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Daniel59

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About Daniel59

  • Birthday 03/08/1959

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  1. OK, got it thanks, I figured something to that effect, just struck me funny. actually was considering the creator of an entity so as flesh could have a grasp or human figure to picture to help in the understanding Spirit of God . But i prefer "...the beginning of God's creation." Thanks everyone.
  2. Ok, I’m having trouble wrapping my flesh brain around this scripture. 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Rev 3:14 (KJV) John is writing of Jesus words here in Revelations. I understand Jesus is God, God is infinite, God is the creator of everything, etc.. I get way past a flesh image of life and have a more comfortable and confident view of spiritual life. But for some reason this passage sticks with me, having trouble grasping it. Any one care to help? Ok, so Jesus is God, Jesus sits at the right hand, meaning the force behind, the teacher, the lord, the rule maker, the sacrifice, etc… But “the beginning of the creation of God; Rev 3:14” Jesus / God is the creation of God?
  3. Thank you also, I will heed your warning and and appreciative that you stayed calm with wisdom I see you answered my OP question which is a tremendous help Thanks again
  4. I am not stating two creations , merely that God commanded The Us whoever they are, created man/women through or with God, and God creaated a man whom he placed in the Garden. Not sure about when the Garden was created but it seems seperate timing as God Placed the Man whom He created in it. Still 6 day creation, still sinlless, just that Let Us Create Man in Our Image is a seperate event than God creating a man in his image. Still all Gods creation. Thanks, Daniel, this is a good example for us to look at. So you are not stating two creations, you are stating that in Ge 1:27 God commanded the "us" of Ge 1:26, and so they are separate events, because the "us" of 1:26 indicates to you someone outside the Godhead (Trinity), which the "God" of 1:27 does not. So let's see if that is in agreement with the Word of God written, and if our understanding is correct. 1) Ge 1:26 states, "God said, 'Let us create man in our image. . .' " However, this wording shows that God didn't command the "us" in Ge 1:27, God included himself in the "us" in Ge 1:26, He is the "us" of Ge 1:26, and the "God" of Ge 1:27. Ge 1:27 is simply God performing his intention spoken in Ge 1:26. I don't think Scripture can be said to support God commanding in Ge 1:27 the "us" of Ge 1:26. 2) Both Ge 1:26 and 1:27 refer to creating man. If they are separate events, would they not be separate creations, making it two creations? But you disagree with two creations. 3) The only "us" revealed in the Word of God to be involved in creation was the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity (Col 1:16; Heb 1:2; Jn 1:3). Now God's rule to protect us from error regarding his Word written is 1Co 4:6 - "Do not go beyond what is written." So that makes the three previous Scriptures the boundary of our knowledge regarding who was involved in creation; viz., the Son of God. And we must not enlarge the boundaries of God's revelation, if we want to remain in his truth. So Scripture does not support the "us" referring to someone outside the Godhead. 4) The Hebrew word used in Ge 1:26 is adam, "Let us make man in our image." It is the same Hebrew word used in Ge 2:20, "But for Adam no suitable helper was found." So I don't think Scripture can be said to suppport "the man" of Ge 1 and the "Adam" of Ge 2 as different men. 5) The Word of God states in in 1Co 15:45 that Adam was the first man. So there could have been no other man before Adam. Likewise Scripture shows no other creation after Adam and Eve. There being no other man, it is this Adam who was created by the "us" in Ge 1:26 and the "God" in Ge 1:27, and the same Adam who was placed in the garden in Ge 2:15. Scripture limits the man of Ge 1:26 and 1:27 and Ge 2 to Adam, the first and only man created. So again, I don't think Scripture can be said to support the existence of other humans prior to Adam and Eve, nor the creation of other humans after Adam and Eve. 6) Ge 2:8 states that God had already created the garden before he created Adam, and placed him there in Ge 2:15. So again, because Adam was the first (1Co 15:45) and only man created, it is the same man as Ge 1:26 and 1:27, where the Garden of Eden is not mentioned. I don't think Scripture can be said to support the man placed in the Garden in Ge 2:15 being different from the man in Ge 1:26 or 1:27. So Ge 1:26 and 1:27 cannot be separate events because in Ge 1:27, "God" does not command the "us" of Ge 1:26; in Ge 1:27, "God" is the "us" of Ge 1:26, as the wording of 1:26 clearly shows; Ge 1:26 and 1:27 both relate the creation of "man," which would make two separate creations, with which you do not agree; the "us" of Ge 1:26 and the "God" of Ge 1:27 are one and the same; i.e., the Godhead, Father and Son (Col 1:16; Heb 1:2; Jn 1:3); the Hebrew word for "the man" and for "Adam" are the same, so "the man" of Ge 1 and the "Adam" of Ge 2 are one and the same man; Adam was the first human created (1Co 15:45), and the Word of God reveals no others created after Adam and Eve; therefore, Ge 1:26 and 1:27, as well as Ge 2, all relate the same event, the creation of "Adam," the first and only "man" created. The Word of God does not support two separate events, but supports only one and the same event in the creation accounts of Ge 1 and Ge 2. And remember what I pointed out earlier. You stated that just because one could find Scriptures to support one's position did not mean the position was correct. However, the Scriptures presented did not truly support the position, so they were not an example of having Scriptural support for a position that was not correct. And you won't be able to find an example of having Scriptural support for a position that is not correct. Scripture is the truth of God, and if the Scriptures (understood in conformity with all Scripture) really do support a position, then the position is indeed the truth. That you were not looking for this still leaves us with uncertainty as to its author. The Holy Spirit shows you something, and the Holy Spirit shows someone else just the opposite of what he shows you. Now both can't be true. So how do we know which is the Holy Spirit, and which is the product of a human mind? The plumb line and standard of measure is the Word of God written. And that is the plumb line I am using here to measure what you present. So three things to go by: 1) The Word of God written is the only plumb line and measure of God's truth. 2) The Word of God must be understood in the light of all the Word of God if our understanding of it is to be God's truth. 3) "Do not go beyond what is written," in God's truth. (1Co 4:6) I hope this helps to answer your question of how we can know what is correct when things that differ are presented to us. So if you want to be in God's truth on creation, you must reckon with his Word written in 1 Co 4:6, 15:45; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2; Jn 1:3, which Scriptures do not support, and are contrary to, your extra-Biblical understanding of creation. Cordially, Eleanor Eleanor, Again I cannot thank you enough for your time, wisdom, patience and these scriptures. I will study them and pray my answers are there Thank you
  5. Ok I searched serpent seed theology last night and Arnold Murray was mentioned so I must have found what you are referncing. According to the writing Adam and Eve ere involve in some kind of sexual ritual with the serpant in the Garden including Homosexual acts. Read Me Clear. I reject this Idea, thought, teaching, interpretation, implication wholy. I do not believe in this. So no I do not believe in serpant seed theoligy. Sin was transfered through Adam and Eve to Cain. Spiritually. The serpent, beguiled Eve, I read this as seduced, tricked etc… But temptation was already there as with Adam For God told Adam the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was forbidden. Yet he also did eat. Hope this clarifies Thanks Men as trees doctrine. I will admit this has crossed my mind, again, I know of no specific theology or doctrine. But as most are familiar people are described as trees in quite a few places in the scripture, and as well I believe the tree of Life is representative of Jesus, and the tree of knowledge is of Satan. Again ultimately these are spiritually. So that is where I stand based on my study. What I have never found and would like to know is how this teaching became Eve eating an apple; I just don’t see how this can be inferred. I would love to see it. I could see fruit, but Apple? Thanks
  6. The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired. Peace, Dave The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. I say yes we agree When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. I see no dis agreementy at all with Apostle Paul You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: I see no disagreement with this passage obviously there was onloy One man who brought sin into this world. That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. Yes we are of free will, God did have his chosen, and Jesus spent much time teaching the synagog of Satan. which is also in agreement with my reading. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired.I disagree only with perhaps teachings of traditriions as well as Jesus did with 5 of the seven churchs. and the misguided teachings in the temple, again relating to the Kenites who were the scribes which are the decendents of Cain I wiil re-ask again , without adding to the word, where did the land of Nod come from and Cains wife, I show you without adding, I am willing to listen. Thank you I am appreciative of your time. Ah' so we get at the Kenite decpetion and the Truth of the matter. You believe in Serpent Seed Theology. Is this True? If there is such a theoligy I guess I would agree depending on what it is I agree there were Kenites, as described in the scriptures, I believe they were decendents of Cain, I believe they were scribes I believe they were as all poeple good and bad, I believe Cain was the first murderer as Jesus describes and Those who claim they are Jews but are not are the same decendents. If that is what you are refering to I say Its yes. thanks Explain where these other people came from. Who is the us, is it the angels and was satan involved? here is what I previously wrote, nothing about Satan thanks
  7. The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired. Peace, Dave The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. I say yes we agree When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. I see no dis agreementy at all with Apostle Paul You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: I see no disagreement with this passage obviously there was onloy One man who brought sin into this world. That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. Yes we are of free will, God did have his chosen, and Jesus spent much time teaching the synagog of Satan. which is also in agreement with my reading. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired.I disagree only with perhaps teachings of traditriions as well as Jesus did with 5 of the seven churchs. and the misguided teachings in the temple, again relating to the Kenites who were the scribes which are the decendents of Cain I wiil re-ask again , without adding to the word, where did the land of Nod come from and Cains wife, I show you without adding, I am willing to listen. Thank you I am appreciative of your time. Ah' so we get at the Kenite decpetion and the Truth of the matter. You believe in Serpent Seed Theology. Is this True? If there is such a theoligy I guess I would agree depending on what it is I agree there were Kenites, as described in the scriptures, I believe they were decendents of Cain, I believe they were scribes I believe they were as all poeple good and bad, I believe Cain was the first murderer as Jesus describes and Those who claim they are Jews but are not are the same decendents. If that is what you are refering to I say Its yes. thanks
  8. Eleanor Again I thank you for your patience, time and wisdom. I couldn’t agree more.-That which you have stated. And in my heart this reading fulfills that test, What it doesn’t do is agree with mans teaching I also agree. I have not added to the word, changed anything. In fact it confirms much of what is written and mans common teaching does not resolve.. Thank you
  9. Dave is not discussing apples with you, and they hardly apply to the "argument" you present, which goes far further than fruit. He is attempting to instruct you, and knowing him as I do, I consider him eminently qualified to do so. Now lets talk about the three wise men, a far more important matter than apples. (see what I am getting at?) Blessings 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, (Fisherman) and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (hunters) agrees with other races, land of Nod, Cains wife, and more 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. agrees with the Garden of Eden creates the lineage of Jesus,, Bible is tracking of preservation of this seed Why would this not be construed as two different Fleshly creations? The us created man in our image and God created man in his Image. Of Course God created everything But we are talking the Flesh not spirit. perhaps the Us is the angels? I wont speculate. I am aware and have always understood the US in that scripture to be Jesus But that is interpretation and assumption as Jesus in the Flesh, is the son, the living word. To me this would answer much of the first few problems in Genesis, I am fairly read in the scripture, and I have seen more weaving and swerving to simple questions as to where the land of Nod or Cain’s wife came from. 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. Gen 4:16-17 (KJV) According to iscripture Cain was the first born along with Abel whom he mudered. But my reading explains Nod, wife, and how this isn't an error to have sin enter into the world. After all, we were all predestined. I guess what I’m saying is unless you read it the way I see this. You would have to add to the scripture to explain Cain’s lineage as a result of departure of the Garden all the way through the Kenites. I believe Cain was part of the plan. Not an error by God. This is just one of the things I see in the OP scripture. Well, Daniel, you've certainly generated a lot of comment. And I understand your intention not to argue. But let's just honestly examine all this in the light of the whole Bible, okay? The problem I see here is that a need for solution (to land of Nod, Cain's wife) is driving your theology and causing you to interpret Scripture in the light of a solution, rather than in the light of itself. That's called eisegesis, reading meaning into the Scriptures to agree with our theology. That is opposed to exegesis, which reads meaning out of the Scriptures to form our theology. Keep in mind that Scripture does not answer every logistical question. A more likely explanation for Cain's wife would be one of his sisters. There is no prohibition against such recorded in Scripture prior to the time of Moses. Sarah, afterall, was Abraham's half sister (Ge 20:12). Also keep in mind that Genesis was recorded by Moses ~2,400 years after it occurred. He could well have used a reference to Nod because it was in existence at the time he recorded Genesis. Granted, Scripture reports none of these things, but these observations are not contrary to Scripture, as is the case with your thesis that the world was destroyed prior to the time of Noah, etc. So back to your thesis. I don't really understand what you are saying. Would you kindly state what you are proposing regarding two creations. Cordially, Eleanor I am not stating two creations , merely that God commanded The Us whoever they are, created man/women through or with God, and God creaated a man whom he placed in the Garden. Not sure about when the Garden was created but it seems seperate timing as God Placed the Man whom He created in it. Still 6 day creation, still sinlless, just that Let Us Create Man in Our Image is a seperate event than God creating a man in his image. Still all Gods creation. I agree it would appear as I was looking for this, however to be honest, It never crossed my mind, I assure you I have prayed on this and examened many aspects, I never had any disagreement with common teachings. Like I originally wrote, and the premis to my question. Do I dare challange what I believe the Holy Spirit has shown me? As I dig I just find more answers then questions other than of course the common teaching. Thanks
  10. Hi, Dave - I re-read the OP, and I am not sure he actually claimed sin entered through anyone other than Adam. It looks to me like he is saying the Lord created many men, and one of them brought sin into the world. Thank you for the clarification, yes All men were sinless at that point. And it was good. all were created innocent of sin, perhaps they may heve been the trees in the forest. thank you for your time also.
  11. The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired. Peace, Dave The Word of God is built up Line upon Line, precept upon precept. I say yes we agree When you have scripture and Church History, not too mention an Apostle like Paul, that disagree's with your assertions and exegetion. You have a problem. I see no dis agreementy at all with Apostle Paul You have the Sure Word of God disagreeing with you; Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: I see no disagreement with this passage obviously there was onloy One man who brought sin into this world. That passage doesn't say anything about many men. If you have many moral free agents created and created Good as the Bible indicates about Adam. Then you have many moral free agents that had a decision to make and you leave us with the possibility that some of us have a lineage other than subjecated to sin. Yes we are of free will, God did have his chosen, and Jesus spent much time teaching the synagog of Satan. which is also in agreement with my reading. You disagree with the Gospel brought forth by God and spread by the Apostles under the Administration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Orthodox Chruch History. Your exegesis fails on all three tests and can't possibly be Holy Spirit inspired.I disagree only with perhaps teachings of traditriions as well as Jesus did with 5 of the seven churchs. and the misguided teachings in the temple, again relating to the Kenites who were the scribes which are the decendents of Cain I wiil re-ask again , without adding to the word, where did the land of Nod come from and Cains wife, I show you without adding, I am willing to listen. Thank you I am appreciative of your time.
  12. Dave is not discussing apples with you, and they hardly apply to the "argument" you present, which goes far further than fruit. He is attempting to instruct you, and knowing him as I do, I consider him eminently qualified to do so. Now lets talk about the three wise men, a far more important matter than apples. (see what I am getting at?) Blessings Thank you for your time also. I am not trying to change the subject, simply pointing out inconsistancies in the teachings of Traditions verses what the words actually say. And my intention is not to argue, I simply see these words, and as I read them they answer at least a couple of simple questiions. Where did the Land of Nod come from. and where did Cains wife come from, remember we are focusing on just a few scriptures to keep it simple.So again I say, as I see it, my reading answers those questions without dancing or creating myth. Peace to you also
  13. Grace to you, You've got a huge problem in dealing with scripture like this when you exegete a passage the way that you have done. Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: I would say that the Holy Spirit hasn't shown you anything at all when you deny Apostolic Authority, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Church history. Peace, Dave Thank you for response. I see this as no contridiction nor exageration I would say clearer understanding of those passages with a lot of supporting scripture. and as for me not being led by the Holy spirit v Apostolic Authority, what is thier explaination of theses couple questions without adding or dancing. again thanks Apostolic Authority, like the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Church History are safe guidlines in determining whether or not you are exegeting the Word of God correctly and being guided by the Holy Spirit or whether or not you are a lone ranger off on a rabbit trail. God will never contradict His own Word. Apostolic Authority is determined by whether or not you are adhering to the original Apostles teachings as handed to them by God Himself and adminstrated by the Guiding of His Holy Spirit. So far you disagree with them and the Word of God, not to mention Historical Orthodox Christianity. Therefore, you have a huge problem. Peace, Dave Again I agree with you to a point, however where am I contradicting the words in the Bible? It may be that you dont agree with what I see, But I do not see a contradiction, perhaps in teaching, but not in the Letter from our Lord. But then again, theres is no apple in the Bible either and so many believe that is what Eve ate. So who is adding to the word? Thank you for time. Peace to you
  14. Grace to you, You've got a huge problem in dealing with scripture like this when you exegete a passage the way that you have done. Ro 5:12 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: I would say that the Holy Spirit hasn't shown you anything at all when you deny Apostolic Authority, the Word of God, and 2,000 years of Church history. Peace, Dave Thank you for response. I see this as no contridiction nor exageration I would say clearer understanding of those passages with a lot of supporting scripture. and as for me not being led by the Holy spirit v Apostolic Authority, what is thier explaination of theses couple questions without adding or dancing. again thanks
  15. Thanks again for your responses Perhaps if I keep it simple with just a couple scriptures 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, (Fisherman) and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (hunters) agrees with other races, land of Nod, Cains wife, and more 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. agrees with the Garden of Eden creates the lineage of Jesus,, Bible is tracking of preservation of this seed Why would this not be construed as two different Fleshly creations? The us created man in our image and God created man in his Image. Of Course God created everything But we are talking the Flesh not spirit. perhaps the Us is the angels? I wont speculate. I am aware and have always understood the US in that scripture to be Jesus But that is interpretation and assumption as Jesus in the Flesh, is the son, the living word. To me this would answer much of the first few problems in Genesis, I am fairly read in the scripture, and I have seen more weaving and swerving to simple questions as to where the land of Nod or Cain’s wife came from. 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. Gen 4:16-17 (KJV) According to iscripture Cain was the first born along with Abel whom he mudered. But my reading explains Nod, wife, and how this isn't an error to have sin enter into the world. After all, we were all predestined. I guess what I’m saying is unless you read it the way I see this. You would have to add to the scripture to explain Cain’s lineage as a result of departure of the Garden all the way through the Kenites I believe Cain was part of the plan. Not an error by God. This is just one of the things I see in the OP scripture. again thank you for your time. RE: OP "Just because I can find these things and use-supporting scripture does that make it CORRECT?"
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