Donibm

LOL Well, your brain is certainly ticking. But, don't be so quick to go beyond what is written. There is nothing that says our glorified bodies will be blinded by His glory, so don't think that they will. How else can we behold Him as He really is if He's too bright to even look at? And why wouldn't God want His beloved servants and children look at Him and be at awe? God is type of show off you know. lol Have you never read Him boasting about Himself in Scripture? He DESIRES the adoration and praises of His people. In fact, my Father is probably the biggest attention craver in all existence. LOL! Even now, as I type this, I feel the smile of the Holy spirit ... actually AGREEING with this pun. lol Concerning the Rapture. I'm a little disheartened. Ever since all this "blood moon" business, and the fact that the next set of blood moons wont take place for a few hundred years, I felt saddened. I felt saddened because there will be a blood moon during the Tribulation period. So, that means it could another few hundred years before the Rapture takes place. I so wanted to experience that. So want to get off of this planet. So crave to be with the Lord, and the saints of old. But, the world is not completely against Christianity yet. It's heading that way, but it's not at that point yet. And Islam is growing rapidly. Soon the persecution will be ... global. And the Catholic system is also watching, waiting. It's coming, but the time is not yet at hand. But the signs certainly are showing. But anyway ... I suggest you just read the Bible. It gives you all the answers you need. Bubbles and blinding lights and stuff like that suggest that you either aren't reading, or you have a very lively imagination, or both. So, read. But here is what I see. 1) Rapture. 2) War in heaven as Satan and the demons fight Michael and the angels because Satan is trying to stop the raptured souls from entering Heaven, and if finally and permanetly banished from Heaven. 3) Marriage supper feast of the Lamb in Heaven, were all the countless number of saints are in Heaven, praising God and the Lamb because their Salvation is secure and complete, and their troubles are over with ... all while Tribulation is going on in the earth. 4) Gods promise to Jews still remains, however. 144,000 of the males (probably babies and very young boys) are sealed. Satan is out to destroy Israel during the Tribulation. God is pouring out his wrath on the earth. 5) Jesus returns right when all of the Jews are about to be annihilated. In fact, Judaism teaches that they will see the Messiah when the nation faces complete extinction, or when they all convert at once, and in Revelation, it seems that both of these things happen at the same time. Even Jesus told them, "You will not see Me again, not until you learn to say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." meaning, they will never see His face until they repent and convert and believe in Him. 6) Jesus reigns for 1,000 years and those who are left on earth repopulate the planet, rebuild, etc. But, since they are without temptation (Satan bound for 1,000 years), they too must be tempted to show that they love the Lord, or turn from Him. Only then can they enter paradise. So, Satan is allowed to tempt the world again for a period of time. The Bible says that it will be for a short time ... but how many of you know that a "short time" to God can be a couple of thousands of years!? {My hand shoots up first!} Ooo that urks me. lol But it's all about His grace and mercy. 7) Blah, blah, blah The rapture is not going to be a daunting or discombobulating experience. We will be perfectly aware and perfectly knowing. No one will be like "Huh? Where am I? What happened?" Dont miss it. Cause if you do ... you will be on a world that does not have the Spirit of God and not a single saint will be on this planet (though a whole host of half-baked "Christians" and hypocrites and entire 'denominations' will be left behind, claiming that they are the true ones and the rapture is some sort of hoax. Be ready.

Well, for me, I don't care about Him being "fair" or not. Being "fair" is in the fleshy eyes of the beholder, and race, racism, education, cultural influence, upbringing, and the spirit of the person all influence what we think is "fair". But, He is full of Grace and Mercy. His Word never said He was "fair", but He is fair enough to tell us that we would certainly endure hardships on earth, and it is foolish to blame Him for any of it. Deadly even. But, no prophet or apostle or saint that I know of ever called God ... fair. And what is "fair" anyway? That He doesn't allow bad things? If He didn't, He wouldn't be God because He already said that we would ... and He does not lie. Nor is He playing games. But His GRACE is sufficient for me. And His MERCY endureth forever. That is all we need. Fairness is not even an equatable option to bring to the table. And who can judge God even if it was? Who you gonna call? Ghost busters? The KJB? CIA or FBI? Raise Johnny Cockren from the dead? Who is going to bring a case before God? Job was far more righteous than any of us, and he demanded an audience, but when God finaly showed up, he cowered like a little school girl and didn't dare accuse such great Power of anything wrong. He didnt' dare. Be careful what you say of your Creator (typing to every and anyone who reads this, not the OP directly, cause He is no respector of your titles or educational levels or what you do in your Church, and nor am I). He has a sense of humor, but He's not playing any games. If He will destroy His most beautiful of creations - Lucifer - He will destroy the rebellious Jews. And if He will destroy the Jews, he will destroy Christians as well. So, never think that you are some sort of special little pal of God and think you can mouth off freely. Better to learn from the mistakes of Israel and learn to FEAR HIM. "thou shalt not use the Lord name in vain. Anyone who does will not be found guiltless" I so wish Christians knew what this really means.

MOSES / ELIJAH: Most people think that it's these two, because of the nature of the miracles that are worked, and because of the visitation on the mount when Jesus was transfigured. MOSES / ENOCH: Some believe Moses is definate, not only due to the nature of the miracles, but also because of the mystery of Satan arguing over the dead body of Moses. Like, why would Satan even care about a lifeless corpse? They add Enoch because he was raptured, and didn't experience death. NOTE: the key with Enoch is that he was "seventh from Adam". Raptured. As if this is a sign from God that at around the 7,000th (7 days) year of mankind is when the Rapture would occur. There are other passages, and maybe I'll create a thread on it one day. ELIJAH / ENOCH: Some believe this is the combination because neither Elijah nor Enoch tasted death. Both were raptured, and Heaven is not made up of flesh and blood. However, Scriptures also say that we are to be changed, and Elijah was clearly changed and reappeared with Moses when Jesus was transfigured. So, those are the theories. But, I have my own ... which most have not been told or considered themselves. First, I want you to know that I'm not so big on "tradition." Church traditions are often times, wrong. Furtunately, they do not effect Salvation. So, I don't promote tradition just because mommy and daddy believed it, or pastor so-n-so taught it. Keep in mind, Scriptures do not say who the two witnesses are, your Chruch tradition tries to suggest who they are. But, I know that none of these men worked miracles. Not a one of them. It is GOD who works miracles through His people. It is all Gods power. So, why would Moses be sent back into flesh just to die all over again? That doesn't make sense to me. Same for Elijah and Enoch. Is God so short of servants that he needs to send whom he already used? And why are they both from the Old Covenant instead of the New Covenant (ie - Peter or Paul)? Is this because the Dispensation of Grace is over? And so what? The Dispensation of the Law was long over before it. So neither apply. My point is, it could be anyone. It could be the old prophets, or an apostle of the New Covenant, or anyone else. Again, since the power is of God, God can use whomever He will. Right, or wrong? Since the true Church is raptured, maybe God does send two souls back (since there will no longer be any real saints on earth post the Rapture). Again, there are just my thoughts. Not asking any of you to adopt them. And for me, they are just thoughts, not doctrine. It could be Moses and me for all I know, lol. doesn't really matter. I'm just no pigeon-holed by a "tradition" that has been passed down and it ultimately the "only" option due to it being taught over and over again.

Cletus, It also separates the children from the chickens. (lol, I just made that up) Persecution will either drive the redeemed to their knees, deeply rooting them in the Lord ... or it will raise them to their heels while they cowardly run as far away from their relationship to Jesus as they can (to escape the persecution). I pray my heart is ready for any and all forms of persecution, even unto death. I pray that my love will be pure, no matter what I face. That I will be CONVINCED, even as the Disciples were convinced! After all, what sane person would go to a painful death for a ghost or a lie? They were CONVINCED in our Lord Jesus, that He was indeed God the Son. Otherwise, at least ONE of them would have been like, "OK! OK! OK! Wait a minute! We were just kidding! We took the body of Jesus and made this all up. Please dont' boil me alive! Please don't crucify me upside down. Please don't stone me for blasphemy!" ... but that never happened. Not even with one of them. They were convinced that Jesus was indeed God the Son. Convinced and with a pure love. Oh ... such great accomplishments means so much suffering and loss and dedication. I pray that my heart is ready.

Observe something else in the letters. I typed earlier that Jesus opened up with I KNOW in each letter. But also observe His description of Himself. Notice how each description is different, but PART of the full description that John gave prior? Take for instance, the letter to the oppressed Church, who were being killed. Jesus said that He was killed, but ALIVE AGAIN. So, for each letter, the symbolic thing about Jesus was mentioned so that He can not only show that HE KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS, but that HE HAS CONQUERED the very things that they are going through, and through Him, they too will conquer. That is important too, so don't miss it.

See him for what he WAS. :-) Hummmm, I hate to break the news to you but the only thing that has changed is that he was removed from his office at the throne.... he is still who he is. some of you seem to think he's turned into this horrid demonic figure you see in the movies.... you really do need to prepare people for his arrival.... It won't be hard for non believers to be pulled into his deceptions. That is already known. But he is FALLEN regardless. He is no longer the ANOINTED Cherub. He is not longer the Morning Star. He no longer reflects the brightness of Gods Glory (with all the precious stones on his chest) And while I don't recall him ever being called the "ARCH" angel (as Michael is called), he certainly does not have that position. Point being... Bill Clinton WAS President of United States. He IS {no longer} Commander In Chief. He cannot command the armed forces or other Governmental departments. He is still clever, and I still honor him as a man, but his AUTHORITY and POSITION are gone. Likewise... Lucifer WAS something ... and Satan no longer IS. That is my point. I never said he was any less clever. I see him for what he WAS. I also see him for who he IS - someone that IS defeated. Having no power over me, lest it be given from above, from my FATHER. And if my FATHER allows it, it is only because my FATHERS knows I can win over it, or it will make me stronger. It is never to defeat or destroy me. ... like a dog on a leash. EDIT: and I'm not one of "them" who think Satan is some horrid demonic figure, of red dude with a pitch fork. I'm not saying that he is stupendously beautiful either. After all, he IS fallen and the light that he had was never his own. It was a reflection of Gods glory. And no, it's not my calling to prepare the wicked for the "coming" (I assume you mean the Tribulation Period). No. As Jesus said, "they have the Law of Moses and the Prophets. If they do not believe them, neither shall they believe a man who has risen from the dead." They have the Word of God. They can read ... can't they? If they will not repent or learn or read or turn, that is THEIR problem. Let them reap the seeds of their own corruption! I'll do no such thing as prepare the wicked for Jacobs Trouble, or the Great Tribulation. This country wants God out of everything. They want Christianity gone. They don't want prayer. They don't want worship. We are "bible bumpers" and facists! It is as we say, "be careful what you ask for ... because you just might get it." Give them what they ask for O Lord our God! Give them a time without Your Grace or Your people standing in the gap. Give them their Tribulation! ... and the Word of God (prophecy) cannot be broken. It cannot be stopped. These things will happen regardless.

Though I do appreciate what you are trying to say, I have to disagree that we will eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in "Paradise". The only tree mentioned that we will eat of is the Tree of Life (Revelation 22). The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is never mentioned again as being available to anyone after the incident with Adam and Eve. God Bless, Alan And I must agree with you. :-) I was thinking "tree", but the Tree of Life, not the one mentioned in the garden at that point. Still, there are multiple trees in Heaven, which bear their own fruit each month (perhaps a different fruit each month per tree?) But again, I completely agree with what you are saying. Bad typo/mistake on my part. I seriously doubt that the tree of knowledge will be in the Kingdom ... because we have already partaken of it.

One more thing about the letters. And again people, this is not meant to be exhaustive, and I certainly will not cover line by line, and certainly not all of Revelation. If I did, it would be December and I'll still be typing about it. My only goal of these thread is to point out a few often overlooked things concerning the letters. And even now I am skipping things. But, there is one thing that I believe is more important than anything else I can (or should) type, and it is the reason for the Letters. REPENT!!! Observe: this isn't a message to the world, but a message to CHRISTIANS! REPENT! STOP IT! TURN BACK! YOU ARE BEHAVING TOO MUCH LIKE THE WORLD!! Jesus is giving US, not the world, a stern and sharp warning to repent and turn back, to stop living in sin, to stop compromising the Truth, to stop living with one foot in the Church and one foot in the world, to stop heeding winds of doctrine, the err of Balaam, to stop heeding the Nicolatians, those who profess to be Christians, but aren't, and to even stop honoring the Jews above their station - they who mocked and rejected the Lord. REPENT ... LEST IS REMOVE YOU FROM YOUR PLACE AND SNUFF OUT YOUR CANDLES! This is perhaps, more important than anything else I could type concerning the letter. The letters were written as a WARNING, and a COMMAND for the saints of God to REPENT, not a call to the world to repent, but for US to turn and get serious about our Salvation. And, the promise of what will happen if we do NOT repent is also clearly noted. "Be zealous therefor, and repent, for as much as I love, I chastise" - Jesus I am being very, very serious with you brethren. This is not just another "online thread". I am encouraging your and admonishing you to the best of my ability over a mere webpage, without being wordy or scholastic (even with typing errors). If you fall into any category, or if the Spirit convicts you, be zealous and REPENT! Stop doing it. Turn back. This is the message of the Lord, not the teaching of a mere man. To he that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to ALL CHRISTIANS.

@ bopeep Ignore the psuedoChristians. The letters arent' written for those who are Christian by name only. They are left out of this, as they are left out in Revelation. What I'm saying is that individually, there are Christians like all of the Churches mentioned in Revelation.

Persecution does not destroy the Church ... it promotes it. Seen it happen in Rome, when they made sport of us. Instead of our forefathers going to their deaths whining and begging, they went singing songs of praise to our God. What happened was, all those people saw it over and over again, and then THEY started saying, "these people are innocent!" and then that quickly changed into "Look at how they meet their deaths with singing and praise, not cowardice and fear and pleading! I want what THEY have! I want to know this GOD whom they so adore, even under the pain of death!" ... and Christianity spread. Unfortunately, Satan is more clever than we give him credit. He was watching. His Ba'al had not been removed, it only took on a different form. And as such ... enter Constantine ... and the Catholic Institution ... and the Church was infiltrated and the persecution continued, it was driven underground ... for centuries and centuries ... from fear ... while the Vatican grew and grew. But, there is a purity is suffering. Even as the Scriptures tell us, that "sin looses its power when the body suffers" Tell me, which of you want to go to the nightclub when you have a migraine headache? Which of you want to commit sexual sin with a blown out back? Who is thinking about lying, cheating or stealing when you are burying your beloved parents? Who among you wants to rob a bank when your tooth aches so bad from a much needed root canal? Indeed. Sin looses its power when we suffer. Now, reflect back on what Jesus said to the suffering Church...

@ Cletus I like your quote - Hosea 6:6 It is good that you see that there is no word of condemnation ... especially to the SUFFERING CHURCH. Now, consider our African Christian brothers. Consider how they are being raped, killed, and mutilated by those Muslims. Consider their poverty. Consider their Government doesn't want anything to do with Christendom. They suffer. But, in my eyes, they are some of the most POWERFUL CHRISTIANS ON THE PLANET. Great is their dedication. Great is their love to our Lord. They are not so distracted by all the joys and comforts of Western Civilization. Their preaching is POWERFUL. I've seen one be douced with acid, terribly scarred for life, yet he remains in God and remains steadfast and prayerful. Too many American Christians would have blamed God for their disfigurement and broken marriage due to a permanently and grossly scarred face! Ye! A reputation for being alive, but are DEAD! Ye! A reputation for being rich, but are poor, naked and ashamed! But what blame can I lay at the feet of those brethren in poorer areas of the world? Oppressive areas of the world? What negative thing can I say about the persecuted Indians who are trying to spread the Gospel? So, our Lord does not lay blame either, but instead, He lays comfort. After all, what would it profit God to lay blame and further burden on a people who are suffering for HIM and HIS Glory ... constantly? That would cause anyone to throw in the towel. But our Lords yoke is easy, and His burden is light.

@ bopeep Of course. But remember to attribute it to a PERSONAL and INDIVIDUAL level. The Scripture is for all saints, and whomever falls into that category, falls into it. So, are there Christians like all of these? Absolutely.

@ Spock. Funny. Well, there is another morsel, and it concerns the Jews. The part that says "who say they are Jews, but are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan" ... isn't talking about people who claim to be Jews, it IS about Jews. Let me explain... Jesus is having this message sent to Christians. Jews rejected the Messiah, and as such, were rejected BY the Messiah. They are heading for damnation. No if, ands or buts about it. Jesus Himself said to them that they will feel awful when their fathers and all nations enter in but they themselves are cast out into outter darkness. You see, Isaiah said it. Isaiah told us who and what ISRAEL really is. He said that Israel are those who turn from sin (basically). What Isaiah was saying was reinforced and further explained by Paul. Paul wrote that the real Jew is not the one with blood ties to Jacob, but the one who is INWARDLY. Basically, and African who has a heart towards God and a desire to live for Him is more of a Jew than someone who is unsaved, rejects God, but can prove their geneology tie right back to king David. A lot of things the Paul taught weren't actually new teachings. They were things that existed already in the Hebrew text, such as circumcising the foreskin of your heart. That was what Moses originally taught, not Paul. So, fast forward to Revelation and you see Jesus Himself essentially saying that "You see these Jews? These ones who have rejected Me? These, whom My bride will call "Judaizers" in times to come? They are not of Me. They do not belong to Me. Their persecution of you is of no command of Mine. In fact, I don't even know them and I have already cut them off." Basically, that is what Jesus was saying to those Gentile/Jewish Christians in that Church. He was saying that their geneology means nothing to Him and they are not what they boast about - Gods special little people (for God Himself had cut them off, evidenced by all the suffereing and them being scattered). I think, when people learn what "only a remnant will be saved" really means, they will know that Isaiah was talking about only a small number of Jacobs descendants will enter the Kingdom. But when they also learn what "all of Israel will be saved", they will know that ISRAEL is all the saints, from every nation, tongue, creed, since even before Jacob was born. Job was no Hebrew, but he is indeed part of Israel, because he died in Gods will. This is what Isaiah and Paul were saying ... and what Jesus was eluding to. "They call themselves Jews, but are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan" - Jesus Powerful, powerful words by our Lord. But too often people forget who the audience was - Christians - and they forget about the persecution of the Christians by the Judaizers. But God has told us, that not even the Jews are in any position or right to tell us that we are wrong in Jesus. Think on it. Read it. Pray about it ... if you have a problem with it due to mainstream teaching and rumor spreading. This has nothing to so with "fake Jews", such as these Hebrew Israelites walking around, or these people who go through the hard process of converting to Judaism, and then are called "Jew" ... but have no bloodline to Jacob. Now, this isn't what Jesus is talking about at all. He is talking about JEWS, but because of their rejection of Him, He has rejected them. And since Paul was called and sent by Jesus, is not Paul correct when he says that the REAL JEW is one who is inward (children of faith and obedience) and not one outwardly (bloodline of Jacob)? Jesus warned the Jews not to boast of that, saying that God could turn the very stones into sons of Abraham. lol They trust in their bloodline and traditions to save them, but they are already doomed. Only a remnant... But ALL of Israel will be saved. EDIT: and this is a Messianic Prophecy, that they would reject the Messiah (God) and in turn, will be rejected BY Him.

@ Atwood, For me, I've identified where I fall. I've done it in personal conversation and in online threads. It's really no wonder or question. But I do wonder about those tho think they are "alive" but are dead. I wonder if they can discern who they are. Intersting, but I'm much slower to adopt things that are beyond what is written. Perhaps there is a measure to the movements, but then again, the CHURCH is not a certain area or a certain age of a certain nation. The CHURCH transcends nations, cultures and generations. The CHURCH, are the born against believers, whether they are black, white or Asian, rich or poor, male or female, educated or not, great and mighty in works or new converts. So, to me, it is far beyond an age or movement, though elements of what is in Revelation could most certainly apply.

This is more of a "study" thread, but since I cannot create threads in that section... This is not going to be exhaustive. I'm only going to point out a few simple things that are often overlooked. 1) John was on an island, not travelling all over the place. So, how could he have known what was going on in all those locations? He couldn't. How can someone from Bermuda know what is going on in Cuba, or North Carolina, or Texas, or Florida (before all this technology)? They couldn't. Likewise, John couldn't have known what was going on in those locations, so the RECEPIENTS clearly received the letters with great joy, knowing and convinced that it was inspired by Jesus, not observed by John. 2) Jesus opened each letter with two powerful words, that I'm finding most overlook - I KNOW. Not only was He saying that He was well aware, but that He also understood because He Himself suffered greatly, and was poor, and was often hungry, and was beaten, and made to feel ashamed, etc. 3) The letters were not for those individual Churches only, but for ALL Christians across ALL generations. As the saying goes, "who the cap fits - wear it." We know this because of how each letter ends. "... what the Spirit says to the ChurchES". That is plural. And it is not specific to a location, but to the body of Christ. So, when you read those letters, you should be asking yourself, which of them do YOU fit into. ... maybe some more later. I've a great deal to say about Revelation, but too much to type in any online thread. Still, just sharing these morsels.