Judith

I disagree, Christ's gathering of His Church is not until the 7th trumpet, 7th vial, and 6/7th seals. And that's also when the two houses of Israel will be put back together in the holy lands also, with David as prince, and Christ Jesus as King (Ezek.37). The final event of this present world is the Day of The Lord with His coming and the pouring out of God's wrath upon the earth, ending the tribulation time. That's the day we are gathered to Him also, and not before. Hi again - It's okay to disagree. That doesn't change the fact that I'm right!!! Just kidding! Anyway, we can still have fellowship with one another even with our disagreements. That's an important fact to remember. I'll close by saying.........soon and very soon we are going to see the Lord. Exciting times for sure!

Hello Salty - I'm sorry, I didn't word that explanation very well. I'll try again. As I understand that scripture verse, "all the events of the end of the world", as you stated, is the outcome involving the "mystery of God" which was declared in the prophetic scriptures of the Bible. This aspect of the "mystery of God" was accomplished. The full "accomplishment" involves the direct, fully divine intervention of God to complete His purpose according to His eternal plan - which plan, prior to the initiation of all that is to be "accomplished" had been foretold but awaiting His perfect timing for the fullfillment. Now, having said the above, my question is this - how can it be a mystery when it was "foretold", and when we have all the prophetic scriptures to enlighten our understanding and give us revelation as to end times? By now, this time in history, by having rightly dividing the word of truth, we can understand these aspects of the "mystery of God". Am I correct in this? The "mystery of God" is accomplished, but still a mystery as to our complete understanding of it. That's why "pages and pages" can be written. "For now we know in part, but we shall know as we are known". Blessings, Judith I agree, that God has His times to reveal that "mystery" to His people, and actually a lot of the time on an individual basis to those one's called to be an Apostle, and only when they are called (like Apostle Paul's example especially). But that Rev.10 Scripture in relation to His OT prophets and that "mystery" shows us that He gave them to write by The Holy Spirit the events of His Plan of Salvation all the way to the end of this world. So did Apostle Paul give us something new when he was using the word "mystery"? Actually no, because He taught from the OT Scripture when speaking of such matters. The difference is that many were not given to understand what those Scriptures were about yet, especially not until Christ died on the cross. But the info was already written back then, and has been there all along, which is what Rev.10 is revealing (John 5:39). Often now when I study OT Scripture I can see inklings that God made some of His people aware of His Plan early on, especially with Abraham (Heb.11; Gal.3; John 8). Hi Salty - Rev. 10 is revealing certain aspects of the prophetic scriptures. But by rightly dividing the word of truth, we can understand that prior to this portion of fullfillment, the fullfillment of the Rapture had already occurred, just like the fullfillment of Israel's return to their land had already occurred, not to forget the most important of all - Jesus coming to earth, sacrificing His life for our sins. The list can go on and on.

Hello Salty - I'm sorry, I didn't word that explanation very well. I'll try again. As I understand that scripture verse, "all the events of the end of the world", as you stated, is the outcome involving the "mystery of God" which was declared in the prophetic scriptures of the Bible. This aspect of the "mystery of God" was accomplished. The full "accomplishment" involves the direct, fully divine intervention of God to complete His purpose according to His eternal plan - which plan, prior to the initiation of all that is to be "accomplished" had been foretold but awaiting His perfect timing for the fullfillment. Now, having said the above, my question is this - how can it be a mystery when it was "foretold", and when we have all the prophetic scriptures to enlighten our understanding and give us revelation as to end times? By now, this time in history, by having rightly dividing the word of truth, we can understand these aspects of the "mystery of God". Am I correct in this? The "mystery of God" is accomplished, but still a mystery as to our complete understanding of it. That's why "pages and pages" can be written. "For now we know in part, but we shall know as we are known". Blessings, Judith

Hello again Judith, I just wanted to point this out to you, and if you could please explain then how this piece fits with your scenario. Revelation 10:5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” When the 7th trumpet is about to sound, the mystery of God will be accomplished. God bless you. Hello Wingnut - In a nutshell - the "Mystery of God" will be the culmination of God's plan and purpose for His creation - especially direct divine intervention in the affairs of earth, whereas God by His grace has given mankind approx. 6,000 yrs. to mess things up, it's now God's time to end the mystery of lawlessness/iniquity and all the other mysteries of God pertaining to the whys and why nots that we , in our humanity and not understanding the mysteries, make inquiry. It will end in judgment and the establishment of His Kingdom here on earth. Pages and pages could be written on this very topic, but I'm not skilled nor equipped to elaborate any further - it's still in a large part a MYSTERY!!

I haven't seen this one, but apologize if I'm repeating this typology. It's amazing! Regarding the number 666 and the Rapture of the church - another typology in the O.T.? I just made this discovery........ In the book of Joshua chapter 6 verse 6 - i.e. the 6th book, the 6th chapter and the 6 verse which reads: "And Joshua, the son of Nun called the priests, and said unto them, Take up the ark of the covenant, and let seven priests bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark of the Lord". Question: Does this symbolize the number of the Beast in Revelations and the 7 Trumpet judgments? Then, another verse, one which preceeds verse 6: "And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye shall hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him." What's interesting is if the mark of the beast is symbolized here it comes AFTER the sound of the trumpet and the ascending up of every man. Does this represent in symbolism the RAPTURE before the TRIBULATION? There's more........ Rahab the harlot is saved. While Joshua serves as a type of Christ who saves Israel is Rahab possibly a type of the believing Jews during the Tribulation? Joshua 6:25 - " and Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive." God calls Israel a "Harlot" in Jeremiah 3:6-8, and Israel i referred to as a "woman". Rev. 12:14 "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, times, and half a time from the face of the serpent." Their complete deliverance comes with the sound of the 7th trumpet. Joshua 6:16 "and it came to pass at the seventh time when the priests blew the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, "Shout", for the Lord hath given you the city". Joshua 6:22 - "But Joshua had said unto the two men that had spied out the country, go into the harlot's house, and bring out thence the woman and all that she hath, a ye swear unto her." The walls were compassed for 7 days and the Harlot was saved. Could the "two men" be types of the "two witnessess" in Revelations? .

Excellent point Marilyn. As I said before, the appointed times pertains to Israel, Gentiles, and the Church (the Body of Christ). The distinction between the two comings of Jesus is taught in the Bible. The 2nd coming and the establishment of His Kingdom was known prior to when the Church was established. Therefore, Jesus is speaking of His coming to establish the Kingdom whereas the Rapture is a mystery that wasn't known until the Apostle Paul revealed the catching away of the Body of Christ. Recall Paul's words......."I show you a mystery". There was no mystery regarding the 2nd coming which was well documented in the O.T. Blessings, Judith

You're right - men have caused confusion over God's word. It really makes it difficult for new-comers - doesn't it? One important reminder we have in God's word is to "rightly divide the word of truth". By that we should be careful not to establish doctrines upon one or two scripture verses. When the foundation isn't laid correctly, all sorts of wrong doctrines begin to appear. As I stated before, I see that understanding the divisions of Israel and the Church to be necessary in order to obtain a correct understanding of end time events - especially with the doctrines of the Rapture and Tribulation. Blessing, Judith

Hello Wingnut - I can't respond to all that you wrote at this time as it will take me awhile to do so, and this isn't a good time for me. But I thought I could reply piece-meal - if that's okay. I'll start with the following and hopefully be able to write more at a later time. Wingnut stated the following: "If I understand you correctly, we agree that the bride consists of all believers, both Jew and Gentile. The separation or division you suggest exists is also contrary to scripture. Matthew 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. Mark 3:25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: “Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. Make no mistake, any attempt to separate or draw distinctions between the two is dividing. In two of the three verses above, Jesus denotes "every kingdom" and "any kingdom", this would include His kingdom." My reply - The Mat. 12:25 verse that you quote, when taken in it's full context has to do with the "unpardonable sin" and has nothing, and does not contradict the teaching of the distinctions between the Church and Israel. Also, it does not apply to your belief that by teaching the distinctions brings division to the Kingdom. This is my understanding of the chapter. The Kingdom age will consist of Israel, Gentiles, and the Church, however, each in their own place with distinctive purposes. These distinctions don't equate to the "division" or "dividing of the Kingdom" that you speak of. Our home consists of a Father, Mother. children and a dog - each with a different purpose and place in the home. There is an owner of the property and on the property is a house which consists of a roof, a floor, walls, doors and windows. Along with the house is a garage and yard. Each has a distinctive purpose - some a part of the house and some outside the house yet belonging to the one owner of the house but not dividing the house from the owner. Likewise with the Church, Israel and Gentiles. We still have a Kingdom but with different players and purpose yet all a part of the same Kingdom and owner/ruler of that Kingdom. The Kingdom is still standing and has suffered none of the effects you describe. The distinctions are part of the divisions that God ordained from the beginning and don't violate scripture as you so indicated. Note that dividing does not always mean destruction. We are told to "rightly divide the word of truth" and by doing so we can conclude that there is a class distinction or division between Israel and the Church - and does not imply that the House/Kingdom is left not "standing" as you state.. Wingnut said the following - "Was Jesus not part of the promise God had with Israel in the old covenant? From His birth, to His ministry, to His death, to His resurrection, and what is still to come. God's plan has never changed, God does not change. He does not need to, He knew the end from the beginning, correct? So, when God says any of these things; "His children", "His people", "His chosen ones", "His elect".....He is always addressing the same people. He knew us before we were conceived. He knows His sheep, and His sheep know Him. Ethnicity is not a factor to God, this separation you suggest is coming from man's understanding." My reply - You mention God's "children"; God's "people"; God's "chosen"; God's "elect". These classifications are equally true for Israel and the Church with differing purposes and times for specific events such as the Rapture (for the church) and the Tribulation (for Israel). This is the best I can do for now. Hope this reply is satisfactory with an adequate explanation. Blessings, Judith

Hello everyone. There are really some excellent responses to this thread. Thought I'd add my comments which I will leave for your determination as to whether or not there is evidence here for a pre-trib. rapture. The 6th dispensation which is where we are presently, is actively involved and fixed upon the Jew, the Gentile and the Church of God. Each of the three has a distinctive purpose in the eternal plan of God. For the Jew exists the promises of God for a restored Israel at the 2nd coming of Christ to establish His Kingdom. For the Jew and the Gentile, exists the calling of God to enter into His eternal rest by receiving the gift of eternal life through His son Jesus Christ. The church then consists of both Jew and Gentile believers who have been born again and received Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Unlike Israel, however, whose promise to be restored upon the 2nd coming of Jesus when He establishes his Kingdom, the Church, separated and distinguished apart from Israel, has as her fulfillment the promise of a new home in heaven where Jesus is actively building mansions for his bride. The Church isn't in need of restoration but is complete in God through Christ. Her primary function is to be witnesses to the work of Christ and bring the salvation message to the world. The completion of her work will end before the Tribulation, since this is the Time of Jacob's Trouble - Jacob being Israel. This is when Israel will begin her testimony of the work of Jesus Christ and they will finally fullfill the mission they were meant to do during the earthly walk of Jesus - that is to proclaim Him as King of King and Lord of Lords. The salvation message will begin with the two Jewish witnessess along with the 144,000 called out Jewish believers. This is my understanding of scripture. I see that understanding the divisions of Israel and the Church to be necessary in order to obtain a correct understanding of end time events. God bless, Judith

I'd like to reply further by explaining that in Mat. 12:31 Jesus was performing miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees, while witnessing these miracles, attributed Jesus' power to Beelzebub - in other words claiming that Jesus' was possessed by a demon. The blasphemy then would be accusing Jesus of being demon possessed - while being face to face when Jesus was on earth - in person. Since the miracles were by the power of the Holy Spirit - and because they rejected the truth and claimed the power was from Beelzebub, they sinned against the Holy Spirit. This sin cannot be repeated today IMO. The only unpardonable sin today is the continual rejecting of the saving power of salvation that comes through receiving Jesus as personal savior. There is a sin unto death - physical death as mentioned in James. I believe this is probably the correct interpretation of the Sin against the Holy Spirit. It does make sense - to me anyway. God bless, Judith

Hello Faith - You are right about "no one knows the day or the hour" with any absolute authority. Understanding what that verse means exactly is essential. To be watching and looking up -especially "as we see the day approaching", is not a suggestion, its a command and one we should take seriously. One thing is for sure, in light of the present prophetic fulfillments there is every indication that His coming is near. Speculating as to POSSIBILITIES is not forbidden. There is harm that comes from date setting, but watching and hoping for the glorious return of Jesus for His bride and stating that such and such a date as a POSSIBILITY is entirely different. Jesus can come any moment and we should be attentive to that fact as the Rapture is imminient. It's a sad fact that too many christians are disinterested in any study of end-times prophecy and the soon return of Jesus. Recall that there is a special reward for those who are waiting and watching - according to scripture. You are also right about the study being "complex". It is a study, however, and requires time to examine its' contents in order to evaluate it fairly.

"MOSES, JESUS, AND THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH" "Fair Use for Information and Discussion Purposes" http://gracethrufaith.com/childrens-stories-for-adults/moses-jesus-and-the-rapture-of-the-church/ "The Law is only a Shadow of the Good Things that are Coming. A model of the Rapture in Exodus. For the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ (John 1:17). In the Old Testament there are numerous models of the Messiah, and in this way the priests and prophets came to understand something of His Nature. The increased knowledge resulting from Messiah’s actual visitation raised by magnitudes the importance of these Old Testament models. New Testament students who ignore the Old often come away with a view of Jesus barely sufficient to address the problems confronting us today; a sandal-shod social worker who walked the shores of Galilee patting little children on the head and advising everyone to turn the other cheek. The real Jesus leaps off the pages of the Old Testament through the various Models of the Messiah with power and authority. MOSES AND THE MESSIAH Moses not only acted out several of these models in events like the smitten rock (Exodus 17 & Numbers 20) and the bronze serpent (Numbers 21:4-9 & John 3:14), he actually was one. In addition to the parallels between the beginnings of the Dispensation of the Law and the Dispensation of Grace, the similar manner in which these two leaders came into the world is also striking. Both mothers received supernatural indications that their yet unborn children would redeem their people. Both children were in mortal danger at the moment of birth and both parents sought protection in Egypt. Both later left their place of refuge to assume leadership of their people. As Moses spent 40 years in the desert of Midian, Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness of Judea. As Moses led his people out of the bondage of Egypt into a new life in the Promised Land, Jesus will lead His people out of the bondage of sin into a new life in Heaven. As the people of Moses were protected in Goshen while the plagues of Exodus destroyed Egypt, the people of Jesus will be protected in Heaven as the plagues of Revelation destroy Earth. As Moses was the mediator for his people, bringing them into a covenant relationship with God, Jesus is the mediator for His people bringing them into a new and better covenant. As the people of Moses wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, the people of Jesus have wandered on the earth for 40 jubilees (a jubilee is a 50-year period). As the people of Moses were supernaturally fed and clothed physically during their sojourn in the wilderness (Deut 29:5 & Exodus 16), the people of Jesus have been supernaturally fed and clothed spiritually during their sojourn on Earth (John 6:35 & Isa 61:10). As Moses brought forth the Nation of Israel into their new life from the waters of the Red Sea, Jesus brings us forth into our new life from the waters of our baptism. As the law was given through Moses on the 6th day of Sivan (Feast of Shavuot in Hebrew) initiating the Dispensation of Law, the Holy Spirit was given through Jesus on the 6th day of Sivan (Feast of Pentecost in Greek) initiating the dispensation of Grace. As the Lord told Moses to consecrate his people and at the sound of the loud voice and trumpet go up to meet Him on the mountain top, He told Jesus to consecrate His people and at the sound of the loud voice and trumpet go up to meet Him in the air. MT. SINAI AND THE RAPTURE This is one of the most intriguing parallels between Moses and Jesus. I’ll list a few more similarities here to give you a better idea. The trumpet of God and an audible voice are present at both events and both events create a kingdom. At Mt. Sinai the Israelites were redeemed from slavery, at the Rapture we’re redeemed from sin. They were consecrated, we’re perfected. They washed their clothes, we’re given clean clothes. God came to the Mt. top, Jesus comes to the air. At Mt. Sinai Moses and Aaron went up, at the rapture we go up. At Mt. Sinai Israel was wed to God. At the Rapture the Church is wed to Jesus. At Mt. Sinai God dwelt with Israel and at the rapture the Church dwells with Jesus. (Compare Exodus 19:10-25 & 1 Thes 4:16-17. There is a view that when God sent the ram for Abraham to sacrifice instead of Isaac, He saved the two horns to be used as shofars. He blew the left one (the first trump) in Exodus 19 in preparation for the giving of the Law, and will blow the right one (the last trump) in 1 Thes. 4:16 to initiate the Rapture.) The Law is only a Shadow of the Good Things that are Coming (Hebr. 10:1) Since many Biblical models are necessarily incomplete, there are also some obvious differences. Only Moses and Aaron could ascend the mountain. Anyone else going up passed from life to death. At the rapture we all go up and everyone passes from death to life. God promised to dwell with Israel if they obeyed. We will dwell with Jesus because He obeyed. They changed themselves temporarily, He changes us permanently. Theirs was an event accompanied by great fear, ours is an event anticipated with great joy. After all Mt. Sinai was the presentation of God’s Law, and the Rapture is the manifestation of His grace. And now you know the adult version. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ See calendar study........ http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2014/judith727-1.htm Also........ http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2014/judith1019.htm In the calendar study I've shown specific dates that correspond to the EXODUS and the arrival at MT. SINAI. I will once again show these dates. They are as follows: Year of the EXODUS on the 360/day and 365.25/day calendar - MARCH 14/15, 2520 on 360/day = DECEMBER 24/25, 2483.8 on 365.25/day Crossed the RED SEA on the 3rd day on the 360/day and 365.2/day calendar - MARCH 17/18, 2520 on 360/day = DECEMBER 27/28, 2483.8 on 365.25/day NOTE: MARCH 17/18 is the same date Jesus rose again - the RESURRECTION. Arrival at MT. SINAI on 360/day and the 365.25/day calendar - MAY 14/15, 2520 on 360/day = FEBRUARY 22/23, 2483.8 on 365.25/day Using the same calculations with the 360/day and 365.25/day count on our current calendar, from the calendar study, today's current, present day calculations are as follows - Our current DECEMBER 24/25, 6197 (or 2014) on the 365.25/day (same date as the EXODUS) = MAY 14/15, 6288 on the 360/day (same date they arrived MT. SINAI). Coincidence? Then, adding the three days for when they crossed the RED SEA = DECEMBER 27/28, 6197 (or 2014)on the 365.25/day = MAY 17/18, 6288 (same date GOD CAME DOWN ON MT. SINAI which was the FIRST TRUMP). Coincidence? Could this years DECEMBER 27/28, 2014 possibly be what we've been anticipating and waiting for - the LAST TRUMP (RAPTURE)? I hope so. Keep looking up! Judith e-mail - sweetbyandbyx2@yahoo.com

The "unpardonable sin" is the ultimate and final rejection of Jesus Christ as Savior.

The bare essentials are so simple that even a child can understand - simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.