Esther4:14

What people don't realize about the Zionism that is described by God through the prophets is that this Zionism required discernment. The discernment that caused Abraham to leave and go to a land flowing with milk and honey. The discernment that caused Joseph to interpret the Pharoah's dream, not to return to the land of his father's when his brothers came to Egypt. The discernment to know not to try to take the land when the people were found to be disobedient in the wilderness. The discernment to know when to take the land after the ones who were disobedient in the wilderness had all passed away. The discernment to know when to stand up to deliver the people in the book of Judges. The discernment to warn the people of their disobedience that came from the prophets. The discernment to know when to marry a woman who was a prostitute to be used to give a message from the Lord to the people like Hosea. The discernment to know that there was still judgement on the people of God and that they were not going to prosper if they returned to the land until the words of the prophet Jeremiah had been fulfilled like Daniel. There was always something to discern. So, discernment regarding the Jews does not always mean inheriting the land. In fact, many times it has nothing to do with it, but it is discernment that demonstrates this Zionism that people speak of all the time. The people who were called His people should be able to discern the times. But, Jesus told them, " You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?" (Luke 12:56). Zionism, according to the Bible, is about knowing when to go and when to stay, which could otherwise be called obedience. Therefore, "Zionism," in our modern world before the return of Christ means repenting and accepting Christ as our Savior. What we are seeing right now is nothing different than when Saul made the offering because he did not want to wait for Samuel to arrive (1 Samuel 13). Therefore, it is only an assumption that what is happening is the will of God because they use the term "Zionism." The Bible teaches that Israel has and will disobey the commands of God and suffer judgment for it. How we are so quick to assume that this is some sort of Holy manifestation without any real consideration of what the reality of Zionism is in contrast to what the Bible teaches us about the history of Israel, continues to confuse me over and over again. Zionism, as described by the people at True Torah Jews in a letter they published as an Arabic ad, is described as, "one hundred years ago, the idea of Zionism was tragically conceived, its malicious intent: to turn authentic Torah Judaism into a new-fangled culture of nationalism and rebellion, directly contradicting the Torah. Immediately upon its founding, Jewish leaders and rabbis protested forcefully against its ideas." (http://www.truetorahjews.org/we-want-coexist-peace-ttj-publishes-arabic-ad I know this is true because I belong to a family that was Jewish Zionists, and I will tell you that they can and will do anything and everything they have to do to have what they want accomplished. I was frequently told how everything that happened to them was unfair and that he deserved to be like a king and that when the Messiah came, this would be the end of Christianity. When I was younger, my father would tell me that the Christians were confused and that when the Messiah said depart from me for I never knew you, He would be telling the people of the church this. That the people of the church were going to hear depart from me I never knew you. My father was an extreme case and he was very angry. I don't like remembering what he said or remembering him in general. For a long time, I wanted to blend in with the people in the church as though this time in my life never happened. I thought I could be one of them, but He continues to show me that I have some small responsibility to find a way to share what I experienced at least once in my life, and if no one will hear, the burden will still be lifted. I also know through many oral teachings that the Bible was made into a strategic instrument of war. However, I was always only a little girl during this time because when I started rebelling a little bit in high school, my father had me taken and "punished" you could say under another system of law. I was sentenced so to speak, because what I did made it so that I would not be useful. There is a man name Rabbi Josef Antebi who has a similar testimony of his experience with Zionists. I believe him because I had a similar thing happen to me. However, I was only 17 when it happened and I still find it hard to articulate. But, Jesus gave me a new life when my life seemed to end because of this event. I am not angry about it, nor do I stereotype all Jews because of my experience. I seek and try to find to love all people which has led me to find people like the people at True Torah Jews who help me feel safe again, because all people have a choice, and people I don't know should not be blamed for what people I do know did to me. However, I think that people are greatly confused that "Zionism" really is what they want it to be. I know this is in part because of the command to love. I have met many people who are willing to believe many things because of a desire to love, but there is also a warning to wise as serpents and as innocent as doves, which I hope people will consider as well (Matthew 10:16). In conclusion, there is no feasible way that God is a "Zionist" according to the modern definition of the word. He is a God of love and justice. The message this man gives, is an early warning sign that the son of perdition will be revealed soon.

That was probably one of the most offensive videos I have ever seen. He says "anti-semites" say that the Jews already own the US, but if that were true, we would not be in so much debt. This is technically not a good argument because yes we would be in so much debt if the debtor were a Gentile. " "You shall not charge interest to your countrymen: interest on money, food, or anything that may be loaned at interest. "You may charge interest to a foreigner, but to your countrymen you shall not charge interest, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land which you are about to enter to possess." (Deuteronomy 23:19-20). Either way, the man who presents this video does so in an exceptionally offensive way that makes me think of none other than the agenda of the son of perdition hoping to dominate the empires of the middle east with the intention of finding a more legitimate way to persecute believers in Christ by establishing a false Messiah for the Jewish people. A false Messiah would create a more legitimate argument to persecute believers in Christ because they could assert that the ministry of Jesus was false in light of the demonstrations of this false Messiah. Establishing a Jewish state without repentance towards Christ will bring nothing but persecution for the church in the future. Information like this should not be encouraged as a positive direction by those who represent the body of Christ. I am just grateful that I know that all Jews don't support Zionism and are waiting for the Messiah to return so they can inherit the land again rather than trying to force the world to accept their supremacy in order to reclaim the land.

I don't think that the tribulation is a punishment for Jews or towards Jews for rejecting Jesus. What happens is that the nations will have to be accountable for what we have done, more than likely, individually and collectively. Individually: Romans 14:12 "So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God." and collectively: " Whoever shuts their ears to the cry of the poor will also cry out and not be answered." Because as a nation, we can turn away and oppress other nations, which is what Israel was rebuked for often. " Woe to those who enact evil statutes And to those who constantly record unjust decisions, So as to deprive the needy of justice And rob the poor of My people of their rights, So that widows may be their spoil And that they may plunder the orphans. Now what will you do in the day of punishment, And in the devastation which will come from afar? To whom will you flee for help? And where will you leave your wealth?" (Isaiah 10:1-3). This type of thing becomes a collective sin because it usually takes more than one person to make something like this possible. So, what I believe is taking place in prophecy concerning the tribulation, will look something like the different messages Isaiah gave to the nations. They all explained a different judgement for a different reason. Many of the prophets would often dish out collective judgments to the surrounding nations because God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). Therefore, as we approach the fulfillment of these prophecies, we should be looking for how we can repent and become blameless in an individual way and in a collective way: or, as the prophecy puts it, we want to start discerning how to "'Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues," (Revelation 18:4). This describes a sort of collective repentance. So, the tribulation will not be for the Jews for rejecting Christ; however, they could still be held accountable for this collectively when the prophecy is being fulfilled and judged as one of the nations rather than rather than esteemed as one who keeps the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17), which is a sort of humiliation in and of itself for the people who were called His people, to be judged with the nations who were not called His people. However, this is what the prophecies suggest because when we look at the prophecy of Ezekiel and Revelation for example, they are not describing two different prophecies for the Jews and the Gentiles. They are describing the same prophecy for the Jew and the Gentile who believe in Christ, but because we are living in a time where there is a great desire to separate the two, which is primarily promoted by the Jewish community who continue to want to retain the same distinction they were given in a worldly sense as the nation of Israel. We are building something more of a caste system within the church rather than the body of Christ and we are not hearing an integrative approach in the interpretation of prophecy because of the influence of the Jewish community. They don't want the church to see themselves as being equal with the Jewish people, and people can argue that this is not happening; but it is happening, and the message is primarily from a Jewish influence, which is why the church needs to become even more discerning. So, we are hearing that this prophecy is for the Jew and that prophecy is for the Christian when we know there is no spiritual distinction between the two (Galatians 3:28), because the message of the Gospel was not for the Gentile, while the Jew would remained saved as a son of the covenant of Abraham. Christ came to save the children of Abraham, so the prophecy is integrative and the rewards are intended to be given to the children of Abraham first and then the nations (Romans 1:16), and this is why the message of Christ proves pretribulation rapture to be false because the prophecy makes no distinction between the two. The distinction is being manufactured and is what the scriptures refer to as the deception capable of deceiving the elect if it were possible (Matthew 24:24). So, the other nations will be held accountable in some form of collective way as well, and the only real escape from this judgement towards the nations is to seek Christ and His kingdom. This is the only way for a Jew or Gentile to escape the wrath of God. For example, we are essentially involved in many things as Christians that we don't need to be, in my opinion. We could collectively withdraw from and repent of things that would be acting in greater obedience to Christ in a collective way. Like military endeavors, for example. If David could beat Goliath, we should hypothetically be able to be neutral as a nation. Switzerland remained neutral through both wars, which is a very interesting paradox to consider what we have the potential to do, if we could collectively have the faith to do it.

Hi woundeddog. I appreciate your sincerity in knowing that you need His sacrifice for atonement. However, I don't think this is what the crowd represents. The crowd represents the flesh and our propensity to be sheep in need of a shepherd. This is what happens when you follow the wrong shepherd, which can happen to us as believers. Then, the illustration becomes one of yelling "crucify Him," with a crowd because there is a crowd to belong with. That is a key feature of this passage because we can make this same mistake at any time because it would make us feel better at the time, to be part of a crowd. To belong to something. The question becomes whether being a Christian becomes, or is the same thing, only following a crowd who can lead you into error. Being a Christian is something entirely different that what we see taking place before our Lord gives up His life as an offering for the sins of the whole world. Being a Christian is to take up our own cross when the crowd is yelling "crucify Him.". There is really so much to gain from a discussion of this passage. Thank you for bringing it up.

Oh my goodness woundeddog. I have seriously asked myself this same question every time I pass through this scripture on my way reading through the Bible. The truth is that I don't know one way or the other, but it is always such a striking warning to me to not get carried away by a collective opinion. Just because everyone says something is true, does not mean it is true.

No, you don't speak for everyone on this board. Personally, I support True Torah Jews financially and with prayers because I support the Jewish people, I just don't support political Zionism and the creation of a Jewish state that rejects Christ in light of what the prophecy has to say. What we are seeing with the creation of this Jewish state that rejects Christ is a deception that is spreading trying to make itself legitimate by having people worship the Jewish people as superior based on genealogical distinction and not based on righteousness or repentance, which is the requirement for the Jewish people to return to the land. So, I support the people at True Torah Jews because while they still use rabbinical teachings, which I don't agree with, they still reject the false teaching of Zionism. Therefore, I do believe it is likely that when the veil is lifted and a remnant is chosen to fulfill Revelation 7 and 11, it will be from this group of Jews who reject the modern institution of Zionism, which is the false worship of the Jewish people. Therefore, Zionism is the same thing as idolatry. No where does the Bible indicate that I am to worship the Jewish people and Christ. This is a false teaching. I also find it quite a contradiction that most people see the abomination of desolation being built by the present state of Israel where the Antichrist will reside and the mark of the beast will also subsequently be implemented; yet, they will still choose to see this same endeavor as some sort of Holy manifestation. Therefore, there is a hypocrisy in our present support of Zionism that also ignores what Revelation 11 has to say about two witnesses coming to rebuke the people in the same place where our Lord was crucified. However, I do believe it will continue to be built because it does say that the beast will be given authority for 42 months (Revelation 13), which still does not mean I have to support the premise of a state of Israel.

This is really a simple matter of an expired copyright preventing distribution expiring, not a sudden resurgence of interest as though the book was sitting and collecting dust all this time by a collective boycott. Therefore, there has been no shift from lack of interest to a sudden interest. It is simply that the ban on printing the book has expired because in about twenty more years, it will be one hundred years since world war 2. The book is now transitioning to the public domain forum where there could be very benign interest in the book. For example, Germans might be interested in understanding how their country came to be in the position they are. Who was this man that was the leader of their country at one point as they still experience the remnants of damage that war left behind. Maybe it would be healing to them. Maybe it could help them continue to develop a new worldview for their country in the aftermath. Many people might have the same benign interest in reading this book as they do in studying Ghengis Khan or Nero or any of the many tyrannical leaders that have existed throughout history. However, basically Hitler can't be responsible for anyone's choice in what they use his writing for anymore. That is the responsibility of the individuals and scripture says the wheat and tares are growing together until the end. So, there are two ways to see something like Mein Kampf inevitably becoming the property of the public domain, for positive outcomes or negatives ones. Personally, I did find it interesting that Hitler designed all of his insignias from his passion as an artist. I did not know that when I was looking at my history photo book of World War two that I have. I was using their uniforms as inspiration for the villains in a story I was writing for a class so it was interesting to learn that he personally designed some of these things. There is always two ways to use information that exist in this fallen state always, for righteousness or unrighteousness.

Hi Trevor, Basically, it is the fact that they reject Jesus as the Messiah and somehow or the other accept what resembles John 1:1, that is interesting because I do think the teachers in Judaism are responsible for a great degree of oppression of our understanding in the church. If you will read in Maccabees and Josephus' War of the Jews, there are several times when alliances were formed between Jews and the Romans in order for them to gain advantages, or for certain people to gain advantages. This does not mean these alliances were not a detriment to the Jews as a whole, or that some people who were innocent didn't suffer with their failed efforts to protect themselves and their positions. Nevertheless, even in the Bible, Feastus is said to have wished to do the Jews a favor concerning the trial of Paul. Therefore, I have a strong suspicion that these alliances affected the church and our understanding because the church sought to bring the scriptures to the Gentiles, in particular. There are many other reasons the Jews rejected the message of Christ during the years of the early church and why the church using the scriptures is an offense to them that would be a motivation to oppress our understanding. That would be why this rabbinical writing basically says what John 1:1 says while the Gospel remains rejected, which means what is written in the Gospel is possibly an understanding of something else that the church does not have the privelage to know anymore. More than likely, because of the same reasons there was conflict for the church of Galatia. This doesn't mean the church didn't have opposition in other ways, but in terms of the scriptures, I believe oppression is created primarily by a Jewish influence because they are the original owners of them. It is kind of like playing tug of war with them, which is an interesting aspect of the time we live in and our capacity to research this possibility in a greater way.

Hi Trevor, I am very impressed with what you have contributed throughout the discussion. I am inclined to agree with your conclusion that "there is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God." I have questions about what has become accepted as Trinity doctrine within western churches because I know that there have been many attempts to oppress our understanding within the history of the church. This oppression of our understanding concerns me along with the ready acceptance that we have concluded some sort of understanding about the unity Christ describes in the Gospels when we cannot know what it means to be created in "our" image, and we will not know what this means until we are like Him and can see Him as He is (Genesis 1:26; 1 John 3:2). Romans 10:9 says "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Therefore, I wonder why people make this subject a salvation issue. I do not believe that my salvation is in question if I question aspects of Trinity doctrine, because this also does not mean I reject it altogether. I just don't think it is a conclusion to the subject regarding the unity He says He has with the Father and I find it difficult to understand how we can reject the possibility that our understanding of the subject is oppressed in some way. However, I think it is an effort of great discernment, which should not be taken lightly either. Anyways, I was reading something interesting today related to this subject from The Zohar with regard to the presence of the word in the creation of the world. The Zohar says "Seeking to be revealed, to be named, it garbed itself in a splendid, radiant garment and created (elleh) these. (Elleh) attained the name: these letters joined with those, culminating in the name (Elohim). Until it created (ellah), it did not attain the name (Elohim). Based on this mystery, those who sinned with the Golden Calf said (Elleh), These are your gods, O Israel!' (Exodus 32:8). Just as is combined with (elleh), so the name (Elohim) is constantly polysemous. Through this mystery, the universe exists." (page 8 Zohar Pritzker Edition). Then, it goes on to recount some sort of vision of Elijah coming to give this message of wisdom basically saying that God attained the name Elohim by creating the universe and that prior to this, He did not exist in this same position? Reading it is a little bit like reading doublethink. Anyways, it then continues on to personify the Hebrew letters as being capable of speech independently. "These, I remember (Psalms 42:5). 'With my mouth I mentioned them, in my yearning I poured out my tears, drawing forth these letters. Then I conduct them from above to the house of Elohim, to be Elohim, like Him." (page 9). So, these letters represent "our" image? Or, in other words, in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God (John 1:1). Then it goes on to say that these letters were with God for a long time and when it came time to begin the creation of the world, they asked for permission to be used to create the world. One by one they are rejected until bet was eventually chosen. "The blessed Holy One replied, 'Indeed, by you I will create the world. You will be the beginning of Creation." (page 16). So, apparently, bet was the letter used to create the world. But, it was even more interesting to me what He says to yod and vav and he. He says to yod, "It is enough for you to be engraved in Me, to be inscribed in Me. My desire culminates in you. You should not be uprooted from My name," (page 15). And, to the other two letters, He says, "Vav, it is enough for you and (he) to be letters of My name, included int he mystery of My name, engraved and carved in My name. I will not create the world by either of you." (page 16). Personally, I do not believe the letters of the Hebrew alphabet are personified the way the Zohar suggests. Reading the Zohar does cause one to realize what Jesus meant when He said that they love to offer long prayers to get people to think they are special (Luke 20:47). I would describe a lot of it as this or that Rabbi boasting of his revelation, which is often long and drawn out and makes me somewhat grateful the creation account is so brief and to the point. But, it is particularly interesting to consider the many similarities between the passage from John 1:1 and these reflection from the Zohar because the writers reject the Gospel. Their writings even prove what the Gospel says in John 1:1 to a certain degree even while they are simultaneously rejected. And, this passage does confirm to me that in some way we are oppressed in our understanding of what we call the Trinity and that it is possible to even gain a greater understanding on the subject before we go to meet the Lord from what is available for research today. I also enjoy the citations from this book and plan to get a copy myself for further study on the subject. Take care

It goes way beyond your self assessed declaration, which still assumes that you are able to make the judgement that someone is either a false teacher or anti-Semite. I have also been here long enough to know what I never see reflected in anything you have to say, like kindness, patience, love, etc; therefore, you are not qualified at all to make any judgement towards others, period.

I don't think I have ever seen many instances where Shiloh agrees with anyone. Everything is either misquoted or meticulously rebuked on a regular basis to demonstrate something...I am not sure what. Maybe that we should vote for him for President because clearly he is always right and smarter than everyone to the point that no one hardly makes a valid point worth considering without thorough correction of some kind. I think you have demonstrated a lot of self control and grace in your response. It is an encouragement to me to see this.

Unfortunately, difficult people do get dementia, and it can make them even more ornery. So, it is possible that she exhibiting symptoms of early dementia, which is a broad diagnosis and can just as easily mean she is experiencing normal signs of old age and not early signs of something more progressive like Alzheimer's. But, her method of handling this situation seems to be more habitual and it hurts when your in laws exclude you from conversation like your not really part of the family, or like she is almost criticizing her son for his choice in marrying you by bringing this issue up with him and not with you directly. It is something I think about a lot because I have a son. I could just never imagine behaving the way some women behave to their daughters in-laws when my son gets married someday. To me, it would still seem that I should be the example for a young girl the same age as my son. Just a tiny girl in comparison to myself. I just can't imagine the way some women treat young girls. It doesn't seem right to me at all. So, I am sorry this is happening to you. It is unfair, but I am glad your husband recognized this and defended you so you dont have to feel completely isolated from the discussion.

Well technically that is the point of the post. So then what you are saying is that Christian colleges should be supported because there is a decline in quality as the result of the influence of the state? I would be saying something of the same thing and that going to a Christian college still provides a wider variety of opportunities for freedom of speech in regards to matter of spirituality then secular schools do. But, the states expectations in return for funding is an issue for the church all across the board. It is one of my primary complaints with the healthcare system too. I think hospitals are greatly hindered by what they cant do because they receive funding from the state. I think small business is hindered by state requirements. Economically, we are actively being enslaved and oppressed, which still has nothing to do with whether it is important or not to maintain the freedom to discuss subjects that may or may not introduce spiritual principles, from a Biblical perspective. We should take advantage of this for as long as we are able to and seek to maintain this freedom for as long as we can that we may be equipped to discuss matters of fai in the complex modern world we live in.

You know, I bet you everyone who writes for that GotQuestions site has attended a Christian college. It is what I think of every time you post one of their responses that there writing style reflects an objectivity that I am familiar with from school. The way they include all points of view with an effort to still be persuasive towards a Biblical conclusion demonstrates the exercise of objectivity I was talking about. Here on the forum, there are several boards that have a message pinned about being careful to not present a lop sided message, which the authors of GotQuestions seem to be trying to provide. This is exactly the kind of activity that is practiced in faith-based schools, and something I often think people outside of this environment don't seem to understand very well in the body of Christ. I think this is evidenced by the way I have seen people talk to each other over differences of opinion. Instead of being able to keep peaceful discussions, it is like people almost become tribal and take sides and draw lines. I don't know why it would be so hard to find something we could agree on with another person so that there was a greater opportunity to keep a peaceful discussion. I don't see how this would represent backsliding for me to do in most cases. But, apparently, it is grounds for a witch hunt at times and this is exactly why we need faith-based colleges to get rid of this sort of dross.

Well, then the law might be the final nail in the coffin in regard to what your saying. What it would do is restrict what majors a faith-based institution could provide to ministry positions. This would confirm an effort to control Christian education to the demands of outside influences, which is a negative aspect present in our Christian education system, I would agree. However, this still does not mean that there aren't many good things that would be hindered as well if we are legally not allowed to provide majors outside of ministry in Christian colleges. I think one of the best classes I took in Christian college was economics and being able to apply a Biblical perspective to a book called Naked Economics:Undressing the Dismal Science. This was not a book with any sort of theological reflection of its own. I loved it and it was a fantastic experience, which I would never have been able to get in an state school. When comparing my experience with Christian college to the community college I went to, Christian college gave me an opportunity to discuss faith with a variety of subjects. Whereas, if I had continued in the community college I went to, I would have been required to censure everything in the face of the freedom professors had to condemn religion. Oh, if I could have videotaped the speech my sociology teacher gave about the hypocrisy of Christianity one day. So even with the pressure to adopt liberal views in our schools, they are not a lost cause by any means, and we should care about whether we continue to have the freedom to provide them. It would be a terrible thing to lose. I have had great experiences in Christian colleges that I went to which has greatly surpassed my experience in state schools.