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Hi Butero, In Romans 8: 29 we are told that we `..are destined to be conformed to the image of His Son,...` And in 2 Peter 1: 4 `..you may be partakers of the divine nature..` So you see bro, we will be like Christ with His nature. He was tempted and could have chosen His own will, however He ALWAYS chose to do the Father`s will. Thus that will be us forever. Lucifer was tested but failed. The Lord was tested and chose the Father`s will. regards, Marilyn.

Brother, I just want to say I love you, but you are looking past the most important detail, the very thing that has saved you for all eternity. The difference is, Jesus had not yet come to earth. He had not yet lived out perfection. He had not yet died and rose again, claiming victory. He is your savior, my savior, and anyone else who accepts Him. Jesus did not die for Satan, He died because of Satan. And when death and sin have been conquered, there will be no more sin or evil, there will be only good. No chance of rebellion once there is only one side to the coin, only perfection. God bless

'Wherefore I also, .. after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, .... and love unto all the saints, ...... Cease not to give thanks for you, ........ making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, .. may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation .... in the knowledge of Him: ...... The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; ........ that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, .......... and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, .. according to the working of His mighty power, which He wrought in Christ, .... when He raised Him from the dead, ...... and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places, ........ Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, .......... and every name that is named, ............ not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under His feet, .. and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, .... which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.' (Ephesians 1:15-23) Hello there, The epistle of Ephesians was written to those who already knew the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord: in it they learn of the Headship of Christ over the Church which is His Body; which is the fulness of Him, that filleth all in all; and learn in it's first chapter of their standing, as members of that company, before God - in His beloved Son. Thus enlightened, this prayer is prayed, that they may go on to 'know' and 'acknowledge' the truths sought by means of this prayer. For this they would need the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, for this knowledge can only be known by revelation from above, for it is spiritually discerned. How we need to pray this prayer, and that of Ephesians 3:14-21 for ourselves and for all who have been enlightened concerning the Church of the One Body, of which Christ is the Head. Yet, there are so many, who although having been enlightened regarding their need of a Saviour, have never entered into the knowledge of their standing before God in Christ, or know of the calling, hope and inheritance of those who are members of the Church of the One Body of which Christ is the Head, let alone the hope of His calling, and of His inheritance in the saints. How we need to read God's Word, and acknowledge the change that took place in His administration of the Church in Christ, with the laying aside of Israel in unbelief (temporarily) at the end of the Acts period: which necessitated it; and the unique nature of these further epistles of Paul which contain the knowledge of the fellowship of the mystery, which had been previously hid in God (Eph. 3:9), and was made known by revelation to Paul: in order to make it known - as it's Steward: in Eph. Phil. Col. 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon. In Christ Jesus our risen and glorified, Saviour, Lord and Head. Chris

I'm so saddened in the reading of this thread, that you, Butero, being a Royal Member, could get this question so wrong, and therefore it causes me to wonder what else you don't seem to understand about God's Absolute Sovereignty, Foreknowledge, the very things that make Him God. What is being spoken of here is a Fundamental truth about why Jesus came to redeem us back into right relationship with God, because we acknowledge that we were wrong and have repented of our sinning against God, He was right, we were wrong. Consequently, our wills have come into alignment with His and as a result we have submitted to His leading us into All righteousness. Therefore we will be in one accord with HIM, JESUS and all the saints for eternity, no complaints, no evil or negative thoughts will ever reside there, because of the Finished work of Calvary. We gave our WILL to Him at the point of our salvation, so there is no taking it back in Glory, we won't even be thinking humanly again, that's what I believe, and as always, I hope this helps, God bless.

That doesn't agree with scripture, though. There is a fundamental difference in the two situations. Nowhere does the scripture say that he was created for the sole purpose of being evil. That's an inference that is made, but that inference is countered by a multitude of scriptures, which renders it invalid. God is perfectly capable of creating someone perfect, but with the ability to make a choice which would then render them imperfect, and He is also perfectly capable of taking those who have chosen to sin and making them perfect (which He has done). The scriptures teach that this is the case, as has been posted all through this thread. This is not an "either/or" situation because the scriptures themselves speak directly to it not being an "either/or" situation. Attempting to use human logic to attempt to discern God's nature and intentions is always something that should be avoided and human logic is where this sort of theory arises. We have the scriptures and in this particular case they teach highly specific things which cannot be avoided and have, again, been posted all through this thread.

Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, Heb 10:13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. The sort of perfection one receives as a result of Christ's perfect sacrifice is eternal in nature. Our (those of us being sanctified) preservation comes from Christ, not ourselves. Jud 1:1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ: 2Ti 4:18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen! 1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 1Pe 1:5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. Joh 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. There is absolutely, without a doubt, scriptural support to show that the perfection imputed to those who are saved through faith in Jesus Christ is eternally immutable. Christians are not going to "fall" in eternity because we are conformed to Christ, who is Himself absolutely perfect.

'Praise God for His unspeakable gift' - (2 Corinthians 9:15) 'And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.' (Eccl.3:13) 'Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.' (Eccl.5:19) 'Jesus answered and said unto her, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and Who it is that saith to thee, 'Give me to drink'; thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water."' (John 4:10) 'For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' (Rom. 6:23) 'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:' (Eph. 2:8) 'Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.' (2 Tim. 1:6) Praise God!

@Christine Oh yes! “That Ye May know” Him, Not with head knowledge alone, but by experience, whereby we know that He knows us, and we know that we know Him. Blessings Much love in Christ, Not me

Ok folks, this thread is a wrap. My wife and I are fully reconciled and the marriage is better than ever. A sincere thank you to all of you for the support which helped make this possible. Let this be a testimony to all: those that don’t believe in prayer, young men’s view of sex and marriage, struggling couples, anyone second guessing faith; I’ve got a story to conquer them all. Amen!

Hello there, I wish you all every blessing during this season, and in the year ahead. May God's perfect will be done in each one of us, in Christ Jesus, that His Name be glorified, and that we may be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. With love to you all, In Christ Jesus Our risen and glorified Saviour, Lord and Head. Chris Praise His Holy Name!

Can you prove that God created Lucifer with iniquity? To say so, is AGAINST the very NATURE of God! It's not rocket science ... it's simple. And because your reasoning on this very basic issue ... it's warps the rest of the reasoning you're espousing. God created everything ... and in creation He said from the beginning .. it is GOOD!

I would be hard pressed to read Satan into this verse, particularly with the context of the chapter (and those chapters before it, which themselves I doubt need explanation), but more specifically this part of this chapter. Isa 54:14 In righteousness you shall be established; You shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; And from terror, for it shall not come near you. Isa 54:15 Indeed they shall surely assemble, but not because of Me. Whoever assembles against you shall fall for your sake. Isa 54:16 "Behold, I have created the blacksmith Who blows the coals in the fire, Who brings forth an instrument for his work; And I have created the spoiler to destroy. Isa 54:17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," Says the LORD. In short, this chapter as a whole is speaking of the restoration of Israel. Verse 15 speaks to the fact that whoever comes against Israel at this point (after their restoration) will not be sent by God, and will fall for their sake, which is in stark contrast to a good chunk of the history of Israel, there having been multiple times God used others to judge. Verse 16 speaks to the fact that God creates the one who builds the weapons (the blacksmith) and the one who uses the weapons (the spoiler/destroyer/waster, depending on what version you prefer - shachath in transliterated Hebrew). Verse 17 speaks to the fact that no weapons (almost certainly an allusion to the previous verse) "formed against you shall prosper." This entire sequence (going back several chapters) is certainly worthy of about two or three textbooks worth of study. However, to answer your question, I don't think an argument can be made that this is speaking of Satan, not even if you pull it out of its local context (which there is no reason to do).

So this is my THEORY … THERE IS NOT ENOUGH BIBLICAL EVIDENCE TO MAKE A DOCTRINE OUT OF THIS THEORY … but this is my thoughts. We read in 1 Peter 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. While most people focus on the fact that angels … want to look into salvation … I want to point out a specific phrase … “they were serving not themselves but YOU!” So angels are serving us according to this verse. And so we have this unique passage in 1 Cor. 6:3 that we “are to judge angels?” So here goes my THEORY as to HOW LUCIFER could have fallen. The angels were created in times past … before the sun, moon and stars … sometime before the creation … and served God. Now my THEORY begins … Lucifer … who was serving God … finds out that He is to serve Man … and sees that Man has a simple free will situation. And thinks to himself … why should I serve man? When I can get man to give me his dominion and thus I will not serve … but I will then have dominion over man -- I can be god! At the beginning … God gave man dominion … Gen 1:26-28 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” However, at the fall we realize in Luke that man's dominion was given to Satan ... Luk 4:5 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, Luk 4:6 and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. How did Satan get this authority? Man gave it to him when Man in his free will chose to disobey God! You see Satan thought ... I can be god ... as man will serve me if I can get man to simply eat the forbidden fruit. In his mind ... I'm so grand ... and this is a piece of cake ... and now I can be god! My theory postulates that Satan convinces 1/3 of the angels ... and says ... You don't need to serve man ... man is serving me! They have fallen ... and there's no way that they can be redeemed. So if you don't want to serve man any longer ... join me! THIS IS THE ANGELS FREE WILL CHOICE. However, Satan doesn't realize that God FOREKNEW before foundation of the world ... He was already set to DIE, and REDEEM ... So even now ... Eph 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things, Eph 3:10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. Eph 3:11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, Eph 3:12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. Eph 3:13 So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory. So now the manifold wisdom of God is being revealed to the angels through His Church! Amazing passage! So the angels had their "choice" to serve man for God ... or to have man serve them ... and this was their free will choice. Adam and Eve had their free will choice at the garden. And today, every man and woman have their free will choice .. Do I believe this gospel message? Do I want to accept it or not? So this is my THEORY ... I'm not even going to defend it ... it not WORTHY of being defended ... as its entirely SPECULATION but it helps me understand how a being created in perfection could have fallen. Take it for what it is ... a THEORY.

From God's perspective, always knowing all that is knowable, He always had knowledge of the first act of opposition to Him and the effect it would have, and always had the remedy in Christ. Those who are in Christ are not going to oppose God in any way and only these are they who will populate heaven, such is the Life that Christ gives to those who abide in Him.

Hi Butero, The difference is that we have the very life of Jesus Christ within and thus a million, trillion years from now in eternity we will never sin for the life of the Son never sinned. We are in Him forever. Praise the Lord. regards, Marilyn.

So did God create evil? Obviously not! What is evil in essence ... it's the absence of good! God created all things with a choice ... a free will ... a will to choose good ... or the absence of doing good hence the word evil! Does cold exist? Yes ... what is being cold ... the absence of heat! Does evil exist? Yes ... it's the absence of God! While God foreknew ... he didn't for-choose their fates. For-knowing ... is not the same as For-choosing!

During the Catholic inquisitions, as millions of Christians we're being killed by the Catholic Jesuit Priests for apostasy, Christians were fleeing all throughout Europe. In Bohemia alone, there was an estimated 4,000,000 Christians before the Jesuit inquisition, and 10 years later only 800,000 people remained in Bohemia – all of whom were Catholic. As a young man, Count Zinzendorf opened his estate to allow believers escaping the persecution to settle. There was different fragmented groups, Bohemian Brethren, Moravian Christians, Reformed Christians and unsatisfied Catholics. After a few years, the village of Herrnhut – 300 or so individuals, came into total disarray! One of the village founders, named Christian David, got so caught up in apocalyptic fanaticism, so deep in fact that he actually referred to Zinzendorf as the “Beast of the Apocalypse”. While the estate manager of the village, Johan Andreas Rothe, Christian David termed as the “False Prophet”. Obviously the enemy had entered into the community in such a way it seemed that the village was destined for failure! At this time, Count Zinzendorf devoted himself to the full-time reconciliation of the conflict, visiting each home for prayer, and finally calling all the men of the village for an intense study of the Scriptures. The question they came to focus on was how the Scriptures described Christian life in community. These studies, combined with intense prayer, convinced many of the community that they were called to live together in love, and that the disunity and conflict they had experienced was contrary to the clear calling of Scripture. Zinzendorf’s dream was to see the differences of Herrnhut’s many traditions become secondary to a corporate unity in love. In the history of the Moravian revival, we read that: “Zinzendorf was not aiming at organizational unity and uniformity among Christians and did not desire the dissolution of particular traditions, but rather their binding together in fraternal charity, mutual respect, communication and communion within a sort of loose federation.” As the community, they learned to “agree to disagree” on certain subjects – the one thing they agreed on was the need for community in love – and this was necessary in order to fulfill the “great commission”. On August 13, 1727, he little community of Herrnhut would experience a tremendous outpouring of the Holy Spirit, likened to that of Acts 2, that would transform these factioned settlers into a unified missionary endeavor committed to reaching the unsaved around the world. It led to the “Moravian Revival” that established a prayer meeting that would last around the clock for over 100 years! That day, members of the community left church and described it as "hardly knowing whether they belonged to earth or had already gone to Heaven”. And I quote, "We saw the hand of God and his wonders, and we were all under the cloud of our fathers baptized with their Spirit. The Holy Ghost came upon us and in those days great signs and wonders took place in our midst. From that time scarcely did we beheld His almighty workings amongst us. A great hunger after the Word of God took possession of us so that we had to have three services every day. Everyone desired above everything else that the Holy Spirit might have full control. Self-love and selfwill as well as disobedience disappeared and an overwhelming flood of grace swept us all out into the great ocean of Divine Love." Years later, Zinzendorf spoke of the event, and said, "We needed to come to the communion with a sense of the loving nearness of the Savior. This was the great comfort which has made this day a generation ago to be a festival, because on this day twenty-seven years ago the Congregation of Herrnhut, assembled for communion (at the Berthelsdorf church) were all dissatisfied with themselves. They had quit judging each other because they had become convinced, each one, of his lack of worth in the sight of God and each felt himself at this communion to be in view of the noble countenance of the Savior. What changed this community was a introspection of their lives in the light of Almighty God – a devotion to each other in spite of their differences – and a passion for the commission that God gave them! The Herrnhut revival was accompanied by such a marked demonstration of power and unity that it is referred to as a repetition of the biblical Pentecost. John Greenfield, a Moravian historian, explains, “the spiritual experience of the Moravian Brethren bear a striking resemblance to the Pentecostal power and results in the days of the Apostles. The company of believers both at Jerusalem and Herrnhut numbered less than three hundred souls. Both congregations were humanly speaking totally devoid of worldly influence, wisdom, power and wealth. On both of these small and weak congregations God poured out His Holy Spirit and endued them with power from on high. At once these believers, naturally timid and fearful, were transformed into flaming evangelists. Supernatural knowledge and power seemed to possess them.” It wasn't a huge number of people that led the movement – it was a people determined to seek God! They came away with the slogan -- IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS - LIBERTY, BUT IN ALL THINGS -- LOVE! The revival created such an urgency for evangelism that German historian of Protestant missions, Gustav Warneck testified, “This small Church in twenty years called into being more missions than the whole Evangelical Church has done in two centuries.” That's what happens when the people of God – seek the power of God! I want to introduce another Pentecost moment, that took place 12 years after the initial outpouring in Germany. 60 Moravians, along with seven Oxford Methodists – which included John and Charles Wesley, the great revivalist George Whitfield, along with several ministers of the Church of England gathered together on New Years' day in 1739. They gathered at a place called “Fetter Lane” for an event called “The Moravian Love Feast”. That night the power of God fell! As they prayed in the New Year, John Wesley wrote, “About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, insomuch that many cried for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground. As soon as we were recovered a little from that awe and amazement at the presence of His Majesty, we broke out with one voice "We praise Thee, O God; we acknowledge Thee to be the Lord!” We know of the Wesleyan revivals and the revivals of George Whitfield. It was connected to a group of men – of different denominations – gathering together in love – despite their differences – and the power of God fell! D.L. Moody in one of his last sermons in Boston, his spiritual birthplace, spoke thus of the Holy Spirit: "See how He came on the day of Pentecost! It is not carnal to pray that He may come again and that the place may be shaken. I believe Pentecost was but a specimen day. I think the Church has made this woeful mistake that Pentecost was a miracle never to be repeated. I have thought too that Pentecost was a miracle that is not to be repeated. I believe now if we looked on Pentecost as a specimen day and began to pray, we should have the old Pentecostal fire here in Boston." It's not such a strange thing that the outpouring of the Spirit at Shavuout that took place 2000 years ago should happen again and again and again. There is nothing in the Brit Hadasha to indicate that this was to be the one and only fulfillment of this promise. On the contrary we read in the book of Acts of many outpourings of the Holy Spirit, as in Samaria (8:14-17) as in Ephesus (19:1-7) and even in the case of the Gentiles (10:44-46). The baptism of fire consumed them – and it was for a purpose – to fulfill the great commission in POWER! As we read in the days of Elijah, I believe it gives us a blueprint of how to see the fire of God is to be poured out! In 1 Kings 18, how Ahab and Jezebel hunted down the prophets of God, and killed them. This led to a serious confrontation between Elijah and Ahab. We read in 1 Kings 18:17-18 17 Then it happened, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said to him, "Is that you, O troubler of Israel?" 18 And he answered, "I have not troubled Israel, but you and your father's house have, in that you have forsaken the commandments of the Lord and have followed the Baals. The first thing that Elijah does is confront the sin of Ahab! If we truly want to lead a life of revival, we too, must confront our own sins! Next we read, 19 Now therefore, send and gather all Israel to me on Mount Carmel, the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal, and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table." 20 So Ahab sent for all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together on Mount Carmel. 21 And Elijah came to all the people, and said, "How long will you falter between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him." But the people answered him not a word. Now Elijah confronts the children of Israel and forces them to make a commitment! If we choose the false gods of this world – revival will never come! God demanded pure worship! Pure commitment to his purposes! And we have to ask ourselves what is the true purpose of God? It's the redemption of mankind! That's the reason His Son came – and we too must come to a place – to a place where our commitment are to fulfill His purposes! As you know the story, the prophets of baal pleaded with their false god, cutting themselves, as blood is gushing out of their bodies, Elijah mocks their false god! 37 Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that You are the Lord God, and that You have turned their hearts back to You again." 38 Then the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench. 39 Now when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, "The Lord, He is God! The Lord, He is God!" Now the fire of God comes down in such a way, it turns the hearts of the people back to God! May the fire of God fall upon us so heavily that the hearts of Israel turn back to Him! Oh we need the fire of God in our lives! We read about another time when the fire of God is poured out, in 2 Chronicles 7 as Solomon dedicated the temple. 1 When Solomon had finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the temple. 2 And the priests could not enter the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord's house. The fire of God fell so heavily – the priests couldn't even enter the Temple! 3 When all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord on the temple, they bowed their faces to the ground on the pavement, and worshiped and praised the Lord, saying: "For He is good, For His mercy endures forever." The fire of God created a reaction! – it created an atmosphere of revival – as they fell on their faces and worshiped and praised God! 4Then the king and all the people offered sacrifices before the Lord. 5 King Solomon offered a sacrifice of twenty-two thousand bulls and one hundred and twenty thousand sheep. So the king and all the people dedicated the house of God. The blood sacrifice was critical to the worship! Without the blood – there was no sacrifice! We're not talking about some small sacrifice – but 22,000 bulls and 120,000 sheep! That's a lot of blood! And to think – we're covered by the blood of Yeshua! 6 And the priests attended to their services; the Levites also with instruments of the music of the Lord, which King David had made to praise the Lord, saying, "For His mercy endures forever," whenever David offered praise by their ministry. The priests sounded trumpets opposite them, while all Israel stood. 7 Furthermore Solomon consecrated the middle of the court that was in front of the house of the Lord; for there he offered burnt offerings and the fat of the peace offerings, because the bronze altar which Solomon had made was not able to receive the burnt offerings, the grain offerings, and the fat. In connection with the fire of God – was the worship of God! Hebrews 13: 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. 15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. Now God knew that His Spirit would not always stay with men – for God knows the heart of men! So He gave Solomon a formula for revival! 12 Then the Lord appeared to Solomon by night, and said to him: "I have heard your prayer, and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice. 13 When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, 14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. It's an if – then statement! It's connected to their economy! The economy of Israel was based on farming! So he talks about a RAIN – LOCUSTS – PESTILENCES – all of which are afflictions! The commandment is for God's people! To qualify, you need to be a child of God! It begins with humbling themselves – a crying out to God on their knees! Secondly it begins with pray and seeking God's face! We're only as close to God as we want to be! Thirdly, it's a call to repentance – not judging ourselves in the light of others – but comparing ourselves to a holy and awesome God – and in doing so – we'll come to the radical conclusion of how desperately we need Him! How desperately we need Yeshua – and his cleaning blood! When we fall on our faces – crying out to God – praying and pleading with God – seeking His holiness – repenting and turning to Him wholeheartly – Then God will answer our pleas! He will answer from heaven – he will forgive our sin! He will heal! This same Hebrew word is used in Psalm 107:19-22 19 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble, And He saved them out of their distresses. 20 He sent His word and healed them, And delivered them from their destructions. 21 Oh, that men would give thanks to the Lord for His goodness, And for His wonderful works to the children of men! 22Let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, And declare His works with rejoicing Why is this so important for us today? If you continue reading the passage in 2 Chronicles, 15 Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to prayer made in this place. 16 For now I have chosen and sanctified this house, that My name may be there forever; and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. 17 As for you, if you walk before Me as your father David walked, and do according to all that I have commanded you, and if you keep My statutes and My judgments, 18 then I will establish the throne of your kingdom, as I covenanted with David your father, saying, 'You shall not fail to have a man as ruler in Israel.' 19 "But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods, and worship them, 20 then I will uproot them from My land which I have given them; and this house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight, and will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples. 21 And as for this house, which is exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and say, 'Why has the Lord done thus to this land and this house?' 22 Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this calamity on them.' " Notice what happens – when the KING rejects God – and rejects His ways? I will “uproot them” from the land! I will make a people a “proverb and a byword” amongst all people! And people will pass by and be “astonished” and say, “Why has the Lord done this?” Because the KING led the people forsaking the God of their fathers – and for this reason God has brought calamity on the people! We live in amazing times, and we'll see with our own eyes the collapse of superpowers in the hands of an angry God if it continues down the path its chosen for itself. We all see the need for revival across the world! However, I believe our revival in this land – will bring a blessing – across the world! As the Jewish people see their Messiah – the fresh blessing is poured out. As Peter says in Acts 3:12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. The times of refreshing – in Greek – FRESH BREATH – or a fresh outpouring of His Ruach – is connected to the times of the RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS! The restoration of mankind to Himself! The restoration of this nation to Himself! All these things are connected – and we're in the middle of it all! Let's learn a lesson from the Moravians! Let's learn to “agree to disagree” in love – knowing there's a deeper purpose! My wife and I disagree on a great many things! Soon I believe that she'll realize that I'm right – but until then – we agree to disagree on things. We love each other – and we're joined for a united purpose! The enemy loves to infiltrate and bring division – even using the very Word of God to bring division. Remember how the enemy had so infiltrated the small community that they started calling leaders the “beast of the apocalypse” and the “false prophet”. Amazing when you think about it! But something happened! They unified – realizing there's a bigger purpose – and realizing what it truly means to live together in love! Amazing how the Scriptures say that Love covers a multitude of sins! The Moravian revival took place nearly 300 years ago – and we're still talking about it! Perhaps the saints of God will retell of our stories hundreds of years later. Perhaps they'll tell the stories of how a few saints of God gathered on this Forum board -- – where they learned to put aside their differences – for one united purpose – to see the Son of God – the Messiah of Israel glorified that transformed the nation back to God! Perhaps they write the stories how the saints – Despite the persecutions – despite the obstacles – they persevered – they unified for a purpose – they learned to overcome by the “blood of the Lamb” and they loved not their lives unto the death! They learned to overcome all things by LOVE! May we fulfill our calling in these days – to do something greater than we ever thought was possible!

In a recent conversation, the topic of God's will came up, and I was asked for my thoughts after posting a segment of this chapter. I was unable to respond before the thread was locked, but after talking with George and making sure I wasn't stepping on any toes, I would like to address the question here. @Cletus @Butero Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? My thought process begins with Paul's question regarding injustice. For there to be justice or injustice, there must be evidence that is weighed to reach either conclusion. This is where God's foreknowledge enters the picture. When we consider that God not only knows what we do or say, but what we think, and what is truly in a person's heart, then the picture becomes less fuzzy. God's elect, are chosen on what basis? In scripture, the elect are often referred to as the Bride. So we can look to the scriptures regarding God's definition of marriage, and what His expectations are for both the husband and the wife. Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. Jesus has perfectly filled the role of the husband, and in order for anyone to qualify as one of the elect, they must fulfill the role of the wife. Submission to God is the key to all of this. God knows each person, and He knows who has the capacity to submit, and who does not. Submission is one of those topics that draws two responses, agreement, or withdrawal. As we speak, this world is full of people who object just to the mere mention of this word, and will argue tooth and nail against this biblical concept which not only applies to everyday life for families, but more importantly to our relationship with the Lord. It is not open to debate, it is God's will. If the idea of submission offends you, then you have some serious issues to work through with God, because He requires it. God is looking for a faithful bride, one that will love Him as He deserves to be loved. He chooses those who have the capacity and heart to love Him, this is His elect. God does not create people to destroy them, people destroy themselves because they love themselves more than they love God, and for this reason they will not relinquish the illusion of control and submit to God. Notice what is said in verse 22 from Romans 9. Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, God has endured with much patience, what does that mean to you? To me, it is an illustration of what is said elsewhere in scripture, that God wants none to perish, so He is patient with all, but not all will love Him in return. They are vessels of wrath because of their rejection, and they were not created for destruction, they are prepared for it by their own actions. This is summarized in scripture as well. Romans 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. Romans 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. These excerpts from Romans 1 display the difference in God creating someone for destruction, or allowing someone the freewill to destroy themselves. They do so because they lack the capacity to truly love anyone other than themselves and their fleshly desires. So God gives them over to their desires, and they prepare themselves for destruction. What more can God do to present Himself as the perfect husband than what He has already done? The answer is nothing. This verse sums it up best I think. Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. God bless

'Now when Jacob saw that there was corn in Egypt, Jacob said unto his sons, .. "Why do ye look one upon another?" And he said, .. "Behold, I have heard that there is corn in Egypt: .... get you down thither, and buy for us from thence; ...... that we may live, and not die." And Joseph's ten brethren went down to buy corn in Egypt. .. But Benjamin, Joseph's brother, Jacob sent not with his brethren; .... for he said, "Lest peradventure mischief befall him."' (Genesis 42:1-4) Praise God!

If one does not believe, God is not obligated to prove anything, and He won't. Pharisees wanted proof. Jesus said it a perverse generation the seeks a sign and none will be given it. Just as one or two bro have already said when one chooses to believe by faith from his heart God will then and only then make Himself real to you. I remember well that night I made my choice. Today I may not be best and it is not about being best I can hold my own Because the Lord Will not stop giving us more truth if we truly desire to have it. But he will reveal as much as we are able to receive. I have wanted more truth for thirty five yeas. He said when judged think not what you will say for I will give to you at the moment its needed. This is how it has been when I needed. This is an absolute truth. We are time tested. If the seed in you is deep you just may remember this one day. If your unbelieve holds you back you gain nothing. I would not want to be in that mans shoes.

So my line of reasoning is in line with God's character -- his Goodness, His Love, His Righteousness! I truly believe that God wrote EVERYONE's NAME in the BOOK OF LIFE from the beginning, in line with His very character and their free-will choices determine whether or not they are BLOTTED OUT! My initial position comes from a POSITION that God is PURE, HOLY and RIGHTEOUS! @Butero Your position begins with the understanding that God CREATED iniquity, and thus EVERY evil -- is attributable to God -- seriously -- this is what you are advocating. You are going to STAND BEFORE GOD -- with this understanding? Seriously? This is why ... from the beginning MISUNDERSTANDING of who God is ... has warped the rest of your theological foundations.

Hi Retro Do you believe perhaps that second coming is here: Rev. 14:15- And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. AND here: Rev. 19:1- And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: That's how I see it. It is shown more than once.

It's all skewed together from a wrong premise. God did NOT CHOOSE to CREATE JUDAS to betray the Lord. It's a FLAWED premise from the beginning ... The proper understanding is ... that EVERYONE is written in the Lamb's book of life ... and then ... in their FREE WILL CHOICE ... their decisions cause their names to be blotted out! Because you believe that GOD CREATED EVIL ... CREATED INIQUITY ... it's flawed from the very beginning -- thus affects your understanding of the very character of God.

Since we're not talking about OSAS ... why do you bring this up? The very PREMISE of who God is ... His Holiness, His Righteousness, His Love -- all his attributes which are PERFECT -- suddenly gets thrown out the window when you BELIEVE that GOD CREATED INIQUITY! And from this flawed starting point ... warps your entire theological understanding ... I continue to press you on this point, because it's BASIC -- elementary almost ... you want to get to the deeper things of God ... it must begin from a proper understanding of WHO GOD IS! Otherwise ... it's all skewed ... If I build a house on a SLANTED foundation ... the house will be SLANTED! This very basic foundational point ... has caused a slanted view of the rest of your understandings ... this is why it's important!

I'm reading through this thread that you had with Shiloh and your reasoning that God "created iniquity" really does warp your entire theological process. Because your argument from the beginning is flawed ... it shapes your misunderstandings ... and thus leads you to incorrect conclusions.

God allows ... to bring forth his plan of restoration. Look at Job ... God allowed ... in order to bring a greater glory for Job. Again, because the very basic premise that God "created" iniquity ... is against the very nature of a Holy, Perfect, and Righteous God! Just because you can't comprehend "Free Will" ... you're espousing to God ... evil. Don't you see how ludicrous that is?

Gays need to stop finding ways to rationalize and excuse their behavior to make it acceptable to the world.In spite of the great inroads they have made in convincing the Bible- ignorant, they are not fooling those who know the Bible and they sure ain’t changing God’s mind.Go declares it sin,and as we all know, He goes farther to say that it is an “ abomination”.So what is the cure? Is it any different for them than it is for an agnostic ,drunken, skirt - chaser ( not me, of course!)How about the rest of you sinners out there?Personally, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and showed me that I was a horrible , hopeless sinner that needed a Saviour.All of my rationalizations and excuses vanished.I was laid bare.God showed me the horror of my lost condition.I was driven to the same conclusion as the Publican who was left with only this....”God have mercy on me, a sinner”. After that , once I had turned to God , things just kinda fell in place .Gays need to stop rationalizing their sinful ways and pray that God will give them a new heart.A contrite heart that is ready to receive the Gospel with its Power to save.Straights and gays.

Because the Bible says you're wrong! God did not create iniquity in Lucifer. Read the Scriptures once again ... Deu 32:4 “The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he. Psalm 92:15 to declare that the Lord is upright; he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him. To say ... that God created iniquity in Lucifer ... is AGAINST the very CHARACTER of GOD! And the Scriptures ARE CLEAR ... Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in all thy ways from the day that thou wast created, until iniquity was found in thee. We believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God. When we read the Bible says ... that God created Lucifer PERFECT in all his ways. Then its obvious that ... ... created with hidden iniquity ... is against the very text of the Bible. It's clear as day! You can't get clearer ... You're trying to rationalize with a finite human mind ... Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

Be sure to properly evaluate what you define as "selflessly serving Christ..." If he called you to live like Gandhi or something, to be fair, you should discuss this with your wife. She may not want to live like she's married to Gandhi. Sometimes in our zeal to serve Christ we imagine more is required of us than Christ actually does. It doesn't make him love you any more. It doesn't make your standing with him any greater. It doesn't make him proud of you. He already knows the real you and the real everybody... I believe it is expected of married people to honor their commitment to their spouse which includes what the Gandhis would call worldly goods. Just saying.

SISTER YOU LOVED . Keep on encouraging with those wonderous reminders .

Hi Hazard I will go over this more. I liked the phrase about not having an "omnibody", but I have seen some bad things done with the idea of a "spirit body".

That's where submission to the will of God is imperative to the inheritance of Eternal Life. Anyone who shrugs this off in this life forfeits the inheritance, but submitting completely to God's control insures one will not fall away, not in this life or the Life to come. God always knows all that is knowable and there is nothing knowable that God doesn't always know - He always knows, has known, and will know those who are His own, and He always knows, has known, and will know those who are of the Devil. When Lucifer the light-bearer of God became Satan the adversary of God from the beginning of Creation it was of his own volition, but not unforeseen by God who has always been aware of the evil polarity His supreme goodness would elicit. Joh 8:44 (44) You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

According to Jesus. How much faith will move a mountian?

... right now, we're in the midst of a fallen world ... and even now the Bible talks of the accuser of the brethren that relentlessly ... but soon enough all will be cast into the lake of fire! The real issue is ... in this conversation ... the thought that God created iniquity! This is impossible for Him to create iniquity based on His very character! Have we gotten past this first point? Because there's no sense "hypothesizing" scenarios -- if you haven't gotten cornerstone issue of the flaw dealt with. @Butero It's a very simple question ... Do you still believe God created iniquity in Lucifer? Or have we changed our mind based on Scripture?

Judgment. Judgment. Judgment. What happened to Lucifer/Satan? He was judged. What will happen to all flesh? It will be judged. Only those who meet God's criteria for eternal life, which is by definition free of opposition to Him, will be included in the Bride.

Hi Butero, I remember discussing this exact proposition a few years ago. The proposition is that opposition to the will of God is always possible, whether on earth or in heaven, whether in this temporal existence or in eternity. Fortunately we have a very good Scripture to assure us that from Judgment Day no-one in heaven will oppose God. Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Also, it appears from Scriptures in their consistency regarding Lucifer that his rebellion occurred after the six days of Creation, and that prior to this rebellion he was perfect, as indeed was all of God's Creation. That he set himself up to usurp God's authority is known by his dialogue with Eve -"hast God said?" Eze 28:11-15 (11) Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, (12) Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. (13) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. (14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. (15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

We have to start from this very first point ... because it's the very basis of your thought process. It's the foundation stone of your logic ... which is flawed ... thus your entire reasoning process will be flawed.

Knowing what they will do, and choosing that they do it are two different things. Indeed, Judas is a great example to look at in this regard. Consider this, if you were in his place, and had walked with Jesus, learned from Him directly, and had been loved by Him in the flesh, would you have betrayed Him? Judas made his own choice because that was what was in his heart, paid in silver. If someone offered you a billion dollars tomorrow to betray Jesus, would you agree to it? What made Pharaoh the way he was? Was it God, or did it have to do with his corruption via power? Did Pharaoh not believe himself to be a god? God allowed Pharaoh to rise up, so that His power could be shown to the world. What a person does with wicked intentions, God can use to His glory, and for His purposes. We know that scripture tells us, each world leader rises up according to God's will and perfect plan. Historically we can look back and see the rise of Hitler to power, and what came as a result of the holocaust, a nation reborn. They make their own choices, exactly. That does not mean that God has not endured them patiently. What we do not know, are what efforts, and how many attempts God makes to reach an individual before He gives them over to their depravity. God bless

God has given FREE-WILL ... He doesn't CHOOSE your path ... He gives you the opportunity to CHOOSE! Joshua 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. Eze 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. Eze 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Eze 28:17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. Eze 28:18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. Eze 28:19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever.”

How can God create Lucifer with iniquity. This is a very flawed understanding of God. In Him there is NO DARKNESS! To say that He created Lucifer with iniquity ... is to say He created Lucifer to sin. This is very un-biblical. 1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

I've been to Jerusalem hundreds of times since I've been living in Israel for the past 15+ years. The problem with speculative locations ... is that they are speculative. If you think about it ... Doesn't Satan know where the Temple would have been? If so, wouldn't he want to "desecrate it" and try to show that he is in control? So you go to where the "Holy of Holies" probably stood ... and you find ... on top of the Mosque on the Temple Mount ... inscriptions ... such as God has no son ... The true religion with God is Islam ... If you look outside the Eastern Gate, the Golden Gate ... there is a Islamic graveyard along the wall ... why? To try to prevent a Jewish Messiah from walking in the walled up gate ... as any rabbi wouldn't be able to walk through a graveyard without being defiled. As you really study out the site, you'll be blown away as to the steps taken to try and "defile" and "prevent" any fulfillment of prophecy. Also, you'll discover that they built a mosque under the Temple Mount ... the largest in the world ...as they dug it out ... they disposed of the dirt and they are still excavating the soil in search of Temple relics. https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/108180/rare-jewish-coins-found-in-temple-mount-excavation/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/temple-mount-project-yields-treasure-but-unearths-conflict/ God bless you in your search ... Your brother in the Lord with much agape love, George

That bee might put a sting in you , but oh let us enjoy the HONEY correction always brings . You throw those hands up and praise the LORD . And no matter what the Vatican and others may say about you , n the days ahead , YOU KNOW I LOVE YA SISTER . Now praise the LORD .

The Scripture I quoted says exactly that! Luke 2:21, And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. Luke 2:21, And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

How did the shepherds learn of Christ's birth? A. They saw a new star in the sky B. An angel appeared to them C. The little drummer boy told them

Do you see the City of David -- how narrow it is? Do you see how the Temple Mount dwarfs almost the entire city of David? Do you see how Antonio's Fortress is the width of the city of David -- if it's the width of the city - how can it be in the "corner' of the Temple? Where you see Herod's Fortress -- this is where a large portion of the Roman soldiers would have been quartered -- next to Herod's palace.

Honestly, this is way too small an area for it to be built in the City of David. I wish I could show you an decent size map. 1st argument these people use is in reference to the need for a water supply for the sacrifices. First we know that the Temple was built on a threshing floor -- this is where you would separate wheat from the chaff -- so you would do this FAR away from your water supply as it would fill your water supply full of trash! This is why it's not connected to the Gishon Spring and it wouldn't have been close to it! It would have contaminated the water supply with tiny bits of wheat throughout your drinking water! The Water for the sacrifices came from "Solomon's Pools" and we know now about an aqueduct system that connected the system in 2015. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon's_Pools https://www.livescience.com/50951-ancient-jerusalem-aqueduct-uncovered.html Another argument they use -- the Western wall can't be the Temple wall. With this I agree, as it's probably a retaining wall for a former Roman garrison built from the rocks that were separated in 70AD as the Roman soldiers were trying to get the gold from between the rocks. The argument that the Fortress of Antonia was too small is not really valid as Jospeheus gives the exact location of the fortess and how it oversaw the entire Temple complex. And archaeologists now believe that the the majority of the legions were stationed on the Western Hill near Herod's Palace, rather than the Antonia Fortress -- which is on the opposite side of the city near the Jaffa Gate. Sorry to burst the bubble ... but I researched all of this when it first came out ... and did my own research and it doesn't really fit the Biblical narrative, nor the historical narrative.

Pascal's wager. I have mixed feelings about the subject. I am currently of the thinking that we don't have direct control over what we will believe, a view called doxastic voluntarism. This would mean that even if you offered me $1,000,000 to believe there was an elephant standing in my office, sooner or later I would demonstrate that I don't actually believe it even though I were motivated to believe that it was true. I think how we might approach the Bible's truth claims is more like how we approach historical claims. Do we think Abe Lincoln did x and said y? There are several versions of the Gettysburg Address and historians aren't certain which, if any is correct. But we don't reject that historians know the gist of what was said. Nor do we doubt the existence of Abe, or that he was POTUS. So too we can engage the facts in the Bible pertaining say the claim that Christ existed, he died on a cross, was risen, and that his followers passed on his teaching. The reliability of the gospels has been argued by scholars for over 50 years making the following points: five reasons why I think we ought to assume that the gospels are reliable until proven wrong: 1. There was insufficient time for legendary influences to expunge the historical facts. The interval of time between the events themselves and recording of them in the gospels is too short to have allowed the memory of what had or had not actually happened to be erased. 2. The gospels are not analogous to folk tales or contemporary "urban legends." Tales like those of Paul Bunyan and Pecos Bill or contemporary urban legends like the "vanishing hitchhiker" rarely concern actual historical individuals and are thus not analogous to the gospel narratives. 3. The Jewish transmission of sacred traditions was highly developed and reliable. In an oral culture like that of first century Palestine the ability to memorize and retain large tracts of oral tradition was a highly prized and highly developed skill. From the earliest age children in the home, elementary school, and the synagogue were taught to memorize faithfully sacred tradition. The disciples would have exercised similar care with the teachings of Jesus. 4. There were significant restraints on the embellishment of traditions about Jesus, such as the presence of eyewitnesses and the apostles’ supervision. Since those who had seen and heard Jesus continued to live and the tradition about Jesus remained under the supervision of the apostles, these factors would act as a natural check on tendencies to elaborate the facts in a direction contrary to that preserved by those who had known Jesus. 5. The Gospel writers have a proven track record of historical reliability. for more see:https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/scholarly-writings/historical-jesus/rediscovering-the-historical-jesus-the-evidence-for-jesus/ It seems that over time one can acquire a trust in the gospel accounts that is sufficient to then support a handful of facts about Jesus, his death and resurrection. Further one can intuit the veracity of Jesus' followers since most signed their testimonies in their own blood rather than admit to a hoax. Further an atheist can examine: Cosmological arguments Teleological arguments Transcendent arguments Moral arguments In favor of God's existence. Finally, all can engage in the testimonies of the changed lives of Christians. The HS is doing the drawing, convicting, and some mysterious cognitive dissonance destruction that we can't begin to analyze. But I find this to be more helpful than the Pascal's wager approach, in fact pensees is a work of apologetics with a nod to "If all else fails, there is this idea of a wager..." so even Pascal didn't suggest the method as anything other than a hail mary." Or so I have been led to believe.

Be patient, lead by example, and limit but don't eliminate her spending on unnecessary things. But I don't know what your idea of earthly treasures is or what hers are. If you are thinking of aesthetic existence with the bare minimum for survival, there are some comforts that a woman appreciates. If you are meeting her emotional and spiritual needs she may not value those empty things as much. My husband made me feel treasured and would do most anything for me and to protect me. He gave me a good deal of responsibility and appreciated that my talents complemented his own, making me a helper. He prayed aloud with me and for me each night. This meant more to me than words can express. He was my prayer partner. Eph 5:25 ESV Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 1Pe 3:7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered. Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.

1. Both were conceived of a virgin. According to Egyptologists, the mythology of Isis/ Horus/ Osiris is clear that Isis restored the dead Osiris to life so that he could impregnate her. Hardly a virgin birth. Achy (who originally came up with this idea of Horus having a virgin birth) explains his reasoning: "Isis is the constellation of Virgo the Virgin, as well as the Moon, which becomes a 'virgin' during when it is new. The sun god - in this case, Horus - is born of this Virgin goddess." This alludes to a document from the 6th century AD and not from the mythology of Horus. Egyptians did not have the same constellations we have today. 2. Both were the “only begotten son” of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh) The phrase “only begotten son” is not used in Egyptian mythology. Being a sole child is hardly unusual in mythology of any kind. The earliest forms of the Horus myth claim that he is one of 5 children. 3. Horus’s mother was Meri, Jesus’s mother was Mary. Horus’ mother is Isis. There is no such person/ god within Egyptian mythology with the name Meri. There is a goddess of song and rejoicing, a minor goddess, with the name Meret. She had no part in the story of Horus. The only place I found a name of Meri associated with Isis, or at all, is on atheist sites that have no backing to their claim of this name. 4. Horus’s foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus’s foster father was Joseph. Horus’ uncle was called Set or Seth. No one has ever used the name Seph or Jo-seph. Another false construct. 5. Both foster fathers were of royal descent. Most gods of Egypt have royal descent. The pharaohs were considered gods themselves. This is not unique to Horus.