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5 hours ago, BobRyan said:

The idea is that Mary could be born sinless - from a sinful mother. But Jesus could not do that - He would need a sinless mother. So then Mary was born sinless even though her mother was a fallen human being with a sinful nature.

this idea makes no sense though, for whoever lives by it

if Mary was sinless, there would be no point in Jesus' coming in the first place. Mary was a great woman, no one can deny that, but she was as human as anyone else.

On 2/6/2017 at 0:53 PM, Ezra said:

This is clearly unacceptable, and these people need to be held accountable for making a public display of their foolishness, and bringing shame to Christ. Ideally Christians should not even be using Facebook, since it is generally self-indulgence.

how is Facebook any different than this? Facebook is for connecting with people, debate on things if desired, and people posts stuff that amuses them. very similar to message boards

you can't post "here's MY take" and then tell everyone else that they're wrong for disapproving of your opinion when that's what a forums is for, to discuss. 

Plus it doesn't matter what a personal take is on something when the biblical/absolute truth can't be taken differently.

There is no point in posting something and then being rude to everyone who disagrees, especially without showing evidence. 

check the dress code for the event

i say you can't go wrong with dressing up for those kind of events 

 

Hello Christian Forums,

 

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. It puts me into a very confused and angry state anytime I try thinking about it. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

 

MY QUESTION:

How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two  humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

 

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

 

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have? 

 

Thanks,

Alex

 

It's not just Adam and Eve's fault, humanity has deprived itself from many great things and we've been born to a chaotic world thanks to that. God never intended for us to live the life that we have and that's one of the consequences from free will, every decision comes with a price, good or bad. 

That is why we have Jesus as that mediator that can bring us back to the Father as it was meant to, because humanity cannot do it by itself.

Hope this answers your question or some of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, you are claiming that this wine was unfermented grape juice. Show me in scripture where the Bible says that the wine was not really wine.

 

Can you show that it is?

 

 

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on you. Wine is wine. But I'll help you out here anyway.

 

In the book of Acts Chapter 2 there is a clear reference to wine suggesting that they were mocked because it is thought that they were drunk. If wine contained no alcohol this would make no sense, so it is clear that wine is an alcoholic drink.

Ephesians 5 also refers to wine being capable of making somebody drunk. How can unfermented grape juice make anybody drunk? The only taboo against drinking wine is to not get drunk on it. Again, how can you get drunk on it, if it contains no alcohol?

 

No, it's not on me.

 

I did not say that that never did "wine" have alcohol. You did not read the article that I posted.

 

We just have to agree to disagree.  Like I said, I can easily see that many times God says being great includes not drinking anything that has alcohol. No one can read the Bible and disagree with that and have anything to back them up.

 

 

Disagree with what? Firstly, how did you know when wine had alcohol and when it didn't? You don't. You're just assuming that sometimes it had alcohol and sometimes it didn't. But you have no way of knowing when it did and when it didn't.

Then you say that 'no one can read the Bible and disagree with that and have anything to back them up', but in truth you have nothing to back up your assumption that wine sometimes didn't contain alcohol.

I'm sorry, but you're just assuming that alcohol is forbidden so you're redefining what the word wine means, as and when it suits you, to fit your hypothesis.

Wine contains alcohol. The Bible means that otherwise it wouldn't refer to getting drunk.

What makes you think you can change the definition of a word at certain times and then change it back at other times to suit your fancy?

The truth is you can't. The Bible was not written so that words can be played around with just to see your own particular beliefs.

As for God claiming that somebody was great who didn't drink alcohol, I can agree with you, but wine is NOT forbidden to drink.

 

Yes, you're right. The Bible doesn't say anything about anyone ever drinking anything. It never says anything about wine. It never says anything is right or wrong.

 

You're right, you win. We can't agree to disagree because you are SOOOO right.

 

 

The Bible sometimes gives instruction to particular people not to drink alcohol, which is understandable. It's not always appropriate to drink and some people are forbidden from drinking if God has a special role for them.

But wine is clearly not forbidden for all Christians because if it was Jesus would not give it to people and Paul would not allow Timothy to drink it now and again. And by wine, I mean alcoholic wine. Wine in the Bible is clearly an alcoholic drink otherwise we would not be warned against getting drunk on it.

Wine does not change its definition to mean alcoholic wine sometimes and grape juice at other times. If it did the Bible would either make that clear or give us other words for it.

Wine is always wine.

 

I agree 100% with everything you've stated

Wine is wine unless proven otherwise with evidence, there's nothing wrong with drinking as long as you know your limits - it's about self control, if you (not you specifically, just in general) can't handle it much then it's better not to. 

it's not sinful but it's not healthy since we're meant to do life with people

of course everyone needs their alone time every once in a while, but someone who purposefully doesn't want to interact with people it goes deeper than "feeling antisocial" - like someone posted above, sounds like there's hurt there to be dealt with

 

 

Do you know how terrible it is to tell someone he will go to a place of eternal torment? If that is your only reason for believing you don't really believe.

I agree with you, but it's been studied and found that hell isn't like people make it out to be. Of course it's a horrible place, but fire and burning? I don't believe that plus Jesus never points it out to be besides a term he uses where he was referring to a place there in the town comparing it to hell, about the awful it was and people wouldn't go near it, not that it was exactly like that literally. Hell is in a nutshell a place where God doesn't dwell, if life on earth is very hard and god is here, imagine being in a place where he isn't, now that is hell

 

I believe His word to be true from the the first word to the last word.  His Word is all truth.  He is God and He cannot  lie.

 

I never said that God lies, but there is no proof that Hell is eternal fire for all to those that didn't believe or denied God neither any reference in the Bible beside the lake of fire for satan and a reference that Jesus makes about the dump where they burned the carcasses from the tabernacle symbolizing the place that nobody wanted to be at

 

 

 

 

 

Can we follow Moses and Christ together? Why do we look into the Old Testament for direction!

 

What exactly do you mean by "Old Testament"?

 

Psalms? Proverbs?

Isaiah?

 

They are a part of the "Old Testament" as well.

 

Would you not use the lives of Abraham, Joseph, Ruth, David, Samuel, Hezekiah, etc. for sermons and teachings?

 

And how could you ever understand the reason Jesus had to die on the cross for our redemption without looking into the Old Testament?

 

 

That has nothing to do with following the OT though and living it

 

If scripture itself says that all scripture is good for teaching, admonition etc, how is it you are saying not to follow the 'OT'? Abraham lived by faith. He is in the OT. Christians are called 'spiritural' sons of Abraham. We are to live by faith, just like Abraham of the 'OT'.

 

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

 

To dismiss the OT, is to dismiss what is inspired and given by God. The Mosaic law is good, and holy, given by God to the children of Israel. It is perfect, not evil or bad. It was a gift given by God. There is no fault with the Mosaic law, or the OT. The issue wasn't the Mosaic law, it was fallen humans. The law is perfect, and a blessing. The curse was the failure of people. However, the OT is much more then the Mosaic law, and was given by God for teaching, and training.  

 

What you actually mean is we are not to follow the Mosaic law because we are not under the Mosaic covenant. But, it is incorrect to dismiss the entire 'OT'. That would be dismissing what God wrote, and says is good.    It is not an old and new. It is the bible, all one book and all for our benefit.  

 

 

They're there as a reference and to focus it on Jesus (I know it's a longer explanation but this is the tl:dr version). It is pointless to try to live by the law cuz we'll never achieve it, if we could, Jesus would had never come in the first place. As great as the OT is, and I love reading it, it helps me grow closer to God but I don't live by it, it is not my covenant

 

 

The entire OT pointsto Jesus, I agree. Including the law in more ways then just showing a need.

 

But, the Mosaic law is not the entire OT. Just about everything taught in the NT, is already contained in the OT. (The exceptions are the mysteries which are not clear in the OT)

 

Mysteries:

 

full inclusion of Gentiles. There are prophesies concerning the Messiah and the Gentiles in the OT, but it is not clear that Gentiles are full member of the covenant 

            

Jesus is God- there are indications in the OT which raise this possibility, but nothing which just plain states the Messiah would be God 

 

indwelling of the Holy Spirit- while the OT indicates that all would prophesy, which hints at this, the prophets of the OT did not have the permanently indwelling. 

 

I agree, which serve as great examples of how it was back then; and people try to live in the new covenant with the old testament and it doesn't work that way.

 

 

 

Can we follow Moses and Christ together? Why do we look into the Old Testament for direction!

 

What exactly do you mean by "Old Testament"?

 

Psalms? Proverbs?

Isaiah?

 

They are a part of the "Old Testament" as well.

 

Would you not use the lives of Abraham, Joseph, Ruth, David, Samuel, Hezekiah, etc. for sermons and teachings?

 

And how could you ever understand the reason Jesus had to die on the cross for our redemption without looking into the Old Testament?

 

 

That has nothing to do with following the OT though and living it

 

If scripture itself says that all scripture is good for teaching, admonition etc, how is it you are saying not to follow the 'OT'? Abraham lived by faith. He is in the OT. Christians are called 'spiritural' sons of Abraham. We are to live by faith, just like Abraham of the 'OT'.

 

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

 

To dismiss the OT, is to dismiss what is inspired and given by God. The Mosaic law is good, and holy, given by God to the children of Israel. It is perfect, not evil or bad. It was a gift given by God. There is no fault with the Mosaic law, or the OT. The issue wasn't the Mosaic law, it was fallen humans. The law is perfect, and a blessing. The curse was the failure of people. However, the OT is much more then the Mosaic law, and was given by God for teaching, and training.  

 

What you actually mean is we are not to follow the Mosaic law because we are not under the Mosaic covenant. But, it is incorrect to dismiss the entire 'OT'. That would be dismissing what God wrote, and says is good.    It is not an old and new. It is the bible, all one book and all for our benefit.  

 

They're there as a reference and to focus it on Jesus (I know it's a longer explanation but this is the tl:dr version). It is pointless to try to live by the law cuz we'll never achieve it, if we could, Jesus would had never come in the first place. As great as the OT is, and I love reading it, it helps me grow closer to God but I don't live by it, it is not my covenant

 

Can we follow Moses and Christ together? Why do we look into the Old Testament for direction!

 

What exactly do you mean by "Old Testament"?

 

Psalms? Proverbs?

Isaiah?

 

They are a part of the "Old Testament" as well.

 

Would you not use the lives of Abraham, Joseph, Ruth, David, Samuel, Hezekiah, etc. for sermons and teachings?

 

And how could you ever understand the reason Jesus had to die on the cross for our redemption without looking into the Old Testament?

 

That has nothing to do with following the OT though and living it

 

There are many churches to choose from, so it's a matter of visiting churches until you find one that blesses you. We do need each other for strength, fellowship, and encouragement. We also need to hear the teaching of God's Word.

 

Hebrews 10:24-25 KJV  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:  25  Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

 

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This is the scripture that gets routinely quoted to make those who don't go to church feel guilty. However if you examine the words, you will see that it is a good reason to avoid most churches.

 

Sitting in rows, is hardly an assembling of ourselves together. It is just sitting in a classroom waiting on the beloved leader for his awesome words.

 

How often do you ever witness any provoking one another to love and good works. Again most just listen to the leader whilst he orchestrates everything, trying to get us on board with his "exciting" program.

 

How often do we see anyone exhorting another pew filler? 

 

Scripture makes it plain that the ministry of an assembly should be done by all the members as they listen to what the Holy Spirit wants to bring. There is no biblical support for the institute of church as we see it today.

That's why I stopped going to church many years ago, and just meet with a small handful who listen to God and want to grow in the Holy Spirit.

 

Hebrews 10:24-25 (NLT)

"Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works. And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near."

Sitting in rows has no correlation to assembling together

as·sem·ble

If you've never been to a church where there's been encouragement, no gathering, then you must be going to the wrong places.

You were quoting the person saying that the verse is an excuse but your response seems like an excuse as well without an actual biblical foundation with context. It doesn't say "you HAVE to go to church" - but the Bible teaches us that we're not mean to do life alone and that there is power where there is gathering under God's name plus teaching His Word. 

Some people don't like to go to church cuz they don't wanna submit to what leaders (appointed by God) want to implement because it doesn't sit well with them, and that deals more with pride and issues with the heart rather than "this church is no good". Plus saying "meeting with a handful who listen to God" is kinda like saying "we actually hear from God, not from some dumb pastor" and that is taking away God's power through people and what he wants to say. We don't HAVE to do it, but it definitely helps the body as a whole as Jesus always encouraged to encourage each other and build each other. If we were meant to stay together and not have assemblies, the church would had never been created and Jesus would had never said that he'd build it.

Again, that is up to the individual, a small gathering as as much power as a big one, but God's Word and power always attacks people one way or the other, and it's better to do life with people who were appointed by God to do life with you than go through it alone, and build His house to welcome other people.

 

 

If Jesus doesn't even know, I'm not gonna know

At this point Jesus knows

 

 

Revelation (12 or 14?) depicts the Son of Man standing on a cloud holding a sickle and He is waiting from a word from the Father.  And the angel leaves the temple where the Father is and goes to tell the Son of Man that it is time and He digs the sickle into the earth and reaps the believers.  So I do not believe the Son knows, not until the Father gives the word that it's time.

 

exactly

 

If Jesus doesn't even know, I'm not gonna know

Just curious, do you think Jesus doesn't know this now?

 

of course he doesn't, he never said "i don't know this now, but i will later on"

 

 

If Jesus doesn't even know, I'm not gonna know

Just curious, do you think Jesus doesn't know this now?

 

Jesus definately knows now.After all He is going to be the one who will call to us.

 

where is your biblical evidence on that?

 

I knew when I saw the title of this thread that something like this was going to happen. I thought to myself 'oh-ohh, I wonder how long we'll have to wait before a post-tribber comes along and starts another rapture war'.

 

pre!                     no, post!

 

 

All I can say is that if you're gonna start a thread called "Who believes the rapture will happen this year" then you're kind of asking for it!  

If everyone just respected each others end time views that would not happen.Everyone has to right to interpret the end times as they wish.No one should ever belittle another on a Christian website regarding their view.

 

So should we interpret the Bible as we see fit regardless of the evidence, history, and culture when it was written?? Just asking a general question, not just the end times. I got my personal view on it based on the studies I've been a part of and theories.

 

If Jesus doesn't even know, I'm not gonna know

At this point Jesus knows

 

Where does it say in the Bible that he knows??

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is." Mark 13:32-33

 

my counselor says in order to heal from this and my ED, that means i should have godly repentance, not worldly

 

maybe i am a horrible person for saying this but is it possible to have both? am i supposed to not have pain over hurting myself too?

 

am i just......bad?

Are you talking about self harming? you need to go to a worldly doctor who has worldly medication to help you cope with this unregettable but worldly illness.

 

You cant repent away faulty genes.

 

That is true, but that's more of a mental issue than biological - though I do agree to go to a secular psychologist, but more important to see a pastor for the spiritual side of things

If Jesus doesn't even know, I'm not gonna know

I beg to differ with you.What about all the women in the bible? Estersundayhver men. Anna was a prophet,Lydia led a group of women in prayer by the river but went on to work side by side with Paul to help build (witness and speak) the phillipian church. Priscilla aslo worked along side of Paul and her husband.

Jesus loves women and was even ministered to and supported by women. The first missionary ever sent was Mary at the tomb ofJesus appeared to her and told her to go tell the others. Iam praying for anyone out there who believes women have no place in ministry. If it Were not for women tere would be no church. Just look around every sunday.

Just because Paul ccorrected some women who were talking in the church over some men. (They had come together for the first time women and men worshiping together) is taken greatly out of context and while we all need correction at times it does not make us any less than a child of God. God loves us all men and women.

What about areas in which men can't mi ister

I agree with this

Yes we have a leading role as a collective, but women are called to lead alongside them in their own areas - I believe that at the end the man makes the final decision (of course after prayer and all of that) but before that, the woman is there for guidance as well. It's still 1 team

you gotta look at the context of the letter

- who was the author addressing to?

- what was happening in the church?

- what was happening in the city?

- why did the author say that specifically?

Did anybody ever buy anything at Costco? My daughter bought a membership card and I went with her to see what the store is all about!

I have to see that a lot of stuff is much cheaper then the stores and over a year you can save lots of money by buying things you need,you do need the know the price you pay in the store before you can call it a good deal,looking at store flyers can save you lots of money too ,use the coupons and you become a smart shopper,just buy the things you need and sometimes what you want:)

How do you usually shop?

 

These are the freaks I wanted to warn everyone about. Why do I think they are freaks? Because they want you to get a membership to shop at their store. And guess what? They are the ONLY guys doing this. We are used to shopping at Wal Mart and Target, so we are used to having our freedom, and I could tell you I was offended when the lady at the door told me I needed a membership to get into the store, I told her outright I thought she was intolerant.

 

This seemed more restricting to me than other stores, who give you more freedom to shop, so I interpreted the restrictions as intolerance.

 

Why would I shop at a store that charges membership and so much money when I can get cheaper at Dollar Tree or I can shop with all my freedoms at my local mall?

 

Seriously, we have been making fun of this.

What's the big deal? the store is clearly not meant for everyone. Yes it's a marketing technique, but hits a way to keep control on who goes in to their store and who doesn't. Like you've posted, you have the choice to either be a member and purchase, or go somewhere else.

Don't some churches require for you to be a member before you can do anything? What's the difference? When in those churches you're actually donating your own time for it and still they ask you to due some courses first

 I work overnight, so I sleep when most everyone else is in the heart of there day.

Well technically when you go to sleep, it's night on the other side of the world

MSG version

"Isaiah’s question, “Is there anyone around who knows God’s Spirit, anyone who knows what he is doing?” has been answered: Christ knows, and we have Christ’s Spirit."

Favorite was math and english. Hated history, mostly cuz I had bad teachers