Jump to content

Steve_S

Servant
  • Content Count

    4,622
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Community Reputation

3,606 Excellent

About Steve_S

  • Rank
    Royal Member

Profile Information

  • Gender
    Male
  • Interests
    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Recent Profile Visitors

13,759 profile views
  1. Steve_S

    The Measuring of the Temple

    I don't know. I don't know that the flood can be used as a parallel here because Noah was just. Gen 6:9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Hebrews 11 gives a more exacting, though very succinct expansion upon what this really meant. Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Then we have slightly more information from 2 Peter. 2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2Pe 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; Noah was saved through the flood. Noah was a just man, was faithful, feared God, and was a preacher of righteousness. I'd be hard pressed to make comparisons to those who enter the millennium (if they have taken the mark) to this man. I agree that it's probably not a strict chronology, but I do believe that it is generally chronological. I believe that at least parts of chapter 11 (the beginning of the testimony of the two witnesses specifically) starts before the mid point. I believe they are killed after the abomination (this is the *only* way that the timing can work out unless the abomination is not at the strict middle point, but at some point earlier, which may be possible, but i find it to be unlikely given the entire counsel of the eschatological passages surrounding the event). The chapter ends with the second woe and the sounding of the seventh trumpet, probably the third woe. There is a pause while a description of the dragon, beast, and false prophet are described in fairly great detail during chapters 12 and 13. It seems likely to me that chapter 14 comes on the heels of this description because their power is about to come to fruition. One final warning is given in chapter 14 for repentance and then we see the commencement of the bowl judgments starting with chapter 15 (though the actual descriptions of what happen with each one occur in chapter 16). I agree that this is a loose chronology at best, but it certainly seems to fit a reasonable progression of events. Judgment has indeed come at that point and is about to come to its full fruition. I don't see a real problem with such a timing. The second woe occurs after the deaths, resurrection, and ascension of the two witnesses. Judgment really starts even before the abomination, though, most likely, just not to the same degree. The judgments that are falling upon the earth are likely a part of the warning themselves as opposed to being entirely separate from it. Nearly every time we see a judgment occur mankind (except the saints) doubles down in their opposition to God. This is persistent throughout virtually the entire tribulation.
  2. Steve_S

    The Next Event

    No. For two reasons. Firstly, all of the first four seals seem to be worldwide in scope to one degree or another. I tend to think the second seal is probably going to be an indication of a multitude of conflicts. In other words, I think peace itself, the ability of nations to get along will basically be gone. The only "peace" that can be found will be after the rise to power of the anti-Christ and it will be false and fleeting. He is involved in several wars if Daniel 11:36 onward is in reference to him (which I believe it to be). Secondly, I think that at least Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39 are prior to any of the seals being broken. It's possible (in my mind at least) that these two specific events may be the final harbingers that the end is upon us (the end in the context in which I speak being with reference to what would probably the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel becoming imminent). Some people make a pretty good argument that Psalm 83 was fulfilled in the Israeli war of Independence, the Six Day war, and/or the Yom Kippur war or combinations thereof. Some people also make pretty good arguments against that assertion. I'm torn on it personally. Ezekiel 38 has decidedly not happened yet, but it would seem like the major players in that prophecy (russia, iran, turkey) have already formed a tacit alliance against israel to at least a limited degree. This doesn't mean it's imminent, but it's interesting that the three main players from this are all physically operating in a country that sits opposite the highest mountain country in the land of Israel, which is basically the path of invasion through which they seem to come. Eze 39:4 You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. Russian troops patrol the Israeli border in the Golan as we speak. Seeing that sort of thing happen (there are actual photographs), even if it does not have immediate significance, is the next nearest thing to surreal, particularly when you consider the fact that such a thing would not have seemed possible 10 years ago and would not have seemed at all likely even 5 years ago. The second verse of Ezekiel 39 seems to indicate that they will be "turned around" and brought up from the far north. I don't think it's entirely necessary or that it *must* be interpreted in this way, but if I see Russia attempt to pull out of syria and then have some "unexpected" reason in which they have to return in greater numbers, that is certainly going to raise my antennae.
  3. Steve_S

    The Measuring of the Temple

    I cannot find scriptural evidence to support this assertion. It may be true, but if it is, the scripture is 100 percent silent on it. In other words, I don't believe repentance is necessary on their part to enter the 1000 years alive if they are to do so. I would have to disagree with this insofar as I don't think it can be proven that the mark has even been given out yet. Firstly, it seems to me that the mark doesn't go out until the beast demands worship and the only point in time in which the scripture shows that he demands worship is from the point of the abomination forward. Rev 13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth—by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. Rev 13:15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. Rev 13:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, Rev 13:17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. This would indicate that the messages of the three angels in Revelation 14 may be a final set of messages for the earth prior to the going out of the mark, from which there is no turning back from the perspective of salvation. I think the context of Revelation 14 indicates this in what could be called a subtle manner (though I don't view it as all that subtle). Starting with the third angel, which we have covered. I'll post the verses for context though. Rev 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, Rev 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." This is a warning and the warning itself is indicative of the eternal implications, not the temporal implications. Why is this warning about eternity if at this point the mark has went out and eternity is now off limits to those who have received it? On to the indication. Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." From now on is an interesting phrase there. All who die in the Lord are blessed, we know this. The fact that "from now on" is added likely indicates a change in the situation. If people were already blessed to die in the Lord, why is this period going forward now mentioned? I think it's likely that at this point forward the consequences of being a Christian are going to become incredibly dire temporally. At what point in (future) history are we told that the consequences for being a Christian will be most dire? After the mark goes out. To put it as shortly as i can, lol, I think it's likely that this third angel makes his announcement before anyone receives the mark, maybe days, hours, or minutes before, as a reminder that worshiping this false Christ and accepting what basically equates to his mark of ownership will have eternal consequences from which there is no turning back. This is consistent with the character of God as revealed throughout the entire counsel of the scriptures. I don't disagree with this general expository outlook, my main problem is with the idea that repentance is even necessary for those who receive the mark to enter the millennium. I have other questions on it as well, perhaps one could call them assumptions, but those would be outside of the scope of this conversation.
  4. Steve_S

    The Measuring of the Temple

    I have no idea, but it isn't delineated specifically so any postulation is conjectural. The only answer I can give to this is that it's because they didn't repent. I cannot speak to why God chooses to reveal what He chooses to reveal to us. It's certainly significant (if for no other reason than God revealed it), but the scripture does not indicate an explicit reason for its significance. This is not a question that I can answer, but I do know that those who take the mark of the beast will not repent and turn to Christ, because the bible explicitly states that they won't. Again, I cannot give God's reasoning for doing anything. His ways are not our ways.
  5. Steve_S

    New Relationship

    My recommendation is to trust your instinct and flee.
  6. Steve_S

    The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

    Interesting. So since you assert that "kosmos" means the world system of governments currently in place in Christ's time period, let's look at how that word is used contextually and the implications of such a claim. Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: In your opinion is this kingdom only prepared for the sheep from the foundation of the world system present during Christ's time period? Was it from the creation of the world? Or was the plan of the kingdom only formulated by God after the flood? Here's another. Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (kosmos). Do you assert that the "world" in this context (kosmos) is only speaking of "civilization?"... From the "foundation of civilization?" That doesn't really fit contextually locally or broadly. If the beginning of the world (kosmos) was "after Noah's flood" as you state, then God's plans for salvation did not begin until after Noah's flood, which is simply scripturally untenable and certainly does not reasonably line up with a God we know to be entirely omniscient. Either the great tribulation itself is going to be worse than the flood or God's plans for salvation did not start until after the flood. Using your own methodology of interpretation, it cannot be both. They shall deliver you up "into tribulation" is not an unreasonable manner of putting that phrase. However, this is different than the phrase found in Matthew 24:21. Let's take a look: Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Great tribulation here is not eis thilipsis. It is "megas thilipsis," which has an entirely different connotation, of course. This is why the translators of the NKJV chose to translate 24:9 "deliver you up to tribulation" while they maintained "great tribulation" as the translation for 24:21, because the the adjective megas modifies the noun thilipsis. In the case of Matthew 24:9, eis thilipsis is a noun preceded by a preposition. In other words, comparing "eis thilipsis" to "megas thilipsis" is gramatically equivalent to comparing apples and oranges, so I'm unsure why that was even broached. This is an interesting assertion as well. Let's take a look at Matthew 5. Mat 5:11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Salt and Light Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Are you are prepared to mount the same defense for these verses insofar as there only being a local and immediate application to the group to whom Christ was speaking?
  7. Steve_S

    The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

    Jesus said with specificity that the great tribulation starts after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. Mat 24:18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. Mat 24:19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! Mat 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. So it cannot be now.
  8. Steve_S

    The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

    Again, none of this addresses how people from Revelation 7 who are said to come out of the "great tribulation" are supposedly raptured 3-1/2 years before that even starts.
  9. Steve_S

    The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

    We are most certainly not in the great tribulation. Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. I don't think anything that is currently happening or has happened in history can be compared to the flood, which is the greatest calamity to befall humanity thus far. As such, one can confidently assert that we aren't anywhere in the vicinity of "great tribulation, such as has not been seen since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor shall ever be."
  10. Steve_S

    The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

    I understand the AOD. The point i am making is that the "Great tribulation" does not start until after the AOD. Revelation specifically says that the people gathered there came out of the great tribulation. Therefore, they would have to have been present at least 3-1/2 years into the 70th week.
  11. Steve_S

    The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

    So if it happens before the tribulation then those in Revelation 7 cannot be people who are raptured before it begins because it says they come out of it. Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Words mean things. These words say that these people come out of the tribulation. In fact, it says they come out of the great tribulation, which Christ said doesn't begin until after the abomination of desolation. Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. Mat 24:18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. Mat 24:19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! Mat 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Since these people come out of the great tribulation, which Jesus specifically and unequivocally states happens *after* the abomination of desolation, then they cannot have been raptured before before the 7 year period.
  12. Steve_S

    The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

    So you are saying the rapture happens during the tribulation? I'm a bit confused.
  13. Steve_S

    The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

    Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Again, these people you are saying were raptured are said to come out of the great tribulation. How can one come out of something that they aren't in?
  14. Steve_S

    The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

    I'm still going to have to ask how one comes out of something that they aren't in. If these are people who are raptured before the tribulation, how do they come out of it?
  15. Steve_S

    The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

    It wasn't written like that though. The verse doesn't say that. The verse says that they come out of the tribulation. To come out of something you have to be in it. Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. I've never heard of anyone or anything coming out of something it isn't in. It's certainly easier to say "the bible should say this," but it doesn't say that at all. Those people in Revelation 6 are killed, what of them?
×