Atwood

I realize that many are used to thinking that Jephthah's daughter was a burnt offering, but that is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word 'olah, which literally means "rising" and can refer to a burnt offering, but not necessarily. There were human sacrifices in the Old Testament, namely "wave offerings." But they did not involve killing anyone. "I beseech you . . . a living sacrifice" in the New Testament. Study it closer and see if you agree that the text does not imply that the daughter was killed, but rather made like a nun who never married.

Does anyone think that "sanctions" will accomplish any good? Last I knew, Europe seemed dependent on Russia's natural gas. Does it really make any sense to attack individuals who are in Putin's circle?

I really would like someone to explain what "gaining jobs" means. I don't recall hearing that phrase before our current president. Does it mean that there were 228k jobs added more than jobs lost? Or could they say that 228K jobs were gained when 500K were lost? I think it would be much more meaningful to know what percent of the population aged 18-66 is employed. And if you subtract the employed from the same population, you do not get what they are putting out as the unemployment figure. I think the media has a conspiracy to deceive the people.

"And he went out and wept bitterly." Yes, Peter sinned, but let's consider what the Lord said about Peter's coming problems: Luke 22: "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: but I made supplication for you that your faith fail not; and do you, when once you have turned again, establish your brethren." So Peter had faith before the denial. And whosoever believes has everlasting life, is born again.

It has seemed to me for some time that the Lord has been doing various things to force Israel to return to the land.

It has seemed to me that apologizing for remarks just validates those who disparage the public figure who made them.

The Ephesian Church had that problem when Rev was written. Note how Paul prayed for them on the same subject in Ephesians 3. There the human responsibilty is fulfilled by faith (Christ dwells in the heart by faith). We love Him because He first loved us. How about reading and marking the God-loves-us passages & meditating on them: The love of Christ constrains us.

Of course; they consider part of Russia, and there is no one willing to fight them over it.

Oakwood observed: "The cleric issued his fatwa" I don't know who issues the fatwas in England; I don't think the Queen is allowed to do that any longer. But in the USA it is our SCOTUS that issues the fatwas (Supreme Court). Now consider the outrageous fatwas issued here, going back to Rowe v Wade. And the courts have been fat with their fatwas since, even promoting social revolution in morality.

The thread: "I do not believe that these things are pre-determined. They are known. "That's what I believe. They are known, not predestined. because that means that the cancer epidemic in the USA and other countries was planned by God. "Same here." How do you handle all the passages in the Bible that use the vocabulary like predestine, predestined, predestinated, elect, chosen, called, His purpose which vocabulary is used a significant number of times -- or have you examined the passaged?

Fez asked: "Why bother to pray at all" Methinks the standard answer is that God not only predestines outcomes, but also their means. Fez apparently rejects the concept of predestination, saying: "not predestined." Predestination is no doubt a revolting and outrageous idea for many. But what will you do with all the scripture on the subject and on election? There is a lot on it in the Bible. Have you done a concordance check of such passages? Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 come to mind at once. Here is Romans 9, a passage that a man who believed in predestination stuck under my nose when I was an unsaved youth, a passage which helped lead me to trust Christ as Savior: "10 And not only so; but Rebekah also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— 11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, 12 it was said to her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Let it not be so. 15 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God that has mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise you up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. 18 So then he has mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardens. 19 You wilt say then unto me, Why does he still find fault? For who withstands his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst you make me thus? 21 Or has not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel to honor, and another to dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared to glory, 24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? "

Hall7: "That's what makes me feel immortal when I do extreme sports. Makes the hobbies more enjoyable, can't be careless and suicidal about it though and always pray before." Hall, I don't know what you mean by "extreme sports," but your context indicates dangerous things? One thing about reading these forums is that you learn new concepts and vocabulary. "always pray before" Now if only I could alway remember to pray first.

Oakwood doesn't think the idea is Christian: "I don't think so. It eliminates the concept of free will. A number of Far-Eastern religions believe that we have a pre-appointed time of death, but it's not a Christian thing." We really have to ponder the doctrines of election and predestination, which are definitely in the Bible -- not that all Bible-believers interpret this doctrine the same. Let's look at a couple of passages: 1) < Acts 17 "The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; neither is he served by men’s hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life, and breath, and all things; and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek God," 2) < Acts 2 You men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay" Does the concept or predictive prophecy require that God controls the course of history? He predicted the return of Israel. Does that require Him imposing a sovereign will to preserve and move Israel to return? How often does the Bible indicate that God turns hearts? (The King's heart is in the hand of the Lord; He turns it withersoever He will.) Oakwood, do you think that it is somehow possible that the Lord has predetermined exactly everything that happens yet preserving free will, so at the same time men make free decisions without any compulsion, yet it is just what God determined would happen? If you read Tolkien's Simarillion, I think you will see this POV put forth, though Tolkien does not use the name of God in "The Music of the Ainur": "And it came to pass that Ilúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, … "Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Ilúvatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Ilúvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void. … "But now Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. … Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Ilúvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged. "Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery. Then again Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity. And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Ilúvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern. … "Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.' (The text is on the internet; I don't know the page number in the book, but it is near the start.)

Other one rightly observed "you are not innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of God he knows." You are so right. God's Judgment has no resemblance to a Perry Mason trial.

Jade expresses what I think is a common idea which has been put forth by some preachers: "Moses killed a man in a fit of temper. Moses broke the tablets that had the 10 commandments in a fit of anger. Moses didnt get to go into the promised land because he lost his temper and struck a rock. Moses exhibited quite a bit of anger." The point about striking the rock the 2nd time is well-taken. He surely did get angry, having taken incredible guff off of the Children of Israel for so long, he evidently exploded at this point and spoiled the type: Christ smitten once for our sins needs not ever to be smitten again for them. Now we just have to "speak to the Rock" to be saved (in faith). However, at the time he smote the rock, he had the divinely attested quality of being the meekest man on earth. Thus this one instance on one day cannot be used to characterize Moses. So that is hardly "quite a bit of anger," one instance in 40 years of enduring the most incredible opposition from the wicked. Moreover, it would have spoiled a type for Moses (who stands for the Law) to have led Israel across Jordan. Joshua, name same as Jesus, is the one to lead them into the promised land. Now as to the rest of it: You allege that "Moses killed a man in a fit of temper." Where does the Bible say that he did that in a fit of temper? You alleged that: "Moses broke the tablets that had the 10 commandments in a fit of anger." Now where does the Bible say that he did this in a fit of anger? Should we not put the best construction on his actions possible? Now there was Israel sinfully playing before an idol. God had given Moses the 10 commandments. Could it be that Moses was afraid of God's judgment on Israel if he suddenly exposed them to God's Law? The Law condemns. Over and over when Israel sinned in the Wilderness, we see a man who was the most meek man on earth, interceding so that Israel might be spared God's wrath, even when it looks like God was ready to exercise wrath except for Moses' intercession. Does the text say "fit of anger"? Could it be compassion in view of the great danger of bringing God's law into the congregation at this time? Note that the Shekinah Glory hovered over the 10 commandments which were later in the Ark. But between God and His commandments is the blood of the Lord Jesus (symbolized by the blood of animal sacrifice sprinkled on the lid of the Ark, the Mercy Seat. Until someone shows me in the Bible that Moses was characterized by a bad temper, I feel bound to obey the commandment: "Judge not" in the case of Moses, but recognize as you rightly pointed out that for a few moments at least out of 40 years, one day the most humble man in all the world (Moses) blew it. Thanks for bringing up that example.

You express what I think is a a common opinion: "I don't believe it was okay because he ran after he committed the crime." But how do you know it was a crime, instead of proper defense of the people of God as God's appointed deliverer? And how do you know that in the course of protecting the innocent, Moses did not have to kill the Egyptian or be killed himself by him? Now what do you think of Hebrews 11? Heb 11 says: "By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; choosing rather to share ill treatment with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; accounting the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt: for he looked to the recompense of reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible."

The first step in any battle vs any sin is to trust Christ as Savior and be born again. Next: "And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we first believed. The night is far spent, and the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. Let us walk becomingly, as in the day; not in revelling and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof. " "Walk by the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." " And Peter went down from the boat and walked upon the waters to come to Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand and took hold of him, and says to him, O you of little faith, why did you doubt?" What do you think? Does victory over sin come by concentrating on the sin, gritting the teeth, and chanting, "I won't, I won't, I won't"? Or does it come by fixing the eyes on the Lord Jesus?

It is appointed unto man once to die. It is like the Rapture, liable to happen at any time so far as we know.

Willimina, Your opinion shared is that "But he did not wait on God to do it in God's wisdom and power. Instead he went about it in his own strength and wisdom, presumptiously, and got himself into trouble." No doubt you have heard that said, and I think it has been often said, but Where does the Bible say that?

Kwik, help me out. Where does the Bible say that Moses had quite a temper? We do find evidence for it for Zipporah his wife who threw something at Moses' feet. Doesn't the word say that Moses was the most humble man?

Jude: "20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the LOVE of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And on some have MERCY, who are in doubt; 23 and some save, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. " Titus 1 "10 For there are many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped;" 2 Cor 5 14 For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again. 16 Wherefore we henceforth KNOW NO MAN AFTER THE FLESH;[b/]

Indeed what you describe is painful for the lady. We are guaranteed tribulation in this life, if we are Christians. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. As to Sarah, it is quite possible that there was some popular story around in his day about a man being killed so someone could take his beautiful wife. Abe was famous for trusting the Lord. That was his strong point. But a few times he failed to trust the Lord, as in telling Sarah to tell kings she was his sister (a truth, but deceit with bad consequences). But I don't know of any verse that says "He gives his wife to a foreign king as a wife." After he told the king that the beautiful woman was his sister, then the king took Sarah. And Abe made no effort to impede this so far as we know. So you could say it was close to giving.

I think the best explanation of that is in Romans 9-11.

Punch the mouth? I thought they liked to throw shoes. At least he didn't say to cut off his head with a butcher knife while he is alive.

It is interesting if Al-Qaeda and the Islamists consider the USA a Christian nation. If my memory serves me correctly, Bin Laden came to the USA and happened to go to some church fellowship meeting at a church member's home, like a Sunday school group. There they did couples dancing, married persons dancing with persons married to someone else. He was scandalized. I wonder if the Islamists will change their mind on the USA being Christian. I believe that in their "theology," a straight out pagan is more of a target for attack than a Christian is.