franciskelsey

Interesting to note, one book at my house places I believe 19 quotes in the NT from 1 Enoch. I must say however, a known book does not make it inspired. Very interesting points you have brought up. In the sections I have read of 1 Enoch, and other such books, there does seem to be a bit of truth for sure. Adam and Even brought up the "fact" before the fall animals could talk to and like humans, thus implying how Satan was able to subdue Eve in the garden, however, in this story and in many like it, it often caters to self, Greek mythology, or almost seems to take a view point of Satan in that it expresses that side or take on some of the stories. In saying that, I have so much more to learn yet. Funny thing about me, I do not like to conclude anything is fact until I can know for certain, and can prove, at least to myself, that such and such is true. Concerning the Genesis account, I have yet to come to that point there fore at this time I am still learning much and am all ears. Concerning stories shared in many other cultures, we find this to be true of other things from Gen. as well, like the flood, the human race starting from one man and one woman, the garden of Eden, and more for sure. All of these stories, if one considers the bible historic fact, (as I do) would of had to come from Noah after the flood (and his family). It is hard to say how many years there was between the separation of the human race and the writing of Genesis, though there have been some educated guesses. That being said, is it really possible that all stories around the world came from the Jewish understanding of Genesis? Being that the believes are often much different this is almost impossible to be the case, thus it is a very convincing view concerning the fallen angels in relation to the world wide stories. I do sometimes wonder if I will come to a defining certain answer answer, even for myself, but I sure am working on it. I really do appreciate all of the thoughts that have been displayed. In knowing all the truth in Gods word we do must try to consider everything that there is believed to be some truth to it, though absolute can only be found in one source, of course. Thanks for the patience shown in regards to my timing. God bless ya all. PS Diatheosis, thank you for your story. I must say I cannot relate too much for sure. I am glad you found the true Jesus. I do believe every Christian struggles with learning to discern the spirits (the Holy Spirit versing the spirit of the fallen ones) a good share of their Christian life and walk. May Jesus always be with and guard us all from the deceptions of Satan and his lies and lead us to the one and only truth that can be found in Jesus of Nazareth alone. Praise the Lord our Father. He will prevail and we will prevail with Him, through His power alone. Amen.

Interesting point concerning the sons of God. The verse beginning with the mention of them ends with Gen 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown." Were Seth's lineage some how different genetically for this conclusion? And why to separate folks into two groups since all originate from Adam and Eve? Implying the word son בֵּן (bēn) refers to a different status which it according to Strong can do, that also expands the possibilities to include other entities. I did not expect to reply yet thus I left all my study papers at home and for that matter I still have not have completely made up my mind. In Exodus we find God calling Israel His son and in Psalm we I believe 83 we find the term for what appears to be the sons of God as all who worship God. Some believe in a separation only being of those who obey God and those who did not, however there is hints of following God on the Seth side with no hints and in fact, perhaps the opposite on the other branch. All in all I see no clear passage in separating the two lines though the possibility exist. This would almost imply an attitude or way of living based on the above fact than a race of people. Knowing the term means "fallen ones" it is not certain as to what to make of it but a way of living is possible. The bible states these neps were there at (or before) the time of the debated scripture occurrence and after, there fore only the men of old and renown (men of great statue of placement) were the offspring of such and not the "giants". It is true that in the "lost books" of 1 Enoch and Adam and Eve as well is Josephus had writings or believed such as the demon (fallen angel account) and it was even Jewish historic thought from what I read. The question is what do we believe? The early church has always been against this idea and the "lost books" were never thought of is inspired and in fact, they hated these writings and called them out against God. Josephus just wrote what was Jewish tradition. If one believes in the "lost books" accounts one must also believe in all the other crazy stuff found in these writings including the 2,3, and 4th Enoch. Do we believe the word of God or Greek mythological writings? As we know, Jewish tradition has not always had things right either. To further the problem, we have to go against what Jesus states about angels and the fact they CANNOT marry, and that is what these Sons of God did, they married. Not just had sex. No where else in scripture can we find such writings. Concerning the rest of your post, praise the Lord. You have certainly have had more experiences with this sort of thing than me. On a finale note for now, I have been looking into the possibility of sons of God being leaders or judges. Look up the word for God used there you will see it was used for judges 5 times I believe and in Psalms the leaders are called Gods. Jesus quotes this in John. In Psalms you can even see the written difference of them and "men". I still have some research to do. I wish I had all of my study scripture here with me. It is an interesting topic. I also have trouble when realizing the only ones God seemed angry at was men and not the angels. The usual cross scripture used for the belief in angels just does not hold up at all. Anyhow, thanks again for bringing my interest up here. I should have a conclusion for sure by next week. I will post my concluding thoughts than with scripture. God bless,

Interesting point concerning the sons of God. The verse beginning with the mention of them ends with Gen 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown." Were Seth's lineage some how different genetically for this conclusion? And why to separate folks into two groups since all originate from Adam and Eve? Implying the word son בֵּן (bēn) refers to a different status which it according to Strong can do, that also expands the possibilities to include other entities. What would make of the word nephilim on an other account later on? Although not scriptural, most of the civilized cultures (meaning they could record their past in one way or another) speak of beings coming down from above who began to interact with the humanity. This is not only written of but depicted on many occasion. Did all of them simply made this stuff up? Especially in Sumer their tablets speak of quite amazing things. Sure, sometimes interpreting the Word is not made easy, and the Holy Spirit even may struggle make us understand as we often are quite slow to understand things which do not fit our world view. I agree with what the other one said: the Bible is not a record of dark arts etc. It speaks of many a thing but does not go into too much detail. The point probably being, neither should we put all our time and energy on the dark side, but it sure is important to know the enemy and his ways. As for the end time perspective, I don't know the hour, but I see lots of activity gaining momentum in this world. Many await aliens to rescue us, and I even used to co-operate with some beings years ago while I doing my astral travel and other stuff. So knowing of the deception can be of importance in this sense. Hence knowing of the subject and especially how to proceed with these things may in some occasion actually make your day. It sure is not to wave the flag and show off the power of your faith, but sometimes we might be led by the Lord to put things in order. By then our thoughts should really be aligned with the Lord though. The more and the deeper we work with God, the greater the possibility we will encounter this stuff. It's not maybe everyone's calling but you never know. Come hell or high water, everything is about the name of Jesus no matter what follows. If you are new in faith and feel like it' s some cool stuff be patient in your praying and discerning what God actually wants for you to proceed with. These things may sound like 'cool' (hollywood associations at work then) but the stuff is real and must be dealt properly otherwise you just make yourself a target. Be sure to first follow Jesus in what He actually instructs us (hint: read the Bible and get born again from the spirit, then receive the gifts of the Spirit God will grand you). Although even the spirits may then be subject to you, mind not that but rejoice your name is written in the book of life and praise the Lord. The more you actually work for God will already get Satan worried. And he tries to convince us it's not worth to follow Christ. I've met the former a couple times when he was hoping I would curse God due to certain conditions back then but I find no glory in him, so I will just stick with my Savior and Creator instead. Sometimes I just find the devil so dumb. Actually rise against the Creator of all life and try to replace Him? Go figure, he used to be an angel of light. Pride doth go before the fall. But yeah, Jesus is the answer and the solution. Praise Him. Unfortunately right now I have to venture to the library to use the computer (Hoping that will change again next month) so I cannot comment much, and being there is already many topics on the same. Fact is, you have brought one very interesting thing to me in regards to the stories of many across the world concerning such. I have quite a few books at the house so, to be honest, so far on this topic my research has been on the light side, but I will dig much deeper into this in the next week and if it is all right with you I will just give you a PM of any thing new I have came across. My believe in this way of thinking is not concrete. You have asked a few god questions. Thank you for stirring up my interest in this topic. God bless

I agree with the start post but of course it is hard to back up all things with scripture on a solid level. However, concerning the Gen. account I differ, believing the sons of God were of the Seth line and not fallen angels. I can find no place that the sons of God are ever called fallen angels and I also could not find any valid claims of woman becoming pregnant with such encounters. However, I know that is most likely already on another thread. There is most certainly evil spirits all around us and they can cater to our desires to win us over. I do believe all ghost/aliens on this earth are demonic. However, there is what seems to be a variety of different creatures and/or angels in the presence of God. Are they all angels or are there other creatures up there as well. Time will tell.

Sorry Joe, sometimes I tend to skip over some post sometimes. Fantastic job for the answer. I am glad I looked into it though. Seems some things stick in my head more that way. God bless

I am sure some others can give you much more insight than me but on my findings they are certainly different. The very basics are, from what I read in my two books on the Quakers, they consider themselves a third sect of Christians (friends) meaning not Catholic, not Protestant but Quaker. They put spirituality as #1. The only true "must believes" are no war and a moral busy standard of life. They debate little is little is absolute and most things are left up to you and the "inner light" including the deity of Jesus Christ and the Trinity as well is abortion. They believe in Jesus but leave it up to each person to determine who Jesus is and/or how He relates to their inner light. They believe in spiritual baptism but do not allow water baptism. Any rituals are forbidden and though some sects have changed a bit now it was traditional to meet on Sunday and have no singing or preaching. They let the Spirit move their time together, Their seems to be no true leader and every one as held to equal standards though some have more prominent roles in leadership and decision making. They have no Creeds or real doctrines as every one decides with their own inner light. It should be notes they do consider themselves Christian and they do believe in God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, though the trinity and deity is left to each person as to what to believe. The same is true for heaven and hell. There is no right and wrong answer in these regards. It is all about learning and discerning from your inner light, which I am sure is generally considered the Spirit, however, as every thing else, they have no standard on grace nor sin either. It is almost as most things are just up in the air and left up to the persons inner light though they regard the bible extremely high and read it much. They do have different sects with slightly different traditions or beliefs. In general, a sect seems to be what they are in a way. I believe many are Christian but I believe "friendship" and inner light plays a bigger role than any "Christian doctrine" or what the bible states clearly. Good, busy, holy lives are what they are all about but they go about it in a "inner light feel good" sort of way. They seem to substitute "inner light" with biblical doctrine. That being said, I believe I will stay believing what the bible states is true.

I got a book on it. Let me see if I can post their basics after a bit. My laptop is not running good right now. It has been on 2 hours straight. LOL I will post later. I gotta let my laptop take a break

OOOO K then. Other than the thief on the cross, what makes you believe in point #1? Other that OT scripture in which some speak of your body being in the grave what scripture do you use for this? Also, PLEASE address scripture I gave in the last post of the last (1st page) page of this thread. (a click on the back button.) And point #3 -- #4 -- and MOST OF ALL -- #5 Please do not keep us in wondering my friend, but it does appear you are getting some info from WAYYY outside of scripture my friend. God bless

True, and Jesus is life, but I am still not crossing on foot a busy city freeway or trying to fly like a bird when I am not one from a cliff. I think Jesus had something to say to the ole devil relating to this one. Exactly. Like going to the desert with no water or making your home in the ocean with no boat. It's like if your father made you a nice tree house but you wanted to relax in the middle of the pond instead. Truly though, I highly doubt this will ever happen. There is way too much we do not know. We do know one thing for sure. This little planet God gave us, we can live a while here. I think I will keep the gift of God. Does it not say something when every other planet in the system is believed to be uninhabitable?

If they ever truly do launch off, which I doubt, it would be a death sentence.

NEW LIVING TRANSLATION 16Lord, in distress we searched for you. We prayed beneath the burden of your discipline. 17Just as a pregnant woman writhes and cries out in pain as she gives birth, so were we in your presence, Lord. 18We, too, writhe in agony, but nothing comes of our suffering. We have not given salvation to the earth, nor brought life into the world. 19But those who die in the Lord will live; their bodies will rise again! Those who sleep in the earth will rise up and sing for joy! For your life-giving light will fall like dew on your people in the place of the dead! Restoration for Israel 20Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the Lord’s anger has passed. 21Look! The Lord is coming from heaven to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed. They will be brought out for all to see. I believe a lot can be said about what you do with the connection of verse 19 and 20. If it were to be a pre trib verse why would we lock our doors behind us? To me, this scripture implies that though there is hope and a promise, until that time comes, when Gods wrath unfolds, should go inside, lock our doors until the wrath (or tribulation) is over. It can be seen all over across the oceans now on how many under ground churches that are present. They cannot be seen or known for fear of death. There could be more than one way to look at the scripture but for me, I see it is remaining in our hope and promises of God despite and through all what will come, because at the end, we have the blessed hope of His returning and resurrection. It is hard for me to understand the concept of locking our doors to our mansions in heaven. You know what I'm saying. It is an interesting area of scripture. Thanks for sharing. God bless

Scripture in part 2 Corinthians 5:6 and 8 -- while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. (I would) prefer rather be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Hebrew 12:22-23 -- But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God -- to the general assembly and church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect. It is important to note, "paradise" is another term for heaven in the NT. via 2 Corinthians 12:2,4 -- caught up to the third heaven -- was caught up into paradise. Now we can move on. (PS this was believed to be Paul when he was stoned and thought to be dead) Luke 23:43 Today you shall be with Me in paradise. (Jesus talking to the other man on the cross) Philippians 1:23 -- (I have) the desire to part and to be with Christ. (I do not believe I have to quote where Jesus presently resides - in heaven at the right side of the Father) 2 Thessalonians 5:10 (Christ died for us) so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. (that is, when we die and are in spirit we will live with Him though He presently does reside in all believers hearts through the Holy Spirit.) There are also passages in Revelation but I will not use those for fear of another rapture debate as those who believe in pre trib believe at the start of chapter 4 the saints are taken to heaven. In typing and looking up these passages it amazes me how much I do not know and how much more I want to know of our great God. The biggest thing I wanted to show and give was certainty of believers going to heaven when we die. Even on the internet these days it seems hard to find truthful sites thus I am glad I still resort to books a lot of times. God bless and take care Gods family.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXAqoZuYvyA

I know when you are going through tough times people quoting scripture does not seem adequate even though we know these are the very words that give us life and truth. I have been tempted much and have not always passed the test despite my efforts. I must say though, God is forgiving and was with me the whole time. He does understand our weaknesses. I have suffered greatly and will suffer much more, though my suffering fails in comparison to many others. Sometimes when we are suffering it seems to feel like when Jesus was dying on the cross and cried out, "Why have You forsaken Me?". Sometimes it is not until after the pain that we can clearly see and know that Jesus was indeed with us. I think it helps sometimes to read the stories in the bible and to try to comprehend what they went through and their accomplishments, failures and suffering. Remember in the midst of suffering Job cried out to God but just could not understand? There is a reason for every suffering and every failure even though we may never know that reasoning here. You may never know how many people may be lead to Christ by your endurance in faith through suffering. God has never told us He will always give us the answers we are looking for but He did say and is always with us even up to the point and through death. Reading the stories of suffering Christians are so inspiring. Reading the results bring tears to the eyes because it is then we know God was and is there continually. Be strong, keep the faith, ask forgiveness when needed, and He will show Himself truthful and faithful in the end. Remember we are called to suffer in this life. Also remember Gods promises even when we can not sense His presence. It is by this faith He rewards us greatly and trains us and gives us the ability and always and forever to live on His promises alone. Please seek help from your local Christ family as sometimes our internet family cannot give us the same personal help and touch in the way that we need. These are why we are called family, to help others in time of need and to help others see the eyes of Jesus Christ during their most painful time of suffering. Also remember time heals many things.