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Persuaded last won the day on July 11 2014

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  1. Holy Humor

    A minister is attending a pastor's conference. He walks into the big room, and sees lots of big round tables with eight seats around each. He finds a table with empty seats, and asks the other pastors at the table if the empty seats are saved? One pastor replies, "Nope, they're not even under conviction!"
  2. Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

    E, Your post is all over the place, so I won't quote it. It must be understood is that no one, not anybody, that is judged by their works, will escape damnation. This is not the bema seat where rewards are handed out- it's the judgment throne, where sentence is given for failure to accept Christ's redemption. There's nothing confusing about the timing of Dan 12:1 for me to explain to help you understand that it is the trib. Sheesh, Jesus even quotes the verse in Mat 24 to describe the trib. There's no room in 12:1 to go looking for other verses to re-interpret it. "Faith in What", you ask. Well Paul tells us the gospel was preached before to Abraham. Gen 3:15 gives the first presentation of the gospel. The gospel is thoroughly presented by the time you get to Malachi. Hebrews 11 lists a pretty long list of OT folks whose faith saved them. Rom 4 shows that the Law saved no one. A snippet, but the whole chapter is worth reading: [Rom 4:13-15 NKJV] For the promise that he would be the heir of the world [was] not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law [are] heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law [there is] no transgression. The names of church Christians are in the book of life. Yet we don't have to wait until the end of the mil to be resurrected. In the exact same way, other groups (OT saints, trib converts) whose names are in the book of life will be resurrected based upon the Lamb's knowledge of the list. Where is Moses now? Mat 17 shows that he isn't in the ground waiting for the GWT. I'm not sure why you're going on about the replacement stuff- I haven't said anything to suggest it. I think Israel will get a big enough bellyful of trouble from the trib, and don't see her role there as somehow also requiring her to wait until after the mil to be put to a test that no one can pass.
  3. Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

    E, your point 4 ignores the clear meaning of Dan 12, to substitute the timing from Rev. -when were names written in the book? -before the foundation of the world. -does any saved group have to wait until post-mil to find out if their names are in the book? -clearly God knows those names, and Dan 12 refers to this: "and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Doesn't say the book is opened, just like it isn't opened for you. The "at that time" phrase here is clearly trib timing, and saying otherwise based on some loose assumptions as to how this fits in somewhere else does real harm to your understanding. Doctrinally, it's important to understand that the only path to heaven has always been, will always be by grace through faith. The OT saints are no different. Don't rewrite doctrine to fit an eschatology scheme! Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. Paul is saying here, and throughout this passage, that the purpose of the law was to expose their inadequacy to keep it, and thus the need for a redeemer. OT saints were required to have faith in anticipation of the Messiah; we get the benefit of believing in the fact of the Messiah.
  4. Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

    I'm comfortable that this is easily refuted, and has been recently, (simply, adulterous pregnant wife does not equal virgin bride). I'll address something further up the thread... Everybody is/will be subject either to the first resurrection or the second death. The second death is for "the dead" who are brought before the GWT and judged "by their works". Scripture is clear that this is a 0% option, since all have sinned and the wages of sin is death. This is closer to a sentencing than a trial, or in olde west speak "they'll be given a fair trial and then theyll be hanged". No OT prophets, no pillars of faith past or present can withstand God's inspection. But they don't need to... Will Moses and Elijah be subject to the second death? -clearly not! Indeed Mat 17 places them in heaven, already (probably, but certainly after Christ's resurrection). So if they aren't subject to the second death, the only other category is the first resurrection. And that's what many casual readers miss- the first resurrection is a category, not an event. Part of our misconception comes from the clumsy way that Greek "protos" is handled in English as "first". Paralleling the lofty position of the heir (usually the firstborn), the word protos carries the same idea of honor, best, chiefest. The first resurrection certainly comes before the second death timewise, but it also vastly exceeds it in quality or character. The first resurrection has been available since at least the cross, through today, and through the trib. All who are in Christ are not subject to death, and don't meet the criteria for the GWT, being the resurrection of "the dead" (another category you want no part of!)
  5. Is the Rapture Biblical?

    Angels aren't redeemed (5:10, and yes it's 'us' and 'we'! 'Them' and 'you' is one of Westcott/Hort's mutilations of scripture) Side note: the angels always "say"; only humans "sing". Music seems to be a form of worship reserved for us. -which I ruefully notice, being somewhat musically challenged myself...
  6. A different halloween tale

    I've had this squirreled away on my computer for a while, from I-don't-remember-what newsletter. Without promoting all of his doctrines, my respect for this guy grew a bunch when I first read this, and his commentary on Galatians remains quite excellent today. A DIFFERENT KIND OF HALLOWEEN TALE In the year 1483 in Eisleben, Saxony, a baby boy was born to a poor coal miner. As he grew up and observed the poverty of his father, this boy, Martin, chose to pursue a different vocation. He decided to become a lawyer and, in 1501, entered the University of Erfurt, where he excelled in his studies. As he came to the end of his schooling in 1504, an event took place which changed his life. While he was walking the campus grounds, a storm broke so forcefully that Martin fell on his face in fear. The thunder was deafening and lightning struck all around him. Instinctively, he cried out to the patron saint of coal miners, whose name he had heard invoked during his childhood, “Saint Anne! Save me from the lightning. If you save me I will become a monk.” Shortly thereafter the storm stopped. Being a man of his word, Martin withdrew from law school and entered an Augustinian monastery where he applied himself so diligently that he obtained a Doctorate of Theology within a few years. But the more he studied, the more troubled his heart became; for although he was becoming an expert in theology, he lacked peace personally. The question he repeatedly wrote in his diary was: “How can a man find favor with God?” In search of such peace, Martin devoted himself to an exceedingly pious life-style. He would fast for ten to fifteen days at a time. When temperatures dropped below freezing, he slept outside without a blanket. Between his studies, he beat his body until it was black and blue and bleeding-hoping that somehow by punishing his flesh, he could rid himself of the thoughts and motives that he knew were not right (these were typical practices of the medieval church). He went to confession so many times a day that finally the abbot said, “Martin, either go out and commit a sin worth confessing or stop coming here so often!” Martin was so introspective and continually plagued by what he knew of his own depravity and sinfulness that once, while sitting at his desk writing theology, he felt the presence of Satan so tangibly that he grabbed a bottle of ink and hurled it across the room to where he thought the devil was standing. The bottle crashed against the wall and left a mark that can still be seen today. Finally, in 1509, Martin decided to make a pilgrimage to Rome in hope of finding the elusive peace for which he longed. He set out on foot and crossed the Alps. On his descent, he almost died of a high fever before making his way to a monastery at the foot of the mountains. There the Brothers nursed him back to health. While there, a wise monk approached him and said, “You need to read the Book of Habakkuk.” And so Martin did just that. He read Habakkuk. It was a good suggestion. Habakkuk was a struggler just like Martin, and like us today: If God is good, why does He allow suffering? If there really is a devil, why doesn’t God just obliterate him? (When we throw out questions, we then plunge into our personal pursuits-and wonder why we don’t get answers.) One verse captured Martin’s imagination: Habakkuk 2:4. “The just shall live by faith.” He couldn’t get it out of his mind. Having recovered sufficiently to continue his journey to Rome, he went to the Church of St. John’s Lateran, a typical cathedral of that day. There is a staircase there that is said to be from Pilate’s judgment hall. The existing stairs are four parts: the special inner two are said to have been transported there miraculously from Jerusalem. The outer two are ordinary. The inner steps are not walked on. Here pilgrims mount painfully on their knees, a step at a time, saying prayers as they go. The pope had promised an indulgence to all who would undergo this rite. As Martin repeated his prayers on the Lateran staircase, Habakkuk 2:4 suddenly came into his mind: “the just shall live by faith.” He ceased his prayers, returned to the University of Wittenberg, and went on to explore the revolutionary idea of “justification by faith.” And with great deliberation, on October 31, 1517, Martin drove a stake into the heart of the prevailing pagan concepts by nailing his famous 95 Theses to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany, and started the movement known today as the Reformation. Appropriately, he did this on October 31st. His name, of course, was Martin Luther. The church leadership didn’t like the implications of his views and ultimately, at the Diet (council) of Worms (a town) they excommunicated him as a heretic. He went on to write commentaries that are classics today; hymns like, “A Mighty Fortress is our God”; and translated the entire Bible into German, a classic which remains the literary masterpiece in the Germanic tongue.
  7. Woman , Man Child, dragon

    The woman and child as Israel and Jesus are safe answers, but the text seems to imply a broader scope to the scene. First, the woman's description makes her a model of Israel- the symbols by which she is represented have a much broader historical sweep, going back at least as far as Jacob. And she "being" (present active participle) with child seems to be an expansive phrase, like it is a condition she has always had; this is her definition, more than a temporary condition. Thus her beginning is with the promise in Genesis 3:15, that through her would come "the seed of the woman". Since Eve fits this part of the description of the woman in Rev 12, and there is a sense that Israel's roots go back to Eve in a way that ours don't- the genealogies all trace the redemptive line and "funnel" toward Israel, and the kings, and Jesus- so I see this woman in Rev 12 as Israel for sure, but also the redemptive line. The description of the dragon similarly has a broader historical sweep- he is presented as the one who rebelled in heaven. This is before Genesis 1:2 timeframe, so "from the beginning" as far as humans are concerned. Lastly is the evidence of the dragon focussing on the line of redemption through Israel's history. Each time a promise is made that channels the line through a certain person, that person or their offspring seem to be singled out for special persecution, and each time God preserves a remnant. Israel's history is a fascinating tale in this regard, as God is always one step ahead and uses the wildest mechanisms to preserve His plan, and thwart Satan's schemes. The dragon has been trying to devour "the child" since Eve, and in this way anti-semitism shows it real roots.
  8. Woman , Man Child, dragon

    so is sun stars used Bible
  9. Woman , Man Child, dragon

    It's a vision. It is a graphic way to tie the elements of Joseph's dream to the situation that John is seeing. To speculate further: The woman of Rev 12 stands on/is supported by/is rooted upon/grows out of the "moon" of Joseph's dream, which is clearly Joseph's mother. Clothed with the sun, again against the backdrop of Joseph's dream, would seem to suggest the authority or house of Jacob. A lord's authority was often expressed in his robe. The embroidery of the hem could be impressed onto a clay tablet as his "signature", etc. Those under a lord's authority are said to be under his hem (Ruth 3:9). The crown of twelve stars is pretty obviously the twelve tribes or twelve sons of Jacob. The woman of Rev 12 has these sons as her crown, her crowning achievement, her signature characteristic, the thing she most proudly displays.
  10. Is the Rapture Biblical?

    Yowza- read to the end of ch14- if that's the rapture I'd say "no thanks!" This reaping sounds more like Mat 13:30, the tares.
  11. Woman , Man Child, dragon

    Genesis 37:9 (NKJV) 9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." Genesis 37:10 (NKJV) 10 So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?" The woman is Israel, in the sense that she, through the generations, has been the line through which the "seed of the woman" of Gen 3 would be brought forth. She is Israel, in the sense that she begins with Eve. Fleeing to the wilderness here is analogous to Mat 24:16, those in Judea fleeing for the mountains. Between v5 and 6 is an example of the "church gap", where scripture that deals with Israel seems to move straight past "us", and continue the thought as though our time didn't happen. I don't get "what is meant by 1260 days"? -It means 1260 days, or 42 months, etc. What is ambiguous here?
  12. The devil continues

    Yes, correct, but they ARE bound by time. The future is unfolding for them as it is for us.
  13. Be still?

    This is such a difficult lesson! Abraham was promised a son, waited (was "still") for ten years, then took matters into his own hands and used Hagar to create Isnmael. God didn't accept this effort, and Abraham had to "be still" for 13 more years until Isaac was given. We ALL build Ishmaels in our lives! At the Cana wedding, the servants obeyed by filling the water pots, but Jesus did the "work" of turning it to wine. God's work is never the result of our work, but of our obedience. Some are called to work pretty hard! Paul "wore out the shoe leather" in his ministry. But I've often wondered if his fateful return to Jerusalem was his own plan while God was telling him to be still and continue his gentile ministry. That might be a sticky subject to discuss with him in heaven!
  14. Where did the Native Americans come from?

    There aren't ten "lost" tribes. This is a silly myth, easily refuted from scripture.