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How about This! is going. Proverbs 14:15 Solid Proof The Rapture Theory is False I am not someone who likes to beat around the bush all day. Why waste the time? If there is a bird in that bush, reach in there and nab that rascal! As a researcher and a writer I prefer means and methods which get right at the heart of a matter. And I have a couple of questions I like to present to those who promote the pre-trib rapture theory which do exactly that. I find these two questions thought provoking and enlightening, but amazingly I have had great trouble finding a rapture theorist who will address these two questions in an honest and strait-forward manner. I am either given as answers ‘straw-man’ arguments, which have nothing to do with my questions, or a sad rerun of ‘Discredit the message by discrediting the messenger’ (if I can find fault with you I can justify ignoring what you have to say). I can show where all my beliefs about the Return of Christ are plainly and clearly stated in the Bible. The rapture theorist (since it is an ‘implicit’ doctrine) cannot do so, and this lack of biblical support often becomes a great frustration to them. Let me pose these two questions to you, and ask you for an answer that is not an end-run around the question: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1Thessalonians 5:21 I see questions of this nature as being of vital importance to a proper understanding of eschatology. They cause a person to engage in the type of critical reasoning that cuts through the fog of Scripture twisting, unsupported statements, and outright lies that false teachings are cloaked in. Here are the two questions: QUESTION #1 Rapture theorists teach that the Coming of Christ for the Church, and our gathering together unto him, is ‘imminent’ (likely to happen at any second). This concept is a pillar of the pre-trib rapture theory, and without it the theory collapses. They claim the Apostle Paul believed this doctrine of ‘the Imminent Return’ because it was revealed to him by God, that he taught this concept to his followers, and wrote his letters (that we know as Scripture) with this notion presented in them. My first question is this: Exactly when did the Coming of Christ and the Resurrection / Catching-away BECOME imminent? There had to be a time when it was not imminent (before the Cross for example) and then there had to have come a moment when it was now imminent. Exactly when was that moment; when did the rapture BECOME imminent? (If you would like you can post an answer in the comment area below, but please NO straw-man (irrelevant issue) arguments that distract from the subject at hand. I ask that you would directly answer the question.) MY ANSWER: Let me tell you why the pre-trib rapture theorist will not, and in fact cannot, directly address that question. It is because the truthful answer is catastrophic to their doctrine. The truth is that the Return of Christ for the Church could not have been imminent in the days of the early Church, could not have been imminent down through the centuries, could not be imminent today, and will not be imminent until immediately before it actually happens. This is easily provable by examining the Scriptures themselves. THE PROOF There are actually quite a number of prophesies that prohibited the Resurrection / Catching-away from being imminent in the days of the early Church. Let’s first look at just one major road block to this concept: the prophesied death of Peter by being martyred as an old man. The Lord Jesus himself gave this prophesy (John 21:18). It is an irrefutable truism. Historical writings give us a pretty good idea as to not only when Peter died, but also when Paul died. Smith’s Bible Dictionary says, “According to the early writers, he (Peter) died at or about the same time with Paul, and in the Neronian persecution, A.D. 67 or 68. All agree that he (Peter) was crucified.” From this information so far we can know the following to be absolutely true: Jesus said Peter would die as an old man, therefor the Resurrection / Catching-away could NOT happen until this prophesy was fulfilled. Paul died about the same time as Peter. This means the Resurrection / Catching away was NOT imminent during the span of Paul’s ministry to the Body of Christ, and therefor God did NOT reveal to him any such thing! It was not a possibility until the death of Peter! Paul would NOT (under the unction of the Holy Spirit) have taught as doctrine to his followers something that could not possibly happen, nor would he have included this concept in his writings to them. The Scriptures were penned by God himself using holy men as vessels. God does not lie, nor does his Word! It would have been a lie to teach and promote as imminent something NOT possible in his lifetime, amd the Holy Spirit would not have guided Paul to state a falsehood in his writings to the Church! There are many other prophetic statements standing in the way of an imminent Return that had to be fulfilled first, and many that still need fulfillment (they are scattered throughout the pages of the Bible). For the sake of time and space let’s look at the last one (as far as I can tell) to be fulfilled before the Resurrection of the Just and our gathering together unto our Lord could occur. Many say Job is the oldest of the Biblical writings. Even he prophesied of the Resurrection of the Dead. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God (Job 19:26). I have heard many a pre-trib rapture teacher quote that verse from Job, but never this passage: But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:10-12 This unspeakable event in which the heavens go away is spoken of in nearly twenty different places in the Bible yet rarely preached on. Job prophesied this event would PRECEDE our Resurrection! According to the prophesies of the Bible the Resurrection / Catching-away could not become imminent until after the heavens vanish. A thorough look at all the passages detailing this event in the heavens show it to happen either just before, or in conjunction with, the Second Coming of Christ right after the tribulation. CONCLUSION: Thus we see the doctrine of the ‘Imminent Return’ is a provable lie. To say God revealed to Paul the rapture was ‘imminent’ is a lie! To say the Apostle Paul believed this doctrine is a lie. To say Paul taught this doctrine to his followers is a lie. To say Paul wrote his letters that we know as Scripture with this notion presented in them is a lie. To say the Coming of Christ for the Church has been imminent for two thousand years is a lie. To say the Coming of Christ for the Church is now imminent is a lie. The Return of Jesus to catch us away will not be imminent until ALL prophesies that prevent it are fulfilled. The doctrine of the ‘Imminent Return’ is not from the Bible; The Bible refutes such a notion. QUESTION #2. Please pay particular attention to the wording of the following verses. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Greek – Parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Thessalonians 2:1 When Paul wrote to the Church at Thessalonica he earnestly urged them to consider his words about the Return of Jesus and our gathering together unto him; as I also urge you here and now. This second question addresses an aspect of the Coming of Christ and our rising to meet him. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming (Greek – Parousia). 24 Then cometh the end… 1Corinthians 15:22-24 Some try and split up the Resurrection of the Just into a number of events taking place over a period of time. But here the Bible plainly nails it down to one event taking place at one time. We are given here the order of the Resurrection. Christ first, then all they which are his at his Coming / Parousia. First the Head – then the Body. The Resurrection of the Just and our gathering together unto Christ take place at his Coming / Parousia. Plainly stated! And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (Greek – Parousia): 2Thessalonians 2:8 This verse speaks of the destruction of the Antichrist at the end of his 42 month reign of terror. This brings us to my second question (please take a moment and earnestly consider this): How could the Coming /Parousia (and our gathering unto Jesus) destroy Antichrist at the end of his 42 month reign if the Coming /Parousia (and our gathering unto Jesus) happens before the tribulation? How is this possible? (Again you are welcome to answer this question in the comment section below, but PLEASE do not insult my intelligence (or give others an unfavorable impression of yours) by stating an unsupported element of the rapture theory as a non-answer; such as, “Well, I believe the rapture and the Second Coming are two different things, so there’s your answer.” Stating your beliefs as proof of your beliefs proves nothing at all. I am looking for an answer that actually addresses the conflict the rapture theory creates with the verses given, and the fact they all point to one event.) MY ANSWER: This conflict with Scripture disappears if you place the Coming / Parousia (and our gathering unto Jesus) where the Bible rightly does: at the Second Coming of Christ immediately after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29-31). There is NO prior event taught in the Word of God. ADDITIONAL WITNESS Here is some additional commentary. This is an excerpt from the book ‘The Pre-trib Rapture: A Bucket Full of Holes!’ by Paul Benson Outright Lie: The Coming (parousia) of Christ and his Revelation (apokalupsis) are two separate events. The rapture theory centers around a false notion that there are two separate returns of Jesus in the end-time events. To illustrate the difference in these two events we are explained the first is his invisible Coming (Greek-parousia) to ‘rapture’ the Church, and the second is his Revelation (Greek-apokalupsis) where he is revealed to the world and pours out judgment. There are a number of words used to refer to the Coming / Return of Christ: coming (Greek-‘parousia’), revelation (Greek-apokalupsis), coming (Greek-erchomai) etc., and if you compare their usage in the Bible you will see times they are used interchangeably to refer to the same event. A glaring example is to look at Jesus comparing his Return to the days of Noah and Lot in Matthew 24, and then look at Luke’s account. Matthew has Jesus using the word coming (parousia), but in Luke Jesus speaks of it as the day he will be revealed (apokalupto). Both words are describing the same event! His coming (parousia) is the day he will be revealed (apokalupto). So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming (apokalupsis) of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 1:7 The Revelation (apokalupsis) of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Revelation 1:1 In the first verse above we have the word ‘apokalupsis’ there translated as coming. The same Greek word is translated in the next example as Revelation! Are you waiting for an unbiblical rapture; or waiting for the Resurrection of the Just at the Coming / Revelation (apokalupsis) of Christ? The Coming of Christ we are waiting for and the Revelation of Jesus Christ are one and the selfsame event! You will not find in the Bible ONE passage of Scripture that plainly describes two comings of Jesus in the end-times. This concept is not from the Bible. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear (phaneroo), we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming (parousia). 1 John 2:28 His Appearance and his Coming are the same event! To separate into two events what the Word of God plainly shows to be one Coming of Christ is error and deception. The pre-trib rapture theory is once again at odds with what is plainly taught in the Scriptures. There are NOT two separate returns of Christ taught in the Bible; this teaching is gross error. The pre-trib-rapture myth is a creation of man, and is a lie against the truth. As all lies are, it is a defilement! If you have been believing and promoting that falsehood I lovingly encourage you to reject it now, and seek the Lord’s forgiveness. If you will turn from that lie and repent for having received it (and taught it to others), God will forgive you and cleanse you from that defilement by the blood of his Son Jesus Christ. He awaits your response. I am praying for you.

Not surprised here. If I believed in a post Trib rapture, I’m sure I would interpret that chapter as you said too. My wife and I agree of this: plan A......we probably won’t see the peace treaty and the temple being rebuilt. BUT if we do, go to plan b plan B....we won’t see the abomination of desolation, but if we do, go to plan c plan c....lock and load because we are in for the long haul.....lol

It helps to turn off cable tv news channels and never turn them on again.

His Peace is immeasurable, unshakeable, unchanging under any circumstance or challenge. Throughout Scripture, and throughout our lives, He accomplishes this . Btw, it IS ALIEN (unknown, unknowable) to most people ..... it is also a sure sign of our salvation in Jesus, to those who are enemies watching - they cannot understand such peace and contentment even under torture and loss of all things that they (enemies) consider of value and hold dear themselves (instead of honoring Jesus as Lord and Savior) . John 14:27 KJ21 “Peace I leave with you; My peace I give unto you, not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. ASV Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful. AMP Peace I leave with you; My [perfect] peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid. [Let My perfect peace calm you in every circumstance and give you courage and strength for every challenge.] AMPC Peace I leave with you; My [own] peace I now give and bequeath to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. [Stop allowing yourselves to be agitated and disturbed; and do not permit yourselves to be fearful and intimidated and cowardly and unsettled.] CSB “Peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Don’t let your heart be troubled or fearful. CEB “Peace I leave with you. My peace I give you. I give to you not as the world gives. Don’t be troubled or afraid. CJB “What I am leaving with you is shalom — I am giving you my shalom. I don’t give the way the world gives. Don’t let yourselves be upset or frightened.

No. Never 'bargain' / no compromise with God's Word. The ones you mention, all of them, in the op, except only Jesus, were not and are not saved unless they turned to Yahweh (not just called- many were called, but few were chosen) . Those who died unsaved, remain forever unsaved. Those who led millions astray, suffer even worse punishment.

Shalom dazeddaisy, I've been there, several times! It can seem quite confusing, right? What you wrote below reminds me of Paul writing in the letter to the Romans, Chapter 7, from verse 13 onwards. So, what can be done? First of all, I think you'll find it harder if you have Christian music and art on one side and then worldly music an art on the other. Such a black & white approach will only come back to bite you as you'll judge yourself when not enjoying the "Christian" side. Because the more rules and divisions we set up in our minds only serves to trap us in guilt and condemnation when we inevitably fail - which is what sin would have us do. We are in the world but not of the world. To cut out worldly things entirely is nigh on impossible as it's our current home. That said, not all worldly music and art is evil. The artists and musicians are people as well and, although they do not have God, that doesn't mean it's all evil and glorifying the devil. in fact, some worldly music and art can be edifying in terms of provoking you to think, praise God and helping you relate with those still of the world - in hopes for their salvation. Paul used such methods when relating to gentiles, such as in Athens. Now, with constant filling of the Word in your mind, and teachings on the Word DAILY, will help keep you clear minded and focused - whether working on a Christian project or one of the world. It will help you appreciate Yahweh in all things, both what you see in the Christian movement and in the world. Again, I recommend the Word or teaching on the Word - I'd stay away from Christian self-help books, "prosperous living", "feel-this-in-10-days" teachings. The Word, the Word and the Word! You will never exhaust it and never reach the bottom! It's alive! So in conclusion, don't try to remove yourself from the world fully - for that would mean you would be of little use to the lost or would require your physical death. But instead, fill yourself with the Word daily, as much as possible. Listen to it. Watch those word-for-word films on the Gospels. Meditate on difficult verses and meditate of wonderful ones. Search out mysteries you don't understand and re-read verses you think you know well with no preconceived ideas - ensuring you digest it correctly. I've done this and I can vouch that, even though I am in the world, I can hear worldly music, see worldly movies and appreciate them (although probably in not the same way as those without God). I also work in a very-worldly environment - full of silly worldly desires, goals and language. Yet, in all these things, my mind is filled with thoughts of Him and praises to Him - because I fill it with the Word. The world doesn't "stick" as much, it now washes off easier. With this in mind, meditate on this in John 13:10. Jesus says "Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean." I hope that makes sense. May Yahweh bless you for your heart that yearns Him more and more. Love & Shalom

Hi Daisy, The pattern you describe is common among Christians when outward shows of spirituality, zeal, and commitment are given priority over inward communion with Christ on a personal level in conjunction with His Word. Think of a bank account into which insufficient deposits are made to cover withdrawals. In spiritual terms the resulting deficit is analagous to the parched places in the passage below. The leaf that stays green is faith that never wavers regardless of circumstances. Jer 17:5-8 (5) Thus says the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD. (6) For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good comes; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. (7) Blessed is the man that trusts in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. (8) For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreads out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat comes, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. I was in a large fellowship that had an intense drama program, dramatised sermons and weekend shows with professional inputs and special effects were being given priority. One young man involved in this "ministry" came my way asking for prayer to help with burn-out symptoms, describing the hardness that had taken over his prayer-life and devotional Bible study, making his previously enjoyable communion with God extremely difficult with the burden of rehearsals and performances. Regular time out of busyness and time in to restedness leads to much fruitfulness in Christ.

Have you ever taken a close look at what's going through your head and happening in your life when you start to slip? If you can identify common elements that turn up when you start slipping away it might help you figure out how to address it. If you don't already have a grasp on what pulls you away then keeping a journal for a while might help you. Aside from that immersion (surrounding yourself with as much of a Christian environment as possible) and accountability to another person are generally good ways to keep yourself on track. Reporting the ups and downs of a struggle with addiction to another person is something a lot of support groups tend to encourage for that reason.

"WHAT HAS MAN AND WOMAN DONE TO OUR WORLD"Sin. There's no new sin under the sun. I cannot cut off the cable, don't have it. Don't cut off the news, it's not on, don't want it. Been on a news fast for many decades. Have enough excitement, and plenty enough troubles, of my own. Besides. Our Lord said; "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things." ... Philippians 4:8, You will not find any of those things (read them again) on the six o'clock news.........

The miracle is , no one deserves to be helped, yet Yahweh Provided a Way (Jesus), and as many as call on Him may receive eternal life. There is nothing in man that Yahweh should save man. It was simply Yahweh's Plan, to save as many as call on Him to live His Life, after Godly sorrow and repentance (repentance is always needed , contrary to the false gospel propagated otherwise on this forum and other forums and around the world everywhere). Few ever find the narrow road to life (Jesus). Men simply want something else more than thay want Yahweh's Kingdom.

I watch the Japanese station NHK and often watch their world news. They report favorably about President Trump, especially in matters concerning Asia. They reported on Trump getting rid of a trade deal with India that was decades old. It benefited India tremendously but was not benefiting the USA. I see the President also got rid of this trade deal with Turkey, as Turkey is no longer a developing country. These particular trade deals were to benefit developing countries. If it would have been someone else as President, we probably would still be in these older trade deals that don't help our country's economy.

Tonight I read a reply by Who me to Ayin Jade's thread called 'The Sacrifice Of Isaac." It struck a chord with me and inspired the following poem and the idea for this thread. Quote of Who me: "Isaac knew that there was no animal for the sacrifice, yet he went on carrying the wood, at the site he willingly submitted to being tied up when he could have overpowered his father and escaped. They both displayed remarkable faith." I hope the quote and the poem will generate a discussion. In Isaac The gentle Lamb of God who died So willingly was crucified As Isaac had submitted to What it was clear his dad would do His love was such that he'd obey And choose to let him have his way So likewise Christ who had all power Chose not to use it in that hour So to the cruelty, He'd submit For Jesus had been born for it The cross was where He'd pay the price His life, for ours a sacrifice The Father's love in Abraham In Isaac was a precious lamb In Isaac there's typology Of Christ who died for you and me

Lol good approach. But another thing to be aware of , is it's only 3.5 years from the revealing of the antichrist. Not 7 years. If somehow we bypass the 7 year treaty ( I think we won't even know about that) , then suddenly the antichrist comes to power, it's only a short 3.5 years to wait. So be encouraged on that outside chance you find yourself in the tribulation.

It's not too late to start being more thankful... God bless! Shalom, David/BeauJangles

Exactly , if Christ , her first offspring is the church, why then are the REST OF HER OFFSPRING also the church? Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Footnotes:

Hi, You are at India and I am not. I haven't a clue as to any laws nor systems of responsibility at India. May God bless you even in your struggle to sustain the basic needs of your mother and yourself. Amen.

Heard that Japanese companies will build seven large factories here in the USA, employing many thousands of Americans. In addition to this, President Trump is still seeking to balance our trade deficit with Japan. https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Japan-is-the-No.-1-investor-in-US-Abe-told-Trump

Congratulations, on the new opportunity. Good for you for working to change your present plight. May the new opportunity be one of benefit to you and your new employer. May you also take some time to reflect upon that which you are leaving, giving God thanks for that job too, for it is the one that has become a stepping stone onto onto this new adventure. There is a place of praises on this board you might take some time to express your thanks to God there as well as by working ever harder at the new job come Monday.

I have not used the va.i can but I have not heard from those that do

Hi Daisy, I think many can relate, myself included, to what you're going through at this stage of your walk with our Lord. And I'm absolutely in prayer for you, sister. The compassionate words of counsel and advice from AnOrangeCat, and Michael37 say much. More couldn't be better stated. All the best to you, in Christ Jesus. God bless! Shalom, David/BeauJangles

For me it was a simple choice, I felt compelled to make a countervote against Hillary, nor more than that. Had I abstained, that would have given her a tiny edge. Realistically though, unless God were to intervene, I could do not good, I live in California, a winner take all electoral state. Never-the-less, there were lot of evangelicals that could not see themselves voting for a lying, felonious, person who did not see fit to try to rescue soldiers and diplomats in trouble. As if her pro-baby killing stance, were not enough reason to reject her. Also important, is the appointment of supreme court justices - so no Hillary or even Bernie. We were not given many (any) viable choices.

If one wants to become a Muslim, the first thing you must do is to deny that Jesus is the Son of God .Having thus guaranteed you are going to Hell, Satan will happily let you go your merry, religious way doing all kinds of good works the Muslim religion requires.Graham had to know this.Good luck to him, rationalizing this somehow when he stands before his Maker.As a minister of God’s Word, he is going to be held to a very high standard.He may suffer a major loss of reward for this error— it was a big one.

Our world today is like one big Simpsons episode. But that will change. In God's perfect timing Jesus Christ will rapture the Church and God will bring His wrath and judgment on our sinful world.

Hi Spock, If one is to think that the Child is the Body of Christ, then they would have to disregard all this - - Christ is the Child, offspring of Israel. (the woman) - Satan, (the dragon) seeks to kill Him. - Christ is the male child to rule the nations. - Christ was caught up to the Father`s throne. - Christ is the victor over the enemy. Marilyn.

Hi Spock, Oh I can`t miss that ay. Are you shouting at me, (lol). I hear you and thought you`d find that. Well if you have a close look it means that Abraham is the Father OF FAITH, not of genealogy. And yes...really! (lol) Those who have the FAITH OF Abraham, not the genes. Marilyn.

@Tzephanyahu Praise God! This is wonderful stuff you shared. Typology is so uplifting for it shows us how much God knows the beginning to the end. He puts it all together in a woven thread from the Old to the New Testaments. Then He reveals it to us piece by piece...over a period of time.

Swidl , you are loved sister . the poems are good encouragments .

Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain. Continuing on... You said, "It is assumed this is speaking of the Millennium time frame and in Revelation the "bride" is seen descending from heaven. Most people associate this event with the start of the 1000 years."Now, if you mean Ezekiel's Temple "is speaking about the Millennium time frame," I will agree with you, but I perceive that you are mixing things in Revelation 20-22 that ought not be mixed. First of all, your statement, "Most people associate this event (apparently, 'the "bride" ... seen descending from heaven') with the start of the 1000 years," is in error. The "bride" is NOT seen descending from "heaven" until the start of chapter 21. The Millennium is seen in chapter 20, verses 1 through 6: Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV) 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. That's as much as Revelation talks about the Millennium. Chapter 20 ends with the Revolt of haSatan AFTER the Millennium and the Great White Throne Judgment. Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV) 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Then, chapters 21 and 22 are about the eternal state AFTER the Millennium and AFTER the Judgment. It is in the eternal state that one sees the "bride" descending from the sky ("heaven"), and that "bride" IS the city, the New Jerusalem, itself! Revelation 21:1- (KJV) 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great (loud) voice out of heaven (Greek: ek tou thronou = "out of the throne") saying, "Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: hee skeenee = "the tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. This messenger ("angel") didn't show Yochanan (John) the "church!" He showed him the CITY! This city is no mean city, either! This city is said to be 12,000 "furlongs" (Greek: "stadia," the plural of "stadion" from the Roman "stadium" measuring 607.14222 feet, based on Roman mile markers in Europe) wide, long, and HIGH! That's 12,000 furlongs x (607.14222 feet / 1 furlong) x (1 mile / 5,280 feet) = 1,379.868681... miles! That's the distance from the northern border of Turkey on the Black Sea to the southern border of Egypt! It's also the distance from the eastern border of Libya to Baghdad, Iraq! And, it's that high, as well! When you consider that Mount Everest is "only" 5.5 miles high, this city would TOWER over Mount Everest (if it were beside the mountain)! It's 250 times taller than Mount Everest! It is indeed the "Mountain of the LORD'S House!" In the New Jerusalem, there will be no Temple. It won't be needed because we will have DIRECT ACCESS to the Father. "God Himself shall be with them (us)!"

Hows the new law working out allowing private facilities to deal with vets that they passed last June? Many naysayers at the time but if it was a bust I'm sure the press would be all over it so have you heard anything?

So true......I NEVER WATCH THAT GARBAGE!

We need to humble ourselves be4 the Lord Without humility no one Can come to God

Will Harpazo FIT? That is the only question you need ask. A form of this word is used 14 times: 14 Occurrences ἁρπαγησόμεθα — 1 Occ. This one is used for the rapture in 1 thes. ἁρπαγέντα — 1 Occ. ἁρπάσαι — 2 Occ. ἁρπάσει — 1 Occ. ἁρπάζει — 2 Occ. ἁρπάζειν — 2 Occ. ἁρπάζοντες — 1 Occ. ἁρπάζουσιν — 1 Occ. ἡρπάγη — 1 Occ. ἥρπασεν — 1 Occ. ἡρπάσθη — 1 Occ. This was is used here in Rev. 12. In its different forms it can mean: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x). Was Jesus pulled up? Was He caught away? It may well be each of these 14 uses has a distinct "flavor" to it. We will just have to ask John when we get there why he used that particular word. It is poor exegesis to make a verse say what you want it to say using only ONE WORD! Ellicot's commentary: There can be no doubt that this man child is Christ Barne's Notes: And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church ... And her child was caught up unto God - This is evidently a symbolical representation. Some event was to occur, or some divine interposition was to take place, as if the child thus born were caught up from the earth to save it from death, and was rendered secure by being in the presence of God, and near his throne. It cannot be supposed that anything like this would "literally" occur. Any divine interposition to protect the church in its increase, or to save it from being destroyed by the dragon - the fierce pagan power - would be properly represented by this. Why may we not suppose the reference to be to the time of Constantine, when the church came under his protection Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary: A rod is for long-continued obstinacy until they submit themselves to obedience [Bengel]: Re 2:27; Ps 2:9, which passages prove the Lord Jesus to be meant. Any interpretation which ignores this must be wrong. The male son's birth cannot be the origin of the Christian state (Christianity triumphing over heathenism under Constantine),... Matthew Poole Commentary: rule all nations with a rod of iron. It was prophesied of Christ, Psalm 2:9, that he should break the nations with a rod of iron. It is applied to the servants of Christ, who overcome, and keep Christ’s words to the end, Revelation 2:27. So as it is here applicable to believers, whom the church should bring forth... To interpret it of Christ’s being taken up into heaven, is to turn a mysterious prophecy into a plain relation, or history of things past. To interpret it concerning Constantine the Great, seemeth very hard Gill's Commentary: And she brought forth a man child,.... Not Christ, literally and personally considered, or Christ in his human nature, as made of a woman, and born of a virgin, which was a fact that had been years ago; but Christ mystically, or Christ in his members, who are called by his name, because he is formed in them, and they are the seed of the woman, the church; It seems the commentaries almost all are against me in this! Imagine that. I found it VERY strange, not one commentary that I found ever mentioned the constellation Virgo, and most people today are SURE that is what is being referenced. I was really disappointed in the commentaries here. The sun and moon reference goes back to Joseph and His dreams. The 12 stars reference the 12 tribes of Israel. There can be no question the woman is Israel. Who was Israel pregnant with? The Messiah had been promised for thousands of years, but finally came through a virgin. Psalms tell us Jesus, the Messiah was to rule with a rod of Iron. Then there is the CONTEXT: the Dragon is mentioned 32 times in this chapter. Make no mistake, this chapter is about the Dragon. In particular it is about what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. He would be after the woman who flees into the wilderness - that is, those that live in Judea. Does the church live in Judea? Is the church fleeing? Then when the Dragon finds that the woman that fled is supernaturally protected, He turns to war against the remnant of her offspring, those that follow Jesus. Notice it is ONLY a remnant. This is the ONLY reference in this chapter that fits the church, and at this time it is ONLY a remnant. We already KNOW the church was raptured way back 3.5 plus years before - just before the 6th seal. How then can you possibly see ANY reference here to the rapture? You are confusing the woman - Israel - with the church.

Sanders appointed two anti semites to his staff.even if he was for smaller govt I wouldnt support him just that alone.im of Jewish lineage and can trace my line to Odessa, Russia. I have seen a passport from 1830 of my surname.

Hi Not Me. Yes, the very word "good" is associated with the word "God". Based on what Christ said when He asked "Why do you call me good? No-one is good except God alone.", some legalists have unfortunately sought to place a prohibition on using the word good and it's extensions. These legalists object to the exclamations, "Goodness me!" and "My goodness!" not considering that goodness is produced as fruit of the Spirit, and that Paul was persuaded the Christians at Rome were full of goodness. I do however abhor and disparage the use of OMG in short or in full in any remarks. Rom 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another. Gal 5:22-23 (22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Many translations and paraphrases including the NIV have "goodness" where the KJV and others say "virtue" in the wonderful sorites (Lit. heap) of qualities in the following passage which explains what God has given us so that we can be partakers of His divine nature. 2Pe 1:3-9 (3) According as his divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that has called us to glory and virtue: (4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; (6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; (7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. (8) For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (9) But he that lacks these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. PHILLIPS For this very reason you must do your utmost from your side, and see that your faith carries with it real goodness of life. Your goodness must be accompanied by knowledge, your knowledge by self-control, your self-control by the ability to endure. Your endurance too must always be accompanied by devotion to God; that in turn must have in it the quality of brotherliness, and your brotherliness must lead on to Christian love.

If your a giant like goliath, its the midgets you have to watch out for.

The way you broke that down matches my understanding perfectly. And it matches the parable of the wheat and tares. Once He had destroyed, systematically, verse by verse, all my pretty pre-trib sermons, I wondered at how I ever got so caught up in it. He actually showed me how it happened but that's a long story in itself :). But particularly with the parable of the tares and wheat, we can clearly see there is ONE major end time harvest. Peter clearly informed us at Pentecost that that end times harvest had begun. Peter presented that passage from Joel as being fulfilled before the eyes of those gathered to witness the first Baptism in the Spirit. We can discern from the OT types, found in the "harvest" references and the "firstfruits" offering, that the harvest has three phases...one harvest in three parts. A firstfruits offering to consecrate the harvest. Which is realized in Jesus resurrection and the resurrection of an unknown number of chosen OT saints.....a "sheaf" taken from the midst of a field and offered to God before the whole field is fully ripe ...it is taken from the earliest ripening grain in the field. After that comes the main harvest....a huge focused ingathering operation where all hands work dawn to dusk to bring in the crop. Almost simultaneously the "gleanings" are harvested....those parts of the harvest left in the corners of the field at the Lord's command, for the sake of the poor. But, the simple challenge to me was to wonder how I'd ever believed in a pre-trib rapture, when this parable makes it CLEAR, that the first to go are the TARES! Only after the tares are removed is the wheat gathered into the Master's barn. Matthew 13 covers all that in great detail, and Jesus Himself explains ALL the symbolic elements so we need not be confused about those. Careful reading and ultra-literal interpretation paint a pretty darn clear picture The above breakdown you shared also aligns perfectly with Rev 20 and the TWO resurrections outlined there....

Amen, Spock. I can hardly wait for the day. Soon and very soon. God bless! Shalom, David/BeauJangles

I believe your hope will be reality real soo my brother. All signs are pointing to a soon return of Jesus Christ to rule and reign over this planet and throw out the usurper, Satan and his followers. As to why God has allowed for this to go on so long, well 1000 years is as a day to the Lord so I’m sure from His perspective this time has not been as long as we see life from our perspective. In addition, I also adhere to the belief that man has been given 6000 years (6days) and the next 1000 years (day of rest) will be the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. I believe there are computations being tossed around that show the 6000 years is close to being up. (My guess is 2028-2030.) Hang in there brother, it won’t be long. Look up for your redemption draws near. Spock

Jesus said that your enemies, would often be found in your own household. Enemies of your Faith, is the problem. The truth is...."Light and Darkness" will never be able to find harmony and comfort with each other, and especially under the same roof. Sometimes you just have to love them from a distance, until God opens a heart so that you can love them much closer. Sometimes we are the heart problem, and God has to work on us, so that we can be the bridge for peace. Where their guilt trip will try to trip you, is if you try to keep your distance, and then you are told that "what real Christian behave like this. ????????? "". So, if you choose to keep some space, you'll have to be willing to accept that they will ALSO condemn you for it........which, is really a "so what". See.....One of the difficult things for many earnest believers to figure out, is how to be helpful and available without being a door-mat. "Meek" does not mean weak, it means, "trying to be at peace with everyone and keeping a quiet spirit". Paul said this about "jerks" and "judges" that you find online, on forums, in life, and in your family.....>"as much as you CAN, be at peace with everyone, all the time". Its not always possible, but it is always possible to understand that we are to try. But its not always possible. Christians are always to forgive and to flex, but we are also required to tell the truth, and the truth burns those who have no heart for it. I personally told a family member, not so long ago, regarding family relations, and personal relations in general......."Some things wont ever be resolved until we are all in heaven where it wont matter anymore". As that is just how it works....Its is a fact that no matter what you do, or how you try.....there are going to be situations on this earth that....unless God resolves them, .. they will never be resolved until all parties involved are all in heaven where none of THIS down here, matters ANYMORE. And sometimes, if you can look at life on EARTH in general....> right now, as how i just described how it will considered when we are in Glory, then this can give us "new eyes" that allow us to see things clearly for the very first time. After all, just how important is any of this >down here< going to be, when we are with God and Christ, 100,00o years from NOW? That is something to consider.... And.....this is why leading people to Christ, (soul winning) is, really, the only thing that matters the MOST....as this is the ONE THING we can do down here, that has anything to do with us and them and God and Christ, in Heaven. Soul winning, is the only thing we can do down here, that has IMPACT in Heaven when we get there, and before. God gave his Life on a Cross to win souls.... and we are the MOST like Him, when we are of the same mentality, the same mind, and involved in this as a lifestyle concern. The truth is.... leading one person (Gospel) into the saving Grace of God, is more important then anything you can ever do with your entire life, as to help keep a soul from eternal damnation is the most important thing of all.... Nothing we can do with our lives, compares to this one pursuit as there is nothing more important. blessings, B

On my knees.

Hmm, how about a movie, JOB ? Could be done as a Pixar type cartoon or ... well no, Pixar type animation might be best. I would love to go to the movie Job. Who's voice might make for a great Job voice over? Anthony Hopkins? Maybe go counter and do a squeaky voice matter of fact hero of determination. Oh Johnny Depp perhaps? Johnny Depp as Job, I like it. Could be a trilogy or even much, like star wars, start at the middle go back and then forward over three four five or more movies all Job. "Have you considered my servant?", "Three friends had I ", "So you think you have it hard" "Thanks for the memories" "Episode five- Job" "Man of sorrow man of joy"

Shalom turtle, A great poem indeed, thank you for sharing it! I learned this from Chuck Missler and thought I'd share it here... Issac, after the event, is not spoken of in Scripture thereafter. There is no detail of him returning with Abraham. He is simply not mentioned, as if he disappeared from that moment. The very next time Issac is mentioned is when he appears to be united with his bride! Now of course, Issac didn't vanish, but only the record of him did until the next appearing. And it makes for a beautiful typology of the Messiah! It's even thought that Abraham knew of this when it happened as he names the place Yahweh-Yireh, as if he knew that something much more significant would happen in that same spot. Praise Yahweh! He has left so many pointers to His son in all of the Tanakh. Love & Shalom

Did you hate him when you gave your vows to live together till death due us part?

Titus 2:1-5 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine. Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

Titus 2:4-5 And so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. The bible is clear we are to love our husbands. If you feel you hate him, then you need to work that out and learn to love him again. It is not grounds for biblical divorce.

@BeauJangles Thank you. I'm glad it ministered to you. The Lord gave it to me tonight after the profound thought of the similarities between Isaac and Christ came together in my heart. We have a place here called Songs Of Praise Poetry Club if you ever want to visit it. I have a bunch of original poems in there which the Lord graciously helped me write starting last June. It is where we can post poetry that we write or lyrics to Christian songs (hymns, etc) to glorify the Lord. You are invited, brother. God bless you.

Oh yeah … bring it on girls gang up on the cripple note to self girls are vicious gang members...

Old old, old, ancient (2004) op, thread/ topic about HELL NOT being temporaty - testimonies in line with SCRIPTURE ! ? yes, ? beware, yes ? (reason, to combat/ expose/ bring the LIGHT OF TRUTH ! JESUS ! VS the current(today) post(s) ) p.s. regardless when and where hell is, stick with SCRIPTURE --- there is NO SECOND CHANCE -- NO 'refining' there.

I make my responses in a kind attitude toward you. I'd say that only Judas Iscariot had such a spirit. Jesus explained that only he was destined to do what he did. Judas was also not a child of God but a child of the devil as all are who don't know Jesus through His grace in salvation. But you are a child of God. For these reasons, I point out that what your pastor made a misdiagnosis, what he said of you is not correct. No one should compare an unborn again person with a born again person. I would venture to say that you are a babe in Christ.. not knowing how to deal with tormenting dreams, not knowing how to pray according to the promises of God concerning your situation. And I suggest that you spend time doing research on bible topics that would give you the means.. the weapons of warfare to overcome such trials. It says in 1 Peter 2:2 "like a babe desire the milk of the word to grow thereby". When you learn what God's word says, then you will be able to defeat the devil just as Jesus did while he was in the wilderness. (Matthew 4:1-11) Your conclusions are not according to God's word concerning your salvation. You are thinking that way because you are used to basing your life on what you feel. But God is all about faith, trusting God is an act of the will, not an experience of feelings. When you are trusting God (the beneficial promises of His word) by your will.. the feelings will learn to follow. And so your relationship with God will grant a response of joy from your spirit man. So first say.. for instance (Psalm 94:19) "When doubts filled my mind, your comfort gave me renewed hope and cheer." Say it as often as needed. As often as you have a thought that you will not "get anything from God". Think of it as a session like children do .. of "no you won't", "yes I will". Go ahead and be stubborn that you will get from God what He promised. That stubbornness in stating God's word is what the bible calls patience. (Hebrews 10:35-36) What you have said is based on feelings which bring thoughts of self condemnation. But (Romans 8:1) says "There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (feelings and sense knowledge thinking), but after the spirit." (the spirit there refers to your spirit-man) that (Romans 7:21) "delights in the law of the Lord." That article is not speaking about God's grace to the sinner, it's about people who rely on their own good works. So, the article is not talking about you. It says in John 6:37 "All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." That is a statement of grace to the sinner who doesn't have any good works to boast of. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." When you are matured in the word of God then go back to that article and compare your maturity in Christ with it. Hint: a Christian that is mature in Christ doesn't rely on their good works in order to be acceptable to God. They have been born again by faith, in grace.. and thereafter continues to walk in that faith, and according to (1 John 4:16) "knowing and believing the love which God has for him."

Always an engaging topic for exhortation, Saved.One.by.Grace. The 7 categories of our combat are: salvation, righteousness, truth, readiness of the Gospel of peace, faith, Spirit, prayer. Satan and his lot may test us with regard to these but in Christ we have the victory. 2Co 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causes us to triumph in Christ, and makes manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. Rom 8:35-39 (35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. (38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.