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For even satan quotes scriptures in order to put men in chains under its power. It tried this with Christ and it does so with misguided people today who do not hesitate to cripple men and women from seeking the salvation offered by the Most High. It is said that the disciples of the evil one will do this believing that they are doing God a favor. They are not, yet they persist in their lies and devious teachings. You would quote scripture to drive knives into the heart of a grieving mother and father and make them twice as fit for hell as you are yourself. People like you give Christianity a bad name, yet you will no doubt justify your condemnation of the dead child in your own lies and tell yourself you are right. My wife and I lost a child and I thank God that He kept evil people like you away from us at that time for if someone like you had come to us at that time I would certainly have abandoned Christ and the church forever. You should ask God for forgiveness for your evil ways. You have no idea how corrupt you are. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The conflict going on for thousands of years - is a spiritual battle that has devolved from eternity/heaven to the estate of time and space. In the words of the Bible, the battle lines have moved from heaven to earth. The battle goes on because eternal immortal creatures are involved in it. Woe woe woe to those who dwell upon the earth for the war has come upon them. Like those who suffer from any war, we did not ask for it or desire it. Yet it is upon us and we are called to duty to serve Christ in His war upon sin. Our duty is not to ask why, but to ask for wisdom and courage to follow Christ wherever that war may lead us. (God will not answer prayers that ask why.) Why are we still on earth? The purpose of man is, was, and always will be to serve the Lord of the Universe. If He chooses to place us on earth for a certain amount of time, then that his His prerogative. Our duty is to follow Him until He decides a different fate for each of us. Gaining the victory is not a prepackaged simplistic answer or process. Sin still has its influence in the world and upon each of us. Those that deny it are hiding from reality like lost ignorant children. The task and the duty of all who are called by the name of Christ is to follow Him through each and every battle. If we follow Him, we will participate in His victory. If we choose not to do so, we will be ground under the wheels of advancing history and be lost to ourselves and to God. The problem is a flaw in logic, which you have pointed out. Therefore the logic is wrong. Christ may have gained a victory, but we as individuals have not. HE has come to give us victory over sin in our lives. We MUST fight the battle or suffer defeat. The cross is not an end to suffering upon earth - it is a call to bear it. Is there an end to the battle and what is holding it back? For individuals in all of history, the battle ends when life ends. For the history of man on earth, it will end when Christ returns. It will end with the second coming. Nothing is holding it back. It will happen in God's good and perfect timing. It will not happen earlier because a few saints are impatient. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The debate of the legitimacy of which Talmud is heretical can go on for a long time. The Babylonian Talmud is much longer than the Jerusalem Talmud. The Kindle version is about 12 thousand pages. It contains a great deal of information considered occult or spiritist in nature obtained while in Babylon, which is why Jews (and some Christians) consider it heretical. For example, the Babylonian Talmud contains a detailed description of a ceremony the reader can perform to allow a person to 'see' all the spirits that surround us on all sides. The ceremony is performed in the person's bedroom before retiring for the night. When the person awakes in the morning he or she will be able to see all the spirits around them. It's my understanding that the experience is quite unsettling. This is NOT the sort of thing that is endorsed by the Jerusalem Talmud, or by any scripture in the Torah, the old testament (prophets major and minor as well as proverbs and psalms and the records of Kings, Chronicles and so on). It is certainly not endorsed by any Christian denomination that I'm aware of. The reader may feel that he or she is entitled to accept this record of the Babylonian captivity as sacrosanct, but it is definitely not approved of by any who follow Christ or seek God in a righteous manner. It has pagan roots and is therefore spiritually toxic. The doctrine of original sin or human depravity is key to this pagan ideology. Although there are NO clear threads worthy of note to connect it to the European Reformation period and the doctrines that proceeded out of that period, there are parallels that are too clear and too similar to be circumstantial. The devil has its influence upon the religions of man wherever this is seen. It is a primary theme, in fact. Man is born pure and without sin, but has a tendency to do so as life progresses. If the pagan demonic idea that man is always predisposed to sin is accepted by the reader, then the logical extension of this fallacy is that no man can ever be saved either by act of man or by God. Any attempt by God to save man would be futile, since man would ultimately reject such an effort anyway. This is, of course not true, since Christ has saved millions. Some other principle must be involved. That principle is the free will acceptance of Christ as Lord. Evidence of the exercise of spiritual liberty is evidenced by millions of people who claim Jesus Christ as their Lord and who have come to enjoy the benefits of salvation in their lives and the hope of eternity to come. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You are free to believe a lie.... BUT - if you choose to employ the Bible as a benchmark for the law of God, for what God intends and what the Kingdom of Heaven is all about, then you must adhere to its precepts. Nowhere in the Bible does it say babies are born in sin. Nowhere. In contradiction to this errant philosophy, the law of Torah states quite differently that sacrifices for sin do not include babies. In fact, the sacrifice for the birth of a baby is more of an offering of thanksgiving and praise and celebration unto God. Consider the ill logic of the notion that all babies are born into sin..... If true, then Christ was born into sin as well. Therefore no one can be saved <- which is an idea that's blatantly wrong on several points. The ill logic derails at some point in trying to explain away the birth of Christ so as to justify a lie. Babies are born without sin according to Torah - the law of Moses, which is STILL a benchmark for righteousness and true doctrine. If perhaps the reader is used to following a lie, then that is the reader's privilege. However, it is most definitely not Biblical. Above all, PLEASE do not speak to a family who has lost a baby in death and tell them the kid was a wicked sinner and doomed to hell. Your filthy words will not only proceed forth as a lie of satan, they will confuse and disappoint the grieving parents. (Satan's purpose, by the way.) Wicked doctrine like this is responsible for giving Christianity a bad name - the name of an unforgiving lawless mob who adopts false doctrine instead of the divine law of liberty issued by God. Blessed be the God of Heaven who's mercies endure forever. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

My post above concerning the origins of the Qur'an and some of its ideology are accurate and true. Anyone who wishes a thumbnail review of the religion and the text of the Muslim holy book should read it. Save yourself a little time and try to avoid errors in understanding. My post is not an apologetic for Islam. Quite the contrary it is a dispassionate review of the religion according to the Qur'an itself. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

It wasn't thought out at all. Knee jerk is an auto-response. It is inconsiderate of the material submitted in the post. I note the extreme reaction to my words. None of them are in dispute, by the way. Not one. My purpose was to illuminate a deep dark problem in the church. And I do dismiss the inconsiderate responses to my post as irrelevant and ignorant of the issues at hand. I've gone to great lengths to explain the danger as well as my purpose and design in doing so. The problem is refusal to acknowledge my methods and the truth of what I wrote in terms of secularization. Apparently none of the respondents have had to deal with the problem. Stupidity and laziness are not virtues. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft... PS I note that aspersions upon my character have been made in response to my posts, which the administrators have conveniently ignored. When a man's devotion to Christ is called into question THAT is a major undeserved attack upon him and is forbidden in the Bible. Apparently respondents as well as administrators ignore this point choosing instead to dwell on dead issues and illusive points of interpretation. It seems to be ok to insult a man as long as you use scripture to do it. This is hypocrisy of the meanest sort. Understanding of what I wrote is being deliberately twisted denied and ignored. So be it. Live in your dying church for whatever good you think it does you. Warning has been posted. Go your own way if you think it good. You will wind up in the ditch, but it won't be my fault.

Babies born sinners? This is a lie of the devil. It is not of God and it is not scriptural. The source of this madness comes not from European scholarship but from the Jewish Babylonian talmud, which is full of demonic information the Jews gleaned during their captivity in Babylon. There are two talmuds, the Jerusalem talmud and the Babylonian talmud. The latter is considered heretical by the Jews. Babis born sinners? All you have to do to answer this question is to look at the law - TORAH. According to TORAH the sacrifice for sin was a goat. On special rare occasions the sacrifice could also be a lamb. Definitions of those times and needs are rather lengthy so I'll leave it up to the reader to do his own homework on this point. To repeat, the sacrifice for sin was a goat or lamb. According to TORAH a dove or pigeon was sacrificed to acknowledge the birth of a child. This was NOT a sin sacrifice. Rather it was a sacrifice of worship and thanksgiving and of gladness. This indicates in no uncertain terms that a baby is born into the world WITHOUT SIN. This flies in the face of certain fatalistic religious cults, however. Some believe that man is totally depraved at all times and in all cases unless spiritually regenerate. This is NOT the case, however, if one looks at the TORAH, the ancient law HANDED DOWN BY GOD though his prophet Moses. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it. This means that Jesus extended and obeyed the law in all regards. The law is NOT dismissed. Becoming a Christian does not give one a license to sin. It enables one to live blameless without it. Finally it should be pointed out that upon the birth of Christ, his parents dedicated a sacrifice of thanksgiving. If the law doesn't mean anything, then Jesus was also born a sinner and we are all doomed to hell. It's not true of course, but this is the path errant thinking will lead to. According to the Bible, babies are born without sin. If they die an early death their ultimate destination is the glory of heaven with God. If you choose to believe a lie and want to condemn a baby to hell in violation of TORAH, then I can say with all due confidence that you are in league with the devil. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Shocked by my posts? The knee-jerk response to what I wrote is indicative of a lack of consideration for the tone of the posts. It was read, but only on a superficial level. Shocked? When I am making a Biblical presentation regarding the strict interpretation of a scriptural text, I adhere to the words like flies on flypaper. When I am making an assertion about a CON JOB being sold to church leadership in the guise of Biblical study, then I play fast and loose with the Bible. Why not? They do. ------ My intent was as a warning concerning two aspects of the secularization of the modern church. If you don't know this is going on I fear you live in a dark corner somewhere. You need to get out more. 1. That the church is increasingly IN THE NAME OF GOD and using scripture as justification - compromising it's position in terms of God's honest truth. Case in point is same sex marriage. Case in point is acceptance of the gay life style as holy and just and right before God. Case in point is the unjust national policy of military intrusion invasion and wholesale destruction of nations that had no original intent of harm toward us. Case in point is the massive genocidal murder of innocent unborn babies for no reason except convenience. Case in point - goes on and on. These are but a few. My point is that the church either endorses these ungodly actions or in many cases encourages and embraces them. It is not of God, but it is evidence of secularization in the church. 2. That the church is increasingly robbing its congregations by means of fraudulent devices. Case in point in my posts is unaccredited Bible classes which charge tuition and book fees for SUBSTANDARD teaching materials. Every city has legitimate accredited theological places of study. Why are these resources not employed to educate and encourage church members? They are not because legitimate education costs real money - money that can more easily be siphoned off into accounts for the support of a financially strapped corporate church. There are two ways to raise money for a church. One way is to beg plead and petition membership for greater and greater donations. These include all sorts of con games such as gambling (bingo), craft fairs, church suppers, game nights, etc. They raise money beneath the guise of fellowship and needed money. The money wouldn't be needed if it was spent wisely in the first place. Statistics reveal that nearly every church in America is deeply in debt for millions. The second way to raise money is to implement a successful evangelistic program. More members means more money. Since most churches feel this is like taking a bath in dirty water they don't even try any more. Many take a fatalistic approach, 'if God wants them to come we will welcome them - maybe.' The Bible says it ought to be done, but despite rigorous adherence to Biblical principles in many other areas - THIS ONE is ignored to a fault. Many church organizations have abandoned live evangelism. They now believe that the Word of God can be transmitted over the internet just as well. BUT THERE ARE NO REAL NUMBERS TO SUPPORT THIS ATTITUDE. Bottom line to my present rant is that con artists have invaded the church. In terms of my theme the buzz word GROWTH is a hook to buy into their schemes. If you aren't aware of these things and if you don't believe me, then I encourage you to educate yourself in this very real danger to the body of Christ. Get out more and stop throwing manure in the face of the messenger. If you knew what I was talking about you wouldn't do it. That you do proves your blindness and laziness. and that's me, hollering in the choir loft......

Consider the lillies of the field. Not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these. It is all God's doing. None of them spent a second of time examining themselves............... Self-examination is a major principle in Communist philosophy as well as multi-national corporations. Looking inward is a trap of the devil. All you'll find when you gaze at yourself is an imperfect reflection. The Bible encourages the Christain to follow Christ. Anything else is mirrors and smoke - doctrines of demons. The American church has come to embrace all things secular. Differences between churches and secular organizations are virtually indistinguishable. This is true concerning the buzz word "GROWTH". Christians are called to be separate from the world, not to embrace its buzz words or to participate in its conceit. The word GROWTH is not used today as a reference to sanctification (why not use THAT word?). Instead GROWTH is employed in the context of self-improvement. It means the same in church as it does in the corporate world. Growth methods and procedures are employed by large secular organizations to encourage individuals to assume a standard of acceptable behavior. It's a cookie-cutter education in propaganda and a doctrine of self-importance within the context of the corporate whole. Procedures are interchangeable and can just as easily be used to promote Islam or the administration of General Motors, Inc. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Biblical spiritual principle of the sanctification of the believer in Christ. One can quote scripture all day long and all that will be accomplished will be a reiteration of spiritual truth. It's a devilish smokescreen to hide what's really happening in churches. What IS being promoted is 'growth ministry' - a financial trap that church administrators use to squeeze money out of their congregations (who already pay too much for everything else). The current sales pitch for "growth ministries" insists that individual Christians participate in lectures, classes and activities designed for self-improvement. In northern California, Presbyterian churches are charging fees for 'Bible studies'. In north Georgia, Methodist churches are doing the same thing. These churches CHARGE TUITION FEES as well as textbook fees for their bogus courses. ---> The courses themselves are not accredited, thus they are entirely worthless in terms of legitimate academic credentials. <--- (1) In other words, snake oil. However they DO benefit the church bank account. I've been there. I've seen it. Don't tell me it isn't happening. It's a money making fraud perpetrated by religious administrators who seek support for their crumbling institutions. Who do tuition and textbook fees benefit? They benefit the church bank account and they benefit religious publishers. It doesn't do squat for the poor soul who think's he's getting something for his time and money. He isn't. In most cases the material is reiterated grade school or middle school level dogma/propaganda. I know. I've seen it. So has the reader if truth be told. There is a common familiarity to all of it. Spiritual milk instead of meat. Buzz words are employed liberally to reinforce corporate ideals, not to encourage Christians in seeking truth. My formal studies in theology and church history reached the Masters Degree level at a noted seminary in New York. I am currently employed by a local State College and am familiar with legitimate educational materials and programs. I know the subject matter. I have written and seen published several books, magazine articles and short stories. I know the publishing business from personal experience. It's all about money. It always has been and always will be. The church has corrupted itself and GROWTH MINISTRY is but one symptom. My purpose is to refocus the reader's attention to the very real work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer - sanctification. While quotations of scripture, with enhancement of the word 'growth', are not untrue - neither are they accurate in the modern church. The church in many cases is spiritually dead and GROWTH MINISTRY is evidence of it. GROWTH is a money matter in the secular world as well as the American church. If properly managed, the god rackett is a good business. I was taught that principle in seminary.(2) If you believe that money doesn't influence Christian education or that modern GROWTH MINISTRY, like the gnostic heresy that preceeded it(3), isn't a con job - then you are sadly misinformed. Devotion to Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer cannot be packaged like cheap soap from China. Does a rose go to school to learn how to be beautiful? Does anyone presume to know how God creates such beauty? Beware the snake oil salesman who trades hard earned cash for GROWTH. Only the Holy Spirit can supply the real thing. He does it freely. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... (1) Educational accreditation... is a type of quality assurance process under which services and operations of educational institutions or programs are evaluated by an external body to determine if applicable standards are met. If standards are met, accredited status is granted by the appropriate agency. In most countries the function of educational accreditation is conducted by a government organization, such as a Ministry of Education. In the United States a quality assurance process exists that is independent of government and performed by private non-profit organizations. The U.S. accreditation process was developed in the late 19th century and early 20th century after educational institutions perceived a need for improved coordination and articulation between secondary and post-secondary educational institutions, along with standardization of requirements between the two levels. - Wikipedia There is NO accreditation process or procedure among Christian churches in America. Therefore there is no quality assurance in terms of doctrine or adherence to scripture in any of them. I am employed by a local State College that participates diligently in the accreditation process. I know my subject matter. - Choir Loft (2) The instutution was a merger of Episcopal, Methodist and Baptist leadership. (3) Secret language, special 'education' and priviledged membership are aspects of the gnostic heresy.

Consider the lillies of the field. Not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these. It is all God's doing. None of them spent a second of time examining themselves............... Self-examination is a major principle in Communist philosophy as well as multi-national corporations. Looking inward is a trap of the devil. All you'll find when you gaze at yourself is an imperfect reflection. The Bible encourages the Christain to follow Christ. Anything else is mirrors and smoke - doctrines of demons. The American church has come to embrace all things secular. Differences between churches and secular organizations are virtually indistinguishable. This is true concerning the buzz word "GROWTH". Christians are called to be separate from the world, not to embrace its buzz words or to participate in its conceit. The word GROWTH is not used today as a reference to sanctification (why not use THAT word?). Instead GROWTH is employed in the context of self-improvement. It means the same in church as it does in the corporate world. Growth methods and procedures are employed by large secular organizations to encourage individuals to assume a standard of acceptable behavior. It's a cookie-cutter education in propaganda and a doctrine of self-importance within the context of the corporate whole. Procedures are interchangeable and can just as easily be used to promote Islam or the administration of General Motors, Inc. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Biblical spiritual principle of the sanctification of the believer in Christ. One can quote scripture all day long and all that will be accomplished will be a reiteration of spiritual truth. It's a devilish smokescreen to hide what's really happening in churches. What IS being promoted is 'growth ministry' - a financial trap that church administrators use to squeeze money out of their congregations (who already pay too much for everything else). The current sales pitch for "growth ministries" insists that individual Christians participate in lectures, classes and activities designed for self-improvement. In northern California, Presbyterian churches are charging fees for 'Bible studies'. In north Georgia, Methodist churches are doing the same thing. These churches CHARGE TUITION FEES as well as textbook fees for their bogus courses. ---> The courses themselves are not accredited, thus they are entirely worthless in terms of legitimate academic credentials. <--- (1) In other words, snake oil. However they DO benefit the church bank account. I've been there. I've seen it. Don't tell me it isn't happening. It's a money making fraud perpetrated by religious administrators who seek support for their crumbling institutions. Who do tuition and textbook fees benefit? They benefit the church bank account and they benefit religious publishers. It doesn't do squat for the poor soul who think's he's getting something for his time and money. He isn't. In most cases the material is reiterated grade school or middle school level dogma/propaganda. I know. I've seen it. So has the reader if truth be told. There is a common familiarity to all of it. Spiritual milk instead of meat. Buzz words are employed liberally to reinforce corporate ideals, not to encourage Christians in seeking truth. My formal studies in theology and church history reached the Masters Degree level at a noted seminary in New York. I am currently employed by a local State College and am familiar with legitimate educational materials and programs. I know the subject matter. I have written and seen published several books, magazine articles and short stories. I know the publishing business from personal experience. It's all about money. It always has been and always will be. The church has corrupted itself and GROWTH MINISTRY is but one symptom. My purpose is to refocus the reader's attention to the very real work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer - sanctification. While quotations of scripture, with enhancement of the word 'growth', are not untrue - neither are they accurate in the modern church. The church in many cases is spiritually dead and GROWTH MINISTRY is evidence of it. GROWTH is a money matter in the secular world as well as the American church. If properly managed, the god rackett is a good business. I was taught that principle in seminary.(2) If you believe that money doesn't influence Christian education or that modern GROWTH MINISTRY, like the gnostic heresy that preceeded it(3), isn't a con job - then you are sadly misinformed. Devotion to Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer cannot be packaged like cheap soap from China. Does a rose go to school to learn how to be beautiful? Does anyone presume to know how God creates such beauty? Beware the snake oil salesman who trades hard earned cash for GROWTH. Only the Holy Spirit can supply the real thing. He does it freely. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... (1) Educational accreditation... is a type of quality assurance process under which services and operations of educational institutions or programs are evaluated by an external body to determine if applicable standards are met. If standards are met, accredited status is granted by the appropriate agency. In most countries the function of educational accreditation is conducted by a government organization, such as a Ministry of Education. In the United States a quality assurance process exists that is independent of government and performed by private non-profit organizations. The U.S. accreditation process was developed in the late 19th century and early 20th century after educational institutions perceived a need for improved coordination and articulation between secondary and post-secondary educational institutions, along with standardization of requirements between the two levels. - Wikipedia There is NO accreditation process or procedure among Christian churches in America. Therefore there is no quality assurance in terms of doctrine or adherence to scripture in any of them. I am employed by a local State College that participates diligently in the accreditation process. I know my subject matter. - Choir Loft (2) The instutution was a merger of Episcopal, Methodist and Baptist leadership. (3) Secret language, special 'education' and priviledged membership are aspects of the gnostic heresy.

When you put a corpse in its grave, what has become of this "growth"? Every scripture you quote encourages the believer unto the process of sanctification, which is spiritual. Books and learning and physical habits all perish as the body dies. The image of Christ is eternal. Your post smells like something the publisher of a costly religious book series would promote. Books and learning are good, but they do not survive the death of the body except perhaps as a donation to a library as part of the last will and testimony of the deceased. Sanctification is eternal. Learning is temporary. Growth is a deceit of the secular world and promotes nothing except pointless religious programs and endless appeals for money to sustain bankrupt ministries. Show me the value of 'growth' and I'll show you a corrupt boil on the flesh of the church. Sanctification is separation unto Christ and no course work can possibly substitute for it. It is pure and holy as no book series can claim. Some deny the efficacy of the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, but it is said that God cannot be pleased without it. The religious "growth" industry in America is highly profitable, albeit corrupt to the bone. Christian publishers as a rule are so crooked that when they die they are screwed into the ground. Beware those that promote death as a religious process. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Growth is a secular word. When used to describe the process of divine sanctification it causes confusion and misunderstanding. There is no 'growth' in spiritual terms. Growth ends with the termination of puberty. Growth is a physical term. In Christianity one is TRANSFORMED into the likeness or image of Christ. The process is entirely spiritual in nature. There are indeed times when the physical body is affected by the transformation, but as a whole there isn't any growth in physical terms. It is spiritual and of a right ought to be referred to in Biblical terms - sanctification "separation unto Christ". Separation is not growth. It is death. One dies to the self, to the mind and to the lusts of the body. One puts an end to worldly things for the glory of Christ. The worldly minded man cannot separate unto Christ, but he CAN grow in licentiousness and sin. Sanctification conforms the spirit to Christ even as the body dies. This is not growth by any definition of the word. Sanctification is separation - a living sacrifice to Christ. It divides like a knife in the life of the believer. The follower of Jesus should separate himself from the things of the world, especially those that attempt to redefine spiritual values and matters. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

There is a LOT of confusion, some of it deliberate, concerning the Qur'an - one of the scriptural texts of Islam. Qur'an is an arab word meaning 'recitations'. Mohammad [pbuh], the founder of Islam, was an illiterate Arab warlord of the fifth century. According to tradition, his early years were spent engaged in commerce with traders and merchants. At that time he heard about the religion of the Jews and the new Christian religion. Much of this information appears in the Qur'an. Since Mohammad was illiterate he passed on his revelations as recitations to his disciples. The early form of the Arab scripture followed the oral tradition. After his death in 632 AD the recitations were written down for posterity. But they were not all the same. Variations existed throughout the growing Muslim empire. Caliph Uthman gathered the various recitations into a standard version called the Uthman codex. According to various sources the other versions were destroyed. The text, however, is known for its inconsistency. It makes statements in one part and then reverses its position elsewhere. For example, in one section the Qur'an says that the "people of the book", Christians and Jews, are to be embraced as brothers. Elsewhere and in many other places it says that believers (of Islam) should lie in wait so as to ambush and murder "the people of the book" at an opportune moment. I have read the entire text of the Qur'an and found it a difficult task. It doesn't read like any normal book. Actually it reads like a phone book. Pretty dull stuff. Any good book, secular or otherwise, must be consistent to its own theme. The Qur'an is not. I work at a college and had the opportunity to question a group of young Muslims about a passage in the Qur'an. In that book the ayah (1) said that "when the apostle of Allah speaks, one ought to do as he says." My question to the Muslims was - 'who is the apostle of Allah'. In Christianity, an apostle is one who went about building and establishing churches, who defined and taught the scripture and who bore witness to the work of God among men. Who is the apostle of Allah? (2) The Muslims didn't know. In fact they told me that I should NOT read the Qur'an, "because it's too confusing". Those were their words, not mine. The Muslim religion also acknowledges the texts of the Torah and Christian Bible as holy. The acknowledgment, however, is pretty thin since they reject most of what is taught there. Muslims also acknowledge Abraham and Jesus as prophets of God, but again only do so in part. The major break between Christians and Muslims is THAT MUSLIMS DO NOT ACCEPT JESUS AS THE SON OF GOD, HIS DEATH UPON THE CROSS FOR THE REDEMPTION OF SIN AND HIS RESURRECTION. In fact, the major doctrine of GRACE in Christianity has no comparative idea in Islam. One works for one's salvation in Islam. It is not given. Allah is said to be merciful, but it has no mercy upon those who aren't believers. Christ died for sinners so that they might be saved and redeemed. Islam teaches that unbelievers should be murdered. There are not separate versions of the Qur'an for men and women although there ARE separate responsibilities and rules for the genders. The Qur'an states that a man should beat his wife often so as to cause her to remember he is king in his own house. The Qur'an states that a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man. For a woman to refute rape in a Muslim court, she must have at least three women witnesses to oppose that of one man. In addition to the Qur'an there are many sacred Muslim texts. Hadith literature, for example, is often quoted by mullahs. The hadith is a lot like Jewish kabala. Hadith literature gives accounts of things said and done by Mohammad not recorded in the Qur'an. Kabala literature contains things said and done by Moses not recorded in the Talmud. ------------------------------------------ The primary difference between Islam and other religions of the world is that ISLAM IS THE ONLY RELIGION IN THE WORLD THAT APPROVES OF LYING. -------------------------------------- "Believers when in a weakened stage in a non-Muslim country should forgive and be patient with People of the Book when they insult Allah and his prophet by any means. Believers should lie to People of the Book to protect their lives and their religion." - Ibn Taymiyah "THE SWORD ON THE NECK OF THE ACCUSER OF MUHAMMAD" Anyone who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith - but such as open their breast to unbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty. - Qur'an Surah 16:106 "Know this that lying is not sin by itself, but if it brings harm to you it could be ugly. However, you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity." - Imam Al-Ghazali (Muslim theologian and philosopher) "The principle of sanctioning lying for the cause of Islam bears grave implications in matters relating to the spread of the religion of Islam in the West. Muslim activists employ deceptive tactics in their attempts to polish Islam's image and make it more attractive to prospective converts." - Abdullan Al-Araby (Muslim theologian, philosopher and leader) 2 doctrines of religious deception: taqiyya - (concealment) A muslim may lie about what they believe, denying aspects of their faith that are offensive [to others]. [Qur'an 16:106] Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam by Robert Spencer kitman - (mental reservation, the telling of partial truth with intention to deceive or mislead) "the scholars agreed that if a person is forced into disbelief, it is permissible for him to either go along with them in the interests of self-preservation, or to refuse." - Ibn Kathir Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam by Robert Spencer There's a great deal more to say about this complex religion, but I hope what I've given you today is sufficient to answer a few basic questions about the reality and truth of Islamic scripture and doctrine. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (1) The Qur'an is arranged in chapters called SURAs and verses called AYAHs. It is of one complete section, not divided into parts like the OT and the NT of the Christian Bible. (2) The apostle of Allah is Muhammad [pbuh]. He is prophet as well as apostle.

When SIN enters in - everything gets "muddled". Has God dismissed judgment because a man joins a church? Is there no punishment for sin among the wicked or the just? There certainly is. Muddling, as it is discussed here, is simply an excuse to justify wickedness, slackness and licentiousness in the church. THIS is why the spirit has departed from Christendom. We have embraced sin and wickedness and called God's holy law confusion and mud. Jesus came to fulfill the law - to act and to build and to extend and to put it in our hearts - NOT TO DISMISS IT. He certainly did not come to justify lawlessness. Was Christ a lawless man or was He the epitome of righteousness? He was right and just and we are called to follow Him in all regards. God does not wink at sin. Never has never will. Anyone who believes this or who seeks to dismiss the dictates of righteous law is in league with the devil. Be not "muddled" GOD IS NOT MOCKED for whatever a man sows THAT shall he reap. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

General news releases seem to indicate that the ruling applies to those who sell guns at gun shows. The presidential edict is questionable at several points. First, as far as I know there is no Federal mandate for background checks to be performed by the purchaser of a firearm. States, counties and cities administer this function and do not administer it well. Some do and some don't. Background checks can be applied against state or FBI databases. Sometimes both. Sometimes just the state database. Sometimes not at all. There is no clear national law on the subject because the gun trade is in most cases local, not interstate. Local trade is generally not subject to Federal jurisdiction. This is the legal nature of the dispute. Is it legal for Obama to dictate terms regarding local transactions? As of this writing, if you buy a gun from a person in another state it MUST be shipped to you via FFL persons on both ends. The seller must surrender the gun to an FLL person/shop on his end and the buyer must receive the gun from an FFL person/shop on his end. The man who receives the interstate shipped weapon from his FFL agent is required to have a background check upon receipt of his gun. The caveat to this is that the onus for proper records keeping is on the FFL agent. What if that person is a criminal or at worst a terrorist? Will they dutifully report the shipment to the US government? What do you think? For example, the state of California is said to have some of the most restrictive laws for gun ownership, transport or sale. However, state laws are administered liberally or conservatively by local counties and cities. In San Francisco, which has been declared an open city, laws are slack for every sort of offense except firearms. One cannot trade, legally use or carry a gun there. It's ok to defecate on a BART platform (BART is a public light rail transport system), but one cannot carry a concealed .38. If you travel to San Francisco you would be well advised to watch your step. I'm not kidding. In non-urban areas of California, one can open carry a gun without being bothered by the authorities. Gun ranges and gun shops in these areas are available and gun sales among private owners and gun shops are still viable. The NRA points to California as being restrictive. In actual fact, the state's rules are inconsistent at best. One may also point out that the state is also responsible for fueling MOST of the national and international motivation for purchasing guns. Movie heroes like Clint Eastwood ("Make my day" .44 auto mag/magnum revolver) or Bruce Willis' John McCain (uses a Beretta in Die Hard and Sig Saur P220R for Live Free or Die) or even James Bond (Sean Connery made the Beretta popular. Daniel Craig's SPECTER movie made the Sig Sauer P226 so popular it doubled in retail price overnight. Watch the scene in the train. Several minutes are dedicated to a demonstration and description of the Sig 226. This clip is the ultimate example of product placement in a movie.). Violence promoted by hypocritical Hollywood types fuels an active interest in firearms of all types. For the Obama edict to be prosecuted, the guns in question must have been transported across state lines. Selling one's pistol to a retired neighbor for home security may not be an offense. In many cities, police periodically support a gun buy back program. No questions asked, the cops pay cash money for guns in any condition. Honest citizens line up around the block to do their part to reduce the number of guns. Thieves stand with them. Stolen weapons are often sold to the police during these programs. No questions asked and the police department becomes a legal fencing operation for stolen firearms. Sweet. It's a win win situation for everybody except the honest citizen who surrenders their legally obtained and used firearm. The most important point I leave for last. Today the interstate traffic in firearms is rigidly controlled. One cannot, for example, ship a pistol via UPS or other carrier to another person without an FFL business or person acting as intermediary. Because FFL licensed businesses and persons make their living from obeying the law they self-regulate the operation. On the other hand, IF and that's a big IF, every arms seller is required to hold a Federal Firearms License the possibilities for abuse become legion. A criminal could ship and receive illegal arms across state lines (and internationally) and hide among the legal sheep as it were. International terrorism would flourish because it gains a legal means of obtaining guns. Does a terrorist care if he's caught at what he's doing? To date there seems to be no evidence that they do. Obama's crocodile tears on camera may be cute for the camera, but it doesn't go an inch toward crime prevention. In fact, it may instigate much that has not existed before. It's another example of a government devoid of wisdom. Possible solutions? I do not trust the Federal government. Apart from the FFL program, which has been recognized as viable and acceptable by gun collectors and dealers for years, I do not believe any additional Federal laws are necessary as far as individual owners are concerned. Why do we not hear about restrictions on the part of gun manufacturers? I'd like to know why. I$ there a rea$on do you $uppo$e? Gun laws should be consistently applied and administered by States - just like owning and operating a motor vehicle. Police buy back programs should be outlawed. Cops providing a legal fencing operation to finance thieves who steal guns ought not be allowed at all. Get the Federal government involved and the possibility for fraud and political abuse becomes intolerable. It has often been said that citizens have rights. One of those rights is that our government should administer laws without corruption. Good luck with that one. In your dreams, baby. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

simpleJeff had the best post in the thread so far. It's correct as far as everything I've read is concerned. It is vitally important that every Christian educate themselves in a basic understanding of Islam because lies about this bunch are everywhere. For example, many false scholars would have us believe that Islam is the same as Christianity. If so, then why are so many Christians persecuted with their stories hidden by the American press? If there is nothing to hide, why are our authorities and journalists working so hard to hide it? The principle differences between Islam and Christianity are; - the Qur'an denies that Jesus (Isa as He is called in it's pages) IS the son of God - the Qur'an denies that Jesus died on the cross - the Qur'an denies that Jesus' death on the cross paid the penalty for sin (in fact there is no substantive definition of sin in the Qur'an except non-membership) - the Qur'an denies the resurrection of Jesus from the dead - denies that a personal relationship with God is possible at all - the Qur'an is very inconsistent in it's opinion of "the people of the book" meaning Jews and Christians. In some passages the people of the book are to be embraced as brothers and in other it definitely says that believers (of Islam) should lay in wait and ambush the people of the book with deadly intent. Islam is the only religion on the planet that sanctions lying. "Believers when in a weakened stage in a non-Muslim country should forgive and be patient with People of the Book when they insult Allah and his prophet by any means. Believers should lie to People of the Book to protect their lives and their religion. - Ibn Taymiyah "THE SWORD ON THE NECK OF THE ACCUSER OF MUHAMMAD" Anyone who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith - but such as open their breast to unbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty. - Qur'an Surah 16:106 "Know this that lying is not sin by itself, but if it brings harm to you it could be ugly. However, you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity." - Imam Al-Ghazali (Muslim theologian and philosopher) "The principle of sanctioning lying for the cause of Islam bears grave implications in matters relating to the spread of the religion of Islam in the West. Muslim activists employ deceptive tactics in their attempts to polish Islam's image and make it more attractive to prospective converts." - Abdullan Al-Araby (Muslim theologian, philosopher and leader) There are two formal doctrines of religious deception accepted in Islam: taqiyya - (concealment) A muslim may lie about what they believe, denying aspects of their faith that are offensive [to others]. [Qur'an 16:106] Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam by Robert Spencer kitman - (mental reservation, the telling of partial truth with intention to deceive or mislead) "the scholars agreed that if a person is forced into disbelief, it is permissible for him to either go along with them in the interests of self-preservation, or to refuse." - Ibn Kathir Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam by Robert Spencer Islam teaches that salvation is by works. There is no comprehension or understanding of Grace whatsoever. Enter into it, then bear (it) patiently, or do not bear (it) patiently, it is the same to you; you shall be requited only (for) what you did. - Qur'an 52:16 Free will; Islam originally had three doctrines regarding free will or human autonomy. They were; Mutazila, Jabriyya and Murjiya. Mutazila argued on behalf of human autonomy. Jabriyya argued that the only will in the universe was that of Allah. Humans are slaves to the will of Allah. Murjiya argued that judgment should be reserved for Allah alone and that there should be a sort of political neutrality instead of aggression toward unbelievers. The current broadly accepted doctrine of free will is that there isn't any at all. It's fatalistic approach is basically the same as Christian Calvinism. DIVISIONS OF ISLAM There are two principle divisions of Islam which are contesting with one another today for political and religious control of the world's Muslim population. They are Sunni and Shia/Shiite. The Muslim religious civil war today is much like the Christian religious wars of the middle ages in Europe and have similar organization. Sunni traditionalists believe that those who control the religion ought to be elected from the Prophet's tribe (Quraysh). The Christian parallel here is western Protestantism although the candidates for 'election' and the electoral process are very dissimilar. Sunni leadership is politically determined. Shia traditionalists believe that leadership should not be left for human reason to determine. Leadership is therefore determined by the Christian equivalent of apostolic succession. Shiites look for a grand leader in the last days called Mohammad al Mahdi, the twelfth caliph (a caliph was a military leader as well as a religious one). There is obviously a great deal more to the ancient traditions of Islam and the reader would be well advised to submit to at least a brief study of them. Reasons for this are the number of lies being perpetuated upon the general population by Muslims as well as the American press which is wholly controlled by corporations who have a financial interest in active commerce with them - certainly not dispensation of truth. The reader would be well advised to do his or her homework with great diligence to learn the truth. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to remove it. Messiah Yeshuah died upon the cross that righteousness might be fulfilled, not that it might be replaced by laciviousness. The argument that Christians do not live under the law is demonic and unBiblical for we are certainly STILL bound by its precepts and ordinances. Shall the reader now take up a weapon and rob a bank to put food on his table or should he earn his money by honest labor? The answer ought to be obvious to anyone except those who wish to justify their pet sins. Salvation by grace enables the Torah in our lives. It does not provide a license to sin. Sin and its horrible meaning both in law and in our flesh is not taught in churches today. The false gospel of licentious grace is taught or implied instead. As a result the church today is no different from any other secular institution. Pulpit messages are tainted with humanism and secularism and lightly sprinkled with religious buzz words for false legitimacy in the ears of the listeners. I have sat through too many of this type of propaganda from one end of America to the other. The lies of the devil are everywhere and the church is a religion in name only. "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" - 1 Peter 4:17 What is this passage saying to us? It is based solidly upon obedience and judgment. When obedience discipline and duty to Christ are tossed aside (and private sins and fetishes secretly or openly enjoyed instead) there is no longer a joy in God or His ordinances. There is only disobedience and impending doom. Thus has the spirit been demonstrating to the church in America, "You came to me for help with your sins, but you have repeatedly ignored my wise counsel and commands. Therefore our business is concluded." The spirit has departed from the organized church. Only fools and their self-justified wickedness remain. Judgment has already arrived upon our shores and those who once covered their evil in religious clothing will wail and lament. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

And I am sure innocent people are put to death as well. There is a reason why we try to err on the side of caution. Bleeding heart liberals have brought this once great country to its knees. There is now more sympathy for the criminal than the victim, more consideration for individual debauchery and lawlessness than Godly righteousness. America has forgotten God. America has raised its collective fist in the face of the Almighty, morality and the good of the whole - and pushed individual rights to the fore. As a result, we have murdered more than 57 million babies. Where is your sympathy for this? No aborted child is even allowed a day in court, yet we slaughter them like cattle and pigs. The United States has more than one million people in prison - more than any other nation on earth. Something is wrong with the liberal attitude. We have tried liberal methods and sympathy for fifty years and the result is murder in our streets, a ruined economy and endless pointless wars. Unless we apply the rule of law, the nation as we know it will sink into oblivion. Indeed, it's already approaching the breaking point. So go on and feel sad for the bad guy. Personally, I think he or she should get what's coming to them - and in no uncertain terms. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

That would be a good thing for sure. The CIA was legislated into existence in 1948. The first thing those boys did was to help start the Korean War. According to their apology at the time, they didn't realize the North Koreans would attack the south. Right out of the gate they were misrepresenting evidence that even the newspapers of the time knew about. Devious to a fault. America would be better off without them, don't you agree? and that's me,hollering from the choir loft...

God forbid that one innocent man should die so that the people might be saved. If this philosophy were Biblical, then Christ would never have died on the cross and all of us would have a fiery destiny. I did say, however, that convicted persons should be executed. Convicted does not imply a roadside hanging by a mindless mob. Convicted means examination of evidence in a court of law and consideration by a group of citizens. The system works well enough. Prisons are full of innocent people they say. It's interesting how much sympathy is generated here for the criminal and how little is sustained for the community. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Has the reader noticed the tendency of the media to focus upon firearm incidents that include Christians as a targeted group? Has the reader noticed a singular LACK of attention upon Hollywood's preoccupation with violence and demonic subjects? I submit that the coverage we are witnessing is intended to get the Christian political right to support gun control. Make no mistake that the political left means to remove all guns including; sport use, collectables, references in education venues and personal defense. Notice throughout all of this that Hollywood, always identified with the leftists in America, does not participate in any aspect of anti-violence. Movies and TV are increasingly focused upon guns and violence for the sake of entertainment. As grievous as the Oregon and Charleston events were - have you noticed that coverage 'milks' the public for sympathy? What about the other mass shootings in America? We hear nothing of them. Since the beginning of the year 2015 and counting for two days following the Oregon shooting, there were 297 incidents of mass shootings in America (where the definition of mass shooting is the killing or wounding of 3 or more people). According to the FBI, the overwhelming majority of these are amongst lawless types, parking lot shootings behind the local bars, driveby shootings in poor neighborhoods and so on. Street violence is mass violence too, but is not acknowledged by the national media. Why is NOTHING being done to remove criminals from society - permanently? ALL attention is focused upon the law abiding citizen. Hypocritical speeches by government leadership IGNORS Hollywood's profiteering from violence (including guns that are not normally licensed for private possession). What has happened to the outcry from churches against violence in the media for entertainment? Have you checked the titles available on TV and movies lately? The majority are violent or demonic. Where is the voice of the church against Hollywood? Our kids are playing the video games and watching the stuff in theaters and on TV. Nobody cares. We just pray for the grieving victims. The use of a gun in ANY crime should be considered a capital offense with execution as punishment, not a lingering life sentence. The trafficking of illegal drugs should be punishable as a capital offense with execution as punishment, not a life sentence. Nations that have enacted and enforced laws like this do not suffer as America does. Punish the criminal, not the law abiding citizen. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

When prayers for America are solicited they are generally intended to ask for God to make our empire greater, stronger and more prosperous. They are often accompaned by: - woeful descriptions of increased violence within our borders (ignoring the crimes against humanity we have rained upon other nations), - corruption in government (ignoring the dictators we have installed in foreign countries). - abortion and human trafficking (which churches refuse to act upon in any meaningful way - including sermons in opposition) - petitions for divine deliverance according to denominational definitions (support the flag and ignore all the wickedness it now represents) - moaning about the 'good old days' (that were only good for a certain class of people) "The United States is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today." - Rev Martin Luther King, Jr. "So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you." - Jeremiah 7:16/11:14 Do you not know and can you not see O Christian, that the judgments of God are even NOW raining down upon America. We have exalted ourselves above the righteousness of God (we are too exceptional to be judged by God or anyone), we were given great power and responsibility but used it to trample upon all the nations of the world (including our allies), we were given great prosperity (and used it to arm our military beyond reason or purpose). There are those who call themselves Christian who REFUSE to hear the wickedness of our land. Instead of yielding to a repentant spirit, they cry that those who speak against war and torture and crimes against humanity are ' bashers'. Of such was John the Baptist. The 'patriots' of his day schemed against him until he lost his head to them. So it has been with all who cry out against barbarism and nations that work against God's good precepts. The lines have been drawn. A man must either be a devoted citizen of the new fascist American state, or he must be a man of conscience and devote himself to the peace and rightness that only God now represents. Blessed is the peacemaker, for he shall be called a child of God. If the peacemaker is a child of God, then who's child is the one who supports a nation that has bathed itself in the blood of innocents? These are unpopular words, but they are words that need to be considered. God does NOT support wickedness. GOD WILL NOT BLESS AMERICA. Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. John F. Kennedy "War means blind obedience, unthinking stupidity, brutish callousness, wanton destruction, and irresponsible murder." - Alexander Berkman I'm sure the censors will pounce upon these words and condemn their use here. Such an action will ultimately be weighed in the balance of history as working against God for God never vindicates nations - it is the sovereignty of God that is vindicated. THIS is the error of prayers for America. We do not ask for God's will for America - we demand OUR will for America. The judgment is this - there are two kinds of people, two kinds of nations. First is those that pray MY will be done. Second is THY will be done. God will grant these prayers. One to destruction and the other to glory. Are we to pray for God to glorify America or are we to pray for God's will of peace and righteousness? It is already too late for America. Do you not see it O Christian? Pray for those who are called by the name of Christ that they not be consumed by our wicked culture. Jesus NEVER asked His disciples to pray for the Roman Empire. He DID teach them to pray that the Father's will be done. These are dark days. Ignoring reality will not cause the clouds to part and evil to leave us. The nation is lost. Pray that we do not lose our souls as well. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

As usual, the ministry of the Holy Spirit and God's intentions on the manipulations of history in the End Times is misunderstood. The Holy Spirit will NEVER be withdrawn from the world. Get that straight from the beginning of the argument. Never means never. Therefore something else is meant by a withdrawal of restraint. The passage of 2 Thess. mentioned above is generally assumed to refer to the Great Apostasy - the falling away of men from the faith. By extension, this is assumed to mean the Church. In fact, we see this very thing happening across the globe. The church has cut itself off from its root - from Christ and the Word of God. Because of this it is withering on the vine. The removal of divine restraint may suggest God is abandoning hedonistic culture. It may mean that the Jewish canary is sick. Jewish culture teaches that it is the canary of God. Coal miners once took canaries down into the mines to detect toxic gases. If the canary sang, the air was sweet to breathe. If the canary got sick, it was time for the miners to retire. If the canary died, the air was foul and all men fled the mines. Jews say that attitudes toward the State of Israel and Jews in particular are like the canary. If Israel is respected among nations and if Jews are treated as equals, the canary is healthy. As intolerance of Israel and anti-semitism grows the canary is said to be sickening. As a nation withdraws from God, it also withdraws from Israel. As a nation rejects God, it's people also reject Jews. The canary becomes sick. When nations and people turn their backs upon God - God withdraws His blessing from them. Divine restraint is withdrawn..........hell visits the earth and its people. Consider that in all of history no nation has ever been targeted for destruction as is Israel. Will the God of Israel let the canary die? and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The word Qur'an means 'recitations' in Arabic. The original recitation was given to the prophet Mohammad [pbuh] by an angel in a cave. The book is divided into two parts, which were committed to paper approximately six hundred years after Mohammad's death. Although there is no clean division between the parts as there is in the Christian Bible, there is a definite difference in the style of the words written there. The first part was given to the prophet prior to his conquest of Mecca and the second part was given afterwards. Before the recitations were completed Mohammad admitted to his wife that he may have been listening to a demon. Why would the Bible make reference to any demonic work of literature? I submit that the little book of Revelation was something else entirely. As an after thought, I have read the Qur'an from cover to cover. It is not poetic or seductive in any way shape or form. It does not 'read' like any book I've been privileged to scan. In fact, the thing reads like a phone book. I had a question about a reference in the Qur'an and asked several Muslims about it. They asked me where I got the idea and I told them the sura (chapter) in question. They couldn't give me an answer and told me that I shouldn't read the Qur'an. "It's too confusing," they said. True story and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

There is no doubt more to the story. Chinese media are heavily monitored and censored. Would the authorities have allowed a pre-recorded program to be shown? I doubt it. I have learned that much of what we in the west are told about China is a lie. The underground church, for example, is not a secret illegal church. People in China, like people everywhere, love to talk religion and politics. They call their churches underground because they are home churches. Everyone knows where they are. My son just returned from China and was told that if you want to visit or participate in a church, but don't know where they are all you have to do is inquire at the local police station. They know and they don't care. The name of the game is taxation. If a church grows to the point a home cannot accommodate a group there are two choices; build another home group or build a venue. A religious venue is heavily taxed, but not illegal. As an aside, there are rumors that such a thing may be adopted by the US government in the future. Taxation of church real estate in America may follow the communist pattern. If so, home churches would be the answer. Will it get that bad in America? No one really knows, but the fact that the fear exists is important. A generation ago, such an idea would have been dismissed as preposterous. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Do you mind sharing where you're hearing these rumors? And, as an aside to you, churches are illegal in China. Granted they're not always prosecuted but you can't even take Bibles or Qu'rans through customs there. THAT, my friend, is fact. Not a rumor. My son returned from visiting Shanghai and Nanjing just a few weeks ago. He spent the entire month of July there. Bibles are not illegal. You can buy one in any book store. Churches are not illegal and Christians are not arrested for worshipping Jesus. My son asked a Chinese lawyer to define the term persecution. In the west, persecution means fines imprisonment social restriction etc. In China, persecution means that Christians cannot own the venue they use for gatherings. According to Chinese law, all property belongs to the people. Therefore private ownership of a building for purposes of commerce or religion is not allowed. If a group grows too large they are fined and taxed heavily. Usually this causes the group to split up into smaller congregations which are not taxed. If you want to find a church in China, any police station can direct you to one. And yes, you can take your Bible through customs. My son did.......twice ..... coming in and going out. This is what my son said and he was there only a few weeks ago. This is a fact and this is his testimony. The US media lies continuously about many things. Have you been to China recently? Tell us your experience. Do not quote internet rumor and late night comedians' jokes or the media smoke screens. Tell us what you know from personal experience or that of someone you trust personally. And please stop accusing someone of lies when you have no reason to do so. Americans eat drink and wallow in lies - when someone comes along with the truth that contradicts US government policy it seems hard to accept. Truth is like that in a repressive society such as ours. Nevertheless I speak it. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...