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TrevorL

Non-Trinitarian
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Everything posted by TrevorL

  1. Greetings again leah777, No, but if you read my posts you will find that I believe that there is one God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a man, the Son of God. Jesus, still a man, but now glorified and made immortal is now seated at the right hand of God the Father, in God the Father’s Throne Psalm 110:1. I am waiting for the return of Jesus to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth, not heaven going and we could well be in the beginning of the time of trouble. Kind regards Trevor
  2. Greetings leah777, David 1701 was asking if I was a JW, and I answered him no and mentioned a few differences between my personal belief and the JWs ideas. In the process I did not disclose exactly who I am in fellowship with, but nevertheless I was using the expression “we” to indicate my fellowship and the teachings that we share. I belong to a lay movement and in my region in NSW Australia there are 8 meetings in fellowship. We have visiting speakers from some of these meetings and sometimes from further afield. I was not quoting from anywhere, but expressing my beliefs and the beliefs of my fellowship in brief terms. Kind regards Trevor
  3. Greetings again David1701, I have already responded to this. I suggest that this is a shallow assessment as it bypasses the real teaching concerning our Lord Jesus Christ as The Son of God, for example John 10:30-36 where their accusation is compared with Jesus' claim. I am happy to leave our discussion as I have given a brief overview of my perspective. Kind regards Trevor
  4. Greetings again David1701, No, I have many disagreements with JW teaching on many of their views. I prefer to discuss one subject at a time, referring to one Scripture at a time, and thus gradually we can grow in fellowship, or part ways, as seems to be the result of our discussion. Regarding this subject, the JWs teach the pre-existence of Jesus, usually as Michael the Archangel, while most Catholics and Protestants (is this your definition of “Christian”? with a multitude of conflicting opinions on most subjects) teach the pre-existence of Jesus as God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. I believe that Jesus did not pre-exist, but the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the father and Mary the mother, gave birth to Jesus, the Son of God by means of the power of the Holy Spirit, and as such Jesus was a man Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14 and another title He is the Son of Man, which starts with son of Adam Psalm 8:4, 80:17. As such he was also descended from Adam, partaking of Adam’s fallen nature so that he could overcome sin in all its effects Genesis 3:15,19, and open the way for us from sin and death through forgiveness as our representative Romans 3:19-21, 6:1-8, 8:3, Hebrews 2:14, not as our substitute. We claim that what we believe represents the faith that Jesus and the Apostles taught and is different to both JW and your supposed “Christian” teaching. We differ with JWs and your “Christians” on many aspects of the true Gospel Romans 1:1-4,16-17, Galatians 3:8,16,26-29, which is summarised as the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ and baptism Acts 8:5-6,12, 28:30-31. We believe that Jesus will return and sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years, with the faithful of the past 6000 years as his immortal king-priests ruling over converted Israel with mortal subjects as the first dominion, and over the nations also subjected and learning the ways of God Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21. JWs and not many of your “Christians” will agree with this belief. JWs wipe out all the nations and preserve only JWs on the earth, having sent 144,000 to heaven while most of your “Christians” have over ten different conflicting opinions, and really only believe in going to heaven at death, and God torturing the rest of humanity in hell for eternity. They disagree on what is “the Kingdom of God”. Kind regards Trevor
  5. Greetings again David1701, I appreciate the information about the VW Bible. I will look into this. I also appreciate the mention of the other Bibles, and I have not heard of any of these. I am a hoarder collector, but I do not usually buy new books because of the cost. I visit the various second hand bookshops and attend book sales, and as a result have accumulated a large library, but not thorough. I have recently purchased new print editions of the translations of the Psalms by Robert Alter and Isaiah and the Psalms by Alec Motyer because of my special in the Psalms and Isaiah. These have some marginal notes and other comments. I prefer at least the distinction LORD and Lord, and have also spent some time distinguishing between Elohim and El, both usually translated as God. What is important is to allow the Scriptures speak clearly in some important contexts. I appreciate your perspective, but have considered this over many years and some discussions on other forums. I was brought up in an environment that teaches that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the Son of God by birth, by his moral character, and by the resurrection from the dead. I accept that 1 Timothy 3:16 teaches that God was revealed in and through Jesus, and this is an extension of my understanding that Yahweh would “become”, or in other words He would be a Father. The ultimate purpose of God is that He will be All in All. I understand Jesus is Lord Psalm 110:1, not LORD (Yahweh), and Jesus is God because He represents God in a similar yet greater way than the Angels and Judges who were also addressed as “God” that is OT Elohim John 10:30-36, Psalm 8:4-6. Kind regards Trevor
  6. Greetings again David1701, I appreciate your participation, but I do not consider what I stated in my last post simply as a repetition. I was disappointed that you did not answer my questions about the VW translation, and if anyone on the forum has a copy I would be interested, and also the question if this translation is a general translation, or a translation supported by or supporting a small group with a particular view. I am the librarian for our meeting, and we have a reasonable lending and reference library, but I also have a strong interest in Bible books, both expositional and reference, and have a large personal collection in print and electronic. As far as my mention of “Jehovah” being incorrect, I recommend the introduction to Rotherham’s translation, and the fact that there are two forms of the YHWH Name in the Hebrew Bible, one with the vowel points for Elohim, the other for Adonai. I appreciate your continuing concern for my spiritual welfare. I would like to continue and conclude if no one else takes up your cause by explaining the further development of the Yahweh Name. This is a subject that I have been interested in over many years, and was first introduced to this in a formal way at a Young People’s Weekend in the Southern Highlands of NSW Australia when I was 19 years old. When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remained the same, but the particular activity had been accomplished: Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” had been accomplished in the initial deliverance of Israel out of Egypt, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation. The initial fulfillment was not the ultimate completion of the Yahweh Name. God’s purpose with the earth was not complete with the salvation of Israel out of Egypt. God’s purpose was declared in the following, but sadly this was spoken at a time when the very generation that had been born through God”s deliverance failed. Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD. The above raises the question as to how and when will the earth be filled with the glory of God. One indication is found when the Psalmist uses the same words as Moses’ Song to speak of another deliverance: Psalm 118:14-25 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’s doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. The above is quoted at length to show that there was to be a greater salvation in fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. It is evident from the context that this salvation is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the man of God’s right hand, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. The greater deliverance is revealed even in the conception and birth of the child: Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. The meaning of the name Jesus is revealed: “for he shall save his people from their sins”. Was Jesus to be an independent Saviour? No, the name Jesus incorporates the Yahweh Name, Je-sous, Jo-shua, or Yah-oshea. He was to be Yahweh’s Salvation. Here then is the extension or fulfillment of the Yahweh Name, Yahweh was to be, to become. He was to “become salvation” Exodus 15:2, in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour. In other words Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yahweh has become salvation. Salvation is now offered in the Name of Jesus Christ: Acts 4:10-12 (KJV): 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. The subject of God’s Name has many other aspects, but I suggest the more we understand some of these aspects, the more we realise that the spelling and pronunciation of the Name, while important, is not as important as understanding the Name. Here are a few examples of other aspects: Psalm 9:10 (KJV): And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee. John 12:27–28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The reason why we do not encounter the Name Yahweh extensively in the NT is that the expression “God the Father” teaches the same as “Yahweh”, that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was going to be active to achieve His purpose of salvation, and to accomplish this He gave birth to a Son, Jesus the Son of God Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, to reveal God’s character, he was full of grace and truth John 1:14 and manifest the Father’s Name John 17:6, Romans 1:1-4. Kind regards Trevor
  7. Greetings again David1701, I suggest that “I am he” and “I am” are two different ideas in English, especially when the second is used to claim that Jesus is quoting and alluding to Exodus 3:14. The “he” is not added by the translators, but is necessary in some contexts, including the occurrence with the blind man. The fact that most except VW and possibly a few other Trinitarians add “he” to John 8:24 and 8:28 should be sufficient to indicate that John 8:58 can also be translated this way. I doubt that Jesus used this expression in two different ways in the same context. Actually I did a search for your VW translation to check if the VW translation of John 8:28 has “I am he” or “I AM”, but I could not find an electronic copy. Your use of the word “Jehovah” indicates to me that you have not properly looked at this subject, as “Jehovah” is a faulty representation of the YHWH Name. Does the VW translation preserve the Trinitarian KJV of 1 John 5:7? I thought that this would give a clue as to how Trinitarian biased was your obscure new VW translation. Could you check the VW rendition of the following: John 9:9 (KJV): Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. Each language has its unique features, and a literal translation does not necessarily make sense or convey the correct meaning in English for a particular context. While your two literal translations do not have the he, the Young's LT has “I am he”. Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you. The above is Tyndale’s rendition and the RV margin has “Or, I Will Be That I Will Be”, and the RSV margin has “Or, I Will Be What I Will Be”. This indicates that not only Tyndale considered “I wilbe” as the correct translation, but to my assessment some on the translating committees of the RV and RSV considered “I will be” to be correct, but could not sway the majority biased Trinitarian members. Many modern scholars support the future tense rendition. The word “ehyeh” in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense: Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity. I notice that you did not start with Exodus 3:12 which speaks of the fact that God was going to be with Moses to help deliver Israel out of Egypt. When the first few miracles did not seem to be successful, and Moses was almost rejected, God revealed that He would accomplish His purpose and that this purpose was associated with the YHWH Name. Abraham knew that God existed, but God had revealed His Name to Moses, and God would deliver Israel, and the future tense of the YHWH Name is associated with this: Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD. If the LXX is a translation of the Hebrew, then it is a poor or incorrect translation, and it was made say 1000 years after Moses. Why do you search for support from obscure and doubtful translations? Are the worms going to eat away at the immortal souls for eternity? I once attended a Baptist meeting and the red-haired speaker became red-faced threatening us with burning in hell for eternity. I believe that those rejected at the return of Jesus will suffer the second death, returning to the dust after some fiery judgements and tribulation. Kind regards Trevor
  8. Greetings again David1701, You are avoiding what the word is actually saying. It either means “I am he”, that is “He is who He says He is”, that is what He claimed in John 8:24,28 and before, that is the Christ, the Son of God, or He is saying “I AM”, that is the “I AM” of Exodus 3:14, thus proclaiming to the audience that He is God Eternal, existing from before Abraham. Even though He had told Peter not to openly disclose that He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, you really want me to swallow that Jesus is really claiming here and proclaiming to be God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. No, it is not more literal. The VW translation of John 8:24 is wrong. The KJV John 8:58 rendition is only a possible interpretation based upon their Trinitarian bias, and using your expression, the really “sad” thing about the KJV on this subject is that they translated “Ehyeh” in Exodus 3:14 as “I AM” instead of “I will be” as per Exodus 3:12 and as per Tyndale. As they did with “Congregation” to “Church”, they altered Tyndale’s translation which was a correct translation. Yes God exists, but God was telling Moses and Israel that He would be active in delivering Israel out of Egyptian bondage and would bring them into the Land. There is no such evidence that there was a Jewish acceptance of the Trinitarian version of Exodus 3:14 as “I AM”. It may have occurred in the Early Church fathers, or a translation before the KJV, but Tyndale did not recognise this version of Exodus 3:14, and he was true to the correct rendition of a future tense and its context. I reject that "I AM" is the correct translation of Exodus 3:14. Exodus 3:6 gives the present tense from the Hebrew "I am". Moses had already witnessed the existence of God by the appearance of the Angel in the burning bush, but now God is instructing Moses about the fact that He would be with him to deliver Israel out of Egypt. I appreciate your concern for my spiritual wellbeing, and despite your ready denunciation to call me a heretic, and label my understanding as religious deception, and threatening me with hell (fire) as "hell" is the grave where Jesus slept for three days, (now you will really send me to hell), I have examined this question carefully, and especially the various “I am” occurrences in John’s Gospel, and the rendition of “Ehyeh” in Exodus 3:14. . Kind regards Trevor
  9. Greetings again David1701, I was a bit intimidated when you made your first response to me quoting John 8:23,24 and John 8:58. I felt that you were almost threatening me, that unless I believed that Jesus was saying in John 8:24 that I would perish unless I accepted that Jesus was God, God the Son, the Second person of the Trinity, the Great I AM. But I suggest that Jesus is saying nothing of the sort, and even John states the following: John 20:31 (KJV): But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Even this is not a threat but an encouragement, that if we carefully consider what Jesus spoke, and what John recorded, then we will discover that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and thus believing we will have life through his name. I have only noticed now that you were quoting a translation labelled “VW”, and I am not sure what this abbreviation represents, except perhaps here it is not a German car maker. Did you have to search far and wide to find a translation that suited your interpretation of John 8:24? I did a quick check of other well- known translations, and I could not find any that agreed with your “VW” rendition. The following agree with the KJV “I am he” or simply “I am he”: ESV, NASB, NRSV, NKJV, HCSB, LEB, NET, NCV, ISV, RSV, RV, ASV, Darby, YLT. A few others give the same sense, NIV: “I am the one that I claim to be” and the Message “I am who I say I am”. None of these support your perspective. I suggest that your foray into Greek seems to call in question all the scholars who contributed to the above translations, even though many of them were Trinitarians. The same word occurs in the following, and the blind man is not claiming to be the “I AM”: John 9:9 (KJV): Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. I understand John 8:58 as Jesus continuing the theme that he is the Christ the Son of God, and that he was in the plan and purpose of God before Abraham appeared upon the scene. For example he is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15. I would therefore be happy to render John 8:58: John 8:58 (KJV adapted by TL): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he. Kind regards Trevor
  10. Greetings Roar and David1701, I was a bit overwhelmed by the amount of material you referenced. I had a browse at the first five recommended articles, but again these contained too much matter to properly consider. These were: Sam Schlorff's quick answer, The Trinity and you James Arlandson's article A Brief Explanation of the Trinity John Gilchrist's chapter on The Doctrine of the Trinity Mr. Anderson's booklet The Trinity Ernest Hahn's essay Our Savior God, How Great You Are! — Introducing the Muslim to the Christian Doctrine of the Holy Trinity I decided to only give a brief response to David1701’s post as I assess that what he has stated is typical of the Trinitarian position. There are a number of problems with this part of your response. Firstly, I notice that you did not quote from the second occurrence of “I am” or rather in this passage “I am he”. John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. Please note that even the KJV translators distinguish between John 8:24 and John 8:28 by comparison with John 8:58. In other words their rendition of “I am he” indicates that they do not consider that these two passages are a direct link with Exodus 3:14. A brief consideration of John 8:28 clearly indicates that Jesus is not claiming to be Deity in this passage. He states that he is dependent upon His Father. Secondly you say that Jesus is the great I AM of the OT (Jehovah). I believe that the correct translation of Exodus 3:14 is “I will be” as per Tyndale’s translation and the RV and RSV margins and hence there is no direct reference in John 8:58 to Exodus 3:14. Jesus is definitely our Lord and the distinction between LORD (Yahweh) and Lord is clearly shown in Psalm 110:1. The title God is given to those who represent God, and is also used for the Angels and Judges. You were careful not to quote the next verses, and this shows what John claims to be the purpose of his Gospel record: John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jesus is not God (in the English sense of the word), or God the Son, but he is the Son of God. Yes, Jesus fully revealed God His Father. Kind regards Trevor
  11. Greetings Worship Warriors, I have had a quick read of all the posts so far. None of them convince me that there is a Trinity and I am in fellowship with some ex-Muslims who found the transition to a belief in Christ much easier than your problem. I am not sure if I am allowed to answer some of the posts here as some of the posts are rather inadequate, but this has been discussed numerous times. I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is seated at the right hand of God Psalm 110:1, soon to return to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth. Kind regards Trevor
  12. Greetings again David Marsh, In John 10:30-36 Jesus answered their charge of blasphemy. Why do align your view with their assessment, which he rejected? He did not agree with their assessment that he was God. He answered them with a number of concepts including that the Judges were called “gods or Elohim” and summarised by saying that he was the Son of God. Saying that He and His Father are one, is equated with saying that He is the Son of God, not what Trinitarians claim. John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Kind regards Trevor
  13. Greetings again Ervin P, I suggest that the expression in Greek “I am” is part of the theme in John’s Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. The same expression in John 8:58 translated as “I AM” is the same Greek expression in John 8:24,28 translated in the KJV as “I am he”. John 8:24–28 (KJV): 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. The second occurrence above clearly shows that Jesus was not claiming to be Deity, and throughout here he also calls himself “the Son of man”. To remove some of the difficulty or ambiguity regarding this Greek expression, this same expression is used by the blind man showing that the English addition of “he” helps in understanding the Greek. John 9:8–11 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. 10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened? 11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight. I previously posted Tyndale's translation of Exodus 3:14 and this shows that there is no direct connection between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58. Kind regards Trevor.
  14. Greetings again Daniel, I appreciate the endorsement, but I will be interested to see if others disagree with what I have presented. Most of it is quoting appropriate Scriptures in their proper context. I suggest that the original article that you posted had evidence that they had seen a similar exposition as I presented and what he said in his article is his arguments against the perspective that Judges were called Elohim. I also suggest that if you accept the view that I presented, then this could have a bearing on the understanding of John 10:30-36 where Jesus denies that he is God and affirms that he is The Son of God. The view presented by your article is the method used to avoid the simple and clear teaching of John 10:30-36. Another portion of the article is attached, and I suggest that not only does he not understand the use of the Hebrew word Elohim as applied to the Judges, he is also incorrect in his explanation of the use of the word Elohim applied to the Angels. I have deleted a few of the item numbers below, and hence the numbering is different. I will not fully expound this as yet, but simply state that he is making the same mistake as he did with the Judges. The Judges were NOT gods, and neither are the Angels gods. But as with the Judges, the word Elohim IS USED for the Angels in Psalm 8:5 and again they are NOT gods, but represent God. All told there are a number of errors in this article above that you have initially endorsed. Kind regards Trevor
  15. Greetings again Justin Adams, I suggest that the Judges are called “Elohim” because they represented God in the Judgements that they were appointed to administer. You have quoted the ESV, but the question is how did they appear before God? God is in heaven, and yet they were told to take their servant to God. Where was this, the Tabernacle, or the Judges, who most probably were located throughout the Land. The following give some indication of how the Judges represented God. God was to be with them in the Judgement. Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour. Exodus 22:8–9 (ESV): 8 If the thief is not found, the owner of the house shall come near to God to show whether or not he has put his hand to his neighbor’s property. 9 For every breach of trust, whether it is for an ox, for a donkey, for a sheep, for a cloak, or for any kind of lost thing, of which one says, ‘This is it,’ the case of both parties shall come before God. The one whom God condemns shall pay double to his neighbor. Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV):Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it. 2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment. 1 Samuel 2:25 (KJV): If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them. Now I have quoted the ESV for Exodus 22:8-9 above, and it shows that God had to make a decision concerning the case of a thief. How did God achieve this, except for the decision of a Judge, who had received the Law, and was required to administer this without partiality? Psalm 82 is not speaking of cosmic things, but is speaking of Judges who failed in this responsibility. Psalm 82:2–4 (KJV): 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. And Jesus states that Psalm 82:6 is speaking about those who had received the Word of God. In other words they had been placed in a position of authority to administer the Law faithfully, and thus represent God. This is why they had received the title “Elohim” in Exodus 21:6, 22:8-9. John 10:34–35 (KJV): 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; In the cosmic battle are they using atomic warfare and ray guns, like a new episode of Star Wars? I believe that God the Father is Lord of heaven and earth Matthew 11:25. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I am glad you distinguish Jesus from Yahweh Psalm 110:1. Kind regards Trevor.
  16. Greetings again Justin, Yes, the Judges are called Elohim in Exodus 21:6. My understanding of Exodus 21:6, Psalm 82 and John 10:30-36 is that these are speaking about the Judges who represented God and were required to be faithful in administering the Law. Those in Psalm 82 were unfaithful, and I suggest that Jesus was using Psalm 82 to attempt to correct and even accuse the Sanhedrin in his day who also were attempting to arrest and judge him. Jesus is not fighting a cosmic war, but dealing with real people and real circumstances. Kind regards Trevor
  17. Greetings Justin Adams, I appreciate what you have stated and I understand that the view that you present is reasonably popular, and is given as an alternative to the second view that the Judges were called Elohim because they represented God. I accept this second view and I believe that this view coupled with the words of Jesus in John 10:30-36 is an important key to understand the whole subject of the use of the word “Elohim” and God in both the OT and NT. Moses represented God to Pharaoh and the word Elohim is used, and the word “Elohim” is used for the Angels in Psalm 8:5, and in other instances the word “Elohim” is used for the Angels when they acted and spoke on God’s behalf. Kind regards Trevor
  18. Greetings Daniel, I suggest for a start that the above does NOT understand the use of the word Elohim, usually translated “God”. The Judges were called “Elohim” because they represented God and were appointed by God to judge according to the word of God. The above avoids this obvious teaching.
  19. Greetings FresnoJoe, I appreciate the link to the changed JW beliefs. Yes they have made many errors and they still preach many errors. I am not a JW. I was also appreciative of reading your detailed comments on the side in the “interests” panel, and accept the sincerity of what you are trying to achieve. I notice in your response that you stated Jesus is LORD. I believe that God the Father is LORD, that is Yahweh, (this is also proof that I am not a JW as they insist on the erroneous form “Jehovah”), and Jesus the Son of God is David’s and my Lord, the Son of God, now seated at the right hand of God Psalm 110:1. The KJV is careful to distinguish where possible between Yahweh and Lord, even in the NT when quoting Psalm 110:1 immediately before Peter declaring that Jesus is now Lord and Christ Acts 2:34-36. God has made Jesus “Lord”. Kind regards Trevor
  20. Greetings Ervin, I would rather state the basis of my belief in the One God, not three, or three in one. I believe that there is one God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. When I consider the Scriptural revelation concerning God I firstly consider Exodus 3:14 where God reveals His Name and I understand this using Tyndale’s translation that God states “I will be” or as he spells it “I wilbe”, not as the KJV “I AM”. Exodus 3:12–14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you. I understand this to teach that the One God the Father will be active in achieving deliverance of Israel out of Egypt, He will become their salvation. This deliverance is typical of the future salvation that would be accomplished in Jesus, the true Passover Lamb, who would take away the sin of the world. The Yahweh Name is incorporated in the Name Jesus, Yah-Oshea, Yah’s Salvation. Jesus was born by means of the power of God, the Holy Spirit, and as such he is the Son of God, because Mary is his mother, and God the Father is his father. He was born a human. Matthew 1:18–21 (KJV): 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Luke 1:28–35 (KJV): 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. In the above it states that God will give Jesus the Throne of David. After his death and resurrection, Jesus was exalted to sit at the right hand of God the Father in heaven, and we await for his return when Jesus will establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth and sit upon the Throne of David. Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Kind regards Trevor
  21. Greetings again Retrobyter, Not sure if you are making a distinction here, but see below. I believe that the One Gospel, with expanded details as time progressed, for example the addition of the promises to Abraham and David, and the death and resurrection of Jesus, has been preached from Eden, and by Jesus and the Apostles, both to Jews and Gentiles. Romans 1:16-17 is an introduction to the theme of the Book of Romans, and also Romans 1:1-4 also introduces this One Gospel. One summary of this One Gospel is “the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ”, and both Philip and Paul preached this to the Samaritans, Jews and Gentiles: Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Acts 28:23–24,28-31 (KJV): 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him. Kind regards Trevor
  22. Greetings Retrobyter and Eddy Crocker, I have addressed my answer also to Eddy as he has resuscitated a 2 year old thread and I am not sure if Retrobyter is still active, but I am only going to add a brief comment on the OP. Romans 1:16–17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16 seems to indicate that it is the Gospel that is the power of God. I could be wrong here, but I have previously considered the concept of “power” as being in the sense of motivating power. When we have an affectionate belief of the Gospel that has been preached, then we motivated to repent, to be baptised in identification with the death and resurrection of Jesus, from then on live the resurrected life, and patiently wait for the return of Jesus to raise and reward the faithful and establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. Yes, the power is derived from God, but part of the process is faith that leads to salvation. Kind regards Trevor
  23. Greetings Alive, I was interested in your OP on the Accordance Bible Software. This is the first time I have heard about this program and it looks very thorough. I use Windows and maybe Accordance was initially designed for Apple. I have been using a few programs, e-Sword and others, but I regularly use Logos 8. I started with NEBRL and this evolved into Libronix and now Logos version 8. I purchased many books some years ago at reasonable prices when they were available on CDs and access to these has been preserved throughout the program changes. The Logos 8 program is free but few books are free and some are too dear for my budget. I also have a large quantity of “in-house” books and magazines that run on Logos 8. As far as saving notes, these are automatically updated to the Logos site and are thus preserved. I enjoy making notes especially on a few favourite chapters, and when I hear or read additional aspects a new note or adjustment to an old note is easy and appears as a popup in the Bible text. The Edit feature on the Notes is much improved in the more recent versions of Logos than the earlier versions. I was able to transfer my notes from Libronix to Logos when it was replaced. If you have the Logos program on two computers, a PC and a Laptop, then when the Laptop is started when connected to the Internet the notes recently added to the Notes feature of the Logos 8 on the PC are automatically transferred to the Laptop. Kind regards Trevor
  24. Greetings Amigo42, I believe that the return of Jesus will be soon. I have browsed all the posts but cannot agree with most of these. I believe we are in the period of the 6th Vial, Revelation 16:12-16. Some of this may need more development and my personal perspective is that Russia will invade Turkey and establish itself in Constantinople. I also link this passage with Daniel 11:40-45. The current troubles between Syria and Turkey could precipitate this, but I am patient as this may settle down soon. It is during the period of the 6th Vial that Jesus returns to the faithful verse 15. The outcome of the return of Jesus is to establish his Kingdom on earth for 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4. Kind regards Trevor
  25. TrevorL

    Trinity

    Greetings again Walter Goraj jr, Your use of this doubtful passage is possible proof that your claim has no real substance and that you could not find any other real proof. The following is one of the introductory comments in Barnes’ Notes on 1 John 5:7: “There is no passage of the New Testament which has given rise to so much discussion in regard to its genuineness as this.” I will let you read the rest of his comments, and one online source is Bible Hub. There are other commentaries there as well, possibly on both sides of the fence. Now either it is genuine or not, and many Trinitarians claim it is not genuine, and as a result your original post using this passage is not proof positive, rather it is proof doubtful, or proof negative. I believe that this verse was deliberately added or accidently added when a marginal note by someone was added into the text by someone else. No, I do not believe in three beings as God, but one Being, God the Father, Yahweh as God. I stated that I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I also asked you to consider Psalm 110:1 and its many NT quotations and expositions. I do not know what view that you have of God in heaven, three Beings sitting upon the Throne side-by side. God the Holy Spirit seated on the left, God the Father sitting in the middle and God the Son, now a man also, seated at the right. My perspective is that God the Father is seated upon His Throne, Jesus, a human, a man, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection, has been invited to temporarily sit on God’s right hand, and the Holy Spirit is God’s power which He and Jesus send forth to accomplish God’s Will. Kind regards Trevor
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