OakWood

Are you still here? I thought you might have been raptured by now. Well never mind, tomorrow maybe.... or the day after.... perhaps next week. And by the way... you're right. Millions do believe in the pre-Trib rapture, because they study the Bible... and then they extrapolate, add, divide, multiply, twist and flourish what they have read. And not only that, they're the only ones who can really understand what scriptures say, because after all they belong to the 'special' generation. Not like those billions of ignorant Christians who came before them such as Peter, John, John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley and any other post-Trib ignoramuses. who were stupid enough to suffer for their faith instead of chilling out and waiting for God to send them a free taxicab to hotel paradise. As I have already said... the millions of pre-Tribbers who do study the Bible have also been previously fed the pre-Trib narrative. The millions of other believers who also study the Bible have not been fed any previous narrative. There's no such thing as post-Trib doctrine. Post-Trib is the conclusion that you come to if you read scripture without pride and let the Holy Spirit be your guide. But it doesn't really matter, we can always continue this discussion another day - perhaps next month or next year, or maybe after the Tribulation has started. Because there's a very good chance you're still going to be here.

I'm not against pre-Trib. As I already said... I'd never heard of either. Pre-Trib sounds great to me. I wish it was true, but it isn't. But typically you accuse me of being biased. You obviously didn't read what I had written, or like most pre-Tribbers completely ignored it. And your explanation is exactly what I claimed; over-complicated. Adding stuff that isn't really there, and making assumptions. For example, the so-called raptured church that John is supposed to have seen, well all I can say is.: We're not the only Christians, you know...... what about the ones that have lived for the last two thousand years or so? But in typical pre-Trib mindset, "it's all about you". Despite 2000 years of Christian martyrdom, you're the special privileged generation, the only ones to escape without any testing. The apostle Peter suffered on the cross, Tyndale was burned at the stake for his faith. Thousands of saints were tortured and murdered under the inquisition, Christians were thrown to the lions by Nero, but U.S. Christians living in nice houses with nice cars whose worst ever trial in life was worrying about being late for work; are so privileged that God will give them unique treatment that nobody has ever had before. No beheadings for them, or even struggling to buy or sell; not for this snowflake generation. Jesus says that he who endures to the end, the same shall be saved. But what exactly is there to endure when you're up in the sky, sipping nectar cocktails and having a grandstand view of the entire show? Nobody ever comes to the conclusion that there is a pre-Trib rapture unless they are pre-programmed to believe it. If you've never heard of it, you'll never assume it. Whereas Post-Trib and to some extent Mid-Trib are the obvious conclusions of reading the text. Yet despite my explanation you proved my point. Pre-Tribbers are unwilling to let go. Thank you for proving me right.

Why would anyone be afraid of Pre-Trib? It sounds too good to be true. A free pass from all the suffering. No, in reality it's the Post-Trib that's the scary one, and Biblically it's also the correct one. The false prophet enters the temple, then Christians are persecuted for 3 and a half-years and then at the end of all this Jesus comes to rescue us (the rapture), defeat the Devil and then set up the Millennial reign. This fits in perfectly with what the Bible says. The pre-Trib has to add all sorts of stuff to scripture that simply isn't there. 'Jesus comes back, then he leaves, then he comes back again', all that sort of nonsense. If you simply read scripture word for word without adding your own pre-conceptions (and wishful thinking) to it, you'll find the truth. Always read scripture without pre-conceived ideas. I read scripture without any bias, neither accepting nor rejecting either pre-Trib or Post-Trib doctrine. In fact the first time I started reading the Bible I was completely unaware of either rapture theory so I had no bias to overcome either way. The pre-Retrib rapture is essentially popular doctrine in the U.S.A. but is almost unheard of among Christians outside of North America. It was never even considered by early Christians, nor by subsequent ones. It became popular because of teachers such as John Nelson Derby and Hal Lindsey who brainwashed thousands of Americans with the idea, so that from an early age these churchgoers were taught to believe in it. It is so comforting to them, that they can't let go of it, no matter how much they are shown the error of their ways. The truth sometimes is too painful to deal with. Pre-Trib is simply un-Biblical and many times this has been explained on Worthy forums, yet the pre-Tribbers simply won't let go! Instead, they don their Sherlock Holmes outfits, pull out their huge magnifying glasses, pick up their pocket calculators and go to work trying desperately to find the needle in the haystack that simply isn't there. Then when they've subtracted Daniel's 70th week from this, and added it to that, then divided it by something else, they yell "Eureka", here it is... I've found it." But it's just an exercise in puzzle-solving and riddles - and has little to do with understanding the simple truth of God's word. I don't doubt the intelligence or integrity of pre-Tribbers. Many are smart people who are clever at analysis, and have an admirable patience and dedication when it comes to trying to solve Biblical conundrums, but they are motivated by a false premise. They are motivated by a desire to justify something that they already believe in, rather than being motivated by the humility of understanding that they know nothing, but simply want to ask God questions that will give them knowledge. But why try to complicate the simple truth of God's teachings? Why make His word more complicated than it already is? It's possible to convince anybody that they've found just about anything in scripture if they desperately want to, but only if they add 'this', assume 'that', and deceive themselves into believing God has said something that he never actually said. For example: Homosexuals can convince themselves that God is okay with Gay marriage if they assume beforehand that he is (and want him to be so) just by twisting scripture, adding what they desire, and deleting what they don't like. The same goes for anybody who wishes to believe in something that their heart's desire. But in the end it's all about the truth. Jesus tells us to come to him as a small child. Small children know nothing, yet their curiosity leads them to ask questions. They don't have pre-assumptions. That's how we should be. Post-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Trib, or even no Trib at all.... who knows? Who cares? Who is willing to accept whatever God tells them (even if it hurts at first and they don't like the answer that God gives them)? At the end of the day, Post-Trib (and even possibly Mid-Trib) fits the Biblical narrative. Pre-Trib only works if you add your own bias to scripture and look for stuff that isn't actually there in the first place.

Yes you can be saved, and probably are saved - but there is something dark troubling you. Demons will always make a person feel that God does not love them. They will try to make a saved person believe that they are not saved. They will try to make a person despise God. I believe you're a target of demonic oppression and probably have been for some time. A Christian can never be possessed by demons but those nasty little devils can sure try to make your life a living Hell. And they love to target Christians if they get the opportunity. That's why we should always wear the full armour of God to give us protection. Demons know that there is no salvation for them and that they have already been judged; and they despise human beings out of sheer envy and they want to make us as miserable as they are. Misery loves company. Pray to God (even if you feel you don't trust him). Pray in the name of Jesus Christ to set you free. I will pray for you too.

Neom is definitely an Illuminati concept. It sounds good, it looks good and it seems benign... but it's not. The Devil masquerades as an angel of light; but his true nature is cursed with darkness. Welcome to Neom, the new Babel. Welcome to the enslavement of mankind: Model Number One.

I love this YouTube channel.

Well, the story of Mithras, for example, was completely different to Jesus at one time, but later writers changed it and claimed that Mithras was born of a virgin. There are other examples that I can't think of off the top of my head. The point I'm trying to make is that Atheists used the revised versions of these myths, not the original versions of these myths, to claim similarities between the Bible and Paganism. But also as you have already stated, the Jesus story was changed too, to match Pagan myths. This has caused confusion among people who haven't bothered to check their history.

The problem is that Satan tries to reverse history and claims that the Pagan myths came first and Jesus came afterwards.But the reality is that Jesus came before the Pagan myths - or rather, Jesus came before the Pagan myths were rewritten and adapted to copy the story of Jesus. So, for example - there may be a Pagan god who was worshipped long before Jesus came, but his story was originally completely different. After Jesus came the Pagan god's story was re-written to roughly match the story of Jesus. This causes people to believe that the story of Jesus was copied from a Pagan myth because the Pagan god was being worshipped before Jesus arrived. The problem with Atheists and other mockers of Christianity is that they don't research their history - they just believe what they have been told by other Atheists. In fact, most Atheists and other scoffers are guilty of doing the very things they accuse Christians of doing. Atheists accuse Christian of being stupid, superstitious idiots who believe everything they are told without testing it, but in reality most Christians examine the evidence and use discernment. It is the Atheists who believe what they are told without testing it. They believe in Evolution, they believe in the Big-Bang, and they believe in false science. They are either too lazy or too afraid to test such claims. They believe in such nonsense because men in white coats with lots of letters after their names tell them that such a reality is so. In other words, Atheism is nothing other than a religion, because Atheists believe what the high priests of scientism tell them; and they believe it obediently and without question!

Atheists and other Christian-bashers love to claim that the story of Jesus was stolen from Pagan religions, but nothing could be further from the truth. It is more likely that Pagan myths were later twisted to form a counterfeit of Christianity:

I agree with you. It is wrong for adults; but to set a bad example to children is one thing - to coerce or manipulate children into such depravity is quite another. I am reminded of Luke 17:2.

This is probably coming next. Satan never stops sowing the seeds of depravity, and as we approach the End Times things are going to get worse. We must protect children from this evil.

You're right Shiloh, it's not. But at least an adult is old enough to be accountable for the fruits of their sins. To inflict such confusion upon children is a gross abomination worthy of severe judgement, and is far... far worse!

The word vicar is derived from Latin, as is 'vicarious' which means 'substitute' or 'in place of another'. So 'vicar of christ' means more or less the same thing as 'Antichrist'. The RCC did not form until the 4th Century AD (over two hundred years after Peter's death), and was really just a make-over of the Roman government - until then zealous persecutors of Christians. So Peter and his followers were persecuted by Rome until Rome decided (somewhat dubiously) to adopt Christianity. How can the RCC be the 'true Church' if it had been persecuting Christians for nearly three hundred years? Did the true Church at one time persecute itself? Despite the Vatican's persecution, torture and murder of those who refused to follow the doctrines of Rome, Christianity refused to die out, and that is why we still have the word of God today.. This is what Jesus meant when he said to Peter: "That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Catholics cannot use the claim that this sort of persecution no longer exists, because that's not the point. All the decrees to torture, burn and kill were done by Popes and Popes are meant to be infallible in matters of the word of God. If it is now acknowledged that those decrees were wrong (and in contravention of the Ten Commandments) then there is no such thing as infallibility of the Pope. In fact if just one Pope can be proven to have made a mistake in spiritual matters then the entire doctrine of infallibility comes crashing down like a house of cards, and there is absolutely no sound reason, (never mind a divine one) to trust without question the word of one single Pope. If one Pope is wrong, they could all be wrong! From the teachings of Catholics themselves (so they have no excuse by blaming these accusations on non-Catholic sources): Roman Catholics use Mary and other 'saints' to intercede with Jesus. This is clearly in contravention of scripture. 1 Timothy 2:5 tells us that there is "one God, and one mediator BETWEEN God and men, the man Christ Jesus". How many Gods are there? ONE. How many mediators are there? ONE. It baffles me how often Catholics fail to understand the meaning of the word 'one.' The Pope is called 'father'. Even lowly priests are called 'father'. This is in contravention of Matthew 23:9. I could go on, but I'll save it all for another time.

Shh... don't tell anyone but..... It's all a farce. The world's a stage and the actors are just reading out their scripts. Just one more step towards the NWO.

It's a joke, but strangely enough...... a joke that will probability turn out to be reality very soon.

It used to be called Agenda 21 but the Illuminati realised that they couldn't make it by that date, so it's now been changed to Agenda 2030. There has to be a massive culling take place before they can establish one-world government. They intend to reduce the world's population to less than 1 billion. How they will do this is through war, starvation, disease, decrease in birth rates - however they can possibly do so, in fact. The key players behind this plot are the families of the Illuminati such as the Rockefellers, the Morgans, the Bush's, the DuPonts, the Soros family, and of course the nefarious Rothschilds. The Jesuits and the Vatican are also key players; some believe that the Jesuits are the ones who are really in charge. Key personalities involved with this agenda include George HW Bush, Henry Kissinger, Jacob Rothschild, and the various living members of the Rockefeller dynasty. There are also other puppets being used such as Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, the Clintons, Al Gore, and a number of other wealthy billionaires. Organisations that are involved include the Freemasons, the Skull and Bones Society, the Bilderburg group, and the Council for Foreign Relations. They meet once a year at Bohemian Grove which is always heavily guarded and shrouded in secrecy. These people already control Hollywood; the mainstream Media (press and TV) in both the U.S.A. and the UK, and in most of the developed world; the record industry; the oil industry, the pharmaceutical industry and a number of other facilities. They have infiltrated most governments around the world as well as the military, the judiciary and the education system of all major nations. They are behind many other things too such as the 'Black lives matter' movement, and various other Left-Wing pressure groups. They are also heavily involved in human trafficking and child sacrifices. They are all Satanists and they intend to rule the world, making the rest of the population their debt slaves. We will have nothing, and they will have everything. We will be the slave workers and they will be the benefactors. They will introduce a one-world religion which will culminate in worship of the beast. Anybody who speaks out against this new religion will be persecuted. The United Nations was built on Theosophy, a cult admired by Adolf Hitler, and started by Helena Blavatsky. Theosophists worship Lucifer. The United Nations is a front for world peace but behind the scenes it has a completely different agenda. Whether Donald Trump is involved with all this is not known for certain. Some claim that he is fighting against the New World Order, others claim that he is merely controlled opposition who was voted into power to make right-minded people think that they had won the battle against lunatic Leftist policies. Only time will tell. Trump may well turn out to be a cuckoo in the nest; just another puppet. Don't forget that he received a Jesuit education. Others claim that Vladimir Putin is the real champion that is standing against the New World Order, but once again we do not know for certain. He too could be just part of the agenda. It's just another part of the Hegelian Dialect. Then of course, we have to consider Pope Francis and his role in establishing the NWO. He is the first ever Jesuit to sit in the top seat of the Vatican. A shudder runs down my spine whenever I think of that fact! Whatever the real truth behind this plot is, only Jesus will eventually set us free us from it. We might be able to delay the diabolical agenda of the NWO but we can't stop it from happening - because it's prophesied to happen!

I don't believe that God has sent Islam to punish the West but God is ALLOWING Islam to punish the West. When we turn our backs on God, he removes his hand of protection. Also, whenever we reject God, Satan steps in to fill the void. Now, I know that there are many righteous Christians still living in the West; but on the whole, the stronghold of Christendom that once was, has now fallen!

California has introduced legislation that could eventually lead to banning the Bible: http://www.catholicworldreport.com/2018/04/15/california-assembly-bill-2943-is-a-direct-assault-on-free-speech-truth-about-same-sex-attraction/ http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2943

You're using an invalid argument. Just because it was wrong of the Pope to tell the young boy that his father was in heaven, does not mean that the only alternative is to tell him that his father is in Hell. There are many things that the Pope could have said to comfort the boy without lying to him. He could have said for example, that "God is loving and caring and always makes the right decisions" or something like that. You're basically accusing all those here who disagree with the Pope of believing that the Pope should have said the opposite... when there are many other things that he could have said. This is a straw-man fallacy. Try thinking first before jumping in with your emotions. And by the way, Pope Francis is a member of the Jesuits, one of the most deceitful and devious of all societies. As a religious order, the Jesuits have been expelled from no less than 83 countries in the last few hundred years because they interfered in the policies of state governments and spread lies and propaganda in their education systems. They were expelled from Brazil in 1754, Portugal in 1759, Russia in 1820, and France in 1880. Pope Clement XIV banned the order in 1773 and was subsequently poisoned by a Jesuit assassin for doing so. The Jesuits were not reinstated until 1814 (by Pope Pius VII). Francis is a trained liar; in fact all Jesuits are taught that lying is acceptable if it is for the common good (the common good being the supremacy of the Roman Catholic Church). Jesuits also take a secret oath which declares that even murder is acceptable if it protects the Church. The Jesuits are one of the most subversive and evil organisations ever created. They hide behind good deeds, as a cover for their real intentions. Never before in history has there been a Jesuit Pope, until now - Francis is the first. This is highly ominous.

Can I just add, YouTube is great way to spread the word of God, but get in there quick because it won't last long. As we approach the End Times the plug will be pulled. Like all of the Media, Christians who spread the true word of God are being censored more and more. Use what time you have before you are silenced from the internet completely.

There won't be any rapture before the Tribulation. Was Noah rescued when God sent the Flood? Yes - he and his family escaped God's wrath. Was Lot rescued when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes - he escaped God's wrath. Were Christians raptured when Nero threw them to the lions? No, because this was not the wrath of God but the wrath of evil. Are Christians in the Middle East being raptured in order to avoid being tortured or murdered by ISIS? No, because this is not an act of God, but an act of evil. God rescues the righteous from his own wrath. He does not necessarily rescue them from the persecution of evil ones. The Great Tribulation will be a time of woe for the righteous; where Christians will be persecuted, refused the right to buy and sell and some even beheaded.God does not persecute the righteous, so the Great Tribulation is clearly an act of evil performed by the Antichrist. Christians will not be raptured. After the Tribulation, Jesus will return and send his wrath on those who have taken the mark of the Beast. This is the wrath of God, and Christians will be raptured away from it. The rapture is a post-Trib event, not a pre-Trib one. There is nothing in the Bible that supports a pre-Trib rapture. Any verses that pre-Tribbers find to support their claim are equally valid when describing a post-trib rapture. The pre-Trib rapture is simply wishful thinking. Think of all the Christian martyrs that have existed throughout history and today in the Middle East. Yet some American Christians think they are special in God's eyes and will escape what their forerunners had to endure. The pre-Trib rapture is a 'feel good' teaching for people who like to have their ears tickled, but it is not Biblical. Matthew 24 clearly tells us that times of persecution are ahead, yet pre-Tribbers love to bury their heads in the sand. I'm not interested in what anybody believes, they can believe in what they like. People often believe what they want to hear. I'm only interested in the truth. If I find a truth and don't like it, I still have to swallow it and accept it. The truth is the word of God which is scripture; and scripture tells me that there is no pre-Trib rapture. It's clear and it's simple, but if you have a bias then you will probably reject the truth. I was not taught pre-Trib rapture and I was not taught post-Trib rapture. I was not even taught about the rapture, I'd never heard of it before becoming a Christian; so I had no pre-conceived ideas and no bias. I simply studied scripture, and discovered that there was a rapture but no pre-Trib rapture.

Why even bring it up? Because that's the question the OP asked!

Adultery was never a crime in most Christian nations, to my knowledge, even though the laws of Judeo-Christian countries were originally built on the laws of God, such as murder and stealing. The argument was that there was a need to balance free will and liberty, against morals. So legislation against such transgressions as murder and theft were seen as necessary otherwise society would fall apart in a very short time. Adultery was seen as more of a personal choice, although the courts would legislate against it indirectly by making the guilty party suffer the most, in for example, divorce cases. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that the real reason adultery was not deemed to be a criminal offence was because even the legislators were at it. How many kings, prime ministers, lords, and so on... have had mistresses? Many, no doubt. It's probably hypocrisy that has made adultery a minor offence, or not even an offence at all. Of course, today things are even worse. The courts don't even seem to punish the guilty party when marital civil issues occur. In fact, settlements are based upon other things, such as the personal income of each party, and in many cases there is strong favouritism towards the woman, even if she is the one that cheated. I know of a number of cases where the wife cheated and the husband didn't, yet she still got half the house, forcing the man to lose thousands and move out of his home into a smaller place. Then of course, adultery is not even an issue these days as many people are choosing not to marry, and you can't commit adultery if marriage is not involved. However, I must point out that although single people having sex with other single people may not be adulterous, it is still fornication, and is therefore still a sin!

God loves us because he created us. He knows that we are not entirely to blame for our wickedness but are all screwed up due to the 'fall' and due to persistent temptations and corruption by Satan. That doesn't mean that we aren't responsible for our actions because we still have free will and our transgressions are worthy of punishment. But God loves us because he knows that if we choose to let him heal us, then we shall no longer be wicked. He has big plans for all of us.

Who knows if he actually ate meat or not? But he didn't disapprove of anyone eating meat. He knew that the people kept flocks of livestock, which presumably weren't kept for anything else other than food (unless some Jews liked having lots of pets!). He also attended wedding feasts where meat was on the menu. Unless he said to the host "no thanks I'm on a diet" and ate nothing at all, or said "no thanks I'm vegetarian" and ate everything but meat, then we can only assume that he was a meat-eater. But we can't say for certain either way!