Faithful

Yall are crackin me hard... I do think that not all women are crock pots....some are microwaves....I won't say which one I am....I will say that I can't personally kiss a guy that I like and it not turn into the 4th of July fireworks show. If kissing doesn't appeal to you, I venture to say, you just hadn't had a great kissing experience and I would think that would be due in part to what makes a quality kiss....in my past life, lots of guys just don't kiss well and looks don't have nothing to do with it...the quality of a kiss has something to do with how well you like them but also timing and also whether they have a knack I guess...I prefer to keep my tongue is what I'm saying...lol....

First of all, shout out to Paul....Paul was probably my favorite person in the Bible next to God of course and anyone that chooses that name I like to assume must think like me... I truly thank God for those who have put in the time to study the ancient languages except when they only appear to use them in making an impressive pretty little sermon that is over people's heads...I'm glad you use your knowledge in an attempt to help people actually come to faith... Just wanted to say something here, and I don't claim to know much, but as your average Joe Christian, it to me is easier to accept that if God knows the end from the beginning He must work off of that. It's quite easy for me to accept that I'm not God. I think once you decide through your journey of experience that has to do with your view of probability of the God of the Bible actually being God, you are inclined to then ask the questions being asked here which are good questions, reasonable truth seeking questions, that deal with who does God claim to be in the Bible itself and is there contradictions. I believe we all start out as Abraham did, attributing the voice we hear of conviction within ourselves to God and from their we get to know Him but don't trust Him like we will down the road. I don't think this means you completely abandon logic but you continue to have questions. I think God designed us to ask questions or He wouldn't have given us the ability to reason. It is when reason is held in higher esteem than God's reasoning that it becomes a problem. As far as this thread is concerned, I would have to say that we are talking it seems about what is fair and just. But if we are willing to say that we believe all this happened and the scripture is true concerning these things that we question, we must also question the sacrifice of Christ. Was it fair what happened to Him? Was it just?....I think when that is added to the equation, the heart of God, the motive of God, the morality of God in other scenarios the Bible gives, must also be viewed in light of what Christ did. Still, I have questions that don't pertain to this thread. Yet, I have had other questions throughout the years that eventually I believe have been answered for me in that the answers appear congruent with the whole. Like for instance, why did God allow Satan in the garden to start with. Why did God allow Cain to kill Adam (edit: Abel not Adam). Then there are others that I still feel totally lost on which concerns polygamy in the OT being outlawed in the NT and if incest is wrong in the NT then why was Abraham allowed to marry his half sister, etc. I hope someone on here with your education Brother Paul will at some point attempt to answer these. I believe those with higher learning can indeed answer many questions as long as God has not left a blank. If it is in God's Word, it can be found. Thanks for posing the hard questions Thomas and thanks for answering them to the best of your knowledge Brother Paul. We are told in scripture if we continue in His Word we will know the truth. I've had enough what I call "Job" experiences to know that God may not answer me, but if I believe in Christ's sacrifice and resurrection then no question is too hard.

I'm not scientifically or apologetically or theologically inclined, but just as a human...lol...I like the story of Abraham because it demonstrates to me that Abraham didn't really know God that well in the beginning. He just decided that the probability was high enough he should take the risk and follow the voice he heard. He certainly showed his lack of faith in the beginning of his journey when he lied about his wife being his sister but in the end he was willing to sacrifice his long awaited son though God stopped him. Since Abraham is considered the Father of our Faith, I find this very encouraging. I think it really does boil down to probability that people decide at some point that what they know even if they aren't sure 100%, has finally tipped the scale from less doubt to more belief that they decide to give it a shot. Another point on a personal note, I think one thing that convinces me is that if I were to say okay what kind of God would be the ideal God, the God of the Bible fits. You want a God who is just but you want a God who is merciful and loving but doesn't just dismiss wrong doing but makes a way to reconcile in a way that doesn't impede justice. If that makes any sense the way I am saying it here. After reading the Bible for a couple of years now, it becomes clearer and clearer to me that I made the right choice. I love the analogy of how they send rockets off into space. They say if their calculations are off to any minute degree, then the rocket is way off it's target in space. I tend to think the same applies to God and His ways. If our God is not perfect which denotes exact, then I don't see how He can be God. The more I read God's word the more I see how perfect His way of thinking is. I believe God knows just how destructive sin is. If you take a real unbiased look at what God's calls sin you see how sin is destructive and the problems it causes. All sin is in essence a failure to love but also to realize that we are in no position to rule our lives as we are no where near perfect and able to do so. What the Bible calls sin and how the Bible speaks of what love is, to me is the deciding factor between religions. Having children really helped me relate to the God of the Bible and I believe God set it up that way so we could relate to Him. Also the unselfishness of Christ when you think about it. He could have said, hey, your sinning just makes me look better but instead He was willing to die for us and believed in the love the Father had for Him but also the story of Jesus shows that the Father loved us enough to send Christ....I think we all know in the core of our being that truth is totally tied to selflessness and loving others....however, you will hear a lot more about loving your neighbor than God.... Just some of my thoughts I thought I'd share.... I've watch a show some time ago where Barbara Walters interviewed some of the leaders of the major religions of the world and I tell ya, I am not envious in the least to come back as a cow or insect or to know that to some Hitler is going to heaven as all people go to heaven regardless. I realize it is not what we wish is true but truth is truth independent of us.

I have noticed in Pentecostal churches, people making animal sounds, rolling on the floor and jumping up and down-- a kind of a free for all! After a little while, the pastor raises his hand (may be to indicate enough is enough) all become quiet and normal. When I narrated this to a Pentecostal believer, she told me that all the spirits of those people are under control of the spirit of the pastor, meaning no involvement of the Holy Spirit in the chaos! Okay....so I'm so clueless on this "thang". I do not know how to post correctly but I'll keep trying....I have been told by my pastor that barking is not of the Holy Spirit as it is demeaning and doesn't glorify God. I have to agree on that particular manifestation. I wonder if it is people in the flesh that are genuinely touched and just let loose in the flesh but I don't personally believe it is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Others I believe, like rolling in the floor and jumping up and down may or may not be. John Wesley wrote that he prayed for revival without defects but if we can't have revival without defects to send revival anyway. I don't believe what is meant here is God sends defects rather that people who are fallible are going to get out of order which will discredit what is real. David danced till his clothes came off yet he wasn't completely naked. I understand the word rejoice means to spin around in original language. I guess my point is, I believe we should be more enthusiastic about God and show it and nothing else we celebrate should come close like cheering at a football game. I do believe in order. I think it is up to the pastor to judge things but I do think we have to be careful not to go along with "whatever". I would draw the line with the barking thing. If some is barking, I believe they need deliverance. Of course, others may say that rolling in the floor is demeaning and might would draw the line there.

The Bible itself says he comes to 1. steal 2. kill 3. destroy. I believe this is talking about Christians also. If it wasn't possible for him to I don't think we would have been warned. He is seeking those he is able to devour. I think all the comments are more pieces to the puzzle. Remember the temptation of Christ in Matthew 4 and how Christ resisted was by the Word of God. One of the other gospels says that Satan waited for a more opportune time after he had finished tempting Him. It was when Jesus was at the end of His 40 day fast when He was hungry and weak that Satan came. Satan don't fight fair. Also it says Satan physically placed Jesus on the temple mount. I believe James is again key as it was presented by Firestorm above. When we walk in disobedience we are not walking in God's authority as we have become a rebel to His authority. I think the armor also and the instructions that go with Ephesians 6 are vital which includes watching and praying. We are warned to be sober and vigilant. Love is a powerful defense. Remember the breastplate is not of faith only but love. The scripture says "when we fast". I believe fasting is something that we should do on a regular basis. Jesus said He has been given all authority but the nature of a thief and murderer is not that they have authority to steal, kill, and destroy but that they do so regardless. If we don't stand against him and fight in the power of the Holy Spirit, we can be stole from, killed, and destroyed.

My pastor who is well versed in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, and Latin having degrees in all and studying for 30+ years says that what is meant here is what is called passive receptability....meaning, you can give in or not to the moving of the Spirit, in the sense that you can hold your peace until it is your turn to speak so that there can be order....I think this is true myself in the interpretation that he gives as I have been in meetings where people would really just go spiritually bonkers and thought since they were in the Spirit anything goes...that goes back to their understanding....I don't mean quench the Spirit....I'm sure if you have been in Pentecostal circles long enough you have seen something similar that produces chaos....then those same people will tend to think when corrected that they were told to quench the Spirit and that church is wrong....and on and on....then you got strife and the whole nine yards...I am not out to start a theological debate as I'm not a theologian per se but in my experience, when I have been "drunk in the Spirit", it is a pretty mind blowing deal...I've been drunk in my younger days in the natural and you do somewhat feel a bit loose and your inhibitions are not the same but being drunk in the Spirit is not the same as other ways the Spirit moves....but I mention this because I have heard of instances where people went bonkers with this....they know the Spirit is working on them and they give in to the "flesh" I believe in many situations genuinely believing they are giving into the Spirit and do bizzare things...if people understood this verse I think it would help the church immensely.....good topic....

Thanks OneWithGod.....I enjoy discussing the Bible and Christian issues.....glad I found this site....

Jesus said, if we continue in His Word we are truly His disciples and will know the truth and the truth will set us free and He said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life ....sounds like a process to me but thanks be to God that Jesus Himself is the truth and that means truth is relational.

Love it FresnoJoe.....sounds like something John Wesley would say.....I've been reading some of what Wesley wrote which I believe to be totally true and I appreciate how he simply broke things down.....Jesus kept it simple too....ahhh which reminds me of something I meant to say in my last post I commented on that as Jesus said, if we continue His Word we will know the truth and the truth will set us free....sounds like a process to me but thanks be to God that Jesus Himself is the truth and that truth is relational as you seem to believe as well from the things you say....great post....I don't have a theology degree to critique it but I believe Jesus would approve....

Meditating on this one some more.....I also recall Paul giving instructions that they were to toss out those who could not be corrected from heresy after the first or second admonition....which leads us I guess back to square one....what is heresy?....but really more than that, why is heresy?.....heresy can only exist from someone who has been deceived....we know we can be deceived according to James chapter two by not obeying the truth we have....when you look in the Word, the mirror that holds Christ reflection and you refuse to change....that is disobedience and what is disobedience but sin ....and what does sin do?....it hardens the heart according to scripture....so we are back to the heart.....do we judge people by the heart?.....do we judge at all?.....that is another can of worms but Paul said in one letter of his to remove that "wicked" person from among you....another case Paul instructed the church to turn a person over for the destruction of the flesh....again, we see the motive is restoration....I think simply put the problem is again...there is no longer "one" church physically as there was back in the early church and I say that based on my knowledge which I haven't studied church history well enough I confess....I think it is vital to study the first 300 years of the church....but at the same time, the parable of the vine I keep coming back to is essentially I believe telling us that the vinedresser is God the Father and He will tend His vine....I think when it comes to knowing the truth and helping others to see the truth that the scripture plainly says the Spirit of Truth would lead us into ALL truth but how does He do that?....individually and corporately....Paul said as many as led by the Spirit of God these are the sons of God....I just added to an old post on here about the Urim and Thummim and how I feel like I need an 8 ball I can shake because I honestly don't know that I hear too good. So continuing to go in circles I would say it boils down to hearing God and knowing you have heard from God and this is by the Spirit whether individually or corporately....the Word of God itself without the Spirit isn't going to clear things up...we need illumination....that only comes from God....but God resists the proud and that goes back to disobedience....why would He bother to instruct those who aren't going to obey anyway.....I do believe the scripture makes it pretty plain the do's and the do not's so that and praying and obeying and trusting is my target....I'm glad God knows that I am a dumb sheep and knows without Him I don't have a clue is my final thought for the time being.....

Okay....I'm really going...lol....one more thing I 'd like to add that I think is foundational to this topic is Ephesians 3:14-19 and in particular verse 16 that speaks of being strengthened in the inner man by the Spirit, verse 17 that speaks of Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith being rooted and grounded in love (again, thinking of the parable of the vine and the sower), and verse 19 that speaks of the love of Christ that passes knowledge that we might be filled with what?....with ALL the fullness of God. Think on that for a minute. If you are full of God, what are you going to produce? division....nope....then chapter 4 of Ephesians talks about the perfecting of the saints....Paul says in another verse "til Christ be formed in you".....Romans 12:2 talks about being transformed by renewing our mind....but mind and heart to me are inseparable in scripture.....my point is that transformation is a process....maturation is a process and the body is in that process individually so then it must be also corporately as well.....vs. 13 where I left off says till we ALL come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ....that we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every "wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, where by they lie in wait to deceive....but speaking the truth how? in love may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compancted by which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.......oh snap....how many times is the word love mentioned here in connection with maturity?.....further down we are told to put of the old man and put on the new that our understanding when dark we will be alienated from the life of God by the blindness of our what? our heart.....there is another verse I'd have to look it up that connects love with being holy and blameless.....you get my point.....as I believe....the whole topic has to do with maturing in love.....THE END...

Wow...I wish I had time to read more closely things that were said here. I think this is an excellent topic you have chosen. I too don't get how there is so much division but some of the answers given make sense and some my own pastor gives. I need to get going but just wanted to say and maybe it has already been said, but just wanted to say that my perception is that in scripture we are told to be increasing in our love for one another and that really doesn't appear to be the case. I think the persecution answer is very much on target. I also think they are tares mixed in with the wheat and God doesn't want the wheat destroyed so they are allowed to remain for the time being but when the tares mature their fruit makes them evident. Fruit in my observation of scripture is really the litmus test. All the signs and wonders and miracles Jesus said some that did these he will call workers of iniquity and to depart from Him as He never knew them. What does good fruit look like?.....fruit is simple not complicated.....as the scripture says we can understand all mysteries etc. etc. ....give our body to be burned....have all faith as to move mountains...give everything we have away but if we don't have love it doesn't profit.....love prefers others...love takes into account the conscience of another person....that is another example of disunity of mind really that Paul said would exist but told us how to deal with it....I understand not everything is simple as not eating meat offered to idols but I do believe there is some foundational principle in the teaching...you would think that giving all you had to the poor and giving your body to be burned would be positive proof of love but the scripture doesn't attest to it being so.....I personally can relate and I think we all can to people doing something for you for the wrong motive that became evident later with their attitude...I think Jesus always was taking the complicated tangled theological messes and simplifying them with....He said that on the first two commandments hung all the law and the prophets and said that we are to love God and our neighbor.....Paul said the same then quoted some of the ten commandments that really are just more practical insight into the second commandment and then added and if there be any other way you can hurt your neighbor don't do it....I believe that is in Romans.....these are just my thoughts....I'm way behind the 8 ball in debating as I observe most of you have years of study behind you by the wealth of information you contribute which I think is wonderful that you all study as we are told to in scripture....the main point I would like to make that we have a "heart" religion as John Wesley spoke of and not just a mind religion....in fact, I think being of one mind has more to do with Spirit led truth than us using our carnal mind.....I truly believe God uses our thinking process but I don't believe you can figure out God or His Word that it is a matter of study and God revealing the truth to you along the way....we are told to have the mind of Christ but really I think that has more to do with a change of heart that produces right thinking, speaking, and acting as scripture makes it clear in Matthew from the abundance of the heart and murders,ect. (behavior) comes from the heart and as James 3 says that if a man can control his tongue he can control his whole body....yet we are also asked the rhetorical question who can tame the tongue as it is a deadly poison....I think it is interesting the scriptures about the tongue and that we pray in "tongues" by the Holy Spirit...."as a man thinks in his heart (mind) so is he" as it says in Proverbs....I don't have time to develop my thought here...but I do believe the Parable of the Sower and the Vine are really what it is all about.....it has always been about the heart....unfortunately, most of my life the focus I have heard preached has been on "sin" that has nothing to do with being defined as a failure to love but that is not what Jesus said.....well, sorry, I got carried away and instead of editing started writing again....wooops......

KnowingtheTruth, I never said in my post who it was that baptized me in the Holy Ghost. Yes, I agree it is Jesus who did so according to scripture. Nice to meet you too by the way.

I am new and saw this topic.....I haven't the time right this minute to read all of the entries as it is past my bedtime tonight....but speaking personally, my life changed dramatically when I was baptized into the Holy Spirit....It took me many years to receive though....

New to this site and was looking over this one. It is a very interesting topic for sure. I will just add and maybe it has already been stated but scripture even says that He is not willing that any should perish. Yet, at the same time Paul said that God hardens who He will. That may sound contradictory but we have all sinned and the wages of sin is death according to other scripture Paul writes. So on that note, God is not hardening the innocent which is one point. At the same time, I agree that God knows the end from the beginning and looks and acts based on that perspective and though He is not willing that someone perishes, He is willing to harden someone that leads to them perishing based on His future knowledge. The bottom line is the book of Job. After God's 100 something questions to Job, all Job could say was that basically he didn't know anything and was undone. Look at the example of Pharaoh or the statement God made about Esau. God said He hated Esau but loved Jacob before they were even born. When I was younger, that was very hard for me to comprehend but I do believe that God is Holy and just and the fact that God the Father sent God the Son instead of excusing sin, is pretty heavy duty proof to me that God is just. In fact, I think it would actually be spitting in God's face to feel sorry for anybody who goes to hell. I don't believe the God of the Bible wants anyone to reject Him but He knows those that will ahead of time and apart from Him what are we? I don't believe we even conceive of how wicked we really would be without Him. I think because God is loving He doesn't allow those who reject Him to go unpunished and to be able to continue in the universe. Look at the wicked things people do that make history and the news just on this Earth. Imagine what it would be like if there was no restraint. God is the only restraint. God is love itself as the scripture says so imagine a person who has no love in them. I believe God isn't restricted to someone preaching to a person either. I believe if you can look up in a jungle somewhere and want to know God, He will find a way to reveal Himself. There are many stories of Muslims coming to Christ because of Jesus appearing to them or coming to them in dreams. I still believe He intends for us to go into all the world though because He has commanded us to. I also believe that we are not all God's children just because God made us but I do believe we are His creation though according to scripture.