Last Daze

I'm not inferring that immortal beings "die". Evil spirit beings can be arrested and thrown into jail (the abyss) so as to effectively suppress their influence. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. Revelation 20:1-3 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. Revelation 20:7-8 This clearly supports evil spirit beings being cast into the abyss so as to not exert influence. It's scriptural. The abyss is a restrainer that restrains the influence that evil spirit beings have among men. The reason I say the prince of Rome was cast into the abyss is because when John penned Revelation, this statement was true. The beast that you saw was [and spawned Rome], and is not [cast into abyss], and is about to come up out of the abyss [to spawn the U.N.] and go to destruction. Revelation 17:8 As I see it, the reason Jesus' first words concerning the end times were "See to it that no one misleads you" is because the first seal releases the beast (and associates) from the abyss where they can go and deceive the nations. The restrainer is no longer restraining and the deception of wickedness permeates the world like we've seen in the past several decades and continue to see.

That's a fascinating bit to chew on there.

I understand where you, and everyone else, get the five kingdoms from. However, the prophecy only mentions four. That's the point I'm curious about. How does four become interpreted as five, scripturally? This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king. You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold. After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth. Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. Daniel 2:36-41 There is a clear delineation between these kingdoms as noted by the colored text. There is no such distinction that introduces a "fifth" kingdom. This prophecy views the feet of iron and clay as belonging to the fourth kingdom. The reason for this, in my estimation, is that the evil angel "prince of Rome" had his efforts interrupted by being cast into the abyss, probably during the first century, as the gospel went forth. An extension of life was given to Rome even after its dominion [prince] was removed (Daniel 7:12). At some point, this prince was to be released (Revelation 17:8), which I believe he has at the first seal, and continue his fourth kingdom, which is described as the feet of iron and clay. I bring this up here Spock because it demonstrates an important difference in perspective. From God's omniscient viewpoint, these kingdoms are brought about by four distinct "princes" (Daniel 10), each one having their own "kingdom". From our natural perspective, we see the fourth kingdom as having two distinct manifestations separated by time. It's the difference between seeing the cause (prince) and the effect (Rome & U.N.) I also see that as explaining why part of Daniel 8 is past and part is future. It's the same reason that part of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 2 is past and part of it is future. It's a matter of perspective, the eternal unseen and the temporary seen.

How do you support 5 when the prophecy only speaks of 4?

That's not what the passage says and I'm not just picking and choosing what I want for whatever. It never identifies the statue as representing the sum of all Gentile world governments. It identifies four specific kingdoms. Don't think literal / symbolic. Think natural / supernatural. Do you think those kingdoms just sprang up on their own? Who do you think their "princes" that are described in Daniel 10 are? While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18 Don't let "out of sight" be "out of mind". Sure, the material aspect of those kingdoms was temporal. That's where you need to look beyond the seen, temporal to the unseen, eternal. The supernatural aspect of those kingdoms is eternal. Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come. Daniel 10:20 You can't just ignore whatever you want for whatever.

I think the answer would also explain this passage: Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:35 "All at the same time". Hmmmm . . . . How's that possible from a strictly "natural" perspective?

It could be because we recently had a go-around on this topic.

He already has. And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve. Luke 22:3 I guess it depends on the circumstances.

Satan has already entered the son of perdition once, before Christ's crucifixion. I think he will enter him again. Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. Revelation 13:11 Hmmmm. Two horns.

What if find telling is that this same beast in Daniel 7 did not have seven heads. The seven heads are uniquely Satan's and represent his throne and authority (crowns on the seven heads). The fact that the Daniel 7 beast now has seven heads (without crowns) in Rev 13 is, in my view, attributable to the verse above when Satan gave him his power, throne and great authority. The new symbolism of the seven heads reflects that "transfer". It would also stand to reason that the symbolism of the other three beasts of Daniel 7 being seen in the Rev 13 beast are for the same reason. Then there's the question of "why?" Why would Satan ever give his power, throne, and great authority to anyone? Seeing how the beast from the earth (false prophet) speaks like a dragon and exalts himself above any object of worship, its likely for the reason of indwelling the false prophet and using him as a channel for displays of supernatural power (in the presence of the beast). Satan transfers his power, throne, and authority to the beast, enters the false prophet, then uses what he transferred to deceive the world into worshipping him. So, the short answer as to "why" is likely because entering a human has its limitations.

Wrong conclusion. Just didn't see the need to go over it yet again.

Oh, nevermind. Have a great life.

They're consecutive verses. Jesus' coming like a thief is after the armies gather. His exhortation is there for a reason. I wouldn't just dismiss it in an off-hand way.

That's the gist of it. It's the supernatural / natural connection, the cause / effect. The Bible seems to switch between them as if they were the same, i.e. talking about the king of Babylon then transitioning to Satan (Isaiah 14). The "tricky" part is knowing if and when to make the distinction concerning prophecy.

Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. It'll all work out the way it is supposed to.

The period of time between the 2nd and 3rd woe. Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.” And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon. Revelation 16:15-16 As the armies gather.

The multitude in Rev 7 are those who were martyred for refusing to worship the beast, not the sum total of the first resurrection.

I guess it depends on what you see as the global test.

Those who are Christ's, who sleep in the dust of the earth, along with those on earth who are alive at His coming make up the harvest of the earth. That passage is a parable, not a dissertation. It shows the reaping of the righteous when matured.

Those are two separate reapings as you have previously stated. Now you try to lump them together and stir them up so they both come out "wrath"? You've yet to substantiate the first reaping as having anything to do with wrath or judgment. Rightly divide. Don't mish-mash.

I see no mention of "judgments" anywhere in that passage. Please describe who is doing the judging, who is being judged, and what the judgment is otherwise your "judgment" claim baseless. Mark 4:26-29 clearly shows a "harvesting / reaping" of the righteous. See the post just before yours. The part you stated in red run contrary to scripture. Don't you understand that the rapture is comprised largely of resurrected saints and that those who are alive will not precede those who sleep? Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life. Daniel 12:2a Your explanation is unscriptural. I'll choose to believe what Daniel said. Those who awake to everlasting life are the harvest of the earth. They are saints.

I don't see anything in that passage that ties it to a reaping or clouds. That sounds like when Jesus returns to earth. More likely I think the first reaping in Revelation 14 is a reference to this: And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know. The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head. But when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.” Mark 4:26-29 The harvest of those who are Christ's - the resurrection / rapture.

I absolutely agree. Well put, Ezra. I admire your often requests for people to back up what they say with scripture so as to reduce the amount of speculation in these discussions. So, I find it odd that you not only give a free pass to the part in red but also absolutely agree with it. I have yet to see any scriptures that directly support it. I hear a lot of human reasoning that's designed to arrive at a desired outcome but nothing scriptural. The only support Ezra gives for the Great Tribulation being a time of God's judgment and wrath and not for the church is to shout it in ALL CAPS. So, I'm hoping that you can provide the scriptures that link the Great Tribulation to God's judgment and wrath. If you can't then why do you absolutely agree with it?

Don't forget about the resurrection / rapture event in Revelation 14. Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped. Revelation 14:14-16 This is a picture of Jesus in the clouds where we meet Him when raptured like it says in 1 Thessalonians 4. The angel crying with a loud voice could be the shout of the archangel as well. Looks like this period actually is for the church. If this passage isn't a reference to the resurrection / rapture then who is it talking about that is being reaped? It's not the ungodly because they are reaped in the verses that follow. This first reaping shows the church in Revelation. Once one understands the distinction between tribulation and judgment / wrath the fog is lifted and it becomes clear.

Hey RT, good to see you back. I agree that "the hour" of trial refers to a relatively brief span of time, contrasted with the term "one hour" which I see as closer to the 60 minute definition. Not adamant about that but at first glance it seems plausible. Those who are kept from the hour of testing, who are they? All believers? Believers who have attained a certain level of spirituality? It is those who keep the word of His perseverance. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 3:10 Those kept from the hour of testing are those who have kept the word of His perseverance. Who are those, in the end times, that keep the word of His perseverance? If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. Revelation 13:9-10 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:11-12 According to scripture, those who are kept from the hour of testing are those who have refused to take the mark or worship the beast. They will not be subjected to the hour of testing that will come upon the whole world.