Butch5

It was at conception. You see people come to the text already having an idea of what soul means and they use this idea to interpret the Bible. However, the real question is, how does the Bible use the term? If we study the terms through the whole Bible we find the definition I gave in the first post

Sleep is a metaphor for death. Those in Daniel 12 are dead. If we would expect anyone to have an immortal soul, it would be Jesus, correct? Isaiah 53:12 (KJV 1900): Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, And he shall divide the spoil with the strong; Because he hath poured out his soul unto death: And he was numbered with the transgressors; And he bare the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah prophesied that Christ would pour out His soul to death. If Jesus' soul could die then so can everyone else's. We're also told that the Father alone has immortality. 1 Timothy 6:13–16 (KJV 1900): I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. Paul told Timothy that when Jesus returns He will show the only one who has immortality, the one no man can see nor has seen. That's the Father. No one else has immortality.

That's not accurate. A soul, according to Scripture is a living being. A soul can si. And a soul can die. The Spirit that is in man is not man, it is something of God Himself. It is the breath or spirit of life.

No, there aren't any verses. The idea that there is one God in three persons is a doctrine from the Fifth century. It's not what the Bible teaches. Paul stated plainly to the Corinthians, 'to us there is one God, the Father'. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Cor. 8:5-6 NAS)

The Bible is clear that the dead are dead. They are in the grave. The problem is that Greek philosophical ideas have entered into the faith and many Christians have accepted these ideas. It was the Greeks, in Jesus day, that taught that man was an immortal spirit and/or soul that lived forever and would ascend into the heavens after leaving the body. This idea is foreign to the Scriptures. So, to answer your question about Daniel 12:2, yes they are dead. They will rise at the resurrection.

I would have to disagree John. Gen 2:7 shows us that the combination of the body and breath "became" a living soul. The soul is not a third element, it's a combination of the two elements. I also have to disagree with the idea of eternal torment of men. That's not taught in Scripture. The "spirit" in man is something out of God Himself, that's why Jesus doesn't mention it in Matthew 10:28. God's spirit or breath is what gives man life. God isn't going to destroy His own spirit or breath. Also, there is no place in the Scriptures called hell. That is an English word that carries a lot of baggage. The Scriptures speak of Sheol or Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus.

I agree!

I agree with your statement wholeheartedly, However, I disagree with Strong's definition of Psuche. It doesn't mean spirit.

I would disagree that the Bible treats man as tripartite. I submit it treats him as a physical being as stated in the OP. It's man's dualistic ideas that interpret the Bible as having man being tripartite.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable about the destruction of the priesthood. Jesus is telling the Pharisees that the priesthood is going away. It's not about what happens to people when they die. When a man dies he is dead. He remains dead until the Resurrection and then he will be judged.

You said we have to rightly divide Paul. This passage in Ephesians is speaking of the Jews, not Christians. It was the Jews who were chosen. Also as I pointed out it's not heavenly places. The word places isn't in the Greek text. It's heavenlies, It's the word heaven in the plural and it's adjective in the neuter gender. That means it's talking about heavenly things. This passage is not saying anyone is in Heaven or going to Heaven. Jesus told the Jews and His apostles that were He was going they could not go.

Heavenly is an adjective. It's simply a description of the Kingdom, not its location. You're taking an adjective and using it as a location to say the Kingdom is in Heaven. That's not correct. That would be like saying the red book is located in red as if red was a location. Red is an adjective like Heavenly. They are descriptive of the nouns they're modifying. Also, you said we need to rightly divide Paul. Ephesians 1:6 is speaking of Isarael, not Christians. It's also not speaking of Heavenly places, it's Heavenly things. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches Christians go to Heaven. It's just not there. Who is going to be in this kingdom in Heaven? Revelation says that the holy city descends and God will reign with men. So God will be on the Earth.

Nowhere does Paul say anyone's going to Heaven either? I've already shown where Paul said that the Gentiles would inherit the land promised to Abraham. That land is on Earth, not Heaven

What do you see here that would lead you to believe there are two kingdoms

That doesn't explain your two kingdoms.

And I did rightly divide Paul's words. Romans opens to the church at Rome. At 2:17 Paul turns his attention to the Jewish believers. He carries on this discourse through to 11:13 where he then turns to the Gentiles. He tells the Gentiles that they have been grafted into the promises made to the Jews. As I said, The promise was made to Abraham and his seed. Paul tells us that Seed is Christ. He then says that the inheritance of the land comes to the Gentiles through Christ and that those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. That's the Land. The Gentiles, like the Jews, will see a kingdom on earth. There is nowhere in Scripture where Paul teaches that people go to Heaven, it's just not there.

You keep talking of two kingdoms yet you've given no evidence. I just laid out for you how Paul teaches that the promises made to Abraham are conferred on the Gentiles through faith in Christ. Paul, the one claim is preaching a a different kingdom than the 12, has laid out how that in Christ all are one. There is no Jew or Gentile. You have a kingdom for some Jews and another for Gentiles. Yet Paul says there is neither Jew nor Gentiles.

Paul also told the converts at Rome that they too had been grafted into Israel. The Gospel of the Kingdom and the Heavenly Gospel are one and the same. Contrary to popular belief, the Bible doesn't teach that people go to Heaven. That idea comes from Geek Philosophy. Paul, like Peter taught of a kingdom that would be here on earth. It's the same Gospel. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.1 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (Rom. 8:19-24 KJV) Here Paul writes of the creation being restored and delivered to the children of God. Paul is writing to Christians. They are the ones who will inherit the earth. Paul also said, The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Rom. 8:16-17 KJV) Paul said that believers are joint heirs with Christ. What then is Christ's inheritance that Christians are joint heir of? 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.1 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.1 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. (Ps. 2:6-12 KJV) So Christ's inheritance is the heathen and the uttermost parts of the earth. Christ will inherit the land. Christians are joint heir with Christ in this. God made promise to Abraham that him and his Seed would inherit all the land that Abraham could see. 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. (Gen. 13:14-15 KJV) The land was promised to Abraham and his seed. The same promise was made to Isaac and Jacob 10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. 11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; 12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land. (Gen. 35:10-12 KJV) When Issac was blessing Jacob he said to him. Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. 3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;1 4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.1 (Gen. 28:2-4 KJV) Here Moses recorded Isaac blessing Jacob and saying, God give Jacob the "blessing of Abraham" that you may "inherit" the land God promised to Abraham. This phrase, the "blessing of Abraham" is to inherit the land and it only appears twice in Scripture. Here in Genesis, and in Galatians where Paul applies it to the Gentiles. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal. 3:11-14 KJV) Here Paul says that Christ's redemption was so that the "blessing of Abraham" might come on the Gentiles. Remember, the "blessing of Abraham" is to inherit that land that God promised to Abraham and his seed. Paul goes further and tells us just who that seed is. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV) Paul leaves no doubt who the Seed is. It is Christ. So, when God promised the land to Abraham and his Seed, He meant Christ. Christ is the one who inherits the land. But Paul leaves us no doubt about Christians. He says, 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:26-29 KJV)] Here Paul says that those of faith in Christ are the children of God. He then says if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Heirs of what? What promise? The promise of the land to Abraham. Believers are joint heirs with Christ of the land that was promised to Abraham and his seed. We know that land is here on this earth because that is where Abraham was and saw it. We also know that it was expanded. In Hebrews Paul tells us that God mad Christ the heir of all things. 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Heb. 1:2 KJV) This earth is the where the kingdom will be. This earth is where all believers will have eternal life. There is no going to Heaven, it's just not taught in the Scriptures. It's one Gospel for all believers.

Agreed. What was the point you were making?

What Gentiles believed the preaching of Peter? Paul too preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. Stop and think about it, how could Paul be preaching a different Gospel when he told the Gentiles that they were grafted into Israel.

Those Gentiles weren't the remnant of Israel. Gentiles were not Israel. That he told them the Gospel he preached doesn't indicate that he preached a different Gospel. That's a non sequitur. When the Jews got converted they still kept the Law of Moses. As I said, the Judaizers were going behind Paul telling his converts that they needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. That was the whole reason for Paul going to Jerusalem. He hadn't gone to the apostles at this point. They didn't know what Paul was teaching. He went up to them to confer with them about the Gentiles keeping the Law. Even when he got to Jerusalem, there were some Pharisees who were believers that said the gentiles needed to keep the Law. This is when they all came together to decide if the Gentiles should keep the Law. The conclusion was no, they didn't. Remember, when Paul went into a new city, the first place he went was the Synagogue. He went to preach to the Jews. He would convert some and use them to start a new church in that city. So Paul was preaching to both Jews and Gentiles. He didn't preach a different Gospel to each group. He preached the same to the Jew and the Gentile.

He went up to the apostles and told them what he was preaching. If you read it from chapter 1 you'll see that there were those who were troubling the Galatians. It was the Judiazers who were telling the Gentiles that in addition to faith in Christ they also had to keep the Law of Moses. We see this issue in Acts 15. And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Acts 15:1 KJV) This causes a big dispute between Paul and these Judaizers. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Acts 15:2 KJV) This is the same event that we see in Galatians where Paul goes up to the apostles in Jerusalem. If you read the entirety of chapter 15 you'll see that the apostles and the church came together to decide if the Gentiles needed to keep the Law. It was determined that they didn't.

It doesn't. Again, my commentary on this passage, Ephesians 1:3-12.

No, it's not about the church. It's about Israel. I've addressed this in a short article that can be found here, Ephesians 1:3-12

They both taught the same Gospel. It seems you're reading things into the text.