SoGrateful

The NT churches spread the gospel and confirmed it’s truth with signs and wonders “… and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.” (Acts 2:43, 5:12). The NT churches were given powerful spiritual gifts to be used in the church and for evangelism “There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit … the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healings, the working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues.” (1 Corinthians 12:4-11) Paul was trained by the Lord for 17 years (Galatians 1:11--2:1), but … “… my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 1:5) The apostles warned that false teachers and false doctrines were coming “… there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies … And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words …” (2 Peter 2:1-3) Also see 2 Cor. 4:2, Eph. 4:14, Eph. 5:15-17, Col. 2:22, 1 Tim. 1:10, 2 Tim. 3:13, 2 Tim. 4:3-4, Heb. 13:9 The 2 major causes of the EARLY destruction of the spiritual gifts in the Christian church: First, we must recognize Satan and his powerful influence Satan, our mortal enemy, is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world. “the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). “there is no truth in him ... he is liar and the father of it” (John 8:44). “the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4) … and … “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31). No one works against God and His purposes with more fury than Satan. He obviously attacks those who have the most spiritual power and authority. And he obviously attacks the doctrines that have the most spiritual power attached to them. Second, the “have-not” church leaders were an obvious problem The Lord did NOT give powerful spiritual gifts to everyone in the NT churches. These gifts were special anointings, which were connected with the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Naturally, those who did NOT have these spiritual gifts were jealous of those who had them. The “have-nots” in church authority had to find a way to protect their prestigious positions. They decided that pointing to 1 Corinthians 13:10 was their safest and best excuse. And many “have-not” church members went along with this rationalization. 1 Corinthians 13: 8 … But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect (complete) has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as also am known. “But when that which is perfect (complete) has come” … the NKJV footnote says: “Most likely, this is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ and the completion of all things (see verse 12). But some have interpreted this as referring to the completion of the NT canon.” As far as the NT canon being "that which is perfect" … it simply cannot be what Paul meant. Good exegesis simply disallows this interpretation. Paul was writing to the church at Corinth and he was writing things that were perfectly understandable to them. They had no way of knowing that there was even going to be a New Testament canon when Paul wrote this. I don't believe the Holy Spirit would have inspired Paul to write something to them that would have been totally incomprehensible because this was not at all a prophetic writing. “For now we see in a mirror dimly” … the NKJV footnote refers to Philippians 3:12 … “Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.” “face to face” … the NKJV footnote refers to 1 John 3:2 … “Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.” The inevitable result of this major doctrinal change There was a steadily-decreasing belief in this baptism and its’ resulting spiritual gifts. Unbelief, and the lack of seeking these blessings, resulted in fewer and fewer people receiving them. So, belief in the doctrine of the “second blessing”, and the knowledge that the spiritual gifts had not passed away, spiraled downward, and a great many dry years followed … until the early 1900’s.

Good, you're past the "only one baptism" nonsense. Now you need to get a revelation of what "the baptism with the Holy Spirit" really is! Hint: it's not the salvation baptism mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:13. The info you need is in this thread ...

Never been a shepherd. Watched a lot of 'em in Bulgaria. I only brought the verses to your attention to help you, sorry! Any other complaints, or is that it for today?

Fez ain't qualified to make a proper response to my challenge that ... 99.9% OF AMERICANS DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SHEPHERDS AND SHEEP! 'Cause she's from Sud Africa, for cryin' out loud! Fez, can you hear me down there?

If we don't understand the depths of the relationship between shepherds and their sheep ... we obviously don't understand the depths of what Jesus is talking about concerning this.

I really appreciate your post ... and, yes, I've heard this before. However, there are obviously more than one baptism mentioned in the NT. You might speak to the baptism with fire verses ... and the baptism with the Holy Spirit verses in which the Spirit comes UPON people, which has nothing to do with salvation.

His "evidently" shows that he's not so sure. How does this verse, and da water baptism verses, and da fire baptism verses, fit into his/your theory? “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church) … and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13) Anyone with a brain should be able to see more than one baptism! Don't trust what man says (your big C may not even be born-again) ... trust the word and the Spirit.

Yeah, you're right ... let's just throw all of those other verses into the trash, and sleep happily ever after with the big E45. Thanks ... thou art a great blessing indeed.

Methunks we've found another one who believes he knows everything about shepherds and sheep! 'Dis must be our lucky day!

Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms (plural), of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. This kind of throws a monkey-wrench into the theory of only “one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5). There are several theories about what Paul was talking about, which can be researched. The following is my "doctrine of baptisms" … Baptism into the church (salvation) --- Baptizer: the Holy Spirit This does not refer to a phony salvation, which has always been quite prevalent, i.e. merely an intellectual belief, or conversion of one’s thinking. But this refers to being “born again (from above)” with the Holy Spirit entering the person. “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church) … and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13) The Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the believer … John 14:16-23, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16. So, I classify this baptism as the one where the Holy Spirit comes “inside” people. Baptism in water (a symbolic demonstration of faith) --- Baptizer: man Full-immersion baptism in water is symbolic, being the outward expression of inward faith. Any other type of water baptism is unscriptural and just dreamed up by man. Paul said, “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17). We are justified by God’s gift of grace through faith, and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Baptism with the Holy Spirit (an anointing power for ministry) --- Baptizer: Jesus Christ John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33). This does not refer to salvation. But this refers the Holy Spirit coming UPON the believer … Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 19:5-6. This baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after a person is born again (or at the same time). So, I classify this baptism as the one where the Holy Spirit comes “upon” people. Note: Approx. 8 times in the OT, the Spirit came UPON God's prophets as an ANOINTING to prophecy, etc. I believe only twice did a prophet say the Spirit came INSIDE of him. Now I ask you, wasn't it a tad difficult for them to know if the Spirit was upon them or inside of them? IMO, only if God told them directly, would they know for sure. In those 2 cases, the prophet was mistaken. [Muslims would love this ... a prophet mistaken! They insist that all of God's prophets were sinless.] Baptism with fire (extreme suffering for the gospel’s sake) --- Baptizer: Jesus Christ John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with fire (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16). Jesus asked His 12 disciples if they were able to be martyrs after Him: “Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” (Matthew 20:22-23). Jesus told His 12 disciples that they would be martyrs after Him: “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with …” (Mark 10:38-39). All of the baptisms are glorious blessings, even the baptism with fire: “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake” (Matthew 5:10).

Great ... I realize that you think you know everything, but if you'd like to really learn about this, you should read books such as: http://www.amazon.co...3/dp/0310274419

How could there be just one baptism when we have Hebrews 6:1-2 ... post #5 is mandatory reading! Try it ... you might like it.

Could you give the Article link on what you base that information about "MOST" American's, and how the study was conducted. Thank you. Most Americans are not shepherds AND/OR they have not studied the subject. Mostly AND.

The sheep of the “new covenant” will be given eternal life “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant … I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people … they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Also see Ezekiel 36:25-27. “… let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, … For in these I delight,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 9:23-24) The 2-way relationship between Jesus and His sheep results in eternal life “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. … I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. … and I know My sheep, and am known by My own … and I lay down My life for the sheep. … My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.” (John 10:7-28) The sheep know Father God and Jesus, resulting in eternal life “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3) The Holy Spirit dwells within each of God’s sheep “And I (Jesus) will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth … you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. … If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with(in) him.”(John 14:16-23) God’s precious sheep have God dwelling inside of them. “And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.” (1 John 3:24) The sheep are led by the Holy Spirit, resulting in eternal life “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:14) The sheep allow themselves to be sanctified “Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His”, and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:19) Jesus will reject those who are not His sheep “Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven … I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”(Matthew 7:19-21) It is God’s will that His sheep have a relationship with Jesus, and do God’s will. The sheep are God’s elect, i.e. the ones destined to gain eternal life “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined … whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30) Many blessings come from a knowing intimacy with the Lord “Out of intimacy with Jesus we receive discernment, direction, a knowing of what is right and wrong and what is holy and pure. Intimacy with Christ gives us a firmness wherein we are not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Stay close to Him so that you will have discernment about the foolishness going on around us.” (David Wilkerson, 2012) One question ... Did Jesus create sheep (with their unique characteristics) expressly to demonstrate to us how we should obediently trust and follow Him? One promise ... Most Americans have no idea what the true characteristics of sheep really are! Therefore, we are at quite a disadvantage when we read in the Bible about the 2-way relationship between Jesus and His sheep.

These 7 verses show the Holy Spirit is INSIDE believers: John 14:16-23, Romans 8:11, 1 Cor. 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16 There is absolutely NO mention of the Holy Spirit coming UPON or resting UPON anyone. These 7 verses show the Holy Spirit comes UPON believers when receiving the Holy Spirit baptism: Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 19:5-6 There is absolutely NO mention of the Holy Spirit being INSIDE, moving INSIDE, etc. In these 7 passages, UPON is linked with: Luke 24:49 ------ the promise … power Acts 1:4-8 –----- the promise … power … baptism with Holy Spirit Acts 8:14-19 –-- power … received Holy Spirit … laying on of hands Acts 2:1-4 –----- speaking in tongues … filled with Holy Spirit Acts 10:44-48 -- speaking in tongues … received Holy Spirit … the gift Acts 19:5-6 ----- speaking in tongues … baptism with Holy Spirit … laying on of hands Acts 11:15-17 -- baptism with Holy Spirit … the gift Please note that "promise" and "gift" are referring to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, not salvation. Please note that "power" is referring to spiritual power from God.