselves making the bible say anything they'd like, and who wants that? I assume no one! I could go on, but I don't think there's any point in it. As noted above, even bibles that the Catholic church officially sanction are clear in their translation of Matthew 1:24-25 and this clearly states that he (Joseph) only refrained from marital relations with Mary until she had delivered Jesus. We can debate the meaning of the word "until" I suppose, but is that really necessary? It would be a farce. I suppose I could also show examples of the underlying Greek word here - heos (transliterated) actually meaning "until" in or "till, etc., but would there be any profit in that? Probably not. Any number of catholic theologians do all sorts of scriptural gymnastics to get around what the text clearly states in multiple areas regarding Christ's brothers and especially with regard to Mary's virginity after Christ's birth, but they do not derive that doctrine itself from the scriptures, but from the sacred tradition and other sources that are not God breathed. Man's tradition is perpetually wrought with failure after failure after failure throughout history in every possible context. God's word, though, will never pass away and can always be trusted. This is not a textual debate, try as the catholic church might to make it one, but a philosophical debate on whether or not the scriptures are what really matter. Here on our forums we affirm the primacy of the scriptures over any other source or combination of sources. This is specified within our statement of faith and we do take it seriously.
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  36. Exactly Blood Bought 1953! Romans 14:1-11 New King James Version (NKJV) The Law of Liberty 14 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; [a]and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died [b]and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of [c]Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV) 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” Cheers!
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  37. Paul said we are to judge fellow Christians......we are not to judge the world-that’s God’s Job
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  38. Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Marilyn, I'm sorry, but nothing that Jesus, John, or Paul says gives any indication that there will be many turning to Christ during the period of unprecedented persecution that Jesus called great tribulation. In fact, all that they say makes it very clear that the opposite will be happening. Many shall be departing from the faith. There are at least four reasons that many will not be coming to Christ in the great tribulation. Please note that the great tribulation begins in the middle of the last seven years of this age, a time we call Daniel's seventieth week. This time will be characterized by the domination and persecution of the saints of God by the Beast, the False Prophet and those that follow the Beast. In His Olivet Discourse, Jesus spoke much about this future period of unprecedented persecution. Matthew records Christ's details of the unparalleled "trouble" (Dan 12:1) beginning in Matt 24 verse 9. Christ continues speaking in the context of that period until verse 29. 1) Violent persecution will cause many to fall away Jesus says that after the beginning of sorrows violent persecution would come upon His followers (my name's sake) and that we would be hated by all nations Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. The "therefore" in verse 15 connects it back to verses 9-14. Beginning in verse 15, Jesus provides more detail concerning the unprecedented nature of this future persecution of the elect. He references Dan 9:27 for its starting point. He says that the persecution will be unprecedented (vs 21). He says that the period of unprecedented persecution will threaten to extinguish the elect from the earth (vs 22). He says that the days of this unparalleled persecution will be shortened to save some of the elect alive upon the earth (vs 22). Note that this persecution will not only be focused upon Christians, those who call upon the name of Jesus Christ, but also upon the inhabitants of Judaea (Israel) (Matt 24:16, 20). Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The result of this persecution and hatred would cause many to be offended, that is, fall away from the faith. Those who apostatize will hate and betray the saints. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. It should be noted that Jesus said in the parable of the soils (Matt 13), that those who received the Word with Joy into the stony ground were offended when persecution came. The meaning of offended in this context is to depart from the faith. They gladly embraced the Gospel until there was a cost associated with their identification with Christ, at which point they fell away. Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 2) Rather than many coming to Christ many will fall away due to the great deception of the false prophets and the false Christ's. That deception will be so great that if it were possible even the truly elect would be deceived. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Paul reiterated Christ's teaching concerning an apostasia (a departure from the faith), at least, in part, caused by signs and lying wonders 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Jesus says that His arrival at His coming will be unmistakable. So don't believe men's false reports. He says that the unprecedented persecution would be over when the cosmic sign is witnessed, for that heralds His appearing in the clouds with the holy angels to gather His elect to Himself. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Please take notice that "the tribulation of those days" in context is the unprecedented persecution that Jesus calls great tribulation in verse 21. 3) It is implied by Christ that when He comes there will be few if any believers left upon the earth. Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? John describes that he sees the martyred saints crying out for vengeance at the opening of the fifth seal. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. They are told that they would have to wait a little season for vengeance to come. Paul describes the vengeance coming at Christ's revelation, the very day that the church rests from persecution. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 4) Paul said that God would be sending strong delusion to those who believed not the truth, the context being the period of time around Christ's arrival. 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. There are only a few references that lend to any being saved during the great tribulation. These being saved are the remaining Gentiles added to the body of Christ (the fulness of the gentiles), and all Israel (the third remaining who will be brought through the fire and refined). Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: The fact that the Gospel continues to be preached until the end of the age provides an indication that some will be saved. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Hallelujah
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  39. Matthew 1:24-25 which you have quoted above says that Joseph knew her (Mary) not until she brought forth her first born son. "knew her not" means Joseph didn't have sexual relations with Mary until after the birth of Jesus. Anyone reading that Scripture verse should clearly see that Mary did not remain a virgin.
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  40. I think you are making a very big issue over words and definitions.. I do not believe it is a big issue of serious importance.. God knows who i am talking to when i say Father and Jesus and testament and Bible and all the other words contained in the Holy Bible.. Believing in the doctrine that God will only act for you if you use the exact right words is for me the same type of thinking we see in witchraft.. Where the wiccan must say the exact right words in the correct order and do their ceremonies in just the right way for it to work.. Our God is the God of total wisdom and all knowledge and He can without trouble understand the beliefs and intentions of each and every person, no matter if they make a mistake here or there.. God knows who knows Him... You being a mere mortal without knowledge of everything do not know who knows whom..
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  41. Hi Marilyn, I'll own up to being that "someone." Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. Revelation 21:9-10 Two questions about this passage: What did the angel say that he was going to show John? What did the angel show John? Since the answers are pretty obvious, maybe the verse that says "as a bride" needs to be reconsidered. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2 It doesn't say that new Jerusalem is "as a bride." It says that it has been made ready as a bride (is made ready), adorned for her husband. Any conclusion that contradicts what's plainly stated needs to be reconsidered, that is, if the goal is truth, which I assume it is.
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  42. Peter indicates Paul's letters as Scripture 2 Peter 3:15-16 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. KJV
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  43. Instead of being dismissive of this verse which clearly defines the bride of Christ, Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. Revelation 21:9-10 why not use it to enhance your understanding of the bride of Christ? If what you pursue is the truth, then you're going to have to let go of the teachings of men when they come in conflict with the clear statements of the Bible. Looking at the description of the holy city Jerusalem we see the following: It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Revelation 21:12-14 According to the truth revealed in Revelation 21 about the bride of Christ, we know for sure that the bride is not exclusively a new covenant reference. Are you going to reject Revelation 21's definition of the bride, or are you going to embrace it instead of the teachings of men? What say you?
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  44. It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who redefines terms. Like I stated in the OP, use biblical terms and use them the way the Bible defines them. The Bride of Christ can not be any more clearly defined than the definition that's given in Revelation 21. Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. Revelation 21:9-10 If you're not going to use biblical terms as the Bible defines them then there's really no sense in continuing in a discussion. I've pointed this out to you before. I realize that some people already have their minds made up and that nothing that I or anyone else can say will persuade them. I'm simply pointing out what the Bible teaches about tribulation, judgment and wrath for those who are willing to hear it. If you're not willing to hear it, that's up to you.
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  45. When I study scripture, I give the greatest priority to the things that are plainly stated. When an "in-depth" study arrives at a conclusion that contradicts what has been plainly stated, I will reject it. Every time.
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  46. Well you dont want to do that anyway (KJV) Jas_3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. thats not always a bad thing (KJV) Lam 3:27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth. Lam 3:28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him. Pro 17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. Well when you do i thought this verse is good one. (KJV) Pro 18:24 A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother. Deu 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. (KJV) Well maybe you are around some rough people thats how it was for me not long ago. not to me ,your trying to learn deeper things.i think that is very wise myself. (KJV) Pro 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. Sorry i rushed this a little,hope it helps some though.Agape
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  47. So if it's true the entire 'tribulation' is the wrath of God, do you realize it means that God's own hand would be murdering His martyrs? The fifth seal: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood... So God, in His wrath, killed those who held the word of God? These slain under the altar are asking God to avenge them. On whom? Are they asking for God to avenge them on God?
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  48. You have correctly identified the beginning of the time of God's judgment / wrath with this verse, however, you have extracted it from its context which is very important. The context is the opening of the sixth seal. The judgment / wrath of God begins just after the the sixth seal is opened. The sixth seal is opened after what Jesus describes as the time of great tribulation, the tribulation of those days. So, if we follow the sequencing of the seals, there is a time of great tribulation (5th seal martyrdom) which is followed by the time of the judgment / wrath of God which follows the sixth seal. Granted, it will be a difficult time. That does not of necessity make it the wrath of God. Those "descriptive" words are a conflation of wrath and tribulation. Since you've correctly identified when God's judgment / wrath begins, can you find what actually contains His wrath?
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  49. What if it is essential doctrine? Do you want people to speak to a lost person with an air of uncertainty? Or with an air of confidence and conviction? If i was seeking God i would want to hear from a person who clearly really believes in their beliefs and is confident about stating their beliefs.. That way i would know i was not hearing from a wishy washy flip flopping Lukewarm person who has no real faith in what they are talking about..
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  50. This one is a strange one.. If someone came up to me and told me in an accusatory manner that i had sinned against santa clause because i failed to leave milk and cookies out on the kitchen table for santa to have when he visited on Christmas eve i would not be getting the guilty feeling or feeling bad.. I would probably do well to hide my mirth and stop myself from giggling Why because i truly do not believe in santa... If a Hindu came up to me waving his finger at me telling me i had committed an abomination by eating beef i would not laugh but at the same time i would not feel even the slightest guilt for being a beef eater.. Now why don't atheists react in the same way to Christians who point out the standards of God to reveal to the atheist that they are a sinner needing the forgiveness of God through the LORD Jesus Christ? See to me the very fact that they feel condemned and are fighting the feelings of guilt testify to the power of the Holy Spirit that is convicting them as they are hearing the standards of God.. The fact that they are having an emotional response either guilt or hate or what ever to the conviction being given runs contrary to their stated stance of not believing that God exists.. If they did not believe in God why should they care at all about another person revealing the supposed standards of a God that does not exist.. Just as i would not be bothered at all if a person started to try and make me feel guilty for failing to leave milk and cookies for santa... Conviction of ones sins is a necessary part of the process of becoming aware of the need for forgiveness and the Redemption of the LORD Jesus Christ.. If a person is going to become a Christian they will need to be convicted before they see the need for a Redeemer.. So telling Christians to avoid convicting atheists is basically taking away one of the main needed processes of leading a person to Christ..
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