inchrist

He's 100% correct the church will be surprised according to pretrib Christ is only concerned with the Jews to keep watch and since matthew 13:35 is quoting the olivet discourse it is only concerned with Jews.

Therefore the doctrine of imminence is concerned with the jews and not the church And since Paul is quoting the Olivet discourse verbatim in 1 th 5 he is concerned with the jews and not the church

Nope? You just stated Matthew 24 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f]but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. 45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant,whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The doctrine of imminence is then for the jews. And the following is not for the church since Paul is quoting the Olivet discourse verbatim 1 th 5 The Day of the Lord 5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape

Then youre doctrine of imminence is for the jews But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son...So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. By the way here goes your pre trib rapture completely out the window Mat 12:29 "Or else how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

trumpet call of God are you telling me the angel in Rev 11:15 blowing the trumpet is not the trumpet call of God who they calling for then or on behalf of then?

This is not Exegesis, For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call Please provide scriptures showing this literal event in order to determine 1 th 4 to be different to that of Rev 20

Really...ok let's start basics....do I have a trumpet in Rev 11:12 - rev 11:18?

Read from rev:11:12 - rev 11:18 refutes your interpretation

I'm afraid you got no choice, Pre tribs doctrine is the manipulation of scripture of the living saints to be raptured amongst the dead in Christ. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection Even grammatically you can not manipulate first the dead in Christ will rise with this statement first resurrection first the dead in christ/first ressurection. They are one and the same phrases Pretrib is a false doctrine of the living saints to be raptured inbetween the dead in Christ.

Provide scripture it doesn't..... Christ taught something very interesting to the Pharisees 55And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It will be hot,’ and it is. 56You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and sky.Why don’t you know how to interpretthe present time? 57And why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right You cant interpret the times, you can't interpret the ressurection, or Christ coming, or the trumpet....because you have none of it in your pre trib doctrine If I ask you where is it, you can't show me. However the time of the dead at a trumpet from Rev 11:12 all the way to Rev 11:18 are being ressurected and judged. Interpreting the times.

Really they didn't die in Christ? Resurrected At a trumpet? With Christ in the picture? Also judging the dead at a rev 11:18 trumpet? A whole lot of things happening to the dead at a trumpet With Christ in the picture.... Tell me where's your literal trumpet? And literal Christ? And literal resurrection?

Yes it's very easy to understand Rev 11 a literal ressurection, with ACTUAL Christ, let that sink it After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. at a trumpet, a literal trumpet. You have nothing, you have no literal resurrection, no Christ and no literal trumpet...you have fantasy... None of what you state here is found in scripture That is different than in Rev. 20: 4-6 where only the Tribulation believers, those who got saved during the Tribulation but were martyred or otherwise died in Christ will be raised. You have no scripture stating there's a difference in some make belief two part first ressurection. You have no starting point for your ressurection to even determine when a difference between one dead Christian against another dead Christian, because you can't even determine any literal ressurection or trumpet as your starting point.

Which goes beyond your pretrib....because the last people to die recorded in scripture are the two witnesses.....the dead in Christ shall rise first.... You pre tribs are not special to be raptured inbetween the dead.

One lie with another lie....

No you don't, Dead is an adjective, has no classification for example....this dead Christian and that dead Christian.... Poor is another adjective there is no difference between this poor white person and that poor black person. You are declassifying beyond what is in scripture of a separation between this dead Christian and that dead Christian.... You are manipulating scriptures to squeeze in the living amongst the dead to rapture inbetween dead christians After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. You are grossly misinformed.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God These are not the same people as For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first When it states the dead in Christ rise first But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection Twice mentions first resurrection In Rev 20 in Christ will rise first ..... Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection in Christ will rise first But somehow Those are not the same event. We must "bother to read both passages. " Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection in Christ will rise first ......Ok then....not the same people??? Sure

You did any Christian who is not a pretrib hates the blessed hope, by such remark, you've lowered all other Christians

Pretrib is now the doctrine of salvation

If one accepts pretrib you're a true believer is what your saying Correct .... all true believers accept the Lord's admonition Sorry my blessed hope doesn't lie in a doctrine called pretrib

Interesting you mentioned that This was a response to you Pretrib is the blessed hope, not only are we not true believers we hate the blessed hope also. The very heart of a cult is a social group with socially deviant or novel beliefs and practices. In this case religious deviants. Our blessed hope is not the pretrib doctrine. Pretribs are not the only member of the body of CHRIST 1 cor 12 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

John 14:16 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever That extra oil is the comforter John 14:17 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version the Spirit of truth The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you The foolish virgins are told to go buy the spirit of truth/ the comforter Proverbs 23:23 ► Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version Buy the truth .and do not sell it-- wisdom, instruction and insight as well

If one accepts pretrib you're a true believer is what your saying. I'm really starting to see how cultish pretrib has turned put to be.

As appose to what the rejection of God's laws?

Giving you love there, so true what you just stated

Lets just focus on Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. What you have done is repeated over and over the following..... I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God At the expense of ignoring over and over these people..... I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. Inbetween these people (those on thrones and those beheaded) is a conjuction AND Which is the action or an instance of two or more events or things occurring at the same point in time or space. John saw people on thrones given authority AND he saw those who have been beheaded. Because John saw 2 NOT 1 events or things occurring at the same time. He saw people on thrones given authority, and those people beheaded. Grammar plays a very important part in interpretation of scripture. John is not my issue, it is your interpretations that is the issue, you have no indication of the second Ressurection is that of the body of Christ.....your position is an unsupported statement which again comes at the expense of ignoring the following: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. Then we must conclude the Olivert discourse is for the end of the Millennium? After all Matthew 24 States the following: 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. And 2 Peter 3 states the following They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. Then Christ sign and coming is end of the millennium.... That line of thinking is incorrect because you know Christ comes before the millennium As you state: This is when He comes and wipes out all those who are marked with the mark of the beast. We also know, Let's see 6th seal and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind Theres the fig tree of Matthew 24, heavens passing away here Revelation 6:14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place Sounds like earth passing away here. Everything from 6th seal all the way to the end of the 7th bowl is complete and utter destruction of the earth, the earth is laid bear. Now, could it be heavens and earth is removed multiple times? A recurring prophecy that has it's finality at the second Ressurection at the end of the 1000 yrs....that is the difference between western theology and Hebrew theology....in Hebrew theology prophecy re occurs until it's final fulfilment. That's what it states in scripture The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever. That's what Christ taught Luke 19:15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. And.that's when Christ comes for his second bride.... Yom Kippur (atonement) Here's his second bride Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced I would suggest study Jacob, Leah and Rachel, then I would suggest study the prodigal son. Who says they die in the midst of the bowls of wrath....find me any scriptures showing any Christians being killed in the bowls of wrath