Marcus O'Reillius

Oh really? (My last name: O'Reillius) The Olivet Discourse is addressed only to 1st century Israel? Then why is Jesus' audience the very nexus of the Church. Who needs more study? You should never let your eschatology determine your theology. The book of Matthew is centered around five major discourses by Jesus, and only the last one - where He answers when He will come again - doesn't pertain to us -- according to you. And according to you -- Matthew's use of "elect" for whom is gathered up - is not defined as it is everywhere else in the New Testament - and Matthew was probably written after the Jewish Disciples of Jesus saw that the Holy Spirit was opened up to Gentiles too, as it was in Antioch.

According to you but not according to what Jesus said in the Olivet Discouse.

What we have is a failure to communicate. As is so typical on these eschatology boards, there is more opinion spouted as fact, than real, reliable interpretation. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the one 'seven' as it is expressed by Gabriel to Daniel is called the "tribulation period." You can call it the "70th week" but I prefer how God conveyed it through His messenger to us. Jesus defines the beginning and the end of the "Great Tribulation" in the Olivet Discourse. The Great Tribulation starts with the (midpoint: Daniel 9:27) abomination of desolation. And the Great Tribulation ends with the Day of the Lord's signature sun/moon/star sign. The start is replicated in Revelation chapter 13, verses 14-17. With the talking image of the anti-Christ, the abomination, comes two laws that affect only believers who hold to God's Commandment not to worship the beast or take his mark. The end of that oppression against us comes with the Harvest of Revelation chapter 14. The fact that Jesus gives us the two events, one from Daniel and the other replicated in the sixth Seal, allows us to sequence the one 'seven' of Daniel 9:27 to the Seals. Jesus' sequencing of events places the Rapture as happening after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation.

I agree that Revelation 6:12-14 describes the Return of our Lord on the Day of the Lord. Movies are nice, but they're not real. It is not the Rapture of the Church exactly. That happens after the 144,000 are sealed. How about the moment that Christ Returns? The Wrath of God does not begin until a respectful period of silence when the Scroll, which contains the "desolations (which) have been decreed" (Daniel 9:26) are finally released when Jesus breaks the last Seal on the Scroll. Marrying this passage of Revelation to the one 'seven' of Daniel 9:27 is possible because Jesus gives us the sequence of events which happen to sequence the Day of the Lord to the one 'seven' in the Olivet Discourse. So, the Great Tribulation (not the "beginning of the tribulation") ENDS with the arrival of the Day of the Lord and the scrolling of the sky. In a parallel account to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11, the 144,000 again preceded the "harvesting" of the earth - which is another descriptive term for the Rapture. Agreed. This is the result of the Rapture, which is not described in this account within the book of Revelation. No. That's something keras would say. We await the formation of the fourth terrible beast first, then the start of the one 'seven'. Hint: when you see a Temple being built in Jerusalem, the one 'seven' has begun, and you can 'hack the clock' on when the midpoint abomination comes. The Great Tribulation, described coincidental to that in Revelation chapter 13:15-17, then begins. No one knows how long the Great Tribulation goes on, because no one knows when the Day of the Lord will begin. No, probably not. There is no earthly timeframe we can peg to the fifth Seal. It could be coincidental with the start of the Great Tribulation, its ongoing time, or right near the end of it. Again, the one 'seven' has not yet begun. And this whole nonsense of 20 years as an equation for the moment of silence in Heaven is just that: nonsense.

Ah no.

I disagree, and I will continue to disagree with you. We're kind-of done here 'I am Lamad'.

No - they were Disciples!

What kind of perverted question is that?

Oh yeah, a new class of people never mentioned in the Bible - "tribulation saints". Uh-huh. Yeah, right. No, I don't believe you or your take on this.

Is this more prophecy from you? Why don't we all become like children and just say it will all pan out in the end and become Pan-Millennials instead.

But Jesus is not talking to the "Jews" - the religious authorities of that time. Jesus is speaking to the Church. This discourse, is the fifth and final discourse of Matthew, who centers his Gospel around those discourses. All of them are relevant to us. We have a deep difference in opinion. Yours is necessitated by your eschatology.

To quote Top Gun: "Negative Ghostrider." That's your eschatology, not mine - nor is it consistent with the whole of end-time prophecy. From the second of two twin parallel accounts in chapter 12: Rev 12:16-17 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And from Rev chapters 13-16; the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' as appended to the broad overview of the Seals/Scroll account of Rev chapters 4-11: Rev 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them...

We have a difference of opinion there too. Well now you're starting your question off on your premise, which I have concluded after study, has no basis in Scripture. I also notice it includes the preposition "if" - and so I have to play along with your a priori and foregone conclusion. I would change your follow on to your faulty premise of a Pre-Trib Rapture that - The Church Age ends ON the Day of the Lord. And furthermore, the Day of the Lord, and its "Last Day" is not the last day of the one 'seven'. ____________________________ So restating your "what if" question - I will simply declare that the Rapture happens on the (first part of the) Day of the Lord in the second half of the one 'seven' at some unknown Day that only the Father knows. And everything I just stated is in accordance with Scripture. But I'm not going to play your "what if" game.

Furthermore: Jesus was talking to the Apostles: the nexus of the Church - the Elect. Jesus is answering their question, not as to when the Temple would be torn down (figuratively speaking of His body the next day, or literally speaking of the Temple in nearly four decades) - but when He would Return. Neither is the Olivet Discourse is in isolation. Jesus had just told them in John 14:3 that when He Returns: If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. We have reason to conclude that the gathering of the Church as the Elect will happen in verse Mt 24:31.

So in this one case, against all the other uses of "Elect" in the NT - it means something else than what it means everywhere else because if it does mean us, it spoils the whole eschatology of "Pre-Trib". And to believe this, you must accept the premise that Daniel is ONLY Jewish, and not part of the "Elect" who will be selected by God to be raised on the "Last Day" with the Saints. However, Daniel is no mere Jew that the seventy 'sevens' are only for the Jews.