Anguspure

I don't understand what that means. I have never studied Greek. I don't understand anout second death. We live and we die. If I understand this part correctly, if we accept Jesus, then we live in Heaven. But if we are still free will, it feels like it could become chaotic. I cannot get my mind around what Heaven would be like. I have been honest and you guys have responded honestly and not gotten angry, so I am going to say this too. There are some Christians that make people want to run, or shout back. They are pushy with "accept Jesus or burn in hell", (you must know what I mean, have seen those types), and I just think "welll, to me spending eternity with them would be hell". To me, forever with Benny Henn, Jerry Fallwell, ect to name a few,,, awful. I don't know how to learn what is right because I honestly know nothing but what I am told. That is why I am upset that the pastor and his wife are leaving. He did try to set me up with a lady to help me, but these questions made her so mad she quit and refused to speak to me ever again. I just felt, "well, I must not be good enough". They get so angry when I ask, but how else can I learn, if not asking those well grounded in their faith? I understand logically about Jesus, but I have not been able to make myself believe, feel it, something. Yet, I am still here, still seeking and asking questions, so some part of me must believe something. Sorry to be a bother here. Some of the more "spiritual" christian concepts seem to have their origins in Greek thought rather from the Hebrew in which our faith is founded. The idea of Heaven being some etheral pure realm (the sitting on clouds playing on harps one) is not found in the Bible, at least not in the context of the new heavens and the new earth. The idea of a Dante's inferno style hell is also extra Biblical mythology. My point is that the Bible is a whole lot more down to earth and iminent than the heady Greek spiritualism and than many would give it credit for, that is not to say that there aren't some difficult concepts to grasp but the essentials are simple enough for a child. We must be careful not to judge in a way that will bring that same judgement upon ourselves (take the log out of your own eye before having a look at the chip in your brother's) but I certainly know what you mean about some repulsive acts committed by Christians. Mind you so do the offenders, once they've turned around and they will cringe at the disrepute they've brought our Lord into. Nevertheless the proof is in the pudding. The truth is that the depth of our relationship and trust in God is revealed in our works and there is nothing that is evil that will survive in the presence of God. Good thing for the rest of us that He's keeping his distance for now. The fruit of our relationship with God is Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness and Self Control. If the person is not displaying these traits then you can be sure there is somthing wrong with his faith. Keep on looking mate, He will reveal himself when one of you is ready.

But what about Heaven? Will those there still have free will? If so, can they sin and get thrown from Heaven into hell? There must be freewill in eternity if there is to be Love. Why would Love be any different in eternity? The Bible does say that sin and death will eventually find their end , so I'm not sure what the consequence of making a choice to distrust God will be in His new world. Your view of heaven and hell seems to be very Greek. Heaven is where humanity becomes what it was meant to be. Hell is where those who don't want to be part of this find their 2nd death.

But what about Heaven? Will those there still have free will? If so, can they sin and get thrown from Heaven into hell? There must be freewill in eternity if there is to be Love. Why would Love be any different in eternity? The Bible does say that sin and death will eventually find their end , so I'm not sure what the consequence of making a choice to distrust God will be in His new world. Your view of heaven and hell seems to be very Greek. Heaven is where humanity becomes what it was meant to be. Hell is where those who don't want to be part of this find their 2nd death.

Don't know why anybody would be angered by your question. Its pretty fundamental. The essence of Love is freewill. God created us to Live in loving relationship with Him. A world in which we have no freewill is not a loving world. A socK puppet cannot love its creator, nor can it Love another sock puppet. A world with no choice between a relationship with the Creator and something else is not a world with free choice is it? So the choice we were given was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was the only choice. A&E were created good and had an open relationship with God. We could've trusted God and enjoyed relationship with him or we could've listened to the adversary, eaten of the tree and in that day we would be separated from him. We know who they chose to trust. Today we have another choice. We can choose to trust him, by beleiving the gospel of the death and ressurection of Jesus for the forgivness of sin, and so enjoy the beginnings of a relationship with him. Or we can chase after the knowledge of good and evil according to our own desires and end up dead. The question of what the world ruled by God will be like is related to who will be there. As you may have observed, the people involved in a relationship become more the one another the closer they relate to one another. In fact it is a really good way of determining how close a claimed realationship is, just look at an elderly couple who Love each other. The way Jesus taught us to asses whether a prophet claiming to speak the words of God is to look at the fruit he bears. Does what he is doing result in Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness and Self control, or not. Given that God is Love and only good, and no evil can reside in his presence, it makes sense that the one who has a close relationship with him will display the same attributes. The closer we get to Him, relationally speaking, the more Loving we become.

Ever looked at history? The record of truly free men that who have freely lived lives of goodness towards their fellowmen is very short. Most "good" men have seen themselves as servants of something that transcends themselves and this world. They have acted as obedient disciples of this greater good. I am moderately surprised that a secularist is taking this position anyway. If Good and evil cannot be attributed to God, then it must be some sort of evolutionary developement presumably as a result of natural selection. As we can see (in the light of this) there is no determination of good or evil beyond that which furthers the survival of myself and my species. Naturally speaking in evolutionary terms "good "is the furthering of my self interested survival through my progeny. There are many obvious examples of men who have committed these sorts of acts in the name of the continued well being their culture and progeny, according to God however these acts are evil.

It is by the grace, mercy and foresight of God that you are alive and have the chance to live a happy, healthy life in the first place. We should never forget that the default state of being is dead. God is the originator and sustainer of all life. Whether you choose to acknowledge this is of course another thing. A Life lived without reference to the source of that Life is ultimately meaningless. Our minds however are free to roam wherever they may go and if we choose to adopt a world view that deliberately excludes the creator we are quite able to adopt a happy, "healthy",and"meaningful" lifestyle. He gives us that freedom while we live here. But one only has to meet some of those who think they are poached eggs to see that this sort of happiness has a consequence that is death. Remember that the days of your life herein this world are fleeting and short. My Kids often want to know why they have to eat their vegetables they want to eat lollies all day long and they can't see the long term consequences of an unhealthy diet. In the same way we speak of our lives with little thoughT for the future. We can only see the few thousand days that we might have for the now and we tend to resent the suggestion that the harder way might be better for us in the long term. Notwithstanding this my God has made a way, by his own death, that is freely given and easy enough that if we trust him like a child trusts her Dad, we will continue to live and we can also live happy, healthy meaningful lives by acknowledging and giving love to our Creator and Sustainer..

If you truly beleive what you state then the following will have great significance for you:

We do not wish to re-sacrifice our saviour however:

I read a paper on this subject called: UNCONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY OR RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD (Is "The Wages Of Sin Death" Or "Eternal Life With Torment In Hell") by William Robert West. His teaching looks at the original Hebrew/Greek and challenges the very idea of a seperate human body and soul. He maintains that the ressurection and heaven are not some ghostly thing but are a concrete physical reality. Hell for this author becomes a place of eternal destruction and death as opposed to some sort of miserable eternal life. It has given me quite a bit of food for thought. Heres a link: http://robertwr.com/

Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit resides within and is the result of the relationship that exists between The Father and The Son. The Spirit is the relationship itself. When our relationship with God begins the Spirit begins residing within us. To grieve the Spirit is is to grieve God which harms the relationship between us. We are full of the Spirit when we are righteous and in good relationship with our Heavenly Father and he is thus able to work through us. Thats my thoughts anyway. Not on my own computer otherwise I would back it up with some scripture.

Humanism used to be called a religion. It would seem that the term "Religion" is synonymous with the term "World View" or "Ideaology".

The only time I have experienced this sort of fellowship was when we were living together as a community aboard one of the YWAM Mercy Ships. How sad that YWAM felt the need to write a book (called "Re-entry" from memory) about the dissillusionment that many of us would feel when we returned to the non-community based church.

And to think I nearly walked past this one. Very encouraging to feel the fire burning inside. Bless you Bro.

Coming from down under, I find this topic just a little distasteful. In my country the interpretation of "reasonable force" to defend oneself is such that the use of a fire arm, or any premeditated weapon would result in a conviction. The carriage or keeping of a weapon intended for use against a person implies that one fully intends to cause harm or death to them. Having discussed antipiracy measures with colleagues we have had to ask ourselves whether in the heat of the moment we would actually be prepared to kill a person in self defence and do the job properly because that is exactly what is needed in order to carry a fire arm safely (witness the unfortunate experience of Sir Peter Blake). None of us could say with confidence that we would. Biblically however I guess all things are permissable but not all things are beneficial so I guess nobody is under condemnation who causes death or injury in the process of defending themselves or others. However the aim of the Christian is to be Christ like in all circumstances. Is it Christ like to have the intention of blowing someones head off? By the way a sword and a gun are very different in combat. A sword may wound and disable a person without killing them. It would be unusual for a succesfull disabling gunshot wound to be survivable.

I live in one of the safest places on the planet. The only reason I have a gun is because sometimes I venture into places where I can get eaten by something big and hairy if I don't. I live in an even safer place, don't own a gun but have a Crossbow so I can shoot small hairy things and eat them. : P