kawahine

Good day, you are shifting the onus to prove something on me, I think, while you've made a positive statement, I did not. However, you only presented some flakes of thought, in my opinion, and not scripture to prove your point. Let me ask you the same question I asked before: Logic is a good thing, we need it do evaluate signs on earth, but do you really think that what goes on in heaven can be exposed just by the use of some smart (or perhaps not so smart) equations? Thomas Flakes of thought, you say? There's a rather large flake here to be sure. But none of it involves anything I've brought to the table. Prove something on you personally? I think not, for you are utterly convinced of the inerrancy of your own subjective opinion. Your argument claims the status of a mini-papal encyclical and in that do you err. Your argument isn't a request for logic nor even a bow to it from others. Many prefer honesty to the sham of pretended argumentative superiority. Your only position is negative - disprove and condemn those statements made by others with nothing more to back up your statements than mockery. Judge not that ye be not judged. It's time to eat of the dish you've prepared for others. "A fool hath no delight in understanding, But only that his heart may reveal itself." Pro 18:2 * * * How is it that in all things men do, logic is an imperative? The sharpest tool we have for discerning our world and that which we have yet to understand is the processes of our own deduction. We use logic to formulate language, mathematics, science and that which lies beyond the reach of our eyes, ears, and hands. By the use of it we have ascended to the stars and by the abandonment of it we have murdered millions of our own kind. Illumination is said to be found in the search, not of our own thoughts, but of the world revealed to us. We make use of the data we discover by the use of logic. That includes, but is not restricted to the spiritual realm. In fact, it was logic that was first used to deduce the nature of the atom, mathematical theorems and architectural wonders that have formed the foundation of our civilization. None of those things can be seen with the eye, heard with the ear or held in the hand. Abandon logic and you fall like lightning into the sewage that lies at the bottom of your imagination. "Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power; religion gives man wisdom which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals. They are complementary. Science keeps religion from sinking into the valley of crippling irrationalism and paralyzing obscurantism." - Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. With regard to the matters discussed in this thread about fallen spiritual entities, the Bible is very clear. In fact, Holy Writ is very clear on all of creation as well as the redemption of that which was lost in the beginning. "Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own conceit." Pro 26:5 There is a God in heaven who has revealed Himself to the sons of men. There is a way that seems right to men, but which leads to destruction. Modern society calls it subjective opinion. The Bible calls it foolishness. I call it rubbish. It leads to everlasting damnation and it is tempted by the greatest spiritual predator in heaven or on earth. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding." - Prov. 3:5 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord; - Act 3:19 If you deny logic in others, then you have given license for others to deny the logic which you yourself hold most dear. No man is an island unto himself. We all depend upon that which God graciously gives to us for understanding, faith and redemption from our own 'subjective' traps of opinion. Leave your flakes in your breakfast bowl and come to the Lord, for He is willing to reason with us all. and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft... THANK YOU rjp!

This is a WONderful topic and goes deeper than most people are willing to take it, HOWEVER, understanding the full mystery and plan of GOD is MOST comforting and liberating! Morning Glory - the scriptures you gave were exactly the "numbers" Thomas was asking for - just not wanting to "hear" obviously, also very telling that he interprets the scriptures you quoted close to being "insulting." GOD IS SOVEREIGN. That says it ALL! If understanding the eternal plan of GOD (and can think outside our understanding of time, age-lasting, forever, boxes, which is a WONderful/insightful study itself), understanding WHY GOD created evil will take us into a deeper and scripturally sound understanding on why He created man, His ultimate purpose for him, and how we spend eternity and what that will look like. "For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL things. For ALL things originate with Him and come from Him; ALL things live through Him, and ALL things center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him. To Him be glory forever!" ("to EVERYthing there is a season and a purpose..." and "EVERY man in his own time..."). After knowing in our knower that GOD is Sovereign (otherwise, we will always question whether whatever happens is of Him or not), and taking such HUGE emphasis off the possible overriding power of satan (I've been convicted of using a capitol S as many also use a capitol G - not wanting to give him the same "place" of importance as most spell God - it's a personal thing, and yes i know that the Bible spells it that way - anyway) here are a few scriptures i've found to support that GOD created evil (for His ultimate purpose, don't forget); The word "evil" in Hebrew is "ra" which is used throughout the O.T. to denote wickedness, sin and wrongdoing in over 500 passages. Gen. 6:5 "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination and intention of all human thinking was only evil continually." Gen. 3:1 "Now the serpent was more subtle and crafty than any living creature of the field which the Lord GOD had made. He (satan) said to the woman..." Is. 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil. I am the LORD Who do these things." Is. 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith who blows on the fire of coals and who produces a weapon FOR ITS PURPOSE, and I have created the devastator to destroy." (:17 is great news) Rev. 12:8-9 "But they were defeated and there was no room found for them in heaven any longer. And the huge dragon was cast down and out, that AGES-old serpent, who is called the devil and satan, he who is the seducer (deceiver) of all humanity the world over; he was forced out and down to the earth and his angels were flung along with him. Rev. 20:2 "...the angel descending from heaven gripped and overpowered the dragon, that old serpent of primeval times, who is the devil and satan, and bound him for a thousand years...until the thousand years were at an end, after that he must be liberated for a short time." Rom. 9:22 "What if GOD, although fully intending to show (the awfulness of) His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels of His anger which are ripe for destruction?" Job 2:10 "...what? shall we accept (only) good at the hand of GOD and shall we not accept (also) misfortune and what is of a bad nature?" Ex. 4:11 "And the Lord said to him, Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing or the blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" Prov. 16:4 "The Lord has made everything to its own end and HIS OWN PURPOSE: even the wicked (are fitted for their role, such as Pharoah, Saul. Judas Iscariot...) for the day of calamity and evil..." Deut. 2:30 "...for the Lord your GOD hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate that He might give him into your hand as at this day." Jn. 9:2-3 "Jesus answered, It was not that this man or his parents sinned; but he was born blind in order that THE WORKINGS OF GOD SHOULD BE MANIFESTED in him. 1 Cor 5:5 "You are to deliver this man over to satan for physical discipline - to destroy carnal lusts - that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (just one more part of His overall PLAN). One of the mysteries of GOD's great purpose being executed throughout the ages (a huge study in itself), is why He chose to work a divine interplay of good and evil, the negative and positive, the emptiness and fulness, the bondage and then the liberation. We may not, at present time, comprehend all the ramifications of why it is essential that He would use, and interplay evil with the good, in our development unto spiritual maturity. But it brings a new rest within just to know that ALL THINGS are out of GOD, and that HE is in perfect control of all the present process, "working ALL things after the counsel of His own will." Eph. 1:11 "For the creation was subjected to frailty - to futility, condemned to frustration - not because of some intentional fault on its part, BUT BY THE WILL OF HIM WHO SO SUBJECTED IT. Yet with the hope that nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption and gain an entrance into the glorious freedom of GOD's children" Rom. 8:20-21

by having been given an "opportunity" to die to your self-righteousness, self-vindication and self-wisdom (so that you can find your all in Him). besides, humility before GOD means nothing if not proved before men.