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ENOCH2010

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  1. Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years! Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider! So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not! Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord. Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus. If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture. I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory? Luk. 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it? Lamad Lamad the verse you would do well to try and understand is Blessed and Holy are the ones included in the first resurrection, Rev.20 . The Bible says Only 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remain in our future, they are both described in Rev. 20, the rapture has to be involved with the one called the first resurrection, not at some fantasy resurrection not mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't matter how much the pre-tribbers try and spin the Bible passages into something that tickles the ear, the fact remains, the first resurrection is when the rapture happens, not anytime pre-trib. And there can be only 1 first, not a dozen firsts and 1 second. Why is this so hard for you to understand? There is one resurrection for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. That is as plain as day. What you are missing is that Jesus was the VERY FIRST ONE to be resurrected in the "first resurrection." Those that rose with Him from the Old Covenant were secondfruits, theirfruits, fourthfruits, etc. of the SAME first resurrection. Soon the Dead in Christ will become fruits of that same "first resurrection" just before the 70th week begins. After that the 144,000 will become a part of it, around the midpoint of the 70th week. Then at the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise, and they also will be a part of the "first resurrection." Perhaps at the same time, those beheaded during the week will be resurrected. They too are a part of the "first resurrection." It is the resurrection for the righteous. But it comes in WAVES. Your mistake? Trying to pin down the "first resurrection" to a time. Jesus was the FIRST human in the "first resurrection." There is no "fantasy" time for the rapture, there is PAUL's time. If you miss it, and get left behind, you have only yourself to blame, for Paul wrote it very clearly. A 5th grader could get it, because they would read with no preconceptions. Paul's rapture comes as the TRIGGER for the signs of the Day as is written at the 6th seal. John saw the raptured church in heaven shortely thereafter in Chapter 7. End of story, case closed. God is pretrib. If you are not, you are outside of what God believes. Lamad The fantasy you are claiming isn't the rapture Lamad. The fantasy is that there will be a dozen or so first resurrections when the Bible says there will be only 1 and the Bible plainly says it will be at the second coming of the Lord. If the pre-tribbers would receive the Bible for what it says, not for what they wish it said, there wouldn't be so much confusion coming from the pulpit.
  2. Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years! Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider! So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not! Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord. Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus. If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture. I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory? Luk. 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it? Lamad Lamad the verse you would do well to try and understand is Blessed and Holy are the ones included in the first resurrection, Rev.20 . The Bible says Only 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remain in our future, they are both described in Rev. 20, the rapture has to be involved with the one called the first resurrection, not at some fantasy resurrection not mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't matter how much the pre-tribbers try and spin the Bible passages into something that tickles the ear, the fact remains, the first resurrection is when the rapture happens, not anytime pre-trib. And there can be only 1 first, not a dozen firsts and 1 second.
  3. Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years! Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider! So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not! Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord.
  4. Roy, a pre-triber, has a habit of, when reading something in the Bible that don't fit their theology they just ignore it and try to convince everybody that what they just read means something other than what it says.
  5. The ones that take part in the first resurrection are called blessed and holy. The blessing is not having to go through the end time events, we all know that the blood of Jesus makes them holy. The one's alive when the end time events arrive will endure to the end or be killed, either way our destiny is to be a witness for the Lord. Our destiny isn't to be whisk away right when we are needed.
  6. Well why do you teach the pre-trib doctrine to escape the tribulation, when the righteous have the opportunity to be such a witness in a time of much trouble. The pre-trib doctrine teaches that the church is going to be whisk away before their destiny can be achieved.
  7. No that's not at all what the Bible says, that is what people infer
  8. I'm just going with what the Bible says the bride is Marv It says come I'll show ye the bride, what did he see, he saw the holy city coming down from God
  9. Read the 21st chapter of Rev. and see if the bride of Christ is the church, or the New City.
  10. Lamad one thing you have to realize is the group of saints you keep talking about around the throne, are saints that have died during the past 2000 or so years. No-where in the Bible is it said that this group are the raptured saints. When a saint dies their soul or spirit (I don't know which) goes to be with the Lord. Those are the same saints the Lord brings back with Him to be reunited with their new body at the second coming.
  11. John, the 1000 year reign of Christ is going to be a theocracy.
  12. Those measurements are for the new Jerusalem , that would be 1500 miles square at it's base and 1500 miles high at it's peak. Heaven is everything you see above you.
  13. I don't think so,i'm looking for the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 to start any day
  14. I remember reading it from a pre-trib author when I was a new believer. If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was Hal Lindsey in the Late Great Planet Earth. This belief became popular, since pre-tribbers believed the church is raptured out before the so-called 7 yr. tribulation, some claimed the 144,000 would then evangelize the world. These post-rapture believers would then become either the martyrs who would refuse the mark of the beast or they could try to survive until the second coming and be ruled over by the saints that return with Christ. I still have that book, but it's been many years since I read it (1990), but I believe that was what Hal believed in a nutshell. But regardless of whether I pegged Hal as the correct author or not, I agree with you that this is not taught in scripture. It's just another false assumption. Yes, Hal was the one who propigated that view within his books; it may have started before that, I do not know. Was it to enhance his books? Maybe. Kind of like having a special character or circumstance repeat itself in a book to hold your attentiion. But then it became as fact and not fiction. Then it took off In Christ Montana Marv About like the pre-trib doctrine ? Enoch And what about the Post Trib doctrine: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols........ If one does the math. Start out with the "whole", then say removed 1/3 from the "whole" amount: What is left, but "The Rest" of the whole amount. These who are left were those who were not killed by these plagues. In Christ Montana Marv Marv I don't think that is talking about every person in the world, because there is a multitude of people that no man can number, from every nation coming out of the great tribulation. Is that saying the number can't be counted, or is that saying it will be a big crowd. Now days it is possible to count to a pretty high number, what is the population of Earth right now, around 8 billion.
  15. I remember reading it from a pre-trib author when I was a new believer. If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was Hal Lindsey in the Late Great Planet Earth. This belief became popular, since pre-tribbers believed the church is raptured out before the so-called 7 yr. tribulation, some claimed the 144,000 would then evangelize the world. These post-rapture believers would then become either the martyrs who would refuse the mark of the beast or they could try to survive until the second coming and be ruled over by the saints that return with Christ. I still have that book, but it's been many years since I read it (1990), but I believe that was what Hal believed in a nutshell. But regardless of whether I pegged Hal as the correct author or not, I agree with you that this is not taught in scripture. It's just another false assumption. Yes, Hal was the one who propigated that view within his books; it may have started before that, I do not know. Was it to enhance his books? Maybe. Kind of like having a special character or circumstance repeat itself in a book to hold your attentiion. But then it became as fact and not fiction. Then it took off In Christ Montana Marv About like the pre-trib doctrine ?
  16. well you obviously have a completely different translation of what the bible teaches. Marv was snipping the mis-spelling of Revelation. Marv may be a pre-tribber but I'm pretty sure he reads the Bible.
  17. I'm a post-trib believer, and ready for what is ahead. The part that seems out of place is he comes as a thief, they seem to be preparing for his arrival, thinking they can defeat him. A thief comes when no one is expecting them.
  18. I have wondered the same thing,it seems out of place, as the spirits are preparing the whole world for battle, they are expecting the return of the Lord and think they can win the battle.
  19. I believe the rapture can happen after the first few martyrs refuse the mark of the beast, since they are shown clearly as being among the FIRST RESURRECTION..............since Paul says we will not procede the dead in Christ.........they must be resurrected First Curious , Just exactly by definition , what do you think a rapture is and why is one used? set aside any timing of 'when' it should happen and focus on precisely what it is and what its purpose is . Since there are already untold millions of people who are already dead in Christ ,,there is no requirement for the people who refuse the mark of the beast to take place before the rapture can happen as there is no scripture that states the mark of the beast has to be implemented before the rapture can happen, as Paul has only stated that before Jesus returns to earth the son of perdition must be revealed. Getting back to the 'why' the rapture happens, how do you define what a rapture is ? Why is there such an event , what purpose do you believe it is for? scripture is clear that when it happens believer go UP into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air and NO people see it happen At Jesus 2nd coming he seen by many people coming to earth and as I said in the other thread we need to agree on how many resurrections there are I believe in two the first is the resurrection of all who died since Christ and second resurrection all who ever lived on earth if you agree then we can procede The pre-trib doctrine has to add another resurrection to go along with the secret rapture that they claim happens before the first resurrection. Should we call it the pre-first resurrection, resurrection?
  20. They are judging the nations
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