~Rob

Einstein was wrong. God does play with dice, as every physics student can confirm. You must be a super-brain, viole, if you claim Einstein (arguably the smartest man who ever lived) was wrong. Either that or you have a tremendous sense of self-importance. Newton was also wrong in some of his conclusions, that does not take an inch out of his genius. It is a fact that Einstein never accepted the philosophical consequences of quantum mechanics, which introduces probability and non-determinism in fundamental physics. The sentence "God does not play with dice" was an attack to the non-deterministic nature of the quantum world. He spent half of his intellectual life trying to disprove this view, without success. In the meantime, quantum mechanics has become the most successful theory in the history of physics. And the model that is confirmed by such jaw dropping experimental precision is fundamentally non deterministic or, in other words, it is fundamentally random. For instance, it does not make any sense to say that an electron goes from A to B following a certain trajectory. The electron follows all possible trajectories at the same time in all possible ways. This electron has a non zero probability to be found in Houston, on Andromeda, on the other side of the Universe, etc. on its trip to B. This is the model that Einstein never accepted. A normal person could think this is completely crazy, but the problem is that this model is validated by experiment with an extremely high precision and, therefore, there is no reason not to consider it valid. And BTW: Eintein never believed in a personal God (e.g. answering prayers), so I guess you will also admit that He was not infallible ;-) Just to add my own little addition to the einstein discussion here is what he had to say on his own religious belief's "I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." This doesn't really mesh with christianity

Ok.....here's two... 1 Jesus 2 The Bible Now it's your turn What did you think when you typed this ...... Its not a smart or witty response ....... it makes you look foolish and anyone looking at this thread from an objective standpoint would agree. I think it's a great response....at least fez is honest and he is NOT the one looking foolish here. You are miffed about comments made toward your heroes? Well, disprove them then. That is a Guilty until proven innocent mentality. " I have claimed this and until you have proven that im wrong i must be right " The burden of proof is on you, I have claimed nothing, you have claimed something, to whit, there is a god therefore you must prove your claim. For example If i was to say..... There is such a thing as a mermaid would you then have to prove that i am wrong before it is accepted that there is no mermaid Or alternatively would i have to bring evidence that there is a mermaid The Burden of proof would be on me in this case Oh and for the record Darwin is not a Hero of mine while he is an esteemed scientist who started us down a fascinating biological aspect of life I personally prefer people like Edgar Allan Poe and the hilarious Jack Black

Ok.....here's two... 1 Jesus 2 The Bible Now it's your turn What did you think when you typed this ...... Its not a smart or witty response ....... it makes you look foolish and anyone looking at this thread from an objective standpoint would agree.

The Judgement Of The Creator Is Not Intended To Amuse> Just Look At What That Evolutionary Lie For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans 1:16-23 Has Wrought In The Neighborhood Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:24-32 To start with im not amused, I despair at your lack of thought...... you shout out these phrases or arguments again and again without thinking about them, you throw scripture at Atheists thinking that we will suddenly see the light...... Every argument you make comes from trying to make truth of copies of copies of translations of ancient documents with multiple authors I am Perfectly willing to accept any sort of evidence you can give me, Im also perfectly willing to say that I am wrong with something .......... But for your sake if not mine don't just throw out lines like "Just look at what that evolutionary lie" without thinking about what you are saying. Let me ask you two questions. 1. Is Science the best method we have at the moment to work out how things exist in our world..... plants, rocks trees life elements etc. 2. If evolutionary science is so wrong ..... why is it still studied worked on and scientific predictions using it proven and shown every day.

You know i thought this post would be interesting, but so far all you have done is Bag out Dawkins and Darwin........ without giving a single piece of evidence or even an example to prove your claims ..... Back up what you are saying

Why.... OK, No Split.... He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isaiah 53:3-7 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15 Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalms 103:1 Better? ____________ Misplaced? And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Mark 9:47-49 I Think Not But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. Ezekiel 33:6 ____________ Believe And Be Blessed Beloved Love, Joe Sorry Joe i find it irritating and i find myself more often than not skipping your scripture to read the actual responses to my and others comments

Well Dear One He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isaiah 53:3-7 He Is Serious About You For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18 But Then The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36 Again.... For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15 ~ Love, Joe Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalms 103:1 Joe i know why you split up your posts like that but it makes them hard to read and doesn't influence me at all. That being said i appreciate your concern even if it is misplaced.

"We" being.....? Actually, I asked Cato for evidence but, since you brought it up......I notice you use the standards recommended by 'The Atheist Review' when debating Christians. Yeah, I'm familiar with the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster'; it's a staple on the atheist blogs. 'Us' being....? I really don't care if you accept evidence or not; it's your future, not mine. In fact, I'll venture that NO Christian gives a flying fig if any of you accept anything other than the Lord. The evidence for God is staring back at you every morning when you shave....remember him? Btw, if you need your grass cut, I'll lend you my Flying Cosmic Goat...... Ok the Us and We i was referring to is simply being put forth for the majority of the Atheist community, and the Atheist Review... Im honestly not familiar with that publication .... But thanks for the goat i might take you up on that offer : ) I just threw in the mythical goat for comic relief......this is such a serious subject. What atheist community? You mean the one that has blogs, websites, magazines, newsletters, message boards, conventions, seminars and book signings by big time atheist authors? The one that offers '10 Tips for Debating Christians' and other similar lists? I have perused, researched and read a HUGE percentage of them and I am familiar with the talking points and guides for trying to prove Christians wrong. I seldom read anything about debating muslims though, just a few scattered articles here and there.....why is that? And what kind of atheist are you if you've never read The Atheist Review'? It's one of the main online atheist resources. Atheism is not one select group that focuses on online forums and online books or even on debating christianity.... there is NO specific requirement to read the Atheist review or any publication at all... one doesn't have to debate with religious people and one doesn't have to even tell ANYONE that they are an atheist. I am an atheist who if you read my about me page ..... which i think you have ..... knows exactly why i came to my own conclusions. Now as for the debating christians overwhelming articles on atheistic sites i would have thought the answer being obvious, in western culture christianity is the overwhelming religion so the atheists from these countries encounter atheist resistance and Dogma from christians a lot more than other religions. Oh and before i go ..... of course the goat was comic relief im not stupid i was merely trying to indicate that i got the joke

"We" being.....? Actually, I asked Cato for evidence but, since you brought it up......I notice you use the standards recommended by 'The Atheist Review' when debating Christians. Yeah, I'm familiar with the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster'; it's a staple on the atheist blogs. 'Us' being....? I really don't care if you accept evidence or not; it's your future, not mine. In fact, I'll venture that NO Christian gives a flying fig if any of you accept anything other than the Lord. The evidence for God is staring back at you every morning when you shave....remember him? Btw, if you need your grass cut, I'll lend you my Flying Cosmic Goat...... Ok the Us and We i was referring to is simply being put forth for the majority of the Atheist community, and the Atheist Review... Im honestly not familiar with that publication .... But thanks for the goat i might take you up on that offer : )

Nowhere. He's dead. Sorry, no cigar for you. You might want to contemplate the question some more. Very enigmatic. Where do you think he is? All the available evidence points to him being dead. (Whatever your answer, I'm going to ask for evidence.) Mr. Russell, like all nonbelievers, is awaiting the day of Judgment in hell. The evidence is in Scripture. And I will ask you for evidence that he is not. That is not the way we look at things scientifically, We Do not assert something then go about insisting that people prove us wrong. We make predictions see how those play out provide evidence and then make a statement. The bible furthermore is evidence of nothing to us as it is being used to prove itself. For example there is a book out there im sure many of you will have heard of called "The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster" within this book it asserts multiple times as the bible does that it is truth.... does this make it so? of course not. I will accept evidence you put forward so long as it is unbiased and can be proven and tested with scientific method. Please do not try to quote the bible to prove the bible... as many times as you do it ... it cuts no grass with us

He's an atheist, you know. Can't really expect him to state otherwise. I know; I want him to flat out say that. Why would you want him to state that? Obviously, he views your religion and all its elements to be false. If you really want me to state it i will although i see no reason why you need the words from me, Yes i consider The christian god to be at best a white lie.

Approaching every itme you have mentioned here, The planets creation and our solar system can be traced back through Carbon, Radioactive and Molecular Clocks. That with measuring the regression we can get a very strong picture of what happened with those. The Sun can not only be measured and proven that if things remain constant It will reappear over the horizon the next morning, It could even be followed around the earth if you could be bothered to charter a special flight to do so. The Astronauts in space present a slightly different problem as film footage can be faked and such is the fuel of all conspiracy theorists everywhere. However again we were able to watch people leave and return in spacecraft and can even see in very high def with our telescopes their arrival in space and even once or twice we can catch a glimpse of them outside crafts. Again with the stars we have a similar issue to the sun, However with some simple calculations we can make predictions that they will be there in the morning which we can then verify with proper application of the hubble telescope. With the wind you are correct we can see its effects and although we can't see it, we can measure it by removing out any other extraneous effects, Of course there is more to it than that but i won't put them here for lack of time As all of these can be quantified with Fact, I would put it that it does not take Faith as they are all able to be checked If you can be bothered to do so.

I find this response really interesting. I've had close family members who were dying, and their faith was what helped get them through. And I wouldn't have had it any other way. I do get angry with certain Atheists who seem pretty driven to take that away from people when they need it. That said, different people find different paths in life and reasons for living. Different things that they as individuals feel connected to. For some people that may be religion, for others it may be music or family or simply life itself. It's really up to the individual. The idea that religion is needed by all people who are going through rough times is just not true. Some people simply find another way of dealing with their problems that doesn't involve religion. I've also seen Atheists approach death as well as other hardships, and they had other things to get through that obviously didn't involve religion. It might sound heartless to say it like this but Just because something is comforting does not make it correct. Santa Claus for example is a comforting Lie for children ..... I don't say this because im trying to take comfort away from anyone Just simply trying to point out as i said above. "Just because it makes you feel good, Does not mean its the truth ...... and sooner or later even innocent white lies will hurt"

Wow, I didn't know that was the first usage of the term, thanks. A few Christians died at the hands of the Romans on the charge of being atheists, not because they didn't believe in the Roman gods but because Christians didn't use idols, so there was nothing tangible that they worshiped. It actually wouldn't have been a problem for the Romans as they had a special deal with the Jews and Christianity was originally viewed as a sect of Judaism. But when Christianity separated itself from Judaism in the eyes of the Romans did problems start. I do agree atheism isn't a religion (sport teams and political parties are religions way before atheism ever is), however I do think that that Dawkins argument is sophomoric. A plethora of religions throughout time, even if the religion is viewed as the only true religion, had the concept of religious pluralism coupled with the idea that there is One God and people know God and worship God under different names. Besides, atheism is a stance saying that no deities exist; it is careless to use the word as Dawkins uses it as Christians do believe in at least one deity. You are not atheist to Zeus, you don't accept Zeus as an actual deity but a mythological character made up by the ancient Greeks. You are atheist when you reject all deities*, to use it in another fashion is a misuse of the term. * It depends on your definition of deity; some definitions of God don't include pantheism while others do for example. I fully agree with everything you have said, I would say more but thats really all there is to it : )

I'm still not understanding why atheists come to this board, and others, if you don't believe. You have stated you have read several Bibles through and studied many religions. If you don't believe in ANY God why would you do that? I find it fascinating from an Anthropological standpoint. Whether i believe in your god or not religion has changed our world dramatically. To put it basically I come here because i find it interesting. Thats the only reason