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Steve_S

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Everything posted by Steve_S

  1. Omega is one of the first people I met on Worthy. He never did anything rashly and always approached things thoughtfully and prayerfully. He was a fine example of a man of God, and I'm certain that he's quite happy where he is right now. On this earth, though, he will be missed.
  2. Steve_S

    Timelines

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. It says those future tribulation saints enter a thousand year reign, and it also says that those saints did not worship the beast or take his mark. You say Revelation 13 is yet future, but we are currently in the millennium. No amount of exegetical gymnastics can reconcile these two things.
  3. I think I'll be around for a while, just not as much as I used to be. The family is doing great, thanks for asking! We are definitely living in different times. Amen, it will be a great time!
  4. I'm not interested in reading it. I understand the various preterist positions. My question was whether or not all of the events from Revelation 20:1-4 have already occurred. Also, if they have, then when, specifically?
  5. So, just to be clear, you believe Revelation was written prior to when, 70 AD? Also, just a follow up, since you quoted Revelation 20:2. We should look at the entire passage. Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. Rev 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Has this all occurred?
  6. I would be interested in a scriptural defense of this position. As it stands, virtually every government of every nation that I know of are in varying states of deception. Spreading the gospel is illegal to one degree or another in countries that account for well over half of the world's population. Over the past 2000 years, the unfettered spread of the gospel is an absolute aberration that happens only on rare occasions. When did the binding occur?
  7. The dust bowl in the united states as far as drought is one of the worst droughts in recorded history on earth notwithstanding those mentioned in the scriptures (note I said recorded history, there have been very likely many bad unrecorded droughts) and it was pre-Israel. It was also concurrent with economic collapse and massive, worldwide famine. Our economic situation has not approached great depression levels, certainly not world wide, since the great depression. This is an objective, observable fact. This is from the article that you posted above on earthquakes: The ComCat earthquake catalog contains an increasing number of earthquakes in recent years not because there are more earthquakes, but because there are more seismic instruments and they are able to record more earthquakes. Also, from your article: In the past 44 years, from 1973 through 2017, our records show that we have exceeded the long-term average number of major earthquakes only 11 times, in 1976, 1990, 1995, 1999, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2015, and 2016. In other years the total was well below the 16 per year expected based on the long-term average: 1989 only saw 6, while 1988 saw only 7 major earthquakes. This article basically proves my point. There are more recorded earthquakes, but there are more seismographs. As far as violent earthquakes, the averages, over time, bear out the same as they did before. According to your article, the biggest year over that 44 year period had 24 with a magnitude of 7 or greater, the smallest year had 6. That's the range... 8 < average < 10. There's no correlation here with stronger earthquakes. Again, I don't disagree with you that there is a convergence, I just think it is not as blatant. I expect when it gets blatant it will be undeniable. We will not have to post articles from the USGS because instead of there being a few more than normal, there will be 50 more than normal with many of them wrecking major cities, etc. We are not seeing that right now.
  8. It may mean this, but nationhood, biblically speaking, does not always involve a national government, etc.: Gen 46:3 So He said, "I am God, the God of your father; do not fear to go down to Egypt, for I will make of you a great nation there. Israel was made a great nation while in Egypt. They were brought into the land already, after achieving nationhood. By this standard, Israel has been a scattered nation of people. In the parable of the fig tree: Mar 13:28 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. Mar 13:29 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that it is near—at the doors! Mar 13:30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. I'm very reticent to build direct doctrine off of parables such as this (unless their meaning is explicitly explained in the text). It is fairly obvious what Jesus means here, but He is nonspecific. Nothing in the bible is there by accident and nothing is left out by accident. This is so general that it could mean literally from the first return from the diaspora, which started, functionally, in the late 19th and early 20th century. It could also mean what you believe, from the mid 50s, when Israel formed as a nation. I'm not convinced of either of those scenarios though, but I think the mid 50s date that you hold to probably has some merit. The main reason I say this is because the Jews do not control the biblical borders of canaan, nor have they established a direct presence on the temple mount. If you pushed me to pick a date in the past, I would probably say 1967 when they gained total control of Jerusalem and physical possession of the temple mount as more likely than the mid to late 50s. The nation from that point forward, as far as it's borders, much more resembles what is described of Israel in the scriptures (the part west of the Jordan at least). All of this is not to say that you're wrong, just that I don't believe it's definitive, nor that we can be definitive on it. We are called to be ever watchful to be sure and I certainly think we should be. I think it's going to be progressively more obvious, however. The convergence of events seems to be happening to a degree or another, but Jesus specifically described the birth pangs: Mat 24:4-14 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. (5) For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. (6) And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (7) For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. (8) All these are the beginning of sorrows. (9) "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. (10) And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. (11) Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. (12) And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. (13) But he who endures to the end shall be saved. (14) And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. The only one of these happening on a large scale right now is the coronavirus, which would be a pestilence. It is definitely bad. Christians are persecuted in many places as well, but not where we live in the west. There are wars and rumors of wars, but we are in a valley as opposed to at a peak as far as that goes (compared to the last century). Earthquake activity does not seem to be abnormally high or particularly abnormally violent. Famines are no different than they have been in the past 50 years (probably better in most respects, though that may change depending on how this virus goes). I could see a us tipping into a lot of these things easily, but that is basically always the case. There is almost always one or two of these things happening simultaneously, but this paints a picture of progressive chaos and lawlessness, combined with war, natural disasters, pestilence and persecution. This is currently not the case. I could certainly be wrong in my interpretation and in what I am seeing and I admit that.
  9. I'd have to disagree with this. This is Paul writing to the Thessalonian church: 1Th 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. This is Peter writing (probably) a letter to the church writ large or perhaps the ones specifically mentioned in 1 Peter (though this would only be speculation): 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2Pe 3:10(a) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, I direct your attention to the first portion of 2 Peter 3:10 Peter uses virtually the same phraseology here. This is not surprising, because the bible is all God breathed. Now, the second portion: 2Pe 3:10(b) in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. The Day of the Lord, particularly the Day of the Lord in the same context that Paul references it, coming as a thief in the night, is associated with the above events. This does not at all seem like the rapture. One can make an argument that the Day of the LORD is the rapture, but I do not believe that there is "no doubt," so to speak.
  10. I have indeed heard of the locust plagues going on. Don't get me wrong, I do think we are close, it's just that I don't know how close. close could mean 5 years or 50 or 100 or 500, though I admit I would not expect it to be 100 or more, probably not 50. That's just a personal opinion, though, not a prophecy or a prognostication. I think there is a convergence happening as well. I think one can certainly make an argument that we're in the birth pains, but i'm not sure exactly where in them or how long the labor is going to be. My wife was in labor 32 hours with our first child, 6 with our second, and 8 with our third. I witnessed basically all of each one from start to finish, save leaving the room to grab stuff and for an epidural to be put in. It can look a whole lot like the baby is about to be born long before it is and sometimes you think it's going to take a lot longer than it does. My thoughts are generally that the birth pains reach a crescendo before the baby is born, so to speak. As such, I expect progressively worse things, particularly wars, pestilence, and famine. Right now, those things are happening, but to small degrees. Coronavirus could lead to some of these things to be sure (and itself is a pestilence), but they are not happening as a result of it right now. When I say small degrees, i mean comparatively, for wars, to say, world war II, or for famine, say the dust bowl, etc. There are objective comparisons that we can make from the last 100 years in all of these areas and nothing right now is as bad as any of the previous ones we can point to. I don't think that they would all have to be as bad or worse or all have to be as bad or worse simultaneously. In other words, if these are birth pains (and I don't disagree that they may be), it certainly seems like it's the beginning of the labor.
  11. I see no definitive indicators yet. Jesus gave us definitive indicators in Matthew 24, for instance (specifically the occurrence of the abomination of desolation). The thing with stuff like this, general pestilence, etc., is that it could absolutely be an image or a type of what is to come, but that what is to come could still be 5 years away... or 500. We do not have a context for this as a plague because in our lifetime it's never happened. The black death wiped out half of europe though, for instance. On a historical timeline there are plagues that have happened that really overshadow this one (at least the manifestation of the virus thus far). The main difference is that now economies are *artificially* shutting down in an attempt to contain the virus. We weren't capable of doing that before because agrarian economies in non-democratic societies functioned far differently and most plagues have occurred under those conditions. Also, there was a general lack of understanding about how disease spread. 50+ years ago, I think the virus would've spread through populations the way viruses do and economies would've collapsed on the back of it. Economies are not collapsing so much now as they are being paused. This has basically never been attempted and it is certainly going to result in pain, but the fundamental difference is that there is an understanding that it is happening as it is happening rather than what usually happens, which is that it's been happening for six months before almost anyone realizes it. I don't know how significant that is, but it is worth noting. The only real specific prophecy (to my limited knowledge) this could be fulfilling (or perhaps beginning to fulfill would be a better term) is the third and fourth seal, but the four seals combined result in a 25 percent reduction in global population. This does not seem to be close to that. The spanish flu pandemic, combined with world war I, and the famine that accompanies both pestilence and war, all occurring simultaneously in early industrial societies, in a vacuum, followed a lot closer to what you'd see in Revelation 6 (and I think we would all agree those were not the seals opening). I would expect it to at least be as bad as 1918 (but really a lot worse) before I became concerned that actual apocalyptic prophecy was starting to play out. Having said that, and as I noted above, this could certainly be a glimpse or the equivalent of a partially exposed negative of what is to come one day (and I do personally believe sooner rather than later).
  12. Please remember to keep it civil and not make unmerited accusations. If you feel someone else is out of line, please report it rather than attempting to handle it yourself in the thread.
  13. This thread has remained quite civil to this point. Things like this threaten that civility. Please remember to debate the subject and not the person going forward.
  14. I would not disagree regarding the bowling league either, of course. Regarding evolution, though, I would say that atheistic Tuesday night bowlers are not the ones making the decisions on what the children of Christians are going to be taught in schools and universities. I suppose my first question is what, specifically, constitutes the scientific community in this context? What sciences specifically? What level of education? Does this just involve researchers or also educators that rarely or never participate in research? Does this involve people only with graduate degrees? Does this involve any, some, or all MDs or DOs?
  15. We definitively agree on this. I understand what you are getting at here, but I am not so sure that I agree with it. You say the scientific community is anti-God, but not anti-Christian. Christians are the physical representatives of God on earth. There are certainly no shortage of scriptures that point to this fact and the concept itself is present basically throughout the new testament, particularly from towards the end of Christ's Ministry, into acts, and through the epistles. Perhaps the concept itself could even be said to crescendo in the Book of Revelation when we see massive numbers of Christians being martyred on account of their faith. The world itself, the non-Christian world, is complicit with many seemingly being active participants. I might even consider making an argument that any generation of non-Christians would be susceptible to participation in such a thing, given the circumstances and opportunity (though that argument would be based on an inductive inference and I certainly would not do so dogmatically). My ultimate point is that I'm not sure how easy it is to differentiate the spiritual state of the nonbeliever on a personal level (at enmity with God and, by extension, those who belong to Him) and their attitude towards God and his followers. I certainly would not make the argument that all nonbelievers harbor and unquenchable, burning hatred for Christians that they carry with them at all times, just that their spiritual state is likely to have a less than trivial effect on their personal outlook, particularly over time and even more particularly in what (I think anyone would agree) is a supercharged political atmosphere in our country at this time. I would not disagree (God hates all sin). However, I think this ultimately goes toward my point. Whatever one defines as "anti-God" - at the end of the day the most simple definition is "sin," but I would not reduce the context of this conversation down to that concept alone. My point can probably be best demonstrated by something Paul says when instructing us to put on the armor of God (and why it's important to do so!). Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against... In other words, Christians are in a state of struggle against these influences - the flesh, yes, but these things influence the flesh. Nonbelievers have zero defense. In short, they are at their mercy and under their influence in a total sort of way. No matter what our outward interactions are with them, we are apart from them and unless they become one of us, we always will be. Do we stumble? Yes. God will pick us up when we fall. You point out that Christians must admit to our shortcomings and we certainly should. That is an important part of our witness, even, and our witness is incredibly important. However, we also need to be realistic about the state of the nonbeliever and understand that they need Christ - that until they are reconciled to God through Christ, they are at enmity with Him (and because of this, to one degree or another, with us).
  16. I think this thread has ran its course, locked.
  17. Not really wanting to participate in the part of this debate about the age of the earth, but in perusing this thread (your typical late night, not much else to do sort of perusing) this post jumped out at me, mainly because, from a scriptural perspective, not being a follower of Christ basically puts a person automatically at enmity with God. In other words, until a person is reconciled to God through faith in Christ, they are most definitively, in a very real sense, anti-God.
  18. Comments like this have no place in threads on Worthy. Please remember to debate the person and not the subject.
  19. Me, George, and Omega can delete posts. I may have deleted them, but I do not remember it. Can you give me a time frame so I can check some stuff?
  20. Firstly, how do you know that happened? Secondly, Augustine was born 150 years after 200 A.D. and probably didn't adopt most of his theology for another 30+ years after that.
  21. Can you please specify what verses in the scriptures have been modified and when?
  22. So if Babylon is Jerusalem and you say it has totally fallen prior to Jesus' return, it's like this: Rev 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. But, in Zechariah we see this: Zec 14:14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations Shall be gathered together: Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance. Zec 14:15 Such also shall be the plague On the horse and the mule, On the camel and the donkey, And on all the cattle that will be in those camps. So shall this plague be. Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Zec 14:17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. So, Babylon, thrown down, found no more. But Jerusalem, suspiciously intact? Indeed, in the same Paragraph we see the same Jerusalem that was fought against mentioned as the Jerusalem that families of the earth will make pilgrimage during the millennium. I just don't see how this is possible if Jerusalem is also the Babylon of Revelation. This is the ultimate issue.
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