brakelite

The contention that the apostles were "Catholic", as per denominational Catholic (capital 'C') is nonsense. That they were catholic, (small 'c') in a sense that they considered the salvation of God toward men universal, is debatable, at least in their early growth. But by no means were they 'denominationally' Catholic, and certainly not institutionally Catholic. Nor were those 3000 odd saved at Pentecost, the ones from so many cultures and languages and nations who took their new found faith home and were the first true missionaries or evangelists. Thus the gospel spread to all the world; to Ethiopia (via Philip's talk to the Ethiopian official), to Asia, India, Britain, even to China, long before there was any denominational or institutional religion set up in Rome, the "Catholic" church, capital 'C'. The apostle Paul spoke of a falling away from the faith to take place shortly after he would be gone. This falling away began in the second century, even within the second generation of Christians. He told the Thessalonian church in his letter that he had spoken previously on this matter, informing them as to who was instrumental in holding back the rise of Antichrist, thus completing the 'falling away' he was warning them of. Pagan Rome was that instrument, and when she fell, Papal Rome arose on the ashes of pagan Rome, inheriting her titles and throne, thus completing the apostasy and falling away Paul warned of. Meanwhile the true catholic faith spread throughout the world and became the living rebuke to the apostate church developing in Rome, and which became Rome's target for persecution and destruction for over 1000 years.

The righteousness of Christ is not a coat that covers unconfessed and unforsaken sin: it is a principle of life that is daily received by faith that transforms the character from the inside out, and controls the conduct and behavioural patterns and habits or addictions of all men and women who hunger and thirst after righteousness. Justification is that legal pardon which frees us from condemnation. Sanctification is that process by which we are freed from sin itself. The result is holiness. (Romans 6:17-22; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Thess.4:7; Leviticus 20:7; Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thess. 5:23,24; 2 Cor.7:1.) The gospel is not a lifeless theory. It is not just forgiveness of sin. It is not just a "get out of jail free" card. The gospel is a living mighty force that radically changes lives. Those who testify to the gospel, must also testify to its power. (2 Peter 1:3; Phil.1:9-11; Hebrews 12:1,2.)

The Jews not slaves? Rather ironic really considering their entire nation was occupied by a foreign power. Just as we are before we lay hold of that old rugged cross and believe the promises by which we can be partakers of the divine nature.

Okay.

If you had bothered to read my post properly you would have noted I said nothing about a defensive war against Iraq. The US occupation of Iraq was predicated on a defensive war against terrorism. Or at least what the US public were cajoled into believing was terrorism aka demolition of the twin towers. I am sure the US will leave Iraq as soon as her goals there are accomplished. Whatever they are. I guess that will be when the oil corporations and the Rothschilds say so. Same with Afghanistan I suppose. When the CIA have trafficked sufficient drugs into the US market to suit their needs, then they will pull out of there as well.

So being a defensive war against terrorism I guess the USA now permanently rules Iraq yes?

The Lord will perfect what concerns me. {Ps 138:8 } Most obviously the confidence which the psalmist here expressed was a divine confidence. He did not say, “I have grace enough to perfect what concerns me — my faith is so steady that it will not stagger — my love is so warm that it will never grow cold — my resolution is so firm that nothing can move it”; no, his dependence was on the Lord alone. If we indulge in any confidence which is not firmly resting on the Rock of Ages, our confidence is worse than a dream, it will fall on us, and cover us with its ruins, to our sorrow and confusion. All that nature spins time will unravel, to the eternal confusion of all who are clothed in it. The psalmist was wise, he rested on nothing short of the Lord’s work. It is the Lord who has begun the good work within us; it is he who has carried it on; and if he does not finish it, it never will be complete. If there is one stitch in the celestial garment of our righteousness which we are to insert ourselves, then we are lost; but this is our confidence, the Lord who began will perfect. He has done it all, must do it all, and will do it all. Our confidence must not be in what we have done, nor in what we have resolved to do, but entirely in what the Lord will do. Unbelief insinuates, “You will never be able to stand. Look at the evil of your heart, you can never conquer sin; remember the sinful pleasures and temptations of the world that come on you, you will be certainly allured by them and led astray.” Oh! yes, we would indeed perish if left to our own strength. If we had to navigate our frail vessels alone over so rough a sea, we might well give up the voyage in despair; but, thanks be to God, he will perfect what concerns us, and bring us to the desired haven. We can never be too confident when we confide in him alone, and never too much concerned to have such a trust. The above commentary comprised my morning devotion today, written by Charles Spurgeon. It referenced also 2Ch 19:1-20:37 The passage in Chronicles is one of the most uplifting and encouraging passages of OT scripture. It reveals that in those battles of life that we must face, particularly those in which we have no power or strength to fight, such as that battle over sin, the battle is the Lord's. He promises us victory. This is not just a positional victory where our victory is merely imputed unto us...a victory recorded in heaven while on earth the Midianites and Edomites walk all over us, no. This is a practical experiential victory where we must leave our comfort zones, and face the enemy head-on. Our confidence is not in our own strength or power, nor in our own righteousness. The result also is not our righteousness. But it is a righteousness in which we have been clothed and arrayed...a righteousness that reflects true glory and light and joy. And it is as we step out in faith; as we by fronting up to the enemy with confidence and faith in a God who cannot lie...a God who promises to fight our battles for us...then victory is assured. The Levites did not challenge Jehosaphat by charging him with legalism. They did not make remarks such as "Oh, so you think you are perfect do you?", or comments such as "Your righteousness is like filthy rags, you will never win this battle until you are in heaven". No, God's promise, and Israel's confidence was for victory today. So much so that after the battle, all Israel needed to do was pick up the spoils.

The Seventh Day Adventist church has been vilified for its interpretation of scripture regarding prophecy, in particular the day/year principle where for every prophetic day, one year is meant. This principle is found to be most accurate in several places, the most profound as you would be aware being Daniel 9:24 which speaks of the 70 'weeks', which is meant as 490 years. But another equally accurate number is found also in Daniel, as well as Revelation. The 1260 days...42 months...times, time, and half a time. This has two distinct applications, being the same time period, for two separate peoples. The oppressor, (Daniel 7:25; Revel.13:5; ) and the oppressed. (Revel. 11:3; 12:6,14). So what has this to do with the topic currently under discussion? Papal Primacy What is the real issue involved with the prophetic 1260 years and the topic under present discussion? The real issue is papal primacy. Papal Primacy is what the Papacy wants. She wants back what she had during those 1260 years. What is Papal Primacy? First Papal Primacy is not: Popularity It is not being the top civil or political leader in a country. It is not even whether everyone always accepts that primacy or not Papal Primacy during the 1260 years was being recognized BY LAW, to be the supreme teaching authority. It was recognizing that the papacy had the legal right to persecute and eradicate all whom she defined as heritics. Papal power resided in her stance of having the very keys over who would enjoy eternal life, or suffer the wrath of God. A faulty application of Matt. 16:19's "bind and loose" was used to give the papacy power to intimidate even powerful kings into obedience in executing their agendas. The issue isn't whether people liked it or not-- many didn't. The issue isn't whether the papacy suffered weak points during those years. We know there were even times when there were several "popes" fighting for the position. The issue is an entire era, covering 1260 years when papal primacy was established by law. This is highly significant when considering Revelation 13 and a future ecumenical global religion enforcing, by law, her dogmas and doctrines, even under pain of death. The 1260 years past, beginning with Justinian's code of law, and ending with Napoleon's code of law. 538AD to 1798AD. 1260 years. The issue is papal primacy and the authority to enforce that primacy by civil law and with the use of civil power. The papacy is not satisfied to be "one of the body" of Christian churches. NO, NO, NEVER! She must be the leader, and controller--- THROUGH LEGISLATION AND SHE HAS MADE THIS VERY PLAIN In an official four page "note" after the release of the Vatican Declaration Dominus Deus which reaffirmed the Papal position of Primacy by Pope John Paul II, the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, (later Pope Benedict 16th) who was the "Prefect" of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith (Note: that means he was head of the re-established and renamed Office of the Inquisition) stated: "when the expression 'sister churches' is used in the proper sense, the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Universal Church is not (meant to be) sister but MOTHER of all particular churches. This is not merely a question of terminology, but above all of respecting a basic truth of the Catholic faith: that of the unicity of the Church of Jesus Christ." Rev. 17 jumps to mind-- Mystery Babylon, the mother..... This is the primacy that lead to the 1260 years of papal persecution, when that primacy using the power of the state (the kings) to force people into compliance. Otto Gierke, speaking of Pope Gregory VII (Pope from 1073-1085) writes in "Political Theories of the Middle Ages", p.11-12 "If mankind be only one, and if there can be but one State that comprises all mankind, that State can be no other than the Church that God Himself has founded, and all temporal lordship can be valid only in so far as it is part and parcel of the Church. Therefore the Church, being the one true State, has received by a mandate from God the plenitude of all spiritual and temporal powers, they being integral parts of One Might. The Head of this all embracing State is Christ. BUT, as the Unity of Mankind is to be realized already in this world, His celestial kingship must have a terrestrial presentment. As Christ's Vice-Regent, the earthly Head of the Church is the one and only Head of all Mankind. The Pope is the wielder of what is in principle an Empire (principatus) over the Community of Mortals. He is their Priest and their King; their spiritual and temporal Monarch; their Lawgiver and judge in all causes supreme. Gregory VII (Pope from 1073-1085) was probably the first pope to claim UNIVERSAL jurisdiction, he issued his Dictatus Papae, containing twenty-seven propositions about the powers of the pope, which declared he was over kings and emperors. ( See "Lives of the Popes, by Richard McBrien, page 186 ) But we see popes crowning and anointing kings and emperors well before that time. Stephen IV anointed and crowned Louis as successor to Charlemagne in 816. Leo III was the pope who crowned Charlemagne. As early as 492 Pope Gelasius claimed the title "Vicar of Christ". According to Richard McBrien in "Lives of the Popes" p. 80-81 Gelasius I, (pope from 492-496) Wrote a series of letters which read more like legal briefs in defence of papal primacy by appealing to the theory of "two powers" or "two swords" (the spiritual and the temporal) each power has its own sphere BUT the spiritual power is superior to the temporal. Even earlier, Pope Leo the Great (r. 440-461) was promoting the right to primacy and asserting that Peter, above all the disciples was given this right. In a letter to the Bishop of Vienna (according "The Faith of the Early Fathers" (FEF), 3 volumes, Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1970, vol. 3, p. 269;) Pope Leo wrote: "Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed Apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be pre-eminent over the others . . . the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head." (Quote also found in Tract: The Authority of the Pope: Part II, Catholic Answers) So early on we see the papal authority asserting it's sovereignty over spiritual power, of which it claimed to be the head. The civil leaders were merely the police department of the Church to be used to further it's aims. With the fall of the western Roman Empire, the church took over the vacated prerogatives of that position. The introduction into law Justinian's code in 533AD and its establishment of Justinian's law in Rome in 538 legally declared the Pope as the "head of all churches". Napoleon's law written in 1793 and enacted in Rome 1798, reversed this. However, the Lateran Treaty in 1929 saw the Pope reinstated as a civil ruler. The wound was healed. Revelation reveals the beast will be granted, for a short time, global dominion, which will afford him the opportunity to legislate and enforce one particular doctrine he favours above all others. Sunday sacredness.

While it is true that the blood of Christ brings us justification...makes us right before God...Christ's work is not finished. Calvary, that place where the blood was shed for us, was but the first step in a process that eventually will bring us salvation. The gospel did not finish at the cross. The gospel also incorporates the ministry of Christ in heaven. HIs intercession on our behalf has as much to do with our salvation as did His death. Of what purpose would the slain lamb have accomplished if the blood was not carried into the sanctuary?

The interesting thing is though my friends, even despite the need of bishops and teachers as per scripture, we are to test everything. Like Bereans. And at no time does apostasy ever come from the laity. The rot always grows down from the top. Apostate churches are very much like the New Zealand rata tree. It begins as a small vine, with a flower that closely resembles the flower of the magnificent Pohutukawa tree. The vine begins as a seed caught in the boughs of a host tree. The vine grows downward, roots into the earth, then rises again to entwine the entire tree, the vine growing ticker and thicker until it looks like a tree in its own right, completely engulfing the host. The landscape of some native forests in NZ can be seen with white skeletons standing above the rest of the regenerating forest after logging 120 years ago. The rata was the only trees not logged. Why? Because when you cut into them, they are hollow. The wood is great for firewood, but useless for timber. Such a perfect analogy for Catholicism. The early Christian church was pure. But Catholicism took over and smothered the life out of it. Satan would dearly love to destroy Christ Himself, but he has to be satisfied with attacking Christs dearest possession. His beloved bride. But there will be a remnant who will refuse to bow their knee to Baal. There always is.

Oh. I was hoping that if you responded at all, you would cite scripture for your answer. But those famous theologians named above surely used scripture to defend man's natural immortality. I just remembered one, so my assertion previously that there is no scripture supporting man's natural immortality was an error. Genesis 3:4. Do you think it really matters that it is a quote from the father of lies? Maybe this once, he was telling the truth you think? Perhaps his name should be included in your list whose company you prefer?

No. And there is not one scripture in the entire word of God suggesting anyone is immortal apart from those to whom mortality is given as a gift. We all know who they are.

Note that those who had surrounded the city were 'consumed'. Now we all know that God Himself is a consuming fire. This fire that consumes all that sought to take over the throne was from God Himself. Note also that this takes pace on the surface of the planet. The fire forms a lake...on the surface of the planet...and the devil and his demons will be thrown in among them. This lake of fire cachet last for all eternity, because we know that there is a new heavens to be created, but more importantly, a new earth,,,right where that lake is burning! So by the time a new earth is made, that fire, that consuming fire, has done its work. It has consumed those for whom it was intended. They are now eternally dead, destroyed, perished, "as if they had never been". Yes, they did suffer in torment for a time; day and night "forever and ever", which does not mean eternal or infinite. Sinners, nor the devil, are immortal. The fire that destroys all sinners, also destroys all the pollution, rubble, filth, poisons and toxins that resulted from the 7 last plagues of a 1000 years previous. No-one was alive on the planet during that time. Except Satan. It needed a second resurrection to bring those wicked people alive to face the final execution of their judgment. That execution was death, just as Romans 6:23 tells us.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? AKJV — 1Peter 4:17

http://libertymagazine.org/article/whats-yours-is-mine-no-treaties-no-boundary-lines

Hi. Wow. I agree entirely with your timeline, and your reasoning. Certainly we are not witnessing yet that final outpouring of true Pentecostal power you speak of. However there is another perspective that parallels and dovetails into the above scenario. The latter rain metaphor has another purpose aside from the power that gives the final push to the gospel before the end. ITT if that other purpose I see as beginning to work today, and is a part of the'awakening"we speak of... And that has the effect of ripening fruit for the harvest. The deep and full development of character in the child of God that prepares him for the final crisis. I see that taking place today. There is a work going on in the church that is dividing now the sheep from the goats. Judgement has begun in the house of God. Decisions for and against righteousness are now being made for eternity. The harvest is ripening and the end is close.

Praise God for His goodness and mercy is forever. I remember distinctly the first day after being reborn the night before. I looked outside through my kitchen window up at the nearby mountain, and was astonished at the colours...the clarity...the vividness of everything. I had to go the front door and view the opposite direction to check I wasn't seeing things. Nuh, the same that way also. Everything was brighter, clearer, more sensual. I knew this was not just a new day, but a new life. Everything I had of the old life went into the fire that day. Magazines, music, books. Then a little later, my dope. The next day I owned my first Bible. From the moment I got out of bed that first morning, I knew I was a new person. I was 24 years old. Then I entered into the warfare; that war between good and evil over territory which we cede to the victor. The war over our minds. It is in our thinking that defines who we are, and what we do, and how our characters are revealed to the world. Once the mind is won, the body belongs to the victor. Today, the battle still rages. The greatest battle any person will fight is with self. Though the old man is dead in Christ, 'self' must die daily. Is that a contradiction? No, for it is through our declaration by faith...our confessing of truth as revealed in the Bible, our testimony to those things which we in our hearts and minds truly believe, that spiritual truths are experientially manifested in our lives. The just shall live by his faith. Daily we must reset our minds to function according to God's will and purpose. The rest we leave with Him.

Quite true. Nor is casting it aside because one thinks it isn't enough. But I have read reports of regular prayer and Bible studies in the white house. Not being American it isn't something I can personally verify by rocking up to the white house and having a look-see, but I have no reason to presume such is not taking place...a good thing as far as I am concerned. Is even that enough? No. Only by deep heart felt mourning and repentance of sin by the individual American people is there any hope of stemming the tide of coming judgement...but that doesn't apply to just America. I would suggest that the US is in a better state than many other countries around the place. America has had great light with regards the gospel. Great light however brings with it great responsibility. So long as folk don't put their faith in their government or an individual president to bring about revival, or 'greatness', then your nation may find hope.

That said, it may be that I need to clarify what I mean by 'positional standing'...by that I mean who I am experientially...not what I have spiritually in Christ. I can see that I may have that terminology back to front to the theologians in our midst. My apologies if there is any confusion.

According to my Bible Christians are grafted onto the olive tree. We have Abraham as our father. Ezekiel 9 applies to both the church and Israel. Today, only the church. Those who were slaughtered have long gone, those who were sealed in their foreheads formed the nucleus of the church. There is always a remnant. What do you suppose is that 'mark' in the foreheads of them that weep over the sins in their midst today?

Absolutely. As you said, "the just shall live by faith". Not his own faith as is commonly mistranslated, but the faith of Jesus. This faith even is a gift from above. I am sure Gideon agrees with you, and it is our focus on our positional standing that destroys faith. But let us not give consideration to our positional standing. How can we confess our sins if we don't acknowledge them? How can we acknowledge them if we don't examine ourselves and be honest about where we are and what we are doing? There is little need to interview anyone. Christians themselves cry from the rooftops their faulty characters and need of healing. I don't know about you, but sighing and crying for the abominations done in Israel comes as a result of our closer walk with Jesus, not because we need to ask anyone where they're at. Sin in the church is becoming obvious, more obnoxious, and more prevalent as the days between now and the coming of the Bridegroom to take His bride home become less. Part of the falling away I guess. And recognition of that is I suppose part of the awakening, spoken of in another thread. The latter rain is beginning to fall, (not the counterfeit that charismatics claim as exclusively theirs) and those unprepared not only fail to recognize it, but reject any reference or suggestion regarding its existence. Such is the blindness in Israel.

7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he (Proverbs 23:7)

Regarding the 'falling away' and the 'awakening' spoken of previously in this thread.We are all familiar with the parable of the wheat and the tares. The gardeners wanted to tear out the tares straight away, but the owner said no, wait until the harvest. Why? Because the fruit would be more discernible, and therefore identification certain. In the church today we are witnessing a widening chasm between the wheat and the tares, in a church now being prepared by the Bridegroom for His appearing. This gap is being brought about by God Himself. It isn't about doctrinal accuracy. It isn't about church or denominational affiliation. It's about character. It's about the difference between those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, and are thus filled, and those who like the Laodiceans are content with their nakedness. It's about the difference between those who have accepted the wedding garment granted as a gift by faith, and those who devise their own fashions and set their own standards. It's about the difference between those who like their Master, loathe sin in all its insidious and odious forms, would rather die and burn than compromise, and those who refuse to call sin by its right name, and reduce Christ and His sacrifice at Calvary to a convenient sacrificial lamb grazing in the back paddock to be brought out only on occasions of selfish need. As I said, that gap is widening. There are many who today profess faith in Christ, but through love of the world and selfish pleasure are falling further and further away from HIm. These ones do not like to be reminded that God requires, expects, a return on His investment. They have many great gifts and means by which they could accomplish wonderful things on behalf of the gospel, but they have chosen to use these gifts/talents for themselves. They are lovers of themselves rather than lovers of God. And when this fault is revealed, they think it refers to others, not themselves. To them is Jesus's admonishment given, "buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Revelation 3:18. When someone comes along with a little fire in their belly, exalting righteousness and upholding holiness, such a message is an offense to them. They would rather put out that fire, and have that person ejected from their company. There are others however who welcome such a one in their midst. Who welcome his message, and see only good coming from it, if heeded. These ones seek only to grow nearer to their Savior. They understand that even in their own hearts, may lie depths of depravity yet to be exposed and dealt with. They welcome the encouragement that the word of God gives, reminding them that there is a power from above, and a God who loves them, which if they believe, will bring them freedom and hope. They long to be in that position where the promise of Romans 8:1 becomes an experiential reality, where they cleave to the promise of 2 Peter 1 and are willing and eager to partake of and take every advantage of the divine nature that guarantees an abundant life filled with the glorious fruits of righteousness which inform all of which side they are on.

one can be fully assured that we will NOT be saved except we repent, turn away from, and repudiate every last vestige of wickedness and sin in the life. There are numerous promises in the scripture which guarantee, because God cannot lie, that we can overcome sin. That sin shall NOT have dominion over us, but that we shall have dominion over sin. The concept that we will sin till the day we die is a denial of the power of God, and can become, and is used as an excuse for disobedience. As I said previously, in the OT sanctuary service the altar of sacrifice was only the very first step in God's plan of salvation for Israel. And the altar represents Calvary. But Israel was not saved at the altar. Israel did not celebrate their complete emancipation from sin until the end of the day of atonement when the high priest came out of the most holy place to once again appear before the people. This departing of the high priest from the most holy place represents the departure of Jesus, our High Priest, out of the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary and come the second time to earth to take His justified, sanctified, and soon to be glorified people home.

@Gideon I get it. KJV Ephesians 3 Paul's Prayer 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.