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Diaste last won the day on June 5 2018

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About Diaste

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    WY, USA
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    The Advent of the Beast.
    The Sign of the Coming of the Son of Man.
    The Gathering of the Elect.
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  1. Even though scripture says: "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) " And logically only the dead in Christ are raised at the return of the Lord, meaning the dead not in Christ are not raised at that time. That leaves the rest of the dead to be raised at the second resurrection and appear here: "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." I agree that any of the dead not in Christ from the return of the Lord to the end of the millennium will appear before the great white throne, we still have to account for all the dead not in Christ, who were not raised when Jesus returned. These two groups are separated by 1000 years as we see here. The dead in Christ are reigning as well as those who came from GT dead in resisting the beast and the mark, and these are separated by 1000 years. Notice the two groups in the second paragraph of scripture above. This is more detail about the same judgement from Matt 25. Rev 20 pretty much proves that just because all in the graves will hear His voice and come forth does not mean all will hear that voice at the same time, and scripture does not say, "all in the graves will hear His voice and come forth all at the same time." as it's obvious some of the dead are not raised till after 1000 years. How is it that everyone appears at the Judgement of Matt 25 when a large group is already alive and reigning with Jesus? And if all in the grave hear His voice all at the same time and come forth how would we account for the living raised from the dead at the return of our Lord, when only those in Christ are raised from the dead? It looks like the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain never face the power of death at the GWT judgement. They are already deemed righteous or they would not be raised from the dead and hence rule with Jesus for one thousand years before the GWT. During the GWT the dead are judged and only those who's names were not found written in the book of life are cast into eternal torment. The language of Rev 20:11-15 more than suggests that some names are found written in the book of life and some are not. The resurrection of the saints occurs when Jesus returns, the resurrection of the dead occurs after the millennium. No one misses the millennium that is supposed to be there and not everyone appears at the GWT with the power of death hanging over them, if those of the 1st resurrection appear before the GWT judgement at all.
  2. I suppose that's one way to look at it. Looking closer at the judgement: 31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. :This cannot be those resurrected in Christ, and those who are alive and remain as they are with the Lord in the clouds of the air immediately upon resurrection and translation per 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36 I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’ The qualification for entry into the kingdom; showing love. (Big mistake to think only "Christians" can show love. In fact "Christians" may be far less loving than people who do not make such a claim.) 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’ This blessed group does not even know what they did to afford such a great gift. "Christians" arrogantly assume that because they identify as "Christian" they are immune from sin. This is not a group of people associated with "Christianity" but only with showing love to those in need and never saw Jesus in who they were helping, they were just helping others out of their true loving nature. 40 And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’ Amazing! Note the absence of what "Christians" think are the qualifications to enter into eternal glory. Love for others is the best qualifier, superseding all else. 41 Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Disqualified for ignoring the needs of others, not showing love. 44 And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ " So the ones judged righteous in this group are not those in Christ resurrected when our Lord appears, but judged righteous by their actions in the mercy and love of the Most High God at the time the 'rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.'
  3. Never heard the plagues of Egypt likened to wrath; the flood, but not the plagues. Wrath maybe likened to drowning Pharaoh's army in the red sea, but the flood is the only analogy to wrath so stated.
  4. Well that brings up questions. If Jesus has not yet come, yet wrath has begun, and we are not appointed to wrath, and are not taken off the earth till Jesus does come as a thief, and Rev 16:15 clearly states he 'is coming' something has to give. Because if He has not come to get us when he appears, it is unequivocal in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 that we are gathered when he appears, then we are in His wrath as Rev 16:1 states wrath has begun. Yet 16:15 seems to say he has not yet come and His elect would still be here in wrath, which is disputed by 1 Thess 5, 1 Cor 15, 2 Thess 2, Matt 24, etc. Why isn't Rev 16:15 an iteration of a characteristic action for readers to be aware of long before any of this occurs? A reminder that we do not forget the instantaneous nature of His coming and the reward for diligence and failure, and not a prominent feature of a previous timeline inserted into a sub timeline well after the fact? I think this insertion has no bearing on and does not disturb well established fact on the timeline of His appearance and the gathering. It seems to be a reminder saying, "Stay ahead of events and remember just how quickly things will turn." Or, "Remember to walk with me at all times and this will not fall on you." Or both. I like both. Yes, but that doesn't invalidate the point. It will seem sudden to atheists but to me the time is dragging by with glacial speed. The destruction of the flood was a present condition which is the point. In the face of eternity of death a thousand years would seem like a single tick of the clock and so it's the same here as the flood. It only seemed instantaneous as they were not watching. The greater point was that 'sudden destruction' may endure for a given time greater than a single time/space moment lasting only minutes or hours in a single location. Hence the 'peace and safety' may be a world wide call not limited to any singular event but linked to a mental, emotional and spiritual condition of those in darkness, per 1 Thess 5, prior to the coming of the Lord and the onset of wrath of the 1st vial.
  5. Babylon is also a harlot, and the mother of harlots.
  6. By the number it's been every British Royal, Pope, US President and even dead tyrants. No matter who a person listens to interpret the number in relation to a person it will be some high profile actor. In my mind it's futile to find the beast in this manner. From what I can understand in both old and new testaments the beast will be Middle Eastern, in all likelihood from Mesopotamia around the region of Babylon (Iran, Iraq), and be described as the 8th of the previous 7. Probably alive today hiding in some dusty hole in the desert. By all means reveal the name.
  7. It's interesting that Paul speaks to that day as occurring in two different ways depending on the group. The distinction is made between those in darkness and those not in darkness. "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." - 1 Thess 5 So this day, the day of the Lord, occurs in what amounts to opposites depending on whether one lives in light or darkness. This would be the two subsets, light or darkness, of the set of all people alive at the time of the day of the Lord; necessarily meaning the day of the Lord and the sudden destruction come upon those in darkness, wherever and whoever they are. In the flood sudden destruction took a matter of days for some, weeks for others and I would suppose it was instant for anyone in the path of the fountains of the great deep. They were unprepared so it appeared to occur without warning and they were destroyed even if it took weeks. If indeed the the bowls, or vials, are the wrath of God and the sudden destruction does come upon people when the day of the Lord finally occurs it would seem to be upon all the people so affected for the duration of the pouring out of the bowls; a few months perhaps. Not that I want to get into a lot of word study but definitions can be enlightening; "cometh upon" is 'ephestemi', to set upon, set up, to stand upon, be present; Usage: I stand by, am urgent, befall one (as of evil), am at hand, impend. This sudden destruction looks like a condition the earth and all it's people endure for a particular window of time. The same would apply, in my mind, with peace and safety. Since the context is a comparison between the light and the darkness and those living in each, the call for security would apply to those in darkness and those would be in danger of the impending and present condition of 'sudden destruction'; which in my understanding seems more like enacting the punishment clause and not an execution or annihilation. And since it's an existing condition, this 'sudden destruction', it would not mean the destruction would fall in a moment but still be assured as it's based on a spiritual condition and not locale. But this goes back to Isaiah 28 and my dogmatic position of the Israel-centric nature of scripture. I'm convinced from certain evidence in scripture, and empirical evidence, that peace and safety may only consist of the call from the nation of Israel for security, for which they will reap the consequences of Isaiah 28. I'm not saying that many people won't be calling for peace and safety, they may be as 1 Thess 5 seems to say 'whoever and whenever they speak peace and security', I'm saying the ultimate consequential call for security will emanate from the nation of Israel and be joined by a chorus of voices worldwide. The combined voices operate out of the cloud of spiritual emptiness and this darkness will lead to the sudden and shocking fate of those who believe not.
  8. Hey LD, I have long been under the impression that scripture is Israel-centric among the context of God's plan and the Kingdom of Christ and eternity. My interpretation of this is a call by the nation of Israel for peace and safety, even stronger than what Israel calls for now and has been trying to achieve for decades. I for one can't see the point in the dead calling for peace and safety but I do see the importance of Israel putting out the call. " Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”; and, “This is the place of repose”— but they would not listen. So then, the word of the Lord to them will become: Do this, do that, a rule for this, a rule for that; a little here, a little there—so that as they go they will fall backward; they will be injured and snared and captured. Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers who rule this people in Jerusalem. You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death, with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place.” So this is what the Sovereign Lord says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic. I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumb line; hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie, and water will overflow your hiding place. Your covenant with death will be annulled; your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand. When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it. As often as it comes it will carry you away; morning after morning, by day and by night, it will sweep through.” - Isaiah 28 I'm convinced this is an end of the age passage and that Paul was referencing this either by personal recollection or Spiritual inspiration in his letter to the Thessalonians.
  9. "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." "By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him," "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete (Second Resurrection). This is the first resurrection (Verse 4) .6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years." All the dead in Christ from the time Paul taught such, and the living at the time of the Return of our King, are raised from the dead or taken alive off the earth at His glorious return, the first Resurrection. The rest of the dead would include those in the grave not in Christ at the time of his return and those who die from His return till the end of the 1000 years, the second Resurrection. No additions or subtractions and in harmony with other scripture on the same subject.
  10. Agreed. I would only add that Paul said the dead in Christ from his time will be raised before those who are alive and remain. Rev 20 doesn't limit who is resurrected. "And I saw thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge.", it's showing that these people are there.
  11. I agree with Isaiah 26-27 referring to the end of the age and the great events that will take place. I agree the 'great trumpet' is the last trump, there is more than enough evidence for that conclusion. "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." This is the first resurrection before the millennium consisting of those who went through GT, those raised at the great trumpet, the last trump, a loud trump, the trump of God; all the same trumpet from Isaiah, Matthew and Paul. We don't disagree on this unless I'm missing something. On occasion it's been pointed out I'm using logical fallacy as an argument but it's not often. What is not there in a text is as important as what is there, and what is missing compels the reader to question but not assume nor conclude. I believe I was pointing out that assumptions are made from the Jewish traditions surrounding the feast of trumpets when the passage concerning the command of God says no such thing. There is no first or last trump in Lev 23:23-25 and since the text is silent we cannot conclude there is proof of a last trump, or how many, being referred to here; even as for obvious reasons there would at some point be a last trumpet sound on the this day, whether one or many. There is only one series of trumps where there is clearly a last one in the whole of scripture and those are the 7 trumps of Revelation. If you could, please give an example of my argument from silence.
  12. Excellent. I agree with you on this.
  13. Good morning Uriah, I agree. However, Paul says 'last trump'. Only one last trump I know of and that's the 7th trump of Revelation. Paul had insight to the future as Isaiah does not mention a 'last trump' but a 'great trumpet'. Given the rest of the evidence in Isaiah 26-27 I would concur both chapters are end of the age at the time of Jesus 2nd coming, the resurrection of His people, the defeat of the armies of the beast, and the capture of Satan. Doesn't change the fact that 'last trump' has nothing to to do Jewish tradition surrounding the celebration of trumps in Lev 23 and everything to do with a real 'last trump' from the only series of trumps so recorded in scripture.
  14. Paul did not have to explain because he was speaking of the future not the past. Paul also taught we should not rely on tradition, that Christ and the resurrection is our future hope and it's not based on the past. It's doesn't matter when the Revelation was given to John, Paul and John both heard from the same Spirit and the same Lord, Paul knew about the last trump because he heard it from Jesus himself, remember the road to Damascus? And if Paul and John were referencing different trumps, and if Paul was referring to some old Jewish tradition then they contradict each other and Paul contradicts his own words. You'll see. Such an HOUR as you think not could be any hour of any day of any year throughout time. Consider, "...such an hour as ye think not..." You are thinking it must come before certain events when the words of our Lord specify it will not come as you think, or when.
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