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lovetruth

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  1. So the false teachers/shepherds try to get attention or a following/social empowerment, whereas the true pastors are servants rather than lords. It is really refreshing when we listen to someone preach and we lose sight of the person speaking, as we become focused on the truth about Christ. How does a true minister relate to the other people with gifts? What would be his role? And how would a one pastor ministry be a hindrance as you mentioned in the opening? Is it because he is thought to be a prime speaker rather than sharing the pulpit? The oder of God is to allow Christ to work in the body as the head Ephesians 4:15,16. Then as they gifts are allow to operate the believers will recognize the ones who so minister. These brothers become mature in their gifts and so become recognized elders who help by example and the word. A babe is unskillful in the word of righteousness but a elder is more so. This doesnt mean that a babe cannot share the word or revelation, it simply means that elders (plural) are more equped to do so and will often exhort the gainsayers by sound doctrine. But if a one man pastor gift is put as a title of office over all others rather than just one of the FIVE fold gifts Ephesians 4, this will quench the spirit in others and hinder them from ministering and exalt one ministry or gift over all. Every joint supplies according to the effectual working in the measure of every part", not just one joint supplies. The body is many parts and one part cannot say to the other parts I have no need of you. I speak of ministry in te body on a Sunday or whenever the believers gather together in one place.
  2. there is a saving baptism and it is not water baptism
  3. John warns of those dominating men who do not receive the truth and who take preeminance over others and abuse their roles and kick others out of the church. Is this a issue today? and paul also warns of men who exalt themsleves in 2 Cor 11. This is also an issue do we see this everywhere today. Why do some minister think they can do whatever they want and not be accountable to God?
  4. Yes I have had experience with this sort also. I am also speaking of all belivers who must gather under Christ as the head and to let the Word of Christ dwell in us richly, teaching and admonishing one another ... the bible also warns about some similar men in 2 Peter I believe who make merchandise of the saints etc . And in 2 Cor 11 paul warns about those who exalt themsleves and devour them and take from them.
  5. hello agai, Paul mentions aspects of Bishops (overseers) in Timothy, but pastor gifts and apostles, prophets, evangelist and teachers, are given from God we can discuss the aspects of these gifts but that is a longer talk. Remeber Paul said he was an aopstle, not of men, or by men, but of God. This is the calling for all ministers. Men can recognize this call and gift. But these overseers who are also elders and who may have one of the five fold gifts, are not as Lords or exalted men over others The marks of false ministers Paul warns about in 2 Cor they exalt themsleves and take of others etc, Pal also said that they wpuld draw away disciples after themselves. John warned of Diotrephese who loved to have the preminance among them and did not receive the brethren and kicked them out. John also tells believers how to know the false and true by the anointing which abides in believers. He said you have no need that any man should teach you 1 John 2 . Yes God gives teachers but we listen for the witness in us and for the word.
  6. hello Kan, Yes I am aware of this many minister ( so called) today can simply buy there way into a bible school and take a few courses pass the course and become a pastor, or Master of divinity ( so called a horrible title for man to take) and this is not the way God makes overseers or elders etc. Paul told christians to know those who labour among then. The knowing comes as they see others minister in thier gifts. We should recognize and submit to one another.
  7. Marilyn C..yes another good section. they exalt themsleves and take of you ( money) . Those two marks expose alot of men.
  8. The error of the one man pastor ministry. Another main hinderance to the function of God’s order in the church, is this one man “Pastor ministry” that has dominated Christendom for a long time. This traditon of men is contrary to God’s order of plurality of ministering elders in every church and various giftings to the body of Christ. We read in Ephesians 4:11 that God gave ”gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:”, and when “they had ordained them elders in every church”(Acts 14:23). In God’s order there are more giftings than just pastors, and we never read of a one man pastor over a church in the New Testament always a plurality of elders! Yet unfortunately today this one man dominates Christendon everywhere! The one man pastor ministry tradition quenches the spirit in others and hinders the body from edifying itself under Christ headship in the gatherings and the mutual edification where all can use their gifts in God’s order (Ephesians 4:15,16, 1 Corinthians 12:7-25, 1 Peter 4:10,11, 1 Corinthians 14:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 5:11, Romans 12etc). How can the order of God be seen when the entire gathering is dominated by one man and body life is hindered? At best these large meetings are similar to evangelistic meetings or a big bible study as I said before. But this tradition has hindered church meetings and the order of God among us and the body life greatly. How can “every one have”, when only the Pastor is allowed to speak and minister? This man made tradition also draws many to gather around men and certain ministries of these men rather than gathering around Christ and the various “programs” they develop. How many today gather around these men and certain doctrines and denominations instead of Christ and His working in every part of the body of Christ In these traditions, there has been a massive schism in the body of Christ, between the so called, “Clergy”, and the “Laity”. This is a false traition and not based on the scritpures of truth. The word “clergy”, comes from the Greek word “kleros”, meaning “heritage, inhertitance or lot”, showing that believers are the inheritance, or heritage of God and it is used that way in scripture as we read , “ Neither as being lords over God’s heritage [Kleros], but being examples to the flock.” (1 Peter 5:3). The word “laity” means comes from the word “laos”, meaning, “a people”, and it is used that way in scripture. “And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people [laos].” ( 2 Corinthians 6:16) There is no such thing as a clergy and latiy division as we see today and from way back in history. The “kleros:, and the “laity” both refer to the body of Christ. We are the inheritance of God and the people of God. Again we see that mans traditions and order has caused a schism in the body. This schism is mentioned in in 1 Cor 12 and other places, this verse is in reference to men not allowing the body to function as it should, and by causing sich a divide between the body and the man at the front called the “pastor”, or the head pastor, senior elder pastor etc. This creates a dysfunction and error in their order. It hinders Christ from working and moving in all the offices in the gatherings. All the body should have the same care one for another ( verse) and we are all brothers and sister (verse). This very unity of the body in the Spirit is part of the goal for ministry ( Ephesians 4:?). But putting one gifting above others hinders this. 1. Mutual edification, not just a pastor gifting Clearly in scripture we see the exact oppostie of a one man pastor ministry, as we have already pointed out. Here are just a few of the verses that show mutual edification of the body and not a just one man pastor ministry. “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:” (Ephesians 4:11, 12) Clearly, there are more than pastors alone for the work mentioned here, yet somehow this one man padtor gift has dominated Christendom for a long time. “But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Ephesians 4:15, 16) As this verse has already been mentioned it is seen agin in this context, showing clearly that this work of Christ as the head is not dependant on a one man pastor ministry or any man for that matter. Christ is the one who works “effectually”, in the measure of “every part”. Not just in a one man pastor ministry or selective elders alone. “How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14;26) “every one of you hath”, this is so clear here in showing that the ministry of the body in edifying itself was not by just one man called the “pastor”. This section deos not read, “if the pastor hath”. To have something from God is the true way to edify eachother, and this section would connect with Pauls words to the Ehpesians 4 when he said that Christ works in every part of the body. . When God gives, then we have, and so it is Christ that leads the meetings in the truest sense, as the head of the church. This is the commandment of God (1 Corinthians 14:26- 37, 38) “But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:” ( 1 Corinthians 14:24) Here again we see that all can prophesy, this is also related to God's working to convict and judge sin in the camp. and in unbelievers among us. many times a man may even be sharing a word or a teaching and his words may come forth that will convict the hearers to such a degree that they will wonder how the person speaking knew these things about them. When God is moving and working all things are possible. This again is the commandment of God (1 Corinthians 14:24- 37, 38) “If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.” (1 Corintians 14:30, 31) Notice that this passage does not say “if anything be revealed to the pastor alone”. No, all may have a revelation and prophesy. Prophecy is to “forthtell, and fortell, and to speak under unction”. Prophesy is connected to “anything” that is revealed. It is also as Paul said “...he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.” ( 1 Corinthians 14:3). It is also for convincing and judging as we have discussed (1 Cor. 14:24). “But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.” ( 1 Corinthians 12:7). God would not gives this manifestation to “every man”, if he did not expect every man to function in the body somehow. Again, we do not read “ the manifestation of the Spirit is given to the pastor only”. “But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you....25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.” ( 1 Corinthians 12:20, 21,25) But a schism is created by dividing the pastor gifting from the other gifts and functions of the body as we gather. Some may say this is not specifically speaking of a gathering of believers, but yes, it can extend to all aspects of the body. We read in verses 12:8-10, of wisdom, knowledge, prophecy and tongues etc. These manifestations of the Spirit can be seen in the meetings also. It is ot men that can order this, Gods order is the only way for such a manifestation of the Spirit as Paul said, “But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.” ( 1 Corinthians 12:11). “Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.” ( 1 Thessalonians 5:11) The “one anothering” is part of God’s order for the mutual edification of eachother in Christ. Without this one anothering, we would not have proper growth and building up of the body thus creating a weak and dysfunctional body. The pastor cannot do all this, and was never intended to. To even try to will leand them to be overwhelmed and over burdened. There are many “one another” verses in the New Testament, here are just a few, (1 Thessalonians 4:18, Hebrews 10:25, James 5:16, Ephesians 5:12, Romans 14:19, Romans 15:14, 1 Corinthians 11:33, 1 Corinthians 16:20) “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” (Colossians 3:16) Where in this verse do we see a one man pastor gifting doing most if not all the ministry to the body? No, we see that it is the word of Christ dwelling in us that builds us up and we speak forth from this. This is God’s order again, and His leading us and working in us. “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.” ( Hebrews 10:15) How often have ministers said the first part of this verse about not forsaking the assembly of ourselves, but they do not stress the last part of “exhorting one another”. This “one another” aspect is vital to the assembly of ourselves together. This is not defining a one man pastor ministry, but instead the body ministry to one another as Christ. And this is more needul as we see the day approaching, which we can see that it is. "As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Peter 4:10,11 Here Peter also spoke of these things and notice he says as EVERY man hath received the gift. Not as every pastor only. He also says that we will be good stewards of the grace of God if we minister in this leading. “For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:” (Romans 12:4-8) Again, as believers we are members one of another and so can edify eachother. To limit this one anothering to a single man called “the pastor” is not sound and can greatly hinder the body of Christ. This aspect of the body spoken here in Romans 12, can extend to the daily lives of believers and not only to the gatherings of the saints into one place, but it also extends to the assemblies of the church in the houses, for we read of the body edification and teaching and prophecy and exhorting etc. Also the way for all this to take place is when we are dead to self and pick up our cross. Paul speaks of this in verse 12:1, and said, “that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.”. When we are dead to self the life of Christ can be manifest in our mortal bodies ( 2 Cor 4:10,11). Paul even said to the Corintians “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” (1 Corinthians 2:2). To know Christ crucified and to be crucified with him, is how we are able to walk in God’s order, in the Spirit. This is how the life of Christ may be made manifest in our metings and lives. I want to point out that many of those men who are called the pastor over a church are godly men and truly love God and have spoken in love and truth, and many of them are not true ministers also . But either way even if they are the most benevolent men, in this wrong authority over others and the exalted place they hold they are more like benevolent dictators who do not allow the body to function properly under Christ headship. the history of this stems way back and really became noticed around the Time of Constantine and after wards
  9. Yet God calls us all into fellowship with Him and with each other. If you disdain or fear churches so much, how do you maintain Godly unity? He doesn't call us out of our churches unless it is teaching error. In fact, God is consistently calling people into the large churches that do not hinder the Holy Spirit, no matter what their services look like. We are free in Christ and that freedom allows us to glorify God in whatever way He calls us to. If that means an exuberant worship style with instruments, singers and dancers, He is desiring it. We obey Him, and not someone's ideas of antiquated worship styles. God is the God of all ages. He is creative, and so are His people! Hello there, You said " Yet God calls us all into fellowship with Him and with each other" yes this fellowship or communion is as we abide in Christ and walk in the Spirit. This is when Christ is the head and as he effectually works in thos that believe Eph. 4:15,16. In this life we live in as we gather we are able to edify eachother. But in many assemblies this is quenched immediately and noone is allowed to edify anyone. A one man ministry exhats itself over all and draws away disciples after them. paul warned of this fro three years in Acts 20 we read this. Paul said that men would rise up from among them drawing away dic iples after themselves. John warned of Diotrephes who loved the preemminance and wouldnt receive the brothers and kicked them out of the church gathering. You asked "how do you maintain Godly unity?" It is God who maintains the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. We endevour to maintain this unity as we walk in the Spirit and let the peace of God RULE our hearts. To which we are also calld in one body. Unity is possible in all things in Christ Paul even said we should all speak the same things and have the same mind and the same judgement that there sshould be no divisions among us. This unity is only accomplish in Christ and as he also uses apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints till we all come in the unity of the faith unto the perfect man. But this unity will not come if the body is not allowed to function in whatever gifts God uses to bring this about. If a one man pastor ministry is exhalted over all and noone can minister then this unity is hindered. "You said "He doesn't call us out of our churches unless it is teaching error." we are told to withdraw from every brother that walketh disorderly and not after the traditions handed down. And God calls his people out of Bayblon the great Mother of harlots. One of the traditions or patterns we see is to wait on the Lord and gather in homes ministering as we are led of God you said, "God is consistently calling people into the large churches that do not hinder the Holy Spirit, no matter what their services look like. " i do not agree. paul set in order things in every church he had a order they were all to follow Paul rebuked the Corinthians for thinking they could do thier own thing. God is not the authour of confusion but of peace as in ALL THE CHURCHES OF THE SAINTS.. If one church has one order and another different that would cause confusion.This is a long response , maybe we can discuss it later You said, "If that means an exuberant worship style with instruments, singers and dancers, He is desiring it. We obey Him, and not someone's ideas of antiquated worship styles." i am not talking about styles or music in meetings etc. i am talking about the body free to edify one another under Christ headship and not quenched by the one man ministry and programs and many other things
  10. many attach legalism to anything that says we ought to obey Gods truth or when we use scripture to correct or instruct. They act as if it is legalism to obey the commandments of the Lord that Paul exhorted the christians to obey in 1 Cor 14:37,38 I exhort all who would not obey the commandments of the Lord that Paul refers to . That Paul said you wont be received or in his words you are ignorant. We dont listen to ignorant men.
  11. this is false I speak only truth to you and it seems that you are most likely one of those who is in a religious system that I speak about. I do not push anything , but how forcible are right words as scripture teaches. and the truth God has given me is for ALL BELIEVERS EVERYWHERE. God is in his truth I post here. Jesus warned not to be like the Gentile authority where those that are great among them are over them in authority we should not be like that. But sadly this is exactly how many are
  12. Ezra hello again, yes Laodicea is very similar to many today and jesus stand outside of their religious show and they think all is well but he wants to come into them and sup with them. This inward communion is his participation with them as the head and as he effectually works in the measure of every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. The dangerous part there is that he will spew them out of his mouth f they do not. What I speak of here is so serious I cannot stress the importance.
  13. this is why they will need to follow Gods order and gather in homes under Christ headhsip and edify one another, and read Colossians 2:8
  14. apostles pators etc are not offices so much but gifts, the office of a bishop or overseer is also an elder, and that is more of a function and apostles are for today and they were given after Christ rose from the dead as well. Ephesians 4:10,11, and read Acts 13 and 14 where barnabas was called and sent as an apostle in ACts 14 we see this. Also Timoteous and Silvanus were apostles in 1 Thessalonians 1 and 2:6
  15. yes there are many born again believers in man made religious denomination. there is no name for the ministry, name makeing is a mark of the babyle builders who wanted to make a name for themselves. The word denomination, means to make a name. The first thing many of these religious forms have to do when they create a constitution is to make a name. I come in the name of the Lord
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