firestormx

54 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Can anyone tell me about Chuck Baldwin?

Conclusion

Pastor Baldwin, you took a private conversation public, and you did it with vindictiveness and lies.  These are not the actions of a man of God.

Please pray for Pastor Baldwin and pray for us.  We all need to draw nearer to the King of Glory, Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, and King of the Jews.

 

Thank you for posting this. It was his views on Jews and Israel that bothered me so much. But I wasn't sure if maybe I was misunderstanding the little fragments of info I could find on his views on those subjects.

Chuck Baldwin. I came across him because of someone I know seems to like him. But some of his beliefs bother me and I was hoping since some of you here are way more informed and educated than I am you could tell me about him a little. I have never even heard of his End time Stance and view point on the mainstream Christian point of view of Israel until I looked this person up.

7 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

Ok.. so Paul said (from memory not a direct quote so find it and read it) you were all once adulterers, thieves, murders, slandered. But in Christ you are new creations and no longer those things.

We all face death of our flesh because of our sins. We do not get out of that judgment of sin of the flesh.

But that dead man walking we are and waiting for the grave He will be put in for our sin. Can have a life in Christ with that new creation Christ has put in us by heavenly seed. When Jesus returns for the millions kingdom, we are changed in the twinkle of an eye. So you and me and all of us are gonna die for sin or be changed.

 I am convinced till Christ or the word shows me different our new creation is what will dwell with Christ in the millennial  kingdom and may be subjected to one more purge to completely destroy all the work of sin seeded in the flesh and Satan. 

I agree with a lot of all of your posts which is why I haven't responded up until now. But to be clear, What you are saying is that the biblical punishment for murder, for example, which is death, still stands and should still apply.

32 minutes ago, other one said:

I didn't say that they would not receive consequences, just not death.       no justice system in the world today is free of corruption that I am aware of...   and capitol punishment is pretty final.       I have family that was falsely convicted of Rape and got 17 years for it....   could not get a parole unless he admitted he was guilty so he spent the entire 17 years in prison....   We had tried for ten of those years to get the clothes the lady was wearing to do DNA testing on it and it was misplaced until three weeks after his time was over.   Sure enough the DNA test showed he was not guilty but the system here would still not take him off the sexual predator list and felon which hounded him till his death.  Turns out that the DA's office had put a large number of people in jail from corrupt forensic findings.

So from my point of view that punishment is not safe to use till Jesus comes back and knows what really happened...

First I'm sorry for what happened. I'm a convicted felon ( but guilty ) I've seen first hand what your talking about, including a back door deal with my own eyes to lock someone up for 22-26 years who should have only done a couple months to a year or so at most. Next, if you would like to confine this convo to the time Israel accepts Jesus as the messiah and forward that is fine with me. IMO it's all the same conversation, now, then, MK, all same to me but I don't want to be a burden or stumbling block to you.

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Okay here is my new thinking after giving it some more thought, but you should know, this is all new to me. 

Yes, in the OT.....you were to be killed for murder (leave out adultery for this discussion). (consequence of actions)

So, does the emergence of the New Covenant in Israel ( the nations might be different) change the administering of consequences for sin?

Spock

 When most christians think of the OT, IMO, they are only thinking of it in terms of religious importance. The spiritual concerns. But for Israel, God said it was to be their civil and criminal law as well. It was the guide lines for how the entire nation was to be run so there would not be anarchy.

 Now in Jesus Christ alone we have the blood for remission of sin. So all the stuff about sin offerings in the OT is fulfilled in Jesus. Likewise, we are the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. What Jesus makes clean is completely clean. So all the things about being clean and holy like not eating pork or wearing mixed fabric in the OT is fulfilled in Jesus. We can't establish our own righteousness it has to come from Jesus alone. 

Now we come to the moral parts of the OT law. What did Jesus say about them? Murder? He said if you hate your brother without cause you are guilty of murder in your heart. Adultery? Married and you Look at someone in lust then you have committed adultery already in your heart. Not only do they still apply but he put bluntly the standards of God in regards to moral behavior. 

So what do we have then. Remember, the OT was the religious, civil and criminal law of the nation. Well, a lot of the Religious are wrapped up in Jesus. But what about the civil and criminal? Do they still apply? Doesn't Jesus say Love is the fulfilling of the law? Should we just stand by and let people Rape and Murder and do nothing but love them? Is that what Jesus really meant? Did Jesus abolish the entire Criminal and Civil law of Israel with all it's punishment and offer up nothing to replace it?

Just some thoughts I have...

Firestormx

46 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Jesus is God, He said let the man among you without sin cast the first stone too.

Also the concept of an eye for an eye is not a minimum but instead is a maximum concept of penalty. Those that exceeded limits of God and did punish with meanness and excess where punished themselves by God for their excess and their cruelty.

but that was because they were perverting justice for their own ends. They weren't trying to follow what God said or they would have brought the man as well. 

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

The premise is simply incorrect. The Law of the prophets is not done away but instead is fulfilled in Jesus, and even stepped up a notch by  the declaration of Jesus who is God.

You're not answering my question. What civil and criminal law should Israel be using? because it was the OT law.

4 minutes ago, Spock said:

No, like I previously said.....no more stoning. That part of the NC would kick in. 

I think some part of the ceremonial/civil would still be implemented, and of course the 10 commandments would still be in effect, including Sabbath Day, but grace kicks out stoning. 

but that means no punishment on earth for murder or adultery because it was death. So God eliminated the punishments for the worst crimes and replaced it with nothing...correct?

46 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

The old testament is more that  the Law of Moses given by God. The rabbinic law is less than the OT too.

 The idea of a divide is  a paralyzing way  of looking at the Bible. It is one continuous reveal of Jesus.

The first Christians were  for the most part Jews. Israelis, living  under both the religious law of the Jews while under the command and civil law of the Roman empire outpost commander.

Jesus  never came to banish the law of Moses. He fulfilled it. That is how grace and mercy came to satisfy the requirement of Moses Law.  Jesus who is God, God the Son, came to do the will of His Father. He sacrificed on the cross with his own blood, His blood was shed to cover the sins of all of humanity that have been given Him by His Father. He loses not a one. He died. That which was perfect, and is God, became fully man as well as fully God, died - arose - and ascended, conquering death  the final enemy.

Death's demand was satisfied by  that which could satisfy it's demand. The only perfect sacrifice, Jesus,  was made. No other is demanded for none other may satisfy the need to cover sin, so that God the father may behold set sight on a man,as god cannot abide the sight of sin.

 In the blood of Christ is the sin washed clean so that the sinner is seen as clean washed white as snow and is found acceptable  in the sight of God.

Jesus did not remove the law, He upped the ante, for he declared that  even the thought of doing sin is sin, same as the act itself. Under that withering judgement no man can stand. But Jesus who is God also reconciled the dilemma that no man can. He died in place of all that  should die so that many may be saved.

 

 

Nice post but unfortunately you didn't once answer my question. The OT was not just the spiritual guide lines of Israel but also their civil law. Their civil law like the US constitution or bill of rights. If the OT law no longer applies then what civil law should Israel be using?  

1 hour ago, other one said:

where in the NT does God say the death penalty is for the here and now? If it's there I am not aware of it.

What Jesus said was to live under whatever civil law was in effect.  I personally don't see where the NT covers the subject at all.    If they are going to go back to the original laws, I see a conflict between sacrifice and mercy that exists between the two covenants.     When you use capitol punishment, you are taking away the possibility of a person repenting and just send them to hell.  I'm not comfortable with that.    But I am surely not ok with accepting the gay lifestyle as normal....    neither adultery fornication or any perverted sex.....    but killing people over it is just too far for me..

By here and now I just meant that the OT punishments were to be carried out here and now on earth and not judgement day.

Just now, other one said:

and God will kill them when the time comes....   Jesus changed life when he came and died for our sins....    He wants mercy and not sacrifice these days.

We do have to have laws to be able to live with each other these days because not all of us are born again Christians....   but I don't see us going back to the OT laws for every day living.   If that's what you are looking for go to an Islamic country and pay the tax and they should let you live under laws that are pretty much right out of the OT.

God said that the death penalty was for here and now for somethings as well. However, My original question still stands. If the punishments that GOD set are no longer good enough, then what civil law and penalties would or should Israel be under?

PS. if I'm frustrating you, then I'm sorry , just trying to figure some things out in my head.

2 minutes ago, other one said:

Would I kill anyone over adultery.....     no I would not.   Actually I do not like capitol punishment at all largely because our justice system is corrupt and makes way too many mistakes.

But it was God who said Adultery was worthy of death

2 minutes ago, other one said:

why do you push things to the ultimate limits on things....           

Because most people do when questioned. This all stems from a divorce and remarriage conversation. but the broader point is the same and got me wondering about law and punishment. The OT wasn't just spiritual guide lines to Israel, it was also there civil law. So if the law and it's punishments have been done away with, then what would be the civil law now?

Just now, other one said:

I don't think Jesus required the death penalty in the instances that were brought to him...

Ok, Let me make sure I understand you. God says the punishment for Adultery is death in the OT but now in NT times your spouse can commit unrepentant adultery endless and there should be no civil penalty for it...correct?

2 minutes ago, other one said:

Were there any prisons in the Days of the Old Testament....   Until the Romans came along?

Yes, I think. So Adultery or rape ( for example ) should still require the death penalty?

1 hour ago, Willa said:

1Ti 1:9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

The law is still for the unrighteous.     Jesus will rule in the millennium with a rod of iron.   There will be none of the soft on crime that you wish for.  It will be very hard on law breaking.

So what about murder or adultery here and now? Should there no punishment on earth for any sin anymore? I am trying to wrap my head around something I don't know if I can describe it well. Take Adultery for example. In the OT adultery was not a Divorce question it was a criminal and spiritual question. Breaking it required the death penalty. Should it still? There was a reason that it was not to be tolerated. It's a about morality and God's morality never changes. So does the consequences on this earth for adultery or any moral sin vanish simply because the shed blood needed for remission of sin is now Christ's alone?  Should murder, rape and adultery have no earthly consequence? In the OT the civil law was the spiritual law. What should it be now? Should unrepentant adultery still require the death penalty? 

3 hours ago, Spock said:

Interesting question....

I have to believe a combination of the two.....New Covenant and Mosaic Law.

Jesus proclaimed and Jeremiah foretold the New Covenant so you would expect that would be in play, but I’ve attended a Messianic Congregation where Jew and Gentile worship together and I noticed many of the Jewish members were still kosher and still wore their tallit and kippa if that means anything. 

Im pretty sure no one would be stoned anymore....

 

So what about murder or adultery? Would there still be a death penalty? Would anarchy reign? Jesus is in heaven so should there be prisons or a death penalty at all?  Should there no punishment on earth for any sin anymore?

If the old testament law and it's punishment have been done away with in Jesus Christ, then What would Israel live under? They lived under the OT law, so if it's been done away with, then for example there is no longer a death penalty for adultery. So you could in the land of Israel commit adultery without any punishment until the day you stand before God. In fact, you can do anything because there is no punishment for anything. Murder or rape it just doesn't matter because there is no punishment.

How does the grace and Love of the new punishment mix with the punishment and the death penalty for breaking the law? If the Nation of Israel believed Jesus does this mean no punishment for any broken commandments of God until you stand before him on Judgement day?

8 minutes ago, Figure of eighty said:

Yes this is true. Ive had a few come true. 

 

Its just distinguishing which is from God and which is not.. I feel this ome is. 

 

I couldnt quote your other post so ill write what all i have to say in this one. First i want to thnak you for your opinion.. 

 

As for other questions... In a way i feel like its kind of a tug for me...  Because prior to sleeping i just felt kinda depressed and just wanted to go ( i won't..you know how u get fed up with life?) 

But seeing my brother have visions of people who passed and didnt make it ..kind of made me think differently and try harder om this plane. 

 

Also it makes me wonder where i am spiritually. I rarely go to church or read ... I pray sparingly... 

So maybe my brothers vision was for myself as well.  

But thank you for everyrhing.

Peace comes only from Jesus. Only from above. God wants everything you're willing to give of yourself. If you can only read a verse or two from the scripture a day then start with that. If you can only spend a few minutes in heartfelt prayer, then just do that. If you want peace, the peace that only comes from above and from the Lord Jesus. Then you have to spend time with him. Maybe the tug is God asking you for some more of your time with him...maybe? 

4 minutes ago, firestormx said:

Simply put there are about to big changes in your life ( probably at your work or what would be considered your work ) and God is letting you know ahead of time it's not random it's consequences from him that he is allowing to come upon people. Death in dreams is rarely literal.  When people around me dream of co-workers dying it usually manifests as people being fired or getting in serious trouble. Taking a different car than your boss is just showing you will have a different reaction and response to what is happening than those in positions of authority around you. Any other questions just ask. I will pray about your questions and get back to you. But remember, God doesn't give us a spirit of fear but of love, power, and a sound mind. If it was of God, then have peace. When the dream starts to manifest in real life he will bring it back to your memory.

I have tried to edit the post above, but it will not let me. If a Mod could make sure the post above is correct in size and then delete this post I would be grateful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Figure of eighty said:

Dream: okay... I was at my bosses house and she needed to get something and we took seperate vehicles... 

I went the wrong way however I saw my coworkers and they were under a tent... But there was a casket and there were 2 bodies in it. Both coworkers.  One was waking up but the other was defintely dead... 

I left and came back and the casket was closed... After the funeral ...(it was a Sunday) 

My brother ( who is a minister; I met up with him) He told me he kept having visions of people who were beinf judged ( as soon as they passed and after they were judged) He said it wasnt good for them at all. Meaning they didnt make it. 

 

When i went in the house...i broke down bc i saw my coworker rhat dies. I saw his spirit ..in my house ...and i just remembered how kind and vibrant he was and i just broke down and cried. Because i knew he didnt make ir at all.

 

To cope i almost took pills but had sex instead... 

 

Very odd dream. It creeps me out. 

What do u think?

Simply put there are about to big changes in your life ( probably at your work or what would be considered your work ) and God is letting you know ahead of time it's not random it's consequences from him that he is allowing to come upon people. Death in dreams is rarely literal.  When people around me dream of co-workers dying it usually manifests as people being fired or getting in serious trouble. Taking a different car than your boss is just showing you will have a different reaction and response to what is happening than those in positions of authority around you. Any other questions just ask. I will pray about your questions and get back to you. But remember, God doesn't give us a spirit of fear but of love, power, and a sound mind. If it was of God, then have peace. When the dream starts to manifest in real life he will bring it back to your memory.

21 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I don't take dreams seriously. It is just your brain processing your subconscious while you sleep.

JOB 33 14-15

 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;

JOEL 2:28

 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

JOHN 16:13

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

15 minutes ago, Willa said:

Hellfire and damnation drove me and a lot of other folks away from Christianity.  I needed to hear of the love and forgiveness of God..  Like you say, to each his own.  And in that way all will have a chance to hear and be saved.  

Jude  22

And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

6 hours ago, George said:

Shalom everyone,

I'm curious ... what do you BELIEVE is the BEST way to RECOVER someone who you believe is in ERROR?  I'm doing a forum test ... to see who really understands how to reach someone ... whom you believe is WRONG!

Do I have any takers?

God bless,

George

I was going to post to this as well but OneLight said almost word for word what I was going to say, so I will just quote him.

6 hours ago, OneLight said:

I'll bite!

After praying and seeking the Lord on the matter, if led to, I would ask to speak to them in private and discuss the issue in love.  This may take more than one time, as with love, it is enduring and not a one time shot.  If, after time, the sinner refuses to turn away from their sin, then bring in one or two other loving believers to try again.  The very last step would be to bring it in front of the body of Christ as humiliation usually builds walls, not break them down.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Prophecy The 9 Wars of the End Times, Part 1 YOUTUBE 

Type the above in on Youtube it's a 28 minute video, far easier to just look at it there. 

By the way it's not my understanding in full, but I agree with many of his understandings. You can decide for yourself.

will do, thanks