firestormx

Thank you for posting this. It was his views on Jews and Israel that bothered me so much. But I wasn't sure if maybe I was misunderstanding the little fragments of info I could find on his views on those subjects.

Chuck Baldwin. I came across him because of someone I know seems to like him. But some of his beliefs bother me and I was hoping since some of you here are way more informed and educated than I am you could tell me about him a little. I have never even heard of his End time Stance and view point on the mainstream Christian point of view of Israel until I looked this person up.

I agree with a lot of all of your posts which is why I haven't responded up until now. But to be clear, What you are saying is that the biblical punishment for murder, for example, which is death, still stands and should still apply.

First I'm sorry for what happened. I'm a convicted felon ( but guilty ) I've seen first hand what your talking about, including a back door deal with my own eyes to lock someone up for 22-26 years who should have only done a couple months to a year or so at most. Next, if you would like to confine this convo to the time Israel accepts Jesus as the messiah and forward that is fine with me. IMO it's all the same conversation, now, then, MK, all same to me but I don't want to be a burden or stumbling block to you.

When most christians think of the OT, IMO, they are only thinking of it in terms of religious importance. The spiritual concerns. But for Israel, God said it was to be their civil and criminal law as well. It was the guide lines for how the entire nation was to be run so there would not be anarchy. Now in Jesus Christ alone we have the blood for remission of sin. So all the stuff about sin offerings in the OT is fulfilled in Jesus. Likewise, we are the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. What Jesus makes clean is completely clean. So all the things about being clean and holy like not eating pork or wearing mixed fabric in the OT is fulfilled in Jesus. We can't establish our own righteousness it has to come from Jesus alone. Now we come to the moral parts of the OT law. What did Jesus say about them? Murder? He said if you hate your brother without cause you are guilty of murder in your heart. Adultery? Married and you Look at someone in lust then you have committed adultery already in your heart. Not only do they still apply but he put bluntly the standards of God in regards to moral behavior. So what do we have then. Remember, the OT was the religious, civil and criminal law of the nation. Well, a lot of the Religious are wrapped up in Jesus. But what about the civil and criminal? Do they still apply? Doesn't Jesus say Love is the fulfilling of the law? Should we just stand by and let people Rape and Murder and do nothing but love them? Is that what Jesus really meant? Did Jesus abolish the entire Criminal and Civil law of Israel with all it's punishment and offer up nothing to replace it? Just some thoughts I have... Firestormx

but that was because they were perverting justice for their own ends. They weren't trying to follow what God said or they would have brought the man as well.

You're not answering my question. What civil and criminal law should Israel be using? because it was the OT law.

but that means no punishment on earth for murder or adultery because it was death. So God eliminated the punishments for the worst crimes and replaced it with nothing...correct?

Nice post but unfortunately you didn't once answer my question. The OT was not just the spiritual guide lines of Israel but also their civil law. Their civil law like the US constitution or bill of rights. If the OT law no longer applies then what civil law should Israel be using?

By here and now I just meant that the OT punishments were to be carried out here and now on earth and not judgement day.

God said that the death penalty was for here and now for somethings as well. However, My original question still stands. If the punishments that GOD set are no longer good enough, then what civil law and penalties would or should Israel be under? PS. if I'm frustrating you, then I'm sorry , just trying to figure some things out in my head.

But it was God who said Adultery was worthy of death

Because most people do when questioned. This all stems from a divorce and remarriage conversation. but the broader point is the same and got me wondering about law and punishment. The OT wasn't just spiritual guide lines to Israel, it was also there civil law. So if the law and it's punishments have been done away with, then what would be the civil law now?

Ok, Let me make sure I understand you. God says the punishment for Adultery is death in the OT but now in NT times your spouse can commit unrepentant adultery endless and there should be no civil penalty for it...correct?

Yes, I think. So Adultery or rape ( for example ) should still require the death penalty?

So what about murder or adultery here and now? Should there no punishment on earth for any sin anymore? I am trying to wrap my head around something I don't know if I can describe it well. Take Adultery for example. In the OT adultery was not a Divorce question it was a criminal and spiritual question. Breaking it required the death penalty. Should it still? There was a reason that it was not to be tolerated. It's a about morality and God's morality never changes. So does the consequences on this earth for adultery or any moral sin vanish simply because the shed blood needed for remission of sin is now Christ's alone? Should murder, rape and adultery have no earthly consequence? In the OT the civil law was the spiritual law. What should it be now? Should unrepentant adultery still require the death penalty?

So what about murder or adultery? Would there still be a death penalty? Would anarchy reign? Jesus is in heaven so should there be prisons or a death penalty at all? Should there no punishment on earth for any sin anymore?

If the old testament law and it's punishment have been done away with in Jesus Christ, then What would Israel live under? They lived under the OT law, so if it's been done away with, then for example there is no longer a death penalty for adultery. So you could in the land of Israel commit adultery without any punishment until the day you stand before God. In fact, you can do anything because there is no punishment for anything. Murder or rape it just doesn't matter because there is no punishment. How does the grace and Love of the new punishment mix with the punishment and the death penalty for breaking the law? If the Nation of Israel believed Jesus does this mean no punishment for any broken commandments of God until you stand before him on Judgement day?

Peace comes only from Jesus. Only from above. God wants everything you're willing to give of yourself. If you can only read a verse or two from the scripture a day then start with that. If you can only spend a few minutes in heartfelt prayer, then just do that. If you want peace, the peace that only comes from above and from the Lord Jesus. Then you have to spend time with him. Maybe the tug is God asking you for some more of your time with him...maybe?

I have tried to edit the post above, but it will not let me. If a Mod could make sure the post above is correct in size and then delete this post I would be grateful.

Simply put there are about to big changes in your life ( probably at your work or what would be considered your work ) and God is letting you know ahead of time it's not random it's consequences from him that he is allowing to come upon people. Death in dreams is rarely literal. When people around me dream of co-workers dying it usually manifests as people being fired or getting in serious trouble. Taking a different car than your boss is just showing you will have a different reaction and response to what is happening than those in positions of authority around you. Any other questions just ask. I will pray about your questions and get back to you. But remember, God doesn't give us a spirit of fear but of love, power, and a sound mind. If it was of God, then have peace. When the dream starts to manifest in real life he will bring it back to your memory.

JOB 33 14-15 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; JOEL 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: JOHN 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jude 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

I was going to post to this as well but OneLight said almost word for word what I was going to say, so I will just quote him.

will do, thanks