Rev2015

Once again you are off base. Everything concerning these judgments is sequential, so to claim that they are concurrent is simply conjecture. Furthermore it is during the 7th seal period that the seven trumpet judgments occur, and it is during the 7th trumpet judgment that the seven bowls (or vials) of wrath are poured out. Once again there is no Scripture connecting the Feast of Trumpets to the resurrection and rapture. The silver trumpets which summoned the assembling and journeying of Israel in the wilderness are a type of the last trump which summons the Church to Heaven. Hey Ezra, In reading Revelation 6, when the 6th seal is opened, it is very apparent Christ has returned at the 6th seal at the end of the 7 year period. The elite hide themselves in the rocks and dens of the mountains pray for them to hide them from The Father and the Lamb, for His day IS come. If you hold to the consecutive view then you have to explain why there is a need to inflict the trumpet and bowls of wrath judgments on the earth after Jesus has arrived. He wins the battle against the world’s armies that have already gathered to fight Him and his armies. There is no need to continue the trumpets judgments or the bowls of wrath if Christ has returned to the earth as the 6th seal indicates. This is why I believe the concurrent view. In this view the trumpets and bowls of wrath have been being blown and poured out concurrently in parallel with the seals, the trumpets from around the midpoint and the bowls of wrath near the very end of the 7 years, so by the time the 6th seal is opened, the trumpet and bowls of wrath judgments are wrapping up also, with the 7th of each series of judgments happening at the same moment as Christ feet touch the ground immediately following the 6th seal causing the great earthquake described at the 7th of each judgment. I have found that God teaches Revelation like He did Genesis. He started out summarizing the 6 days of creation followed by the 7th day of rest. He then backs up and fills more information on what occurred during the creation week. I believe Revelation is the same way. The seal judgments are a summarization of the 7 years. Notice how after the 6th of each series of judgments, there is a gap before the 7th judgment, I believe this is to back up to fill in more information on what else was happening in the same period of time. I once held the consecutive view. I was shown and explained the concurrent view to study. As I delved more into the view, I believe it explained the timing and details of how the events in Revelation unfolded in a more accurate manner than the consecutive view. Anyway, we don’t have to agree, but if you get the time to study the view, just to understand its merits, I believe you may possibly discover some answers to questions you may have. Your comment about the two silver trumpets are also valid, I believe if the Feast of Trumpets isn't the representation of the last trump Paul is referring to, then I believe the description in the scripture on the blowing of the two silver trumpets is a possible fulfillment. I still believe the Feast of Trumpets is the more probable fulfillment, but I believe your assessment is an accurate possibility. God Bless

I believe the global elite controlled by the patriarchs of the earth's 10 wealthiest families (the future 10 kings of Daniel and Revelation) who own and control more than 70 percent of the world’s assets, are making their last effort to accomplish a global currency, that they hope will lead to a global government, and a global religious institution, without a world war to achieve this agenda. I believe scripture indicates they will fail in their attempt convincing the world to submit through consent, and they will then initiate a war that will subdue 3 of the kingdoms as described in Daniel. IMHO, I believe these kingdoms are North America, Russia and its sphere of influence, and the Islamic Arab kingdom. I believe Ezekiel 38 and 39 will be the war that will set the scenario in motion for the covenant with many to be presented to the world in the aftermath of the war. Historically the global elite have attempted to establish a global government twice with WWI and WWII. After each war ended, the documentation for global government was already prepared for the world to sign on to. The first, establishing the League of Nation, which failed, and their second attempt with he United Nations, which had a greater nation involvement, but isn’t the all powerful centralized rule they intended on. The Ezekiel 38 and 39 battle will be a Middle East battle between Israel and the Arab nations led by Iran/Persia and backed by Russia. We see this alignment now. I suspect once this war ignites, China will take advantage of the current U.S. weakness of not being able to fight on several fronts at once, and attack Taiwan. North Korea may do the same with South Korea, and we may even see India and Pakistan go at it. The 3rd World War will be horrific, the end result and its aftermath (Seals 1-4) could see over a billion dead, or a fourth of the world’s population, as we see in Revelation in the opening of the first four seals.

Hey Ezra, These are the verses in Ezekiel, some believe indicate God is telling us when this battle takes place. In the latter days/years, and just before/prior to a 7 year period where Israel will burn the weapons for fuel for those 7 years. Many believe this is a parallel to the 7 year covenant with many in Daniel, and the 7 year period described in Revelation. Again we don't have to agree, but these are the verses as to why I and others believe as we do. There are also many comparison studies of why this battle is not the battle after satan is released after the 1000 year reign of Christ. I will leave it to other threads for that endeavor. KJV Ezekiel 38: 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. Ezekiel 39: 9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Hello Ezra, In our study, I am sure most agree Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, are parallel summations of the book of Revelation. The contextual parallel verses can be observed in any side by side comparison. However this doesn't mean we have to agree on the timing and details of these events. KJV Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Verses 29-31 are a direct parallel of the 6th seal in Revelation 6: This happens as Christ returns to the earth as described in the 6th seal. Matthew 24: 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Mark 13: 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Verses 35 & 36 in Matthew 24, and as witnessed in Mark 13:31 & 32, are a direct parallel to Revelation chapter 21, and as described in detail in 2nd Peter chapter 3. The mentioning of the day the heavens and earth pass away, should point your direction to their fulfillments in Revelation 21 and 2nd Peter 3. Verse 35 of Matthew 24, and verse 31 of Mark 17 indicate in the contextual content, what day and hour is being referred to. I do not argue there are verses that seem to be misplaced in there context, Revelation 8:2, comes to mind, as well as Matthew 24 verse 28 (should be with verses 40 & 41), compared with the contextual parallel verses in Luke 17:34-37. However I do not believe we have this instance with verses 36 of Matthew 24, or verse 32 of Mark 17. Both indicate a non misplaced contextual content. So, I am not sure why you chose to place verse 36 of Matthew 24, as a continuance of verse 30, in your post. (below) "That is certainly not what the context reveals. Please take another look at the context below and see that this is talking about the Second Coming of Christ, NOT the day the heavens and earth pass away (which will be quite distant from the Second Coming"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory... "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." This completely changes and ignores the contextual meaning of what is actually being read. In context, the day and hour only the Father knows, is revealed in verse 35 of Matthew 24, as well as verse 31 in the Mark 13 parallel, both in the actual context of what we are reading.

The top misinterpretations causing the most confusion in the timing and details of prophetic events. I believe most here adhere to a future period of time as described in Daniel as a 7 year period called the covenant with many. This is the period of time describing the last kingdom of man’s rule before the return and rule of Jesus Christ as King of the earth for a 1000 years. This last kingdom will have 10 kingdoms and 10 kings over these kingdoms, and they will give their power and authority to the antichrist. These kingdoms are described as 10 toes in Daniel, and they are the 10 kingdoms described in Revelation. Most of the events in Revelation take place during this last 7 year period. There are many belief systems based on the exegesis of students of prophecy regarding the timing and details of prophetic events. The misinterpretations of the context and subject matter of the verses and their true meanings, have led many students down the wrong path of having a full correct perspective of how the timing and details of these 7 years will unfold. 1. Matthew 24 verse 36: As I have stated in other posts, this verse in my opinion is the most misinterpreted in the Bible. Most believe and base their prophetic exegesis on this verse being the resurrection and rapture and/or the physical return of Christ. The day no one knows but the Father only is revealed by Christ in the context of what you are reading in Matthew 24: 34-36. It is the day the heavens and earth pass away. This verse is used out of context more than any other in prophetic discussions, and is the cause of most of the errors in many exegesis of prophetic belief systems. 2. Ezekiel 38 and 39: Many miss the placement of this battle in the prophetic perspective. Some place this event after the 1000 years reign of Christ. Some place it at the mid point of the tribulation. God tells us in Ezekiel 38 and 39, this battle takes place just prior to a 7 period, in the latter days. This battle will subdue the 3 kingdoms described in Daniel, and set the world’s condition for 10 kings to arise and place antichrist in power. The covenant with many will be presented to the earth’s people after the Ezekiel battle. 3. The seal, trumpet, and bowls of wrath judgments. Most adhere and believe these 3 series of judgments are consecutive. I believe they are concurrent in their unfolding. The 1st of each series start at a different point during the 7 year period, but the 7th of each series happens at the same instant, immediately following the 6th seal. The 1st seal releases antichrist to rise to power. The 2nd seal parallels Ezekiel 38 and 39. The covenant with many follows the 2nd seal and the Ezekiel battle. Seals 3-5 are opened throughout the remaining years of the tribulation. The 6th seal is opening at the end of the tribulation as Christ IS returning to the earth. The 1st trumpet is blown near the midpoint of the 7 years (AOD) and trumpets 2 through 6 are blown through the last half (3 1/2 years) of the 7 years. The 1st bowl is poured out near the end of the tribulation, these 7 judgments are so severe (IMHO) no life could be sustained for any long period of time. The bowls 1-6 will be poured out in the last months and days before Christ returns. The 7th seal, the 7th trumpet, and the 7th bowl of wrath, are opened, blown, and poured out at the same instant in time as Christ feet touch the ground causing the great earthquake described in each event, ending the 7 year period. 4. Paul’s descriptive of the last trump. Most believe this is the 7th trumpet, or as happening near, or at the end of the 7 years. However, if you place yourself there in the audience at that time, as a student of prophecy, you would have known from the O.T. and the celebrated feast and traditions of that time, exactly what day Paul was referring to, when he said the resurrection and rapture happens at the last trump. The people there knew it was the feast of trumpets. Paul actually revealed the exact day and hour the resurrection and rapture will occur on, only the year is not revealed. 5. The wicked servants. Many believe these are Christians who have some how fallen away from their faith, but I believe they are the lost. The good servants are the saved, the bad/wicked servants are the lost. The sheep and the goats.

I'll take South Fork, thank you.

Man,...I only got one right, I guess I'm brain dead on those old shows.

My thoughts on this subject are as followed, based on my study and un-dogmatic opinion. There are two issues to address. One is what last trump was Paul referring to, when he proclaimed the resurrection and rapture will happen at the last trump. There are several opinions of thought on this subject. I assume when we interpret last trump, we are talking about the last trump in a series, or the last trump of an event, and not the last trump ever to be heard. Surly there will be the sound of a trumpet blast heard again. With this I believe we can safely determine Paul is referring to the last trump of a series or event. Paul was speaking to the people of that time, (so the message was for us, but not to us) who did not have a New Testament, for it was still basically being lived, and the book of Revelation was a few decades away. With this, it is my opinion the answer to what last trump, was in the text the people of that time had, The O.T. When Paul said at the last trump, if you were in that audience, the first thing to come to your mind would have been the most prominent event celebrated having a series of trumpets being blown. The feast of trumpets would have been your immediate thought, for trumps are blown throughout this day, and at the end of the day, there is a last trump blast ending the day. However, if the Feast of Trumpets is when the last trump takes place, this literally means Paul announced the very day and the very hour of this last trump, only the year it takes place is not revealed. This however is only a problem if you believe Matthew 24:36 is referencing the resurrection and rapture. But, on a very close examination we can clearly see from the context of what we are reading in Matthew 24: 34-36, it clearly states the day and hour only the Father knows, is the day the heavens and earth pass away, and not the day of the resurrection and rapture. So my opinion is, the resurrection and rapture will happen on a future feast of trumpets. I know this shoots imminence some what in the foot. But I believe imminence is heavily relying on the interpretation of Matthew 24:36 as the event of the resurrection and rapture when the context of verses 24-36, IMHO, clearly shows it is the day the heavens and earth pass away. This day happens after the 1000 year reign of Christ, as described by Peter, and the last chapters of Revelation. Numbers chapter 10, gives instruction of gathering at trumpet blast, and this may possibly be in reference to what Paul’s message was about, but I believe the Feast of Trumpets is the correct day Paul is referring to. Also, the Feast of Trumpets is next in line for Christ to fulfill. I see the answer to "what last trump" as being a OT referenced event, and not a NT one.

Hello Omega, I believe the comments in reference to my initial post to you regarding #7 on your list may have caused the sideways motion in the threads direction, my apologies, this wasn't my intent. I guess some topics are held close to some's belief system, and when something new is presented to consider, some may fill strongly to defend that core element establishing their system of belief if it disagrees with their exegesis. Thanks for commenting Rev, I know these things happen without intention sometimes, I am guilty myself. I wasn't trying to point and wag a finger at anyone, just hoping to steer the thread back on course. Your comment about how people react when something threatens the integrity of a belief they hold, is noted and I think an accurate assessment. While I did not start these threads on things that the Bible does and does not say to cause controversy, I knew they were never-the-less, controversial topics. When people respond with their opposing ideas and passionately defend them, I actually think that is a good thing. Getting the ideas out on the table, let's those who have not previously looked critically at various positions, see the quality and the quantity of the evidence or scriptural basis of various positions, instead of just accepting what they have heard and assumed for a long time. I can say something, you can say something, others say things as well, and even if we do not change our minds, we at least contribute to the understanding of all who read these threads, as to why people believe what they believe. It is my hope that this leads to better understanding, less misunderstanding, and the development of critical analysis, that may prevent deception, in a time where deception will be increasing as the day approaches. May we all have ears to hear, what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev. 2:29) Your welcome, By chance, have you had the time to reread my initial post regarding #7 on your list, concerning Matthew 24:36?

I saw a pair of Shaquille O'neal's shoes he wore when he played for LSU years ago at a restaurant in Baton Rouge. I don't care who you are, that's a Big Foot.

Hello Omega, I believe the comments in reference to my initial post to you regarding #7 on your list may have caused the sideways motion in the threads direction, my apologies, this wasn't my intent. I guess some topics are held close to some's belief system, and when something new is presented to consider, some may fill strongly to defend that core element establishing their system of belief if it disagrees with their exegesis.

If we keep in mind that the New Covenant supersedes all other covenants with men in the past, then it follows that these 24 elders are not OT patriarchs or OT elders of Israel, but actual church elders who have distinguished themselves in their service to Christ in local assemblies. Since the New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Church, it also follows that these 24 elders will be gathered around God's throne eternally. Since 12 is the number of Divine Government (hence 12 thrones for 12 apostles ruling the 12 tribes of Israel), 12 x 2 = 24 indicates that these elders are somehow connected with God's government in His eternal Kingdom. That they have crowns on their heads further confirms this. Hello Ezra, I agree, your thoughts are not only possible but probable. I'm not dogmatic, the identities of the elders isn't revealed. I believe they could be pre-flood or old testament patriarchs, but I agree your summation is valid.

The 24 elders existed before Jesus ascended. No one will have their redeemed (immortal) bodies before Jesus returns. Yes I agree the 24 elders are more than likely old testament or even pre-flood patriarchs. And yes Jesus is the first fruit to receive a resurrected immortal body. This happened at His resurrection 2000 years ago. I didn't say or indicate the elders received their glorified bodies before Christ. The 24 elders will receive their bodies when the trump sounds and all the dead in Christ rise (first), and then those believers alive will be raptured immediately afterwards. My point is as scripture indicates, the 24 elders are present in the throne room with their crowns and glorified bodies as redeemed resurrected men before the 1st seal is opened by Christ. So, Revelation 4 shows the spirits of the 24 elders? And Revelation 5 shows them immortal? No,...nowhere does it indicate the elders are spirits. Everything they do throughout the book of Revelation indicates they have a physical capacity, a physical essence. They have their resurrected immortal bodies throughout John's witness of the events. They themselves declare they are redeemed men. They have been rewarded crowns that they cast before the throne, they are clothe in white raiment, this to me indicates they have their resurrected bodies and have been judged at the Bema. The question is, are they present in the throne room when the 1st seal is open?

The 24 elders existed before Jesus ascended. No one will have their redeemed (immortal) bodies before Jesus returns. Yes I agree the 24 elders are more than likely old testament or even pre-flood patriarchs. And yes Jesus is the first fruit to receive a resurrected immortal body. This happened at His resurrection 2000 years ago. I didn't say or indicate the elders received their glorified bodies before Christ. The 24 elders will receive their bodies when the trump sounds and all the dead in Christ rise (first), and then those believers alive will be raptured immediately afterwards. My point is as scripture indicates, the 24 elders are present in the throne room with their crowns and glorified bodies as redeemed resurrected men before the 1st seal is opened by Christ.

I read through your list in your initial post. I agree mostly with the realization these events will absolutely happen, but we may disagree on the timing and details on how the events will unfold, and this is perfectly fine. I will critique number 7 on your list though, for you to consider this thought, and opinion of it. In my humbled opinion Matthew 24:36, is the most misinterpreted verse in the Bible, simply because verse 36 is always read by itself and never quoted or understood in context of the verses before it. If you read the verses in context with verse 36, you can clearly see the day no one knows but the Father only is revealed. Neither the day of the resurrection and rapture, or the day of Christ’s physical return are mentioned, however the day the heavens and earth pass away is identified in the context when reading verses 34-36. Matthew 24: 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. So if you are reading in context, when CHRIST says, “but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only“, and you ask what day and hour, where in the context of what we are reading is there any indication, Christ is referring to the resurrection and rapture or His physical return, when in verse 35, He reveals the day. The day the heavens and earth pass away is identified in context as the day no one knows but Father only. This day is described in detail as a judgment event by Peter and in the last chapters of Revelation as well. This day happens after the 1000 year millennium rule of Christ. As for a pre-trib resurrection and rapture. I believe a study of the 24 elders in Revelation will clearly indicate to a student of prophetic studies, the event happens before the 1st seal is open. If you adhere to the translation from Textus Receptus, the 24 elders are identified as redeemed men, and have been given their crowns which they cast before the throne of GOD, apparently from the Bema judgment, and I’d assume from this, they have their resurrected bodies. The question to then ask is, are they present in the throne room of heaven before the 1st seal is open?? And if so, the resurrection and rapture, in my humbled opinion has to be a pre-trib event.