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098

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098 last won the day on July 27 2014

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  1. The abomination is simply that the congregations no longer have Christ and his Spirit. This means that they are desolate, meaning without Christ. There is no special meaning beyond this. Matthew 24:23-26 is an excellent illustration of this. The people in the congregations say that they have Christ but do not, and are therefore false prophets. Similarly, there will be those saying I am anointed when they are not. These are false Christs. Matthew says to not pay attention to such foolishness but to simply believe it not. Incidentally, the carcass mentioned right after that is parable language for the dead body of the congregations spiritually speaking.
  2. 098

    Revelation 13

    Yes, that's the point of Romans 11. Exactly as you say, both Jews and non-Jews are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. That's what the chapter is about and it's entire point. What is doesn't actually go on to say is that then there is this special time later when all of political Israel suddenly is saved. People mistakenly get this notion from thinking that the word so means "then", when it really means in this manner. Both Jews and non-Jews are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. That's his covenant with all believers, though it is only a part of each of the two groups, Jews and non-Jews who are saved of course. There is no difference between the two groups in any way when God's salvation plan is seen. The verses from Luke 23 are typical of all verses in the Bible which talk of the fall of the congregations towards the end times. Daughters of Jerusalem does not mean political or cultural Jews. Jerusalem is a parable word for all persons in the congregations at that time. The people are saying to the Lord cover us. In other words they want Jesus to cover their sins. Mountains in the Bible are used to describe the Lord himself . Let those who are in Judaea flee to the mountains. As the mountains surround Jerusalem so the Lord surrounds his people.
  3. 098

    Revelation 13

    Yes, it is easy to read Romans 11 the way you say, and definitely many read it as you do. However, I invite you to look at the word "so" in verse 26: "And so all Israel will be saved". So does not mean what people read into it: And then all Israel will be saved. Rather, "so' means 'in this manner' or 'in this way'. In this manner all Israel will be saved. Simply refer to the preceeding verse to find out in what way. Verse 25 says ..."blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in". And that's where it ends. Nothing else happening. In other words, some of the political nation of Israel, the physical Jews, will be saved, like, for instance, the apostle Paul. The rest are not saved but blinded right up as the remaining Gentiles to be saved are to be saved. And that's it. Nothing more. And so (in this manner) will all Israel (spiritual Israel) be saved. The following verse even tells us that Jesus will come from heaven to turn sin from Jacob (the true believers by metaphor) according to the covenant he has with believers (his work on the cross and so forth). Just as he did to take away believers' sins.
  4. This discussion reminds me alot of how when Christ came they wanted him to be a political king or at least were expecting the Messiah to be a political king, but he told us his kingdom is not of this world, but a spiritual kingdom. Many persons posting have not yet realized that the Bible is written in parable form (Psalm 78:2). Israel in the Bible is not a political entity except in the Old Testament as an illustration for all true believers. True believers in Christ are now spiritual Israel, no matter what cultural or political affiliation. This whole business of end-time events relating to the current political nation of Israel in the Middle East has no scriptural basis any more than believing that true believers will be riding literal white horses or that Jesus is literally a stone. He is a stone only by metaphor to describe him. When Romans 11 tells us "And then all Israel will be saved" it means that all true believers will be saved, no matter where they live, or what culture or tongue or nation they are. I would be very happy if a lot of the Israel that is saved comes from the current political nation of Israel just as I would if many come from any other current political nation. But the scripture is not saying that all of the political nation of Israel will be saved. The key is knowing what the Bible means when it uses parable language, like Israel, Judah, and Jerusalem. These are terms which involve any believer and have nothing to do with current world geography. The "Jerusalem above" is a picture of those persons freed from the penalty of their sin because they have received what Christ did for them on the cross. The "Jerusalem below" is the religious unsaved who are trying to be justified by their own righteousness by saying they follow the law. They have never truly received Christ. This is the picture presented by Galatians 4. It has nothing to do with geographic Jerusalem, nor does any end-time scenario. In fact, the parable language used in the Bible (in places like Luke 21 for example) is really relating to end-time congregations. Such scriptures warn of a falling away from the truth of the gospel in end times, and tell the true believers to flee to Christ alone. In fact, in Luke 21 the Lord is pictured by mountains. "Let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains". In other words, let them which are in the fallen congregations, flee to the Lord himself, spiritually speaking.
  5. 098

    Revelation 13

    The important thing in reading the Bible is to think of it as presenting salvation for persons from all nations and tongues and races and so forth. Conversely, those who do not receive the gospel are an equally diverse group. Most all "Christian" congregations and denominations have doctrinal errors to say nothing of spiritual errors. Non-Christian religions do too. However, the Bible does not get so tied up and restricted as to assign political groups or religious groups special status. When the Bible says in Romans 11, "And so all Israel shall be saved" it means that all true believers will be saved. It is not talking about the political nation of Israel. It is talking about spiritual Israel, the true believers from all walks of life. Personally, I don't feel at one with any of the groups you mention, but I hope to still be a part of the group of saved persons that God knows.
  6. Hi. Thanks Salty. Fun to chat with you. Yes, we have different views. It seems many people have bought into the idea that there will be some sort a dashing wonder character called the Antichrist. I don't see any Biblical scripture that says that. The 'man of sin' is really a term that is sort of the opposite of the 'perfect man'. The body of Christ is being built up into a perfect man by God, with the whole body being a part of the man. One person is metaphorically the leg, another the arm, another the nose, Christ the head, and so forth as the analogy is presented. That the true believers are a part of the body of Christ is generally understood. What people fail to grasp, however, is that the 'man of sin' that is revealed follows this same pattern. The congregations become the man of sin when the Holy Spirit is no longer there, but it is simply a sinful or lost group of persons, rather than some wonder character. Ezekiel 8 that you mentioned simply follows the general theme of Ezekiel, which is to present the fact that the congregations fall out of favor with God as wickedness becomes them. As an Old Testament book, Ezekiel presents Judah (Jerusalem and Israel) as the case where this falling away from God occurs. However, like all Old Testament books, it is pointing to the same case that occurs relating to the church age later on, and specifically towards the end of that church age. The book is written for our benefit (present day Christians).The Old Testament uses parables to do this. Ezekiel's Judah is a picture of the fall of church age congregations.
  7. Hi. Thanks Salty. Yes, the Bible is written in parable fashion providing pictures of how things happen (Psalm 78:2), but the events are not the kind of politcal events or physical wars and so forth that people imagine. Jerusalem is no different. The Bible's Jerusalem is not pointing to a political entity like the physical city in the present-day nation of Israel. In fact, Biblical Jerusalem is a picture of the Jerusalem above and the Jerusalem below (Galatians 4). The Jerusalem above is simply the whole group of saved persons who have ever existed and will exist (they are free from their sin penalty thanks to Christ). The Jerusalem below is rather those persons who are religious but don't have Christ (who expect the law to save them by their own righteousness). They are still in bondage to their sins and are not set free from their sin, because they have never truly received what Christ did for them. When congregations are looked at by God towards the end of the church age, if you will, he finds that they are filled with doctrines and tendencies of men, built by men, if you will (Genesis 18:20-21). Yet God builds his own people as he wills. The abomination that causes desolation is simply men's ways and ideas and men's authority entering into congregations such that the congregations are desolate of Christ. In other words, Christ is not present. The congregations become desolate. That is why Rev. 18 says that Christ's voice is no longer heard there. The people no longer have the Holy Spirit and so cannot hear Christ's voice. There is no physical image or statue involved. They idea of an image has to do with this. Christ's true believers are being made into his image by God himself. Any other group of persons is a false image of Christ, not meaning a physical statue or anything like that. Just not made in the image of Christ, which is perhaps what you may be saying as well.
  8. 098

    Revelation 13

    Thanks for your question. The Holy Spirit never leaves the true believer, but in the congregations Satan reigns during the tribulation period. That is why 2 Thes 2:4 talks about Satan taking his seat in the temple of God and proclaims that he is God in the sense that he has authority there. The true believers who continue to have the Holy Spirit are rejected by the congregations. That is why the church at Philadelphia was comforted by God telling them they shall go out no more, because they have gone out of the congregations during the tribulation period. That is why Revelation 18 says that the true believers must come out of fallen Babylon, the great city, the congregations. Remember in 2 Thes 2:7 the one that restrains sin (that's the Holy Spirit) will be taken away from the congregations. It can never be taken away from the true believers. Consider how Joshua and his men marched around Jericho. Joshua is a picture of Christ, and his men of the true believers. They were not a part of Jericho that fell. Jericho had been the city of righteousness (city of palms) and it had formerly had salvation (walls). But the walls fall and salvation is not present there afterwards. Only Joshua (Jesus) and his own have salvation.
  9. Babylon is not a political city of some sort. It is the great city (Rev 18). Cities in the Bible are pictures of the people associated with God. They are spiritual entities more than anything. The people associated with God are divided into two types. The Jerusalem above (saved persons) and the Jerusalem below (unsaved persons). The great city is variously called Jerusalem, Egypt, Sodom, and Ninevah, among others. It is no different with Babylon.
  10. 098

    Revelation 13

    The lethal wound that was healed has the following meaning: Christ dealt a fatal blow to Satan on the cross. Satan could not stop anyone from getting saved. He had no authority over the Holy Spirit. When God withdraws the Holy Spirit from the congregations during the tribulation period, Satan again can decieve people in that arena. There is no Holy Spirit or salvation there. In that sense, the wound is healed. It only is healed for the time of the tribulation. That is why endurance and patience is called for among the true believers.
  11. Hi. Yes they are the same basically. The Bible is merely providing illustration of the confrontation between the saved and the unsaved during the tribulation period. Armageddon simply means the gathering place of the troops in Syria. Syria is a picture of the congregations in the Bible, and that is why Abraham had a friend Eliazer of Damascus, for example. Anyway, the congregations are where the battle is, spiritually, between the true believers and the unsaved. There will not be a physical war with tanks and the like known as the Battle of Armageddon. It is just a picture of spiritual warfare between the saved and the unsaved during the final time period, not of political entities.
  12. Hi there. No, Babylon is not America. It might be possible to see what Babylon is by simply reading Revelation 18. Revelation 18 calls Babylon the great city. This is the title given to Jerusalem in Rev 21, and to Sodom and Egypt in Rev 11, and to Ninevah elsewhere, among others. In fact the Bible talks about cities over and over again, and it is simply a parable way of looking at the same group of persons, those persons associated with God himself - they are the city. In fact, Jericho, was the city of palms, meaning of the righteous. Jericho means 'moon' which is a picture of the law of God, the Bible, the lesser light which is a reflection of Christ's light. Jerich had God's law. Yet Jericho's walls (which represent salvation) fell when Joshua (who represents Jesus) and the true believers marched around it. We learn that Babylon's walls fall during the hour of tribulation (which is not a literal hour but a time period). It is the period when God's holy spirit is withdrawn from the congregations and there is not any salvation left there. That is the very reason that Revelation 18 says that the voice of the bridgegroom (that's Jesus') will not be heard there again. It is the very reason that God says in Rev 18 to "come out of her my people". My people means the true believers. The true believers are told to spiritually come out of the fallen or false city. It is not talking about political nations, like, say, present day America or present day Israel. It is saying that true believers are commanded to come out of the fallen congregations which do not have the holy spirit any longer. In fact, we find that just Lot came out of the city of Sodom before God overthrew the city, another picture of the same event. Noah, in like manner, was delivered in his covenant ark as the flood of destruction took over the not true believers. The religious who perish in Bablylon are pictured by the Pharisees in Jesus' day. They are the wicked generation which never disappears until all these things are accomplished. Fortunately, the true believers, who have been habitually rejected as they bring the truth to congregations, are delivered by God and continue to be saved. It is not a physical political event. It is talking about salvation vs. not.
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