tomwindsor

You need to study, Ezekiel 1:15-28 Then go to chapter 10:1-21 your question is in this chapter........ Ezekiel 10:20--"This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river Chebar; and I knew that "THEY" were the "CHERUBIMS" Then you need to add this to your study Rev 4:7-11 the whole chapter is a good study OC Greetings , Though the wheels are associated with the cherubim , they aren't one and the same . Some background on the cherubim (from the book ) Four Living Creatures: Their appearance is in the form of men, but each have four faces and wings. Each have the face of a man, an eagle, a lion, and an ox (respectively). These creatures move about and have wheels beside each of them. They are identified as the cherubim (Ezek.10:21). We further read that the glory of the Lord (in human form) is enthroned upon them. Cherubim were historically thought of as God

You need to study, Ezekiel 1:15-28 Then go to chapter 10:1-21 your question is in this chapter........ Ezekiel 10:20--"This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river Chebar; and I knew that "THEY" were the "CHERUBIMS" Then you need to add this to your study Rev 4:7-11 the whole chapter is a good study OC Greetings , Though the wheels are associated with the cherubim , they aren't one and the same . Some background on the cherubim (from the book ) Four Living Creatures: Their appearance is in the form of men, but each have four faces and wings. Each have the face of a man, an eagle, a lion, and an ox (respectively). These creatures move about and have wheels beside each of them. They are identified as the cherubim (Ezek.10:21). We further read that the glory of the Lord (in human form) is enthroned upon them. Cherubim were historically thought of as God

I can't see any evidence that Mark was referencing Daniels vision in that either. Mark was just saying that Jesus (who sits at the right hand of God the father) is returning on the clouds of heaven. Hope that helps. Greetings , I meant what is the meaning of the wheels and can it proven . As to the Mark 14 quote , (that phrase-"Son of Man" /at the right hand of the Mighty One , " coming on the clouds of heaven" )it is the only time in the OT these 2 concepts are directly spoken of . Also , the Son of man in Daniel is given worship ( isn't that why they said "blasphemy ! " in Marks account ) Thanks , Tom

Greetings , I want to discuss the meaning of the "wheels" of the throne.(so called "Ezekiel's wheels" ) I will be posting some excerpts from a book of mine. Introduction There are descriptions recorded by the prophets that provide rare glimpses into heaven itself. Ezekiel, Daniel, the apostle John, and others saw these visions. They offer a lens, as it were, to "look" into the celestial unknown. These heavenly spiritual concepts are typically described in metaphors. This imagery uses earthly things as types and shadows whereby the Lord communicates to us of heavenly things, and specifically, in this case, God's throne. The words used in the imagery eventually fall short and stretch us to the limits of our imagination, invoking many questions. Why is the Lord enthroned between the cherubim as the Scripture states on a number of occasions? What do the wheels signify beside the cherubim in Ezekiel's vision and beside the throne in Daniel's dream? For ages God's throne, the cherubim, and the wheels beside them have posed a mystery. The ancient Hebrews prohibited its discussion in public and its teaching was restricted to a very few initiates. The early and medieval Church seem to have gone in the other direction and produced fanciful embellishments and excessive allegorizing on the subject. The subject is usually delegated as one of those subjects in the Bible that many believers think is not important because it does not seem relevant to the New Testament. However, consider this: When Christ proclaimed his final claim of Deity to an unbelieving generation, He said: " I am,... and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:62). He was referencing Daniel's vision and that throne was a throne with fiery wheels (Dan. 7:9,13) Regarding the wheels, there has been much curiosity and oft-repeated interpretations (i.e. UFOs/aliens, the planetary orbits, God's providence, sovereignty, etc.) However, rarely is solid evidence from the Scripture offered as proof or a method shown as to how the conclusions were formed. So, what do the wheels in Ezekiel's vision and the throne in Daniel's dream really mean ? How can it be proven from scripture ? Thank you, G.Thomas Windsor (UpwardCall.net)

Meteorology and the Bible --- by G.Thomas Windsor There are various examples in Scripture related to the field of meteorology that give evidence of Divine inspiration. Some of these are in what ancient writers described thousands of years ago. Things that they couldn't have known or that aren't self evident. These truths have only been discovered in modern times . Some of the more well known are as follows: The hydrological cycle (evaporation /transportation /condensation of water around the globe) Job 36:27-28 " For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapor thereof: Which the clouds do drop [and] distill upon man abundantly. "; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD [is] his name. (KJV) Eccl. 1:7* "All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again." Jeremiah 10:13 " When He utters His voice, There is a multitude of waters in the heavens: And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth." Also Amos 9.6 " he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth" The concept that air has weight Job 28:25 "To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure. "(KJV) *Also in Job 37 "by watering he wearieth (to make heavy ) the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud" The Jet Stream circuit The large "rivers" of winds that circle the globe are described in Ecclesiastes 1. It states, "the wind .. blows round and round on its circuits... " )(NET) Ecclesiastes 1:6*(KJV) "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits." The "Whirlwind" in Scripture Relating to the jet stream, let us go to a more detailed look at the subtle atmospheric characteristics the Bible makes reference to that wouldn't be discerned by visual observation in ancient times. These are some lesser known evidences of inspiration. The Scripture speaks so much about whirling winds when they are actually statistically very rare to behold (even for those living in highest probability areas.) In the natural world, whirlwinds/tornadoes are devastating. These violent rotating columns of air can lift up almost everything in their path, scattering vast amounts of materials far distances down wind. There are spots on the globe where favorable terrain, etc., helps create this dynamic as in the central States of the US. The Middle East is also such an area. Certain other major factors create this weather ; simplistically stated, colder drier air slams into very humid warmer air. Next, the turning and veering in the direction of the winds at differing heights creates the rotating columns (" the pillars of cloud " to use another biblical term) and explosive updrafts . These are essential in the formation of the mesocyclone. So we have two main factors A- rotation and B- updraft The principle of rotation Job 37:12 " The clouds go round in circles, wheeling about according to his plans,to carry out all that he commands them over the face of the whole inhabited world, v-13. (NET) In another translation it states " And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth ( kjv. )" The large scale movement of air takes the shape of a meandering river. Although winds generally move in a linear direction, they also contain many circuitous swirling movements. Also, amongst the movement of bodies of air, countless eddies are produced like in a turbulent flow of water . The earth's wind streams have areas of clockwise rotations and counterclockwise rotations on many scales. On a continental view, one could have a very large upper level cyclonic area of the atmosphere that can form mesocyclones (a rotating "supercell" thunderstorm) at lower levels. These can spawn tornadoes which themselves can have within them multiple vortices. These all wheel around, from the massive pinwheel of a hurricane hundreds of miles across in size, to the swirling dust-devil in a hot farmer's field. The Bible makes a connection with the whirlwind in a repetitive them of whirling wheels and chariots (Jeremiah. 4:13; Daniel. 11:40; Isaiah 5:28; Zechariah. 6:5; Psalm 104:4; Isaiah 66:15 .) The principle of updraft Typically, these thunderstorms have visible large-scale cloud rotation, even if it doesn't produce an actual tornado that touches the ground. The people at that time when the Scripture was penned didn't understand the rapid updraft in severe storms. However, they wrote of Elijah having been taken up in the whirlwind into heaven. 2Ki.2:11 - "As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire .... And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. " Also, in the updraft portion of a severe storm a trained eye can observe clouds lifting upwards and infolding upon themselves as it rotates around. Ezek. 1:4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire." Speaking of this whirlwind it states in the Greek, "I beheld (pneuma) a wind (exairon) lifting up." In the Hebrew it can also translate to "touching itself around," as "in a circle.") This is incidentally probably one of the earliest historical accounts of a mesocyclone. The " rolling " of the heavenly winds When there is a turning or a veering in the direction of the winds at differing heights (low level winds and the upper jet stream winds,) this creates a "rolling " effect in the clouds of the thunderstorm which is thought to spawn tornadoes at the surface. So we have horizontal and vertical turning in the atmosphere . This rolling of the atmosphere helps produce a spiraling updraft . The Bible also speaks of this effect as in Revelation 6 (see also Isaiah 34): " 13.....even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together" (KJV.) It is interesting that another passage may speak of this concept. When God delivered his people at the Red Sea (remember the pillar of cloud) it was described in this way: "The crash of thy thunder was in the whirlwind,..." (Psm. 77.) Other translations state "The thunder of your (God's) chariot wheels resounded; your lightning lit up the world; " (NAB.) In another translation it states "the voice of thy thunder in a wheel.... ". (D.R. B.) Here the psalmist uses the Hebrew word for "wheels" (GalGal) by an analogy and metaphor in describing the storms in the heavens and again portrays the heavens as in a rolling dynamic. Nature is transcendent God uses the natural physical heavens and winds to teach us of the heavenly spiritual world. This metaphor for the spirit is used more than any other in the Bible. The Old testament prophets saw these and other storms as revelations and manifestations of His glory. The physical heavens (with its clouds and the winds) is the shadow of the true realities for "The heavens declare his glory" (Psm.19 . ) About the author --- G.Thomas Windsor is a storm chaser and does weather photography. www.upwardcall.net

Greetings , You raise a good point . Consider this scenario : Someday there will be believers ( Scripture gives evidence of such ) who will understand the revealing of the identity of the Antichrist , false prophet and the Mark etc. They will try " to make many understand" (Dan.11 ) , but their proclaimation will be HINDERED by the hundreds of other false and misleading identities and the cynicism of "yea we've been hearing this stuff for many years ". Would not much of the problem have been created by careless Christians ? What do you think ? Tom

Greetings Bill , Good points , Oftentimes things are presented as "the Word of God says " when it is not a direct quote of the text of Scripture , but a presenting of a teaching or an interpretation . If it is found to be error than it seems they will also be guilty of misrepresenting God . As to the term "Antichrist " , I believe a more accurate biblical term for what most people mean would be "the Lawless one " or "the Beast " As to the term " Rapture " , perhaps the term "the Gathering " would be more in line with Scripture . For the kingdom , Tom <www.upwardcall.net>

A warning to those who teach on " End times " Issues (and those who are taught ) by G.Thomas Windsor Anyone who has ventured into the study of the "End Times, " (eschatology,) can see that there is a wide variety of views and opinions on this sometimes complex subject: ( the timing of the Rapture, the Millennium, the Antichrist, the Apostasy and the rebuilt temple question. There is also much heated debate over these topics. In our day of information, ideas are disseminated rapidly in real time versus the years it took in times past. Ideas can take on a life of their own. So why is our view of what we expect to happen so important? Teaching concerning a future event has a special dimension, unlike other things in Scripture. We aren't debating the past. What is being commented on is potentially the greatest, cataclysmic event in the history of mankind (Mt. 24.) There is a "such as never has been" dynamic to all of this that our Lord warned us about. He said "If those days were not shortened, no human being would be saved." Our generation may see "those days." The lesson of the first coming ! Before Christ came the first time, there were various views of the prophecies foretelling His coming and just about everyone missed recognizing Him based on those interpretations when He came into the world. There were very serious consequences to those who misunderstood the prophecies concerning the first coming. It can seem obvious to us because they (the prophecies) have been clearly explained by the Apostles after the event. However, this was not so clear to them. Some prophecies weren't fulfilled at the first coming or were only partly fulfilled. For instance: In the first century many were sure the Messiah would come and deliver them from their enemies (the Romans) and then sit on the throne in Jerusalem. Christ did deliver people and was enthroned, but in a very different way than was expected. Issues of the heart aside, their misunderstanding contributed to the rejection of the promised Christ. They did not "recognize the time of God's appearing among them" (Lk:18 and 19.) We should appreciate the challenge of those who lived in the time preceding the birth of the Messiah for are we not now in a similar situation? We've known and been aware of the 2nd advent prophecies and they've been examined for the last two thousand years. The stakes are very high in this debate . EXAMPLES Let's consider certain popular beliefs regarding eschatology and try to see what the consequences are? (I won't go into much detail concerning these views as there is much information available. I will review them in a very general way.) They are as follows: 1- Those who teach and follow Preterism essentially are saying everything, or that just about everything, was fulfilled in the (MT.24, Lk.21, Mk.13 ) discourse and the worst (tribulation, persecution, apostasy, etc.) has already happened; 2- Those who have taught the Post-Millennial views also believe the worst is over and that the world will get better and better before the return of Christ and that we will see a great conversion of this world; 3- Other schools of thought (sometimes held by Pre-millennialists ) they hold the above mentioned events are to take place in the future, however they say the Apostasy (2 Thess. 2) and the Lawless one (Antichrist, the Beast ) won't come until a temple is rebuilt in the literal Jerusalem: 4- Finally, there are those who teach and embrace Pre-tribulational views (perhaps the dominant view in Christendom,) that the rapture will occur and the church is taken out before the great Tribulation; 5 Aside from the already mentioned issues, there are other beliefs and positions, I.E.: The " mark of the beast "(Rev.13) has to be a physical mark, or that the Antichrist will set up his rule in a physical temple (as opposed to entering the spiritual temple, the church.) What is the net affect of all these positions and many others? Whether everyone is expecting various things to happen first, or for things to gradually get better, or that the worst is behind us, it amounts to the same net affect. All these presuppositions affect the preparedness of the believers if in fact they are wrong and actually the worst is yet to come and the church will go through though the most difficult time it has ever experienced. The great catastrophes If we examine the great catastrophes that have afflicted mankind throughout history, we see that one key ingredient is a gross lack of preparation, and an almost nonchalant and self confident attitude that things were sufficient. Much of what is written on eschatology has a "We-are-sure-it-won't-happen-this-way" or "This-Is-the-way-it-will-be" dogmatic tone. Certainly the truth must be stated boldly, but we must be very careful for if one errs and boldly asserts erroneous views, there are serious consequences. Imagine being in a war and everyone assumes the enemy won't or can't mount another major assault, or that it will only come from a certain direction or only at a certain time. From the Trojan horse to the events at Pearl Harbor and 9-11 we know that being taken by complete surprise is fatal. Is this not a setup for a spiritual calamity? It is written of in Daniel relating to the one who brings in "The Abomination of Desolation," that "When they feel secure he will destroy many-" the Saints, (Dan 8.25) and "He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure" (Dan. 11.) Consider for a moment that the Enemy of the faith wants the church in the final days who are going into THE most difficult time "since the beginning ... and never to be equaled again" (Mt .24, Dan.12,) to be ill prepared and or expecting it in a totally different way to unfold. Or worse yet not expecting what is to come AT ALL . "Judged with greater strictness " With dozens of conflicting scenarios and interpretations set forth or propagated, logic tells us most are already wrong ( though some may not be mutually exclusive.) By the way we aren't talking about the cultist doctrines or those outside of essential Christianity (Mormons, JWs, etc.) We are referencing those in the sphere of believers, within the church. This matter is made worse given the degree of assertions and the way they are presented. Millions follow and ultimately have their trust in them. The greater the consequences of the ideas set forth, the greater the responsibility of those who advance them . People are drawn to those who speak authoritatively. The stronger the tone, the more persuasive, yet for those who carelessly assert things a greater judgment awaits them if they be found in error. Also a "This-won't-affect-us" ideology appeals to our human nature. The question also has to be asked concerning some, whether their teaching is for the sake of selling books, tapes, etc. Bold and sensational eschatology sells and it can be a lucrative business. This provides another reason why business has no place in these debates, when eternal rewards and perhaps people's salvation are at stake. Pride resides in men's hearts. Many will be shown on that day to have been careless or prideful in their opinions. James chapter 3 tells us that "those who teach will be judged with greater strictness " and that we can all err. That should instill a healthy fear in anyone of us who venture to expound (this author included) lest we labor in vain. Inadvertently taking part in the deception ? Christ and the Apostles warned us to "take heed that no one leads you astray " , that a great deception (believing the lie ) will come and "many will fall away ", and that there would be "'every sort of evil that decieves " (Matt. 24 , 2Thess 2, 1 Tim4 .) If most "End Times" teachings turn out to be error , then those who advanced them may have inadvertently participated in the very deception of the end. The great irony is that many teachers of eschatology may actually be setting up the very conditions by which many can be deceived and fall away for the faith : that which they attempted to warn others about. Conclusion Let's continue to search out the Scriptures on these matters , but let our thoughts be presented in a careful way realizing "we only see in part ". Humility would dictate that we take a position of "this is what we've come to understand," rather than "This has to be the way" or a "This can't happen until that " type of position. . We need to be open to understanding more clearly if we are shown a more accurate view of Scripture. "The wisdom that comes down from above is open to reason "(James 3.) The people of God would also benefit much by this approach. May God's Spirit lead us and guided us into all the truth. Tom <www.upwardcall.net/warning06.html>

Something to consider about "selling for profit" In the New Testament we find an example of those selling scrolls and it was the pagans ! . Acts 19 states, " a number of those who practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly . When they calculated the value of the scrolls the total came to 50,000 drachmas"... Parchment was expensive and it was relatively much more costly than todays books . The scrolls circulated in the early church also had incredible eternal value , but were given for free . What a contrast. The Apostle Paul admonishes us "not to peddle Gods word for profit " A peddler by definition one who goes about selling something. How can it be that most church leaders who otherwise seem to want to do things the "biblical way" ,and "stand on the authority of Gods word " and desire to follow the example of Jesus and the Apostles are now created merchandise out of Gods teachings etc. and thus peddling ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Some on this forum ( yourself included ) have said that it was the WAY the sellers were merchandising that Jesus was coming against , but the Scriptures point to much more than that . " And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple (Mt.21,11) ...." and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple.(MK 11,16) Note it also includes buyers ! Jesus contrasted His Fathers House ( of prayer ) with a house of trade (Jn2 ,Lk19) NOT a house of fair trade vs robbery . The foundational issue was trade itself in the Temple . Also as noted before, In the N.T. it was the Pagans that were selling thier scrolls (Acts 19) , not the Apostles . We can't always go by what is practicle (...this brings in more funds )or pragmatic (...churches couldn't survive without merchandising etc.,which is false ) , but what is God the Fathers will . Please consider, Tom

A few months ago our church did what some might think is an illegal act . We taped a meeting discussion , which happened to include some songs we sang . We give the tapes away for free , but it was still illegal , according to Ceasar and a few very large church copyright organizations that control the usage of most worship music . Probably your church and many other congregations in the US (about 136,000) have signed up for and pay yearly for this license. (about $165 for 100 people etc.) Someone in your church fills out a form and informs them of how many times you sang such and such songs . The reasons for the license sounds practicle (to give the artist their royalties ) but they have created a system which I believe is based on mechandising ( see "Trading in the House of the Lord " post) <http://www.worthyboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16152> and makes outlaws of Christians who want no part of that system . Let me say , I do believe we should support those who minister to others , but by freewill offering , not by a usage fee. I think most are sincere in their service to God , but if someone says " ...the Lord GAVE me this song... " why not truly GIVE it to others in the body . ? Was it really illegal in the sight of God , that we sang some songs unto him , and recorded it to give to others as a gift ? . In Gods grace , Tom <www.upwardcall.net>

Something to consider about "selling for profit" In the New Testament we find an example of those selling scrolls and it was the pagans ! . Acts 19 states, " a number of those who practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly . When they calculated the value of the scrolls the total came to 50,000 drachmas"... Parchment was expensive and it was relatively much more costly than todays books . The scrolls circulated in the early church also had incredible eternal value , but were given for free . What a contrast. The Apostle Paul admonishes us "not to peddle Gods word for profit " A peddler by definition one who goes about selling something. How can it be that most church leaders who otherwise seem to want to do things the "biblical way" ,and "stand on the authority of Gods word " and desire to follow the example of Jesus and the Apostles are now created merchandise out of Gods teachings etc. and thus peddling ?

Amen Thomas Here is another scripture that states who the merchandisers are and what will happen to them if they don't repent. Ezekiel 28: 12 'Thus says the Lord God: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. 17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. 18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." ' " In CHRIST JESUS <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Amen , It is also written " Her priests teach for a price and her profits tell fortunes for money , Yet they lean upon the Lord and say , "Is not the Lord among us ?" No disaster will come upon us "... (MIC 3:11) Did not these things happened as warnings for us ?

Greetings in the name of our Lord , As Im starting my day , your words have refreshed my spirit . I agree we have to be more supportive of those serving. Concerning your last statement , I believe Gods Spirit is grieved also . "O Jerusalem , Jerusalem ".... May Gods grace be with you , For the kingdom, Tom

Trinity , I agree a church would need to cover cost of materials for items as tapes etc. If a church did not recover at least the cost in any size church it could create hardship on other ministries within the church that need funds to operate. In His Peace, Michael <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Greetings , Here is a brief addendum to objections that Ive recieved from the many posts relating to "Trading in the house of the Lord?" ( on this site and others ) First , No ministry "has to " resort to the merchandize method , as God has promised to provide when we in faith and love "give expecting nothing in return" . If they "couldnt survive ", maybe God never intended for them to be serving in that way . There are ministries that function without charging for books ,tapes ,etc. Second , The church was never intended to funtion as a business. You Will Not find that pattern in the New Testament ,and parchments , and travel was expensive in those days . Yes we can all work for a salary to earn a living , but that is fundamentaly different from serving in love and spreading the gospel , which should not be based on a transaction of money . We change the Foundational basis and nature of love when we bring that in . There is a major difference between the mutual giving of gifts and merchandizing . Our Lord gave warnings for those who alter his plan . I hope that this can be recieved , as I believe eternal rewards are at stake , In Christs Love, Tom

A little historical perspective might be helpful here. The selling of merchandise in the temple was not forbidden. Many people were visiting Jerusalem at the time, and needed to make their regular sacrifices. Since it's not practical to bring along your fatted calf on all of your travels, it was permissible to purchase an item to be sacrificed. The vendors were serving a legitimate need. But their zeal for commerce got out of control, and that's why Jesus rebuked them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Steve , What is the basis of your statement ? Was not the issue trade itself . for that's what the Lord said it was , not profiteering as you and the others have suggested . Also, nowhere in the Old testament did the Lord say that trade was permitted in his Temple . Please consider , Tom