BJ66

rollinTHUNDER asked about the abomination of desolation and the Temple. Interestingly the correlation of these two is integral to the answer. My apologies in advance for the length of this answer. But the short question pulls right from the middle of 9:26 and from the middle of 9:27. I could not explain my understanding without dealing with the whole of both verses and their integrated relationship. While this is convoluted at one level… it is quite simple at another. Verses 26 and 27 is a short parallelism or is in a ‘chiastic’ type of form. Take a look: The 1’s go together, the 2’s go together, and the 3’s go together. Daniel 9:26–27 (NKJV) 26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then {And} he shall confirm a {make a prevailing New} covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” The 1’s really need little explanation. Seeing the ‘covenant’ as the New Covenant: 26(1) depicts the Messiah being ‘cut off’ – this is the cross, and 27(1) the corresponding end of the sacrificial system The 2’s are very interesting… can we equate…: 26(2) the ‘…the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary’… with… 27(2) ‘on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate’. On the face of it these could go together… but more evidence would be nice – see below! Let’s look at two sets of verses in two synoptic gospels. These lend significant credibility to the idea that these concepts are, if not identical, certainly parallel. Let’s look at how a passage in Matthew correlates to a passage in Luke that deal with these same two issues – the abomination of desolation and the destruction of the Temple. Remember Luke is a Gentile writing from that perspective and Matthew is a Jew writing from that perspective and heritage. Matthew 24:15–16 (NKJV) 15 “Therefore when you see (…BLANK…) 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Luke 21:20–21a (NKJV) 20 “But when you see (…BLANK…) 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,… The (…BLANK…) of Matthew 24:15 “the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),” The (…BLANK…) of Luke 21:20 “Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near” These are synoptic Gospels saying, if not the same thing, certainly parallel thoughts. This is the same construct in terms of how we understand the ‘cross’ and ‘the end of the sacrificial system’ as parallel concepts. They do not need to be identical just related. So, the ‘abomination of desolation’ and ‘Jerusalem surrounded by armies’ are at least parallel concepts if not identical concepts expressed differently. Matthew’s version is even followed by ‘whoever reads, let him understand’ as if to say this is a culturally constrained reference. Matthew would employ this reference to speak specifically to Jews who would be familiar with this historical reference from Daniel. It would seem most appropriate to say that Luke interprets Matthew’s reference for us Gentiles. This then, at the same time, verifies the parallel nature of Daniel 26(2) and 27(2). The 3’s are about the ‘determination’ or declaration of: Daniel 26(3) And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 27(3) Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” Even though this is somewhat cryptic language it is easy to see that these verses, on their face, are likely parallel. But a deeper look helps to confirm and enlighten. Jesus ’determines’ – declares – both: The desolation and The end, the consummation Daniel 26(3) Jesus determines/declares THE DESOLATION Matthew 23:37–38 (NKJV) 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; Matthew 24:2 (NKJV) 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” Daniel 27(3) Jesus determines/declares the time of the end, THE CONSUMMATION Luke 21:22 (NKJV) 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Luke 21:24 (NKJV) 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:32 (NKJV) 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. This prophecy of Daniel 9 is about the end of the Old Covenant – Daniel’s people (National Israel) as he had known them – constituted on the foundation of the Old Covenant. Going forward there would be a re-constitution of Israel in the form of a New Covenant with Israel. There is no vaulting of 9:27 into our future. One last note… all of the events of Daniel 9:26 &27 are “after the sixty-two weeks” (after 7+62... which is anytime in the 70th week or after). Only the components of 9:24 are constrained to the seventy weeks. Daniel’s 70 weeks of 9:24 are literal and chronological as was the 70 year captivity that the 490 years were based on. 9:25 is constrained within the first 69 weeks. (7+62) My apologies again rollinTHUNDER for this excessive explanation. Your question however was perfectly in the middle of 9:26 and 9:27… The 2’s; so I felt it important to explain the 1’s and the 3’s as well. By the way a chiasm or parallelism is not a foreign literary device in scripture. (In chiastic terms 9:26-27 would be in the form of an ABA ABA Chiasm. For ease in 'word processing' I have stated this above in terms of 1, 2, 3; 1, 2, 3. - probably more than you wanted to know!) bj

rollinTHUNDER Answer to follow tomorrow - Sorry no discretionary time right now.... kids (who knew??) Just wanted to let you know I will reply shortly. Thanks for the opportunity to answer the question. bj

Last Daze - I am sorry I misunderstood your question. As most issues related to dating... this is a deduction. Below are the two time frames given per Logos Bible Software related to Paul's Conversion. Other dates are available from other sources... all are in this general timeframe. AD 33 Paul Converts to Christianity (Early) AD 35 Paul Convert to Christianity (Late) Ultimately If the Jews received more than a 'seven'... then they did receive a 'seven'. I do not think a measure of grace would be precluded - nor do I think our dating methods are perfect. But you are correct in asking about the degree of certainty. There is not specific scripture. I should not state this with such specificity! It is a deduction! bj

Last Daze, First, I believe that a 'week' here is 7 years. (If one does not accept this then a different thread is required to bring that out.) The midpoint of the week is the cross. Realistically you do not need an 'event' on either side if you have the midpoint... but we do have them. 3.5 before the cross is Jesus baptism - the beginning of His ministry to the Jews. 3.5 after the cross is the conversion of Paul who ultimately is known as the Apostle to the Gentiles - this marks the beginning of the end of the exclusivity of the message to the Jews. This of course is followed by Peter's dream... Paul's missionary journey's... and the rest is history. bj

Here is a different opinion... Daniel 9:27 (NASB95) 27 “And he will make a firm1396 covenant with the many for one week,…” The first and most used definition of 1396 is “prevail” 1396 גָּבַר [gabar /gaw·bar/] And He will make a prevailing covenant {the New Covenant} with the many {Israel} for one week {7 years} The New Covenant is of course the “prevailing” covenant. This stands in perfect contrast to the ‘obsolete’ and ‘vanishing’ Old Covenant. ‘He will make a prevailing Covenant with the many for seven years’ is speaking to a promise of initial exclusivity of the ministry of the Gospel to the Jews for at least one ‘week’ - seven years. And this is exactly what we see. Verses demonstrating the initial exclusivity of the ministry to the Jews. Mat. 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Mat. 10:5–6 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Acts 2:4–5 (NKJV) 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. Acts 3:26 (NKJV) 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.” Acts 10:44–45 (NKJV) 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. Romans 1:16 (NKJV) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Jesus’ earthly ministry was for 3.5 years and it was another 3.5 years before the conversion of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, followed by Peter’s dream and ultimately the release of the ministry to all. Thus the New Covenant ‘prevails’ beyond the initial period of exclusivity ‘to the many for one week’ Said in ‘amplified’ fashion: ‘And He {the Messiah} will make a prevailing covenant {the New Covenant} with the many {the Jews} {exclusively} for one week {then the New Covenant will begin to ‘bless all the families of the earth’}. bj

Hello All Try this difference of opinion as tied to scripture. The three best scriptural ‘tethers’ regarding the 144,000 are the following: They are sealed (Rev 7:4)* They are firstfruits (Rev 14:4)** They are strictly Jewish and of the twelve tribes (Rev 7:4)*** *Revelation 7:4 (NKJV) 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: **Revelation 14:4 (NKJV) 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. ***Revelation 7:4 (NKJV) 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: So in testing these three characteristics of the 144,000 here is what is found: #1 - Testing the New Testament for “seal”, these are the relevant findings: John 6:27 (NKJV) 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.” Romans 15:28 (NKJV) 28 Therefore, when I have performed this and have sealed to them this fruit, I shall go by way of you to Spain. 2 Corinthians 1:21–22 (NKJV) 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. Ephesians 1:13 (NKJV) 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV) 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV) 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” The conclusion, based on scripture – not conjecture – is that the seal would be the Holy Spirit given to believers (or do you suppose these 144,000 are not believers?). #2 - Testing the New Testament for ‘firstfruits’, these are the relevant findings: Christ is called the “firstfruit” (singular) twice in 2 Cor 15 1 Corinthians 15:20 (NKJV) 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:23 (NKJV) 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Paul links himself to the 144,000 by saying he is a ‘firstfruit’. He further links himself with the ‘seal’ of the Holy Spirit which is of course only available if you are ‘the Lambs’. Romans 8:23 (NKJV) 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. James also links himself to the 144,000 by saying he is a ‘firstfruit’. James 1:18 (NKJV) 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. The conclusion, based on scripture – not conjecture – is that the firstfruits… the 144,000… are the founders of Christendom – true “first” fruits. #3 – Demonstrating that these 144,000 of the tribes of Israel James pens his letter “to the twelve tribes in the Dispersion” (James 1:1), Christian Jews who have been sent out as evangelists. It is in this letter, as mentioned above, that James includes himself and these other Jews in the ‘firstfruits’, in the 144,000. James 1:1 (HCSB) 1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ: To the 12 tribes in the Dispersion (Christian Jews). Greetings. James 1:18 (NKJV) 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. The conclusion, based on scripture – not conjecture – is that the firstfruits… the 144,000… are the Jewish founders of Christendom – true “first” fruits. Romans 1:16 (HCSB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is God’s power for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek. bj