JimiSurvivor

Prayer has many effects, it is true but fundamentally when people of faith pay they expect that their prayers will cause changes to take place, not only in them, but in others and in the real world. Prayer is not dropping a penny in the wishing well. It is not like the prayer wheels that turn about in the wind and accomplish nothing. When the scriptures speak of prayers being answered they present the picture of God being entreated to do something He may not and in some cases definitely would not otherwise do. Abraham's petition with the Theophany really did seem to be entreating God not to destroy Sodom. Was this really going on as it appeared to be - or was it just a puppet theatre? When God said to Moses "Stand aside I will destroy these people" Moses stood in his way and interceded for them. Was God bluffing? It does not appear so. The same could be said of the prayers of Daniel. Would the prophecy of the return been fulfilled if somebody had not prayed? I am not so sure. Many did not go back because they had become prosperous and content in Babylon. Daniel's influence was what moved changes to take place in the heaven. Jesus spoke this way too. He invited His disciples to do His works and (later) greater works yet some of it could not take place unless they had faith. They did not automatically have faith. Faith was something that had to be acted upon even when they knew that God had called them to take the step. Paul prayed for all men around him. He did so expecting something to happen. Some promises offered and foretold by God require a human response to be realized. If you do not believe this then you have to say that much of what the word says does not mean what it appears to say but must correspond to some theological system that would not be around for millenia - that of Calvin who got it from Augustine who learned it from the Gnostic teacher Mani. In that world-view everything is predetermined. God Himself does not change, not in His character but is ready to change His will about things when our relationship to Him changes. When we pray for ourselved it changes this relationships. I am new in this thread but it seems to me that the issue being discussed it is less about prayer than the underlying issue of compatiblism. It is an attribute of God that He knows the future. He knows what we wil freely choose but we are still the ones that must choose to be faithful and pray (and everything else). It is quite an honor to be a part of what God is doing. The sovereign Lord has chosen to give us an active vital role in the redemptive plan! As I heard a teacher say recently "He wants to make us like Him and to be partners with Him in making all things like Him" which is another way of saying he has given us the ministry of reconciliation.

From the many scriptures you all have cited I do not see how anyone could get around the fact that some names entered into the Book will be deleted according to whether they turn away from Christ or remain faithful to Him. The parable of the seeds is a good way to see it. The seeds that were snatched away were never believers and so their names were never entered into the book in the first place. In the case of those with hearts of shallow soil, the seed germinates and they are born again. Then when they have to go through trials they give in and turn from Christ (Mt 10). Their names are blotted out. Those who allow the thorns of lust to grow until they are overcome by them will also have their names deleted (2 Peter 2:20). The names of those who are "good soil" will be found to be written in the book when the books are opened. When I read the Bible I see this taking place in the context of time, frame-by-frame. In one frame they turn to Christ but later they may rebel (like King Saul, or Judas). On the other hand, there is a mystery about it because it appearson one hand that the book is an ongoing work in progress; however, other scriptures suggest that it is already been completed. I had a difficult time with this until I read the Net Bible. Their grammatical analysis of Rev 13:8 and Rev 17:8 shows that these verses should not be translated as "the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth." It is not the slaying of the Lamb but the writing of the names that was done before the foundation of the earth. The "lamb slain" should modify the book so as to read "The Book of the Slain Lamb" This describes the origin, nature of this book and WHO possesses it. The verb "written" is conjugated in the perfect tense indicating that the action (of writing) was begun and completed in the past and that the completed result (the names) remain. God in a sense "took up His pen, wrote every name, finished the list, put down His pen." The ones who will worship the Beast will be those whose names were never written in the Book but how does that square with names being blotted out. I think it is because that book exists in the realm of His foreknowledge To us the Book is a work in progress, names being added, never added, or deleted. The Book undergoes many revisions until it reaches its final form and is published. WHen that happens the Final Edition will be identical the one He knew in the beginning. This I take to be the result of His transcendent foreknowledge. He is the only writer who possesses the final edition of his work before it has been written. We will not know whose names are in that book until the books are open and it is published. In the end we would have had a choice whether our name was included but He would have known our decision. Freewill and foreknowledge was what the early church believed.

It seems from what little I have read that the eruption of TOBA had more of an effect on us than any mega-super volcano if, indeed, the theory that the human race afterward almost went extinct

I suspect that all the enthusiasm about Einstein physics not being able to account for everything comes from Young Creationism's hope that there is a scientific explanation for the apparent age and distance of the stars. If there is a loophole and faster than light speed is possible then maybe there is a way for it the stars to have been made in a 24 hour day. Is that not what is behind this discussion? Okay so neutrinos can go faster than light. Some evidence suggests that cosmic rays can also. The one thing that does not go faster than light IS light which seems to be the only standard by which stellar distances and time can be measured .

I have Bipolar Disorder too and though I do not have GAD many times bipolar creates the same effect - diffuse feeling of dread as if something bad were going to happen. Over time I have learned that this feeling is an illusion. That does not make it hurt less but it helps me anchor some of my thoughts. I have come to believe that the simplest way to define depression is pain. A week or so ago a man with a serious case of Bipolar along with chronic pain told me if he is had the choice of giving up one, he would rather give up the bipolar. I cannot comment on that because I have never been through anything like what he has been through but what he said was very telling. Because people cannot see Bipolar they are not always able to understand - not that I expect them to any more than I understood that mans condition but not being understood can affect you. Long before we are diagnosed many of us get the sense that our emotional experience is not like experiece of those around us. This tends to make us feel as if we were separated from others, watching them from behind by a wall of glass. It can make you feel lonely even in a crowd. On the other hand we might develop some resentment and judge others as shallow, insensitive, undiscerning or fake (which many people are). More often than not though we blame ourselves and think God is disappointed with us. I was beaten up over this for many years until I finally realized that God was not rejecting me but that He loved me....I mean he really did love me and even though I could not see out of the dark cloud that surrounded me there was more than that. My feelings were not measures of reality. Truth in the Bible can mean reality. Assuming feelings always must support this is a great deception. The realization that God loved me was a work of the Holy Spirit was totally contrary to my emotions. The mood swings are very painful no matter which way they go. Like Icarus, first you fly so high the sun burns off your wings. Then you crash down on the rocks. It is not a tour I ever imagined I would take, one I would never chosen but it teaches you something. Rather, God teaches you things as you go through life with it. I have imagined myself like a Polar explorer. The only constant is the star, the compass and the map. All the rest is in flux. It is really that way with everyone Bipolar just makes you vividly aware of it. We know that we may be sailing along briskly one day but when we need our resources the most we shut down. A lot of believers seem to think that when they are being blessed they are strong in God but when they go through trials they temporarily become weak so they can learn how to depend on Him. I think that in trials we are simply (re)discovering what always is. At all times we are always both weak and strong simultaneously. These are not Sunday school lessons. They are learned every day in life. Joy also is not the same thing as happy feelings. Since Joy is produced through our organic connection to God I believe joy is the celebration of His being - part of who He is (Psalms 16:11). Serving him as you have had meant a lot to you but the emotions may not always register this. His will has meaning and purpose and in that we can have satisfaction even in the seasonal absence of appropriate moods (John 4:34). I am not in any way telling you what your individual experience is but I hope you can relate to enough of it to know that you are not alone Jimi

Explain more about what you mean by telescoping

Trying to figure things out is a human characteristic without which we would not have all the technological advances that have made our lives better and that had made it possible for many of us to live at all. Who is to decide what is pertinent - you? a conference of Bible scholars? the government? On one end of the secular scale there are those who would have everything that is not materialistic purged from society. On the other end are those who say that only religious matters are important. Since God IS the creator His intricate works of genius are worth exploring. When the writers of the Bible talk about the "wisdom of this world" they usually mean the philosophy, outlook, perceptions people have that are unreal distorted or outright lies - not the knowledge of the universe which God Himself made

Choosing the Tree of Knowledge was disobedience to a direct command of God. The effect of eating it

Only because human death was what was relevant to the point Paul was making. Nothing in that passage suggests that the decaying state of the world is not connected to Adam's fall. And specifically we can see that the decaying state of the world is a result of the fall, "To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life" (Genesis 3:17), and that animals didn't eat each other "Then God said,

This is illogical in that it is based on the false premise that the ONLY reason there is no record of something dying is that death did not exist. Asking me to accept this begs the question. In fact, there might be many reasons why such an event was not recorded. You cannot base any case on a lack of evidence. I would be equally illogical for to ask you to show an scriptural example of animals receiving what we would consider a mortal wound and yet they did not die. An example might be an animal who fell from a great height, or one who was struck by a massive falling tree or beaten by meteors. No such example exists but since you believe what you do you must assume that it did, or that it might have or would in time. This is all silly of course. Actually, none of those events would have occurred in the world before the fall. There was no death, sickness, injury, pain, etc. before the fall. So now, we have creatures who cannot die of old age AND because God continually manipulates and micromanages the environment. Trees are not allowed to fall on animals. Goats are warned by God before they stumble and slip into a ravines. There are no accidents of that sort or if there are the animals heal instantly like Wolverine. This story gets bigger and bigger as possibilities. Like a gas your theory expands until it fills the container which in this case includes countless creatures and countless configurations of circumstances for endless ages.

This is illogical in that it is based on the false premise that the ONLY reason there is no record of something dying is that death did not exist. Asking me to accept this begs the question. In fact, there might be many reasons why such an event was not recorded. You cannot base any case on a lack of evidence. I would be equally illogical for to ask you to show an scriptural example of animals receiving what we would consider a mortal wound and yet they did not die. An example might be an animal who fell from a great height, or one who was struck by a massive falling tree or beaten by meteors. No such example exists but since you believe what you do you must assume that it did, or that it might have or would in time. This is all silly of course.

Eating of the Tree of Life was the only alternative presented to keep one from dying.

These scriptures all pertain to people. Physical immortality was only a promise made only to humans one which, for that matter, was never realized. If they had not disobeyed but instead chosen to partake of the Tree of Life they would have lived forever. In fact, even after sinning they could have eaten from it and lived forever. Spiritual death is not inextricably linked to physical death.