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Everything posted by unworthydude

  1. 7 Mountains = 7 fallen angels?

    Yes! There is such a big picture playing out. Israel wanted a king other than their true king so God is going to give a Satanic king to them in full strength (1Sa 8:18). Especially after they murdered their true Son king, I believe when Satan entered Judas to betray Jesus for them, it showed that they have as their king the fallen angel. This is also shown in verses like Rev 2:9, 3:9. They have a covenant with death or to him who has the power of death (Heb_2:14, Isa 22:15-18, 1Co_15:26). The king of the dead and his underworld horde will come upon them in conquest as their messiah king figure (Dan 8:11). Look at Isa 22, at how the "strong man" (Mat 12:29), Satan figuratively named Shebna, their current peg or ruler, will be removed when Christ, figuratively named Eliakim the more sure peg is installed... Isaiah 22:15-25 Thus says the Lord GOD of hosts, “Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him: (16) What have you to do here, and whom have you here, that you have cut out here a tomb for yourself, you who cut out a tomb on the height and carve a dwelling for yourself in the rock? (17) Behold, the LORD will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you (18) and whirl you around and around, and throw you like a ball into a wide land. There you shall die, and there shall be your glorious chariots, you shame of your master's house. (19) I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your station. (20) In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, (21) and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your sash on him, and will commit your authority to his hand. And he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. (22) And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. (23) And I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father's house. (24) And they will hang on him the whole honor of his father's house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. (25) In that day, declares the LORD of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a secure place will give way, and it will be cut down and fall, and the load that was on it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken.”
  2. 7 Mountains = 7 fallen angels?

    To continue my discussion with Last Daze, we started talking about Satan, the fallen angels, and the abyss so I wanted to start a discussion on that topic and share my thoughts and get feedback without derailing other thread subjects. For any eschatology students, here are some possible insights that might be helpful as we all seek to learn together. I also highly recommend Michael Heiser’s book, “The Unseen Realm”, in your studies for a solid background to support the supernatural worldview I am promoting below. I won’t ruin his book for you, but only to say that in it, he reveals how the sin of the angels in Gen 6 became important to the biblical story and a passage in Deut 32:8 teaches that the nations were given over to the “Sons of God” and he defends that translation as a Hebrew scholar. He does an excellent job uncovering the hidden plot playing out behind the biblical scene. Well, with that in mind, here are some points to consider as well that I have discovered by God’s grace. In Rev 12:3 and other passages, we are told that Satan, the dragon, has seven heads and ten horns. It says later that the ten horns are kings who rule with the beast for an hour (Rev 17:12). I have always considered the seven mountains to be a succession of historical nations as I think most of you have until I came across several passages that led me to reconsider this position. I now propose that the seven heads are fallen arch-angels who are under their authority of a main fallen angel and that these angels will be temporarily loosed to come back as they did in Gen 6 to inflict specific judgments. Whereas the 10 horns are possibly just human kings who fight alongside the fallen angels (Ezek 38:9, 39:4 "you and all your hordes, and many peoples with you."). I am open to the 10 kings also being possible fallen angels too based on Daniel 7:20, "his companions". Here is my evidence so far for this proposition: * First, the angel that comes out of the abyss is called a king, prince or ruler in the greek (Rev 9:11). * Second, in Rev 12:7, 9, it repeatedly describes Satan and “his angels”. It makes sense that these angel kings are also on his head. This is similar to the king and his locust army that comes out the abyss who also have crowns (Rev 9:7). * Third, fallen angels elsewhere in scripture are also called princes or rulers in Daniel 10:13, 20-21. * Fourth, we see in Rev 9:14, that there are four angels bound and then released at the Euphrates. Could these angelic hosts who return explain the verse in Rev 17:10 “five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come,”? Contextually they are the previous five fallen angels in John’s timeframe; the wormwood star (Rev 8:10-11), the star of the abyss (Rev 9:1), with the four of the Euphrates (Rev 9:14) already fallen? * Fifth, the seventh king beast in Rev 17:10-11 comes from the abyss (Rev 11:7 and Rev 17:8). Why not the other 6 kings as well? * Sixth, In the book of 1 Enoch, seven fallen angels in the abyss are called mountains. The Bible says Enoch prophesied truth in Jude 1:14-15. Does that make him a true prophet based on the Deut 18 test? At least consider its statements on this subject. Here is a free online version of 1 Enoch. In Enoch chapter 56:1-15, he says that the angels return in v. 5, to instigate the Parthians and Medes (Iran). See also: Jer 51:11,28, Isa 13:17 1. And I saw there the hosts of the angels of punishment going, and they held scourges and chains of iron and bronze. 2. And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: 'To whom are these who hold the scourges going?' 3. And he said unto me: 'To their elect and beloved ones, that they may be cast into the chasm of the abyss of the valley. 4. And then that valley shall be filled with their elect and beloved, And the days of their lives shall be at an end, And the days of their leading astray shall not thenceforward be reckoned. 5. And in those days the angels shall return And hurl themselves to the east upon the Parthians and Medes: They shall stir up the kings, so that a spirit of unrest shall come upon them, And they shall rouse them from their thrones, That they may break forth as lions from their lairs, And as hungry wolves among their flocks. 6. And they shall go up and tread under foot the land of His elect ones, [And the land of His elect ones shall be before them a threshing-floor and a highway:] 7 But the city of my righteous shall be a hindrance to their horses. And they shall begin to fight among themselves, And their right hand shall be strong against themselves, And a man shall not know his brother, Nor a son his father or his mother, Till there be no number of the corpses through their slaughter, And their punishment be not in vain. 8 In those days Sheol shall open its jaws, And they shall be swallowed up therein And their destruction shall be at an end; Sheol shall devour the sinners in the presence of the elect.' What is especially interesting is that 1 Enoch chapter 18:11-15 then describes the angels who are in the abyss. The fallen angels are described as "mountains." 11. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns ⌈⌈of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns⌉⌉ of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth. 12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. 13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) ⌈for ten thousand years⌉.' He discusses further details in 1 Enoch chapter 19:1-2, 20:1-2 and in chapter 21:1-10 he again repeats the seven angels of the abyss as mountains. 1. And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. 2. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. 3. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. 4. Then I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' 5. Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? 6. These are of the number of the stars ⌈of heaven⌉, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' 7. And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. 8. Then I said: 'How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' 9. Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' 10. And he said ⌈⌈unto me⌉⌉: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.' * Seventh, the fallen angels seem to have corresponding holy angels over them that they contend with. - We can see this angelic contrast in Rev 12:7 Michael and his angels fight with the dragon and his angels. - We can see this angelic contrast in (Daniel 10:13, 20-21) with Gabriel and Michael contending with the princes of Persia and Greece. - We can see this angelic contrast with the four horns of the bronze or golden alter vs the four angels loosed at the Euphrates in (Rev 9:13-15). - We can see this angelic contrast in (Zech 1:19) with the four horns that scatter Judah vs. (Zech 1:20-21) the four craftsmen who come to cast down the horns. - We can see this angelic contrast in 1 Enoch chapters 18-21, there are 7 mountains describing the fallen angels in the abyss and then in 1 Enoch chapters 24-26, 31-32 we see seven heavenly mountains. Interestingly, Jerusalem is the mountain throne at the center of these mountains and in chapter 24:6, Michael is said to be “their leader”. - In Rev 5:6, Jesus the Lamb is said to have 7 horns and seven eyes of spirits throughout the earth. Are these the 7 arch-angels of heaven mentioned in 1 Enoch? - We can see this angelic contrast in the unholy antichrist who is called the “chief prince” in Ezek 39:1 and with the holy Archangel Michael also being called a "chief prince" in Dan 10:13 and in Rev 12:7 Michael has "his angels" and the dragon has "his angels". There seems to be a hierarchical reign within the two differing angelic camps. I have further research to add but will just leave it here to start the discussion. I’m hoping for others to come along and help dig further into this possible interpretation. Thanks for reading (This information posted has been my own research except for Heiser’s scriptural input of Deut 32:8)
  3. 7 Mountains = 7 fallen angels?

    I just wanted to share here what I posted elsewhere on the millennial question and how it relates to the fallen angels.
  4. 7 Mountains = 7 fallen angels?

    I found this passage in 1 Enoch 6:7-8 that's talking about the "lawless ones" or fallen angels and says, "These are their chiefs of tens."... And these are the names of their leaders: Samiazaz, their leader, Arakiba, Rameel, Kokabiel, Tamiel, Ramiel, Danel, ezeqeel, Baraqijal, Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. 8These are their chiefs of tens. I wonder if the seven angels in the abyss will also rule over a ten of lower angels? Just a thought.
  5. 7 Mountains = 7 fallen angels?

    What's further interesting and supportive of this idea that I'm proposing is that in Michael Heiser's books, he points out that in the ancient Mesopotamian writings, there were seven antediluvian or preflood angelic/demi-god like beings called "Apkallus" who produced human/divine offspring. After the flood, the seven Apkallu were sent to a place called Abzu or the underworld. Also, in 1 Enoch these fallen angels similarly teach and corrupt mankind as the Apkallu are also said to have taught mankind knowledge. The Mesopotamian world revered them but in the Bible and in 1 Enoch these fallen angels were condemned. Here are some links to further read on them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apkallu http://www.livius.org/articles/concept/apkallu/
  6. 7 Mountains = 7 fallen angels?

    I agree and I'm not opposed to this idea. I do think the fallen angels have kingdoms connected with them because in Daniel 10 we see them directly called the "the prince of Persia" or the "prince of Greece" who Gabriel and Michael fight with. These underworld agents are working behind the scenes but I wonder if they will take on a more physical form on earth. When I read things like, "the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast." in Rev 3:3 or “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?” in Rev 13:4 it makes me think this king is beyond earthly like the pre-flood angels are described in extra-biblical sources. Every description of the anti-christ has him as more than just a human king. I think it's at least possible that this agent of the abyss is more than just a human. Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! If that is true then is it not also possible that his 7 heads and 10 horns are also part of the league of underworld angels? I'm not sure it's all the same angel since we see. I also wonder, in Rev 17:10-11 the term "fallen" has been regarded as kingdoms that have passed on in history but could it mean fallen in the Rev 9:1 sense? There does seem to be a succession of fallen angels in Rev 17:10 considering that the 7th and the 8th is from the abyss and going back to perdition. Also, if we connect these fallen angels to kingdoms, do they have to be historical or can they be angelic beast kingdoms that are combined at that latter time suggested in Rev 13:2 by the leading fallen arch-angel? Could John simply be referring to the progressive falling of these angels according to their judgment timeline throughout the tribulation? It's good to think out loud you might say and try these ideas on for size. I appreciate your feedback and ideas. Look at how closely Rev 12:3-4 texts aligns the 7 heads and 10 horns to his fallen angels.. Revelation 12:3-4 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. (4) His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.
  7. Mystery Babylon status rev.17

    Btw, I really didn't say this earlier but I do agree and think that Jer 51 passage you mentioned is saying that Satan's kingdom is behind Jerusalem in that passage. All that I said harmonizes with that point. Satan's kingdom is not just a spiritual or invisible kingdom/mountain but that Jerusalem became a visual manifestation of satan's kingdom, among others, but especially Jerusalem as it was God's chosen mountain but became a satanic mountain but will be resurrected at Christ's return and become a great mountain (Dan 2:35). They became the pinnacle of evil among the nations (Ezek 5:5-9, 16:48, Isa 1:4-9). Jerusalem gets turned over to Satan much like in 1 Cor 5:5. It's delivered to destruction for the sake of the spiritual remnant. Ok, I'll put that new thread together later today. I'll be looking forward to sharing. Based on what you have shared, you will love that book by Heiser! I won't ruin it for you but he has truly put some excellent work into exposing the biblical theological and historical background of the fallen angels in a way that will give support and strengthen what you are possibly seeing. No, I'm not a shill but just a brother who thinks you're seeing something with Satan and the nations as I did and might be interested. I sort of pick up where Heiser left off. What I mean is that he doesn't really get too much into the eschatological ramifications of his findings so I sort of have explored further and have discovered some things by God's grace. I'm not sure what you'll think or agree but I appreciate your interest.
  8. Mystery Babylon status rev.17

    We'll have to create a different thread to discuss my satan, antichrist and abyss theory. Just let me know if you'd like me to share my view on that. You might be fascinated as it ties into what you have shared too. As far as the verse in Jeremiah 51 that you mentioned, I think the destroying mountain verse must be thoroughly read contextually to understand it. Babylon/Jerusalem is aptly called the destroying mountain or a kingdom that has corrupted and brought judgment on all the earth. This destruction is because of their immorality (Jer 26:6, Rev 19:2, 17:2, 8, 18:3, 24, Mic 2:10). As far as Jerusalem being called a mountain there are passages clearly supporting it being called "mountain" and being corrupt; (Oba 1:15-17, Zep 3:11, Joel 2:1, 3:17). As far as being a burned out mountain, Jerusalem is repeatedly described as being burned by fire at its final judgment (Isa 1:7, Ezek 5:2, 21:31-32, Amos 2:5, Oba 1:18, Rev 17:16). There are two groups of people represented in Jerusalem; (Zach 14:2, Gal 4:27, Isa 10:20-21). One is Babylon the Israel of the old covenant and the other is "My people", the remnant of Israel who are the children of promise of the new covenant. Jer 51 is complex because figurative language is involved in describing one of these two groups and needs to be distinguished. Babylon/Jerusalem, the evil heritage, does choose satan as their king at first. I agree with you in part but we'll have to continue that elsewhere as it gets heavily off the topic of Mystery Babylon. - Isaiah 10:20-22 In that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean on him who struck them, but will lean on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. (21) A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. (22) For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness. ..The antichrist will be their king for a short period after he seemingly makes a covenant, conquers and then he disperses them into exile. Btw, have you read Michael Heiser's book called, "The Unseen Realm"?
  9. Mystery Babylon status rev.17

    I don't think that does justice to the scriptural evidence. Close but no cigar. I offered to engage you on this subject but you didn't seem interested before?
  10. Mystery Babylon status rev.17

    I agree that satan will be king of Babylon. The prophets give witness. Much more can be said on this that's for sure. Those anti-Hamites!.. or were they the anti-Japhethites?! hahaha Biblical truth cannot be racist unless someone will claim Jesus was in John 8:44 or Paul in Romans 11:28. Rather, I see that Jesus and Paul were being loving by calling certain people out on their unbelief.
  11. Mystery Babylon status rev.17

    Love when somebody has actually read the prophets. I'm amazed how this Babylon subject can be discussed at length and hardly anybody considers the OT prophets. The speculations abound when there is no need. World religion? New York? America? Rome, Mecca? Why don't people start from the beginning instead of guessing from the back end of the descriptions given? Like I said, the prophets discuss this at length. Shouldn't scripture interpret scripture? It truly is a spiritually enlightened subject, thus the mystery. Luk 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
  12. Two very simple questions

    This is a good verse you mentioned to support what I see also. The Tribulation is for the Jews first then the nations after. Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem and represents the Israelites who sit on many waters, a.k.a., "peoples and multitudes and nations and languages". These are the initial "1/3 of the earth" judgments that take place to warn and witness to the nations of their judgment. Deuteronomy 4:27-31 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you. (28) And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. (29) But from there you will seek the LORD your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. (30) When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the LORD your God and obey his voice. (31) For the LORD your God is a merciful God. He will not leave you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers that he swore to them. It is because of the tribulation that they return, repent and become sealed. Someone could make the case that God is referring to them being sealed by His preknowledge which is highly probable.
  13. Two very simple questions

    That makes sense according to the prophets.. Zechariah 12:10-14 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. (11) On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. (12) The land shall mourn, each family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; (13) the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself, and their wives by themselves; (14) and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves. Isaiah 4:2-3 In that day the branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and honor of the survivors of Israel. (3) And he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem, Isaiah 10:20-23 In that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean on him who struck them, but will lean on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. (21) A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. (22) For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness. (23) For the Lord GOD of hosts will make a full end, as decreed, in the midst of all the earth. Joel 2:31-32 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. (32) And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls. Although the 144,000 are said to have been sealed prior to the angel unleashing his judgments. Rev 7:3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
  14. The harlot

    Yes, this shows that Jerusalem or Mystery Babylon represents not just a city as it is mentioned throughout Rev 17:18 and 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21 but it also represents a people who sit on many waters, a.k.a., "peoples and multitudes and nations and languages." (in Rev 17:15) The Old Testament used this kind of descriptive language all the time to describe and represent His people under their tribal cities of Samaria or Jerusalem or family names of Ephraim or Judah or even North or South for the ten tribes above the two tribes in the South. See Ezek. 16 and 23 I too sought to find why God's wrath is going to be unleashed on Jerusalem and I understood when I read this in Zach.. Zechariah 11:6-14 For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of this land, declares the LORD. Behold, I will cause each of them to fall into the hand of his neighbor, and each into the hand of his king, and they shall crush the land, and I will deliver none from their hand.” (7) So I became the shepherd of the flock doomed to be slaughtered by the sheep traders. And I took two staffs, one I named Favor, the other I named Union. And I tended the sheep. (8) In one month I destroyed the three shepherds. But I became impatient with them, and they also detested me. (9) So I said, “I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die. What is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed. And let those who are left devour the flesh of one another.” (10) And I took my staff Favor, and I broke it, annulling the covenant that I had made with all the peoples. (11) So it was annulled on that day, and the sheep traders, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD. (12) Then I said to them, “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver. (13) Then the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD, to the potter. (14) Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. Not only was Israel slated to die under the legal covenant that they broke through their many sins but then they murdered their Saviour. This verse above makes me cry because we can see Jesus's heart in their betrayal to weigh out 30 pieces of silver that Judas was paid by them to hand Him over so they could crucify Him. It also occurred to me that Satan had entered Judas (Luke 22:3) and that the Jews had made a transaction with the devil to have murdered the Son of Man. They gave themselves over to Satan. This nation is not a victim of circumstance as many in the church suppose today but the Bible points more to their culpability in pursuing such vile evil. Christians generally don't read the prophets and relegate it all to the past but most of their prophetic message is the culmination of Israel's story to which we have been born into but don't understand their current relationship to God biblically. We superimpose what we want to see rather than what the Bible has said. They have committed great evil and have not repented. I think as Christians we just want to love them because we have received grace for our sins and project our love on them without taking the truth of it all into account.
  15. The harlot

    Last Daze: I won't deny the fact that false religion and the fallen angels are in some way also behind the descriptive title of Mystery Babylon. I'd like to explore that with you but I just can't dismiss all the evidence that clearly regards Israel/ Jerusalem as a harlot city that the prophets have set their focus on and anticipating a catastrophic last days judgment and restoration. To refuse to see that there is more than a possible connection here seems to be shear bias and as a Christian we should have a philosophical epistemology that should be rational and empirical and not just mystical or subjective in its approach to knowledge. We should be able to accept what is said and work within that. There is no need to disqualify evidence when it can all be regarded and understood. Attributing and dismissing all evidence to the past does not work when contextually the writer gives clues to a future fulfillment. This reveals bias. Scriptures that can account for your arguments.. Israel and Babylon have the forehead of a whore. Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, and the spring rain has not come; yet you have the forehead of a whore; you refuse to be ashamed. Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations." Israel is called a Mother of Harlots. Hosea 1:2 When the LORD first spoke through Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea, “Go, take to yourself a wife of whoredom and have children of whoredom, for the land commits great whoredom by forsaking the LORD.” Hosea 2:2-5 “Plead with your mother, plead— for she is not my wife, and I am not her husband— that she put away her whoring from her face, and her adultery from between her breasts; (3) lest I strip her naked and make her as in the day she was born, and make her like a wilderness, and make her like a parched land, and kill her with thirst. (4) Upon her children also I will have no mercy, because they are children of whoredom. (5) For their mother has played the whore; she who conceived them has acted shamefully. For she said, ‘I will go after my lovers, who give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, my oil and my drink.’ Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.” The "all who had been slain" argument is easily accounted for because you are absolutely right. Let me explain.. In the scriptures, the anti-christ, fallen angel of the abyss, world ruler is stated to rule from Jerusalem and so the devil's children will encompass the city and the religion who's people have been behind all the slain on earth. This argument can easily be harmonized.
  16. The harlot

    When you have Israel being called a whore in the last days scenario, how can you discount that so easily with arguments that don't actually rebut at all the biblical statements made? Strikes me of just intellectual dishonesty to not even acknowledge the plain reading found throughout the prophets of Israel being a whore who God will judge at the end for breaking his covenant. Evidence should matter to a Christian. The word harlot was not just used historically but used prophetically in the passages sited. Please reread them in context. Reducing them down to your minimalized perspective doesn't account for the truth they reveal.
  17. The harlot

    Nahum 3:1-5 Woe to the bloody city, all full of lies and plunder— no end to the prey! (2) The crack of the whip, and rumble of the wheel, galloping horse and bounding chariot! (3) Horsemen charging, flashing sword and glittering spear, hosts of slain, heaps of corpses, dead bodies without end— they stumble over the bodies! (4) And all for the countless whorings of the prostitute, graceful and of deadly charms, who betrays nations with her whorings, and peoples with her charms. (5) Behold, I am against you, declares the LORD of hosts, and will lift up your skirts over your face; and I will make nations look at your nakedness and kingdoms at your shame. see Zeph 1-3 for more on this.
  18. The harlot

    Isaiah 1:21-26 How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers. (22) Your silver has become dross, your best wine mixed with water. (23) Your princes are rebels and companions of thieves. Everyone loves a bribe and runs after gifts. They do not bring justice to the fatherless, and the widow's cause does not come to them. (24) Therefore the Lord declares, the LORD of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel: “Ah, I will get relief from my enemies and avenge myself on my foes. (25) I will turn my hand against you and will smelt away your dross as with lye and remove all your alloy. (26) And I will restore your judges as at the first, and your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you shall be called the city of righteousness, the faithful city.”
  19. The harlot

    Lev 17:7 So they shall no more sacrifice their sacrifices to goat demons, after whom they whore. This shall be a statute forever for them throughout their generations.
  20. The harlot

    Numbers 25:1-3 While Israel lived in Shittim, the people began to whore with the daughters of Moab. (2) These invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. (3) So Israel yoked himself to Baal of Peor. And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.
  21. The harlot

    Numbers 15:37-40 The LORD said to Moses, (38) “Speak to the people of Israel, and tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a cord of blue on the tassel of each corner. (39) And it shall be a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commandments of the LORD, to do them, not to follow after your own heart and your own eyes, which you are inclined to whore after. (40) So you shall remember and do all my commandments, and be holy to your God.
  22. The harlot

    "come out of her my people." 1 Corinthians 6:15-16 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! (16) Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”
  23. The harlot

    · Micah 1:3-9 For behold, the LORD is coming out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. (4) And the mountains will melt under him, and the valleys will split open, like wax before the fire, like waters poured down a steep place. (5) All this is for the transgression of Jacob and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? Is it not Samaria? And what is the high place of Judah? Is it not Jerusalem? (6) Therefore I will make Samaria a heap in the open country, a place for planting vineyards, and I will pour down her stones into the valley and uncover her foundations. (7) All her carved images shall be beaten to pieces, all her wages shall be burned with fire, and all her idols I will lay waste, for from the fee of a prostitute she gathered them, and to the fee of a prostitute they shall return. (8) For this I will lament and wail; I will go stripped and naked; I will make lamentation like the jackals, and mourning like the ostriches. (9) For her wound is incurable, and it has come to Judah; it has reached to the gate of my people, to Jerusalem.
  24. The harlot

    · Ezekiel 6:1-14 The word of the LORD came to me: (2) “Son of man, set your face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them, (3) and say, You mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains and the hills, to the ravines and the valleys: Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places. (4) Your altars shall become desolate, and your incense altars shall be broken, and I will cast down your slain before your idols. (5) And I will lay the dead bodies of the people of Israel before their idols, and I will scatter your bones around your altars. (6) Wherever you dwell, the cities shall be waste and the high places ruined, so that your altars will be waste and ruined, your idols broken and destroyed, your incense altars cut down, and your works wiped out. (7) And the slain shall fall in your midst, and you shall know that I am the LORD. (8) “Yet I will leave some of you alive. When you have among the nations some who escape the sword, and when you are scattered through the countries, (9) then those of you who escape will remember me among the nations where they are carried captive, how I have been broken over their whoring heart that has departed from me and over their eyes that go whoring after their idols. And they will be loathsome in their own sight for the evils that they have committed, for all their abominations. (10) And they shall know that I am the LORD. I have not said in vain that I would do this evil to them.” (11) Thus says the Lord GOD: “Clap your hands and stamp your foot and say, Alas, because of all the evil abominations of the house of Israel, for they shall fall by the sword, by famine, and by pestilence. (12) He who is far off shall die of pestilence, and he who is near shall fall by the sword, and he who is left and is preserved shall die of famine. Thus I will spend my fury upon them. (13) And you shall know that I am the LORD, when their slain lie among their idols around their altars, on every high hill, on all the mountaintops, under every green tree, and under every leafy oak, wherever they offered pleasing aroma to all their idols. (14) And I will stretch out my hand against them and make the land desolate and waste, in all their dwelling places, from the wilderness to Riblah. Then they will know that I am the LORD.”
  25. The harlot

    · Jeremiah 2:1-37 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, (2) “Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the LORD, “I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, how you followed me in the wilderness, in a land not sown. (3) Israel was holy to the LORD, the firstfruits of his harvest. All who ate of it incurred guilt; disaster came upon them, declares the LORD.” (4) Hear the word of the LORD, O house of Jacob, and all the clans of the house of Israel. (5) Thus says the LORD: “What wrong did your fathers find in me that they went far from me, and went after worthlessness, and became worthless? (6) They did not say, ‘Where is the LORD who brought us up from the land of Egypt, who led us in the wilderness, in a land of deserts and pits, in a land of drought and deep darkness, in a land that none passes through, where no man dwells?’ (7) And I brought you into a plentiful land to enjoy its fruits and its good things. But when you came in, you defiled my land and made my heritage an abomination. (8) The priests did not say, ‘Where is the LORD?’ Those who handle the law did not know me; the shepherds transgressed against me; the prophets prophesied by Baal and went after things that do not profit. (9) “Therefore I still contend with you, declares the LORD, and with your children's children I will contend. (10) For cross to the coasts of Cyprus and see, or send to Kedar and examine with care; see if there has been such a thing. (11) Has a nation changed its gods, even though they are no gods? But my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit. (12) Be appalled, O heavens, at this; be shocked, be utterly desolate, declares the LORD, (13) for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water. (14) “Is Israel a slave? Is he a homeborn servant? Why then has he become a prey? (15) The lions have roared against him; they have roared loudly. They have made his land a waste; his cities are in ruins, without inhabitant. (16) Moreover, the men of Memphis and Tahpanhes have shaved the crown of your head. (17) Have you not brought this upon yourself by forsaking the LORD your God, when he led you in the way? (18) And now what do you gain by going to Egypt to drink the waters of the Nile? Or what do you gain by going to Assyria to drink the waters of the Euphrates? (19) Your evil will chastise you, and your apostasy will reprove you. Know and see that it is evil and bitter for you to forsake the LORD your God; the fear of me is not in you, declares the Lord GOD of hosts. (20) “For long ago I broke your yoke and burst your bonds; but you said, ‘I will not serve.’ Yes, on every high hill and under every green tree you bowed down like a whore. (21) Yet I planted you a choice vine, wholly of pure seed. How then have you turned degenerate and become a wild vine? (22) Though you wash yourself with lye and use much soap, the stain of your guilt is still before me, declares the Lord GOD. (23) How can you say, ‘I am not unclean, I have not gone after the Baals’? Look at your way in the valley; know what you have done— a restless young camel running here and there, (24) a wild donkey used to the wilderness, in her heat sniffing the wind! Who can restrain her lust? None who seek her need weary themselves; in her month they will find her. (25) Keep your feet from going unshod and your throat from thirst. But you said, ‘It is hopeless, for I have loved foreigners, and after them I will go.’ (26) “As a thief is shamed when caught, so the house of Israel shall be shamed: they, their kings, their officials, their priests, and their prophets, (27) who say to a tree, ‘You are my father,’ and to a stone, ‘You gave me birth.’ For they have turned their back to me, and not their face. But in the time of their trouble they say, ‘Arise and save us!’ (28) But where are your gods that you made for yourself? Let them arise, if they can save you, in your time of trouble; for as many as your cities are your gods, O Judah. (29) “Why do you contend with me? You have all transgressed against me, declares the LORD. (30) In vain have I struck your children; they took no correction; your own sword devoured your prophets like a ravening lion. (31) And you, O generation, behold the word of the LORD. Have I been a wilderness to Israel, or a land of thick darkness? Why then do my people say, ‘We are free, we will come no more to you’? (32) Can a virgin forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? Yet my people have forgotten me days without number. (33) “How well you direct your course to seek love! So that even to wicked women you have taught your ways. (34) Also on your skirts is found the lifeblood of the guiltless poor; you did not find them breaking in. Yet in spite of all these things (35) you say, ‘I am innocent; surely his anger has turned from me.’ Behold, I will bring you to judgment for saying, ‘I have not sinned.’ (36) How much you go about, changing your way! You shall be put to shame by Egypt as you were put to shame by Assyria. (37) From it too you will come away with your hands on your head, for the LORD has rejected those in whom you trust, and you will not prosper by them.