Paradigm

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

To jump from how you interpret various symbolic meanings of the cross to saying there is nothing wrong with wearing a cross is a pretty big step in logic. Using that logic I could make the argument that any symbol in the Bible that may have positive meaning could be used in religious worship. The cross is also directly related to a curse in its symbolism. Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: However, most of the comments that I've seen thus far do not substantively have much to do with the subject of this thread. The thread asked if certain practices related to use of the cross is idolatry. The cross as a religious symbol is certainly found in many religions that predate Christianity. It was used in religious worship long before Christianity arrived on the seen in various pagan cultures. Would bowing down to a cross be acceptable to God, while bowing to a Buddha or another statue be idolatry? Can we bow to a Jesus statue, but not a Mary statue? That is the point I was showing with the gun. When we do the same behavior, yet replace the image with something else people suddenly see it as a practice opposed by the teachings of the Bible. Maybe some would be interested in defining idolatry from a Biblical viewpoint. Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.

It seems that you have chosen to respond ad hominem rather than substantively address my comments. You have not explained how my examples are erroneous. I don't think that I am likely to get a thoughtful and objective answer. I suspect the future responses will continue to avoid making logical arguments or quoting scriptures on the topic of images or idols.

I think my questions shine the light on the answer. Can any reasonable argument be made that my scenario of wearing a gun or singing about them would be wrong while at the same time justifying current practices related to the cross? I believe when we objectively consider the scenario of replacing the cross with most any other symbol of execution, it reveals much. It illustrates a great contrast with the practices of believers in the Bible.

I have often wondered how things may have unfolded if Messiah lived, died and was resurrected in our current time. If it turned out that he was executed in a different way such as a gun for example, would people wear gun symbols around their necks? Would they sings songs in their places of worship such as "How I love that old gun?" Would must every church have a gun symbol in a prominent place in their sanctuary? A few years ago the fad WWJD was everywhere. What if we were to ask ourselves questions such as what would Peter, John or Paul do? That could be a good starting point. For example, would those guys be wearing crosses? What holidays would they be celebrating? What would be their rest day? These questions can actually be answered pretty easily. Most people are more attached to their inherited customs and invested in their current cultural thinking than they are truly interested in truly finding out WWJD. For when we consider what he and his followers celebrated, ate, etc. most of what he would observe today would be unrecognizable? Not necessarily unrecognizable to the pagans though. Food for thought....

Hi Kenny, Very good and valid questions. Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Just because something has been acquired through legality or even force does not necessarily mean that there is full possession in that moment. The verse may indicate a legal proclamation rather than a material actuality in the earth realm. I think we also have to consider who's perspective and clock that we are seeing in various passages. For example we could ask this question, "What time zone is the Kingdom of Heaven on?" I live in the CST zone in the US, but not everyone else does. Currently it is 4:14 in my time, but in some zones 4:14 has not happened yet. It appears to me that it would be a mistake to assume that the heavenly clock is synchronized with the earth clock. I am reminded of Daniel and Gabriel's interaction. I think in addition to the subject of legality vs possession and time we also should bring another subject into the discussion. Although in this realm, the natural or material appears before the spiritual, that is from an earth perspective. 1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. However from a spiritual perspective spirit proceeds the natural or material things. For we see the Spirit of God in Gen 1:2 bringing things into form and know that the Word of God (A spiritual force) proceeds and creates the material. Stated another way form proceeds from and after essence. Here are a few verses that I thought about regarding the kingdom of God. I thought these might add some additional dimension and texture to the discussion. Thank you for bringing up this topic and your well thought out questions and comments. Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Luke 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you Luke 10:11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Hi Joline, Sorry you lost the post. That is a real drag. It's happened to me before too. I don't think the Ephesians passage is really dealing with just a lack of a proper priest although Gentiles would have been lacking that too. In part, by not all it relates to Gentiles being excluded by Jews for later in the passage it discussed the middle wall of partition being brought down. This wall of partition was actually a real wall that was erected. Josephus speaks about it. No where in scripture is there a commandment to build such a wall, but they did. In Messiah (Anointed One) that separate is eliminated. However, we should also realize that each side has its pros and cons. To the Sumaritan woman, Y'shua answers her question by stating: What you worship, you know not what. We know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. Again, Paul asked the question what profit does the Jew have. He answers by saying, much in every way for unto them were given the oracles of God. So the Gentiles were at a disadvantage in many ways, but through Messiah have the opportunity to be no longer aliens to the Commonwealth of Israel or the covenants of promise. There is one faith and that one faith establishes the Torah. Part of the purpose of the Messiah's death was to make the two ONE. Sorry this is so short, but my time has been pretty limited. Thanks again for your thoughtful posts and blessings to you as well. Keith

Hi Joline, Much of what you have stated I agree with. Keep in mind though passages such as Ephesians 2 that I quoted states that those who in times past were Gentiles were previously cut off and without hope. They were separated from the Commonwealth of Israel including the covenants of promise. In Messiah, the Gentile is no longer separated from the Commonwealth of Israel or the covenants for they have been grafted in. Romans 11 talks extensively about that topic. Yes, each covenant can be viewed distinctly and uniquely just as each color of the spectrum can. However, each of the colors together create an unified rainbow. The destination was never meant to be Sinai as important as it is. The destination was Zion. Yet the Torah shall go forth from Zion and the Word of YHVH from Jerusalem. The new/renewed covenant did not replace any covenant. One of the major distinctions is its form. For example, we can have H2O in several forms. The element is essentially the same, but it can be manifested in different forms. The new/renewed covenant was made with the House of Israel & Judah. Gentiles can become part of the covenants of promise by being grafted in. The new/renewed covenant puts God's laws inside being written upon hearts rather than stones or parchment. Ezekiel 16:24-29 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, (chukim) and ye shall keep my judgments, (mishpatim) and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. Jeremiah 31:31-34 31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. So we see that the new/renewed covenant is made with Judah and Israel. They are given a new heart and new spirit which will cause them to walk in God's statues and judgments and do them. They will desire to do them and be able to do them because they will be written upon hearts and minds on the inside. When this is fully accomplished there will be no need to teach others, for all will know YHVH. This covenant also reinforces inheriting the land.

No problem Joline and thanks to you as well. It is nice to actually work through some of these differences in a polite and civil way. It seems to be a rare occurrence these days. I appreciate your patience in trying to lay out your points clearly. Yes, it is probably fair to say that none of us have a complete understanding of much. We may understand aspects and not fully comprehend other important ones. I also appreciate your humility and honesty. Most people cannot seem to refrain from mischaracterizing a position that is different from the one they hold. I apologize if I have assumed anything incorrectly or misunderstood any of your points. I will try to explain more of where I am coming from. Although I recolonize that details and specifics are very important, it is my desire to see the full picture as accurately as I can. I do think that getting the full picture in proper proportion is more important normally than the tiny details. I try to see the scriptures as a unity. I believe that they are a beautiful, unified tapestry. I do not want to throw out or change any puzzle pieces to make them fit a predetermined picture that I may have. Therefore in my thinking, there cannot be contradictions. One verse cannot annul another verse. If I pluck out a verse or verses and use them to shoot down other verses, there is something lacking in my understanding and I am still seeing the scripture as a fragmentation of contradictory pieces. Psalms 105:6-11 6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. 7 He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth. 8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. 9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; 10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: 11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: Yes, we can see Passover even in Genesis 18-19. It is believed that Abraham's visitors appeared on Passover and Isaac was born the next Passover. It is a remembrance of God redeeming His people out of bondage through the hyssop (faith) in applying the blood of the lamb in accordance with his promise to Abraham. Ephesians 2:11-13 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. It is not just one covenant of promise that Gentiles were strangers to, but covenants. Of course Gentiles were grafted in from ancient times. We see a mixed multitude that came out of Egypt with Israel and became grafted into the tribes. The "new" covenant or brit chadesha is really the renewed covenant. Just as we do not have a brand new moon in the sky every month, but the same moon that has been renewed in its phases. The "renewed" covenant takes things to a deeper level. Rather than the Torah, commandments, judgements and ordinances being merely an objective reality on the outside, a new heart is given in which these things can be internalized enabling us to carry these things out as was intended in the first place. The new covenant is still not complete even yet in its totality. There has always been grace since the beginning, but there is no need for grace is there is no law. Again, sin is the transgression of the Torah/law and where there is no law sin is not imputed to man. We need grace because there is a standard. So, are we "under the law?" Not if we are "in Messiah" and "walk not according to the flesh, but the Spirit." If we abide in Messiah, we are not "under the law" for the torah/law is within us. Just as with Ezekiel and John, we have to take the objective truth of the scroll and eat it. The objective truth is to be worked out subjectively within us. Therefore it becomes written in the inward parts. If we abide in Messiah, we are no longer "under a school master." When we graduated from school, we were at that point no longer under our teachers. However, if we learned our lessons well, the information was internalized. We didn't suddenly throw out mathematics, reading and writing, those things became second nature for us. All of the information transmitted by the school master was internalized. Therefore we are no longer "under" them, but carry the truth of what was taught inside now. We can look at both the scriptures and history and see what the early believers practiced. We can also see when and how that changed and by who. We can either follow in the living examples of Y'shua and his followers and do what they did and avoid what they did not do or follow the precedents that were set later by Roman authorities. Currently Christianity as a whole follows the customs and practices of the latter and do not live as the Apostles did. It is my aim both see and live as the Apostles did. The Apostles did not participate in pagan practices and holidays. They kept the Biblical feasts and Sabbaths. Paul even told us a number of times to be followers of him even as he followed the Messiah. Therefore, I think it wise to do what they did rather than those who came later and established many of the doctrines and practices that have been inherited by most today. I hope that I have explained myself clear enough. Thanks again joline for your willingness to discuss these subjects in a calm and reasonable way. Shalom, Keith

Hi Joline, Yes, feel free to call me Keith. I understand about getting old too. It has become more difficult to read the small writing on ingredients and directions. If you want to just quote a sentence or paragraph, you can just click on the left side of your mouse and highlight whatever you want to quote. Then there should appear a small window that says "quote this." Just click on that menu. Took me a while to figure that out. Thanks for explaining more in your last post. I found it much more clear and understood better the points that you were trying to make. Regarding the 2 Peter passage, while I agree with some of what you stated there, when we look at that whole section it is not just talking about prophecy. The passage explains that a misunderstanding of the difficult things in Paul's epistles can lead to wickedness/lawlessness. That is not merely a lack of understanding regarding prophecy, but living life in a way that is in error based upon a misunderstanding of the difficult things in Paul's epistles. 2 Peter 3:15-17 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. Yes, there have been covenants and expansion of them from the beginning. The points that I made still stand. Not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the Torah until heaven and earth pass. Who ever breaks one of the least commandments and teaches others will be least in the kingdom, but whosoever keeps and teaches them shall be great in the kingdom. We cannot interpret Paul in a way that contradicts many of his pro-law statements and his own personal actions. Neither can we interpret him in a way that contradicts Y'shua, the other writers of the NT or the Tanakh. YHVH changes not. His Word endures forever and the Torah is part of His Word. In fact, the Torah is connected directly to the Messiah. Romans 10:5-8 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; Paul, the Pharisee of Pharisees that studied at the feet of Gamaliel and stated that he was blameless concerning the Torah and lived in a good conscience toward God quoted from Deut 30 in Romans 10. That passsage in Deut is speaking of the Torah and Paul connects it directly to the Messiah. He then quotes again the passage and says that it is the word of faith that we preach. Deuteronomy 30:10-14 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; That is how the Messiah and the Apostles proved what they were saying. They used the Tanakh. For as Y'shua said, if you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me. If you don't believe Moses (Torah), how will you believe my words? In Luke 16, the rich man wanted someone sent back from the dead to warn his five brothers. Abraham told him no. He said let them hear Moses and the prophets. Abraham further said that if they will not hear Moses (Torah) and the prophets, neither will they believe though one be raised from the dead. The message of the parable is clear. You cannot truly believe upon the one who rose after three days and three nights if you reject the testimony of Moses and the prophets. For Moses and the prophets spoke of the suffering of Messiah and his glory. But even if one believes that Paul taught against the Torah, should his words be given more weight that the words of Y'shua, the other Apostles, the Torah, the prophets and the writings? If we put the verses by Paul that sounds as if he is teaching against the Torah on one side of the scales and all of the verses from the rest of the Bible saying something different on the other side, how would they be tilted? If God said that something was to be done forever and Paul theoretically said something contradictory to that, who should we follow? The early followers of Y'shua, including Paul went to synagogue and the temple, they kept the festivals, kept Sabbath, etc. All of the early Bishops were Jewish until Hadrian the Roman Emperor put an end to it. After that the base was moved from Jerusalem to Rome and everything changed. Later Constantine solidified this new blend of paganism with their understandings of Paul and the rest is history. When we look at how the Apostles lived their lives and what they practiced and did not practice, it is at great odds with what we see today. Again, even if we look only at the NT, the way that things are defined there differs greatly from the typical understanding and practices today. Not one jot or tittle will pass from the Torah until heaven and earth pass away There is one faith. We do not make the Torah void through faith: God forbid, we establish the Torah. The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. This is the love of God that we keep his commandments and His commandments are not grevious. Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith he knows Him and keeps not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him truly is the love of God perfected. Hereby know we that we are in him. Whosoever sins transgresses also the Torah, for sin is the transgression of the Torah. Many will come to Y'shua on that day claiming various things, yet to many he will say depart from me you who work anomia torahlessness. Even when we look to the future, we see the Torah being the standard. For the Torah shall go out of Zion and the Word of YHVH from Jerusualem. The gospel is the everlasting gospel. It was preached to Abraham and the children of Israel. The Messiah was with the children of Israel in the wilderness. Yet some of them tempted the Messiah and were destroyed by serpents. Moses esteemed the suffering of Messiah greater than what Egypt had to offer. The church/ecclesia/kahal was in the wilderness. The prophets spoke by the spirit of Messiah which was in them. Paul did a Nazarite vow including offerings to prove that he kept the Torah and walked orderly and that all of the charges against him were false. He said to follow him as he follows the Messiah. Paul kept Sabbath, feasts, etc.

Hi Joline, You began your post by stating that you disagree. Like I said before, so that I am clear on precisely what you are disagreeing with it would be helpful if you tell me. For example: Paradigm said a,b & c and I disagree because of x, y & z. Most of my post was scripture. We do have to remember that there are things in Paul's epistles that are difficult to understand and those who are unlearned and unstable twist his writings to their own destruction as Peter said. 2 Peter 3:15-17 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. If people are unlearned in the Tanakh,(OT) which was the only scripture canonized in the 1st Century, they can be lead away into the error of (athesmos) wickedness/lawlessness. Paul said that there was but "one faith." The "one faith" that he spoke of established the Torah, rather than making it void. For the Torah is holy and good as Paul said. There was confusion even in the 1st Century regarding what Paul was teaching. In Acts 21 everyone was excited that there were thousands of Jews that believed and they were all zealous for the Torah. However, they were hearing rumors about Paul that were disturbing. In order to put the issue to rest once and for all, Paul took a Nazarite vow along with four others including sacrifices to show that people had misinformed regarding Paul and that the charges were "nothing." Paul's actions would prove to everyone that he kept the Torah and walked orderly despite what some misinformed people thought. We can't begin with a premise and use only Paul to establish it. Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees and blameless concerning the Torah. He said that we should follow him as he followed the Messiah. Paul kept Sabbath, Feasts, etc. Paul did not eat pork and keep pagan festivals. In order for the common view of Paul to be correct, it would mean that most of the scriptures would have to be wrong. We would have to rip out most of our Bible to make the modern interpretation fit. However, a proper interpretation is able to reconcile all of the scripture with Paul. If one cannot make their case without using Paul's words, it should be a sign of a major problem of interpretation. Y'shua said that man should live by every word that proceeded from the mouth of God. Is the Torah part of God's Word? If Paul's words don't square with that, there is a problem. Y'shua said that until heaven and earth passed away the smallest letter of the Torah would not pass away. Consider the immense volume of the scriptures both old and new we would have to dismiss in order to establish the doctrine that Paul taught against following the Torah. We have to take off the modern 21st century denominational filters and try to see the entirety of the scriptures in their cultural context. We can't just pick and choose what words from Paul we like and ignore the rest of his words and the rest of the scriptures. We can't just define words and concepts however we want. How does the NT define sin for example? Does the NT not define sin as the transgression of the Torah? Does not Paul say that true faith establishes the Torah? If there is no law, sin is not imputed to man. Therefore, there would be no need for grace. Grace is only only needed if there is a standard of righteousness. Why is it that YHVH would bless Isaac and perform the oath that He swore unto Abraham? Because Abraham obeyed His voice, kept His charge, mitzvot, (commandments) chukim (statutes) and torot. (laws) Genesis 26:1-5 26 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. We should also consider what James said regarding Abraham: Does what James's says harmonize with the way most interpret Paul? James 2:21-24 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. If you decide to respond and disagree with a point or points that I have made, please be clear and specific by saying exactly what statement or verse that I have quoted that you disagree with. Acts 24:14 But this I (Paul) confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Yeah, I thought a few of the questions were a little confusion. I missed two questions, but would not have if I had paid better attention.

I think that to an extent we see both pictures with Isaac. Genesis 17:19-20 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. Genesis 21:10-13 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. Genesis 25:1-6 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. 2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. 3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim. 4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah. 5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac. 6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

Hi. Yes, I'm Keith. Sorry, you through me when you mentioned a video on "Bo" because mostly we just have audios. That helps to clear things us some, so I'll know more of what you are referring to. I'm a little behind on uploading audios, but hopefully we will have some new ones up soon. Thanks for clarifying and also for listening.

Hi Joline, Believe it or not, I normally am not easily confused, but again I am not understanding what you are referring to. I don't know of a video on the portion "Bo" that I have available. I have audios that discuss that portion. Did you listen to an audio of me discussing "Bo?" I'm trying to understand what your posts are responding to. Are you just telling me about a video that you watched of someone else and thought I might be interested? Once I understand the answers to those questions, hopefully I'll better understand your basis and the relevance of your posts. Regarding some of what you have written, in the last couple of posts. Exodus 12:12-14 12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. 14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. 24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever. 25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the Lordwill give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service. 26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service? 27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the Lord's passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped. Easter is not Passover. Regarding firstborn status, as important as this is, the natural firstborn is not the one that ultimately inherits, but the spiritual. For as we read, the natural is first, then the spiritual. Here are some examples: Cain/Abel Ishmael/Isaac Esau/Jacob Reuben/Joseph Manasseh/Ephraim

Yes, that is the Greek name. The original being in the Hebrew "Pesach." I'm sorry, but I do not understand how your comments related to my post. You post seemed to be showing disagreement with a statement or statements that I had made. Perhaps you could quote my specific statement so I would know what statement of mine that you believe is erroneous. You could say: "You said such n such and these verses from scripture show that it is error." Or something like that. That way I could understand where you think that I misspoke and become more aware of particular Bible verses that are at odds with a particular statement i may have made. It has been quite a while since I had posted anything in this thread so my memory might be a little fuzzy.

More good questions Spiderman. Let me add a few more for consideration. How many sections or realms of the dead are there? How many parts of man are there, and do they all go to the same place upon death? Is Sheol/Hades everlasting?

That is a pretty involved question that brings up many other questions and issues. It gets into the nature of Messiah and Elohim. I think that Esther touched upon some of this issue. Messiah is the Word. 2,000 years ago the Word became flesh. However the Word was in the beginning. This same Word has appeared throughout history in various forms and manifestations and names. In the passage from Rev 19 that Esther mentioned, he had a name that no one knows and his name is called the Word of Elohim. Jews traditionally have embraced aspects of the Word (Devar, Memra, Logos) and Christians have embraced another aspect. All have pierced the Aleph-Tav Word in different ways. It is interesting throughout scripture and particularly in Revelation that the true believers have two major components. They keep the Commandments of Elohim and have the Testimony of Y'shua. For the most part there is one group who believes in keeping the commandments and another group that claims a testimony of a Messiah/Christ. The true believers have both components. Y'shua was asked a question about taxes. He asked them whose image was on the coin. When they responded by saying Caesar, he said give to Caesar what belongs to him and Elohim what is His. Y'shua was speaking of two different currencies. One form of currency bore Caesar's image. The other currency was speaking to them, for he was the express image of Elohim and would soon be the payment to Elohim for mankind. Let us imagine that we have a piece of holographic film with a face on it. What happens if we cut the film or plate in half? Or perhaps cut into a hundred pieces? Most would assume that we would have a destroyed image and fragments of different parts of the face image. However, no matter how many times we divide it, we still have a complete image. Every small piece contains all of the information of the whole. Messiah/Word is the express image of Elohim and we are suppose to be transformed into his image. At this time we do not see the image of Messiah in his fullness or totality. For it is written, in that day we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. There is a connection between seeing him as he is and becoming more like him. Again, the Word was in the beginning and appeared to many in the so-called OT. I have listed a number of scriptures from both the old and nt that shows the Holy Spirit being in people before the Word became flesh. As I said, humans tend to see the Bible and history on a linear time line. The blood of the Messiah is not confined to merely traveling forward since year zero. It would be just as easy to go forward or backward into time.

Very insightful Spiderman. You are obviously practicing objectivity. Most simply see through whatever lens that they have inherited. It takes time and practice to try to look at all of the evidence pro and con and see more of the big picture.

Well stated Serving.

I was responding to what Spiderman said. Which specific statement or statements that I made do you believe to be in error and why?

As humans and particularly as westerners, we tend to see time as static and linear. We are told in John that in the Beginning was the Word. We are also told that the "lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, yet manifested in these last days for us." It is true that no one comes to the Father except the son, yet this has always been true. It did not begin being true 2,000 years ago on a linear time line. The same rule applies to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Moses, etc. If the Messiah is the true light, could he not step into any point in history past or future. Looking at reality with the typical linear time line of history, does the Messiah's blood only travel forward on the timeline to redeem people? Would it not be just as easy for Messiah's blood to travel back 2,000 years as forward 2,000 years?

A few more to consider: Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, Exodus 35:31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship; Below the word "gods" is translated in the English as singular in almost all places. Daniel 4:8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my God, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying, Daniel 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof. Daniel 4:18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee. Daniel 5:11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of thegods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master ofthe magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers; Daniel 5:14 I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee.

That is a good question Spiderman. I think many times people have a knee jerk reaction and respond before thinking things through or searching out an answer. The scriptures below do not put the question to rest, but it is my hope to at least bring some balance to the issue. Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Hebrews 4:1-2 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Hebrews 11:24-26 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 1 Peter 1:10-11 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Corinthians 10:1-9 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Hi Your closest friendnt, The information below is on page 13 of the Book "The Witness of the Stars" by E.W. Bullinger: Coming down to less ancient records: Eudoxos, an astronomer of Cnidus (403 to 350 BC), wrote a work on Astronomy which he called Phainomena. Antigonus Gonatas, King of Macedonia (273-239 BC), requested the Poet Aratus to put the work of Eudoxus into the form of a poem, which he did about the year 270 BC. Aratus called his work Diosemeia (the Divine Signs). He was a native of Tarsus, and it is interesting for us to note that his poem was known to, and, indeed, must have been read by, the Apostle Paul, for he quotes it in his address at Athens on Mars's Hill. He says (Acts 17:28) "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Several translations of this poem have been made, both by Cicero and others, into Latin, and in recent times into English by E. Poste, J. Lamb, and others. The following is the opening from the translation of Robert Brown, jun.: "From Zeus we lead the strain; he whom mankind Ne'er leave unhymned: of Zeus all public ways, All haunts of men, are full; and full the sea, And harbours; and of Zeus all stand in need. We are his offspring: and he, ever good and mild to man, Gives favouring signs, and rouses us to toil. Calling to mind life's wants: when clods are best For plough and mattock: when the time is ripe For planting vines and sowing seeds, he tells, Since he himself hath fixed in heaven these signs, The stars dividing: and throughout the year Stars he provides to indicate to man The seasons' course, that all things duly grow," etc., etc.